335 réponses à ce sujet

[DirtyPhoenix]

BleedingUranium wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Holy hell, where are all these laws about fiction written down? I'd like to read them. the protagonist can never be wrong about the main point of the story? Play Spec Ops The Line and Assassins Creed III. Walker and Connor get played and end up as fools with nothing on their hands.

So you're saying that the main point to Mass Effect is that the Reapers were right all along?

I'm only saying there is no hard and fast "rule" that the protagonist always has to be right and the bad guys have to be wrong, not necessarily this to be a case in ME3.

Infact such such black-and-white portrayal makes for a very boring fiction imho.

Modifié par pirate1802, 17 janvier 2013 - 08:01 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Cerberus isn't really it's own thing, it's just the Reapers under a different name.

And that's exactly what I hate about this portrayal. Almost everything that is bad, is bad because the reapers. I'm surprised they didn't show the ME2 mercs, or the salarian dalatress to be indoctrinated too. A much interesting perspective (from my point of view) would have been to make Cerberus the antithesis of Alliance, but opposing the reapers in their own capacity (without being indoctrinated). I thought they were going in this direction after ME2, but neope. Cerberus haz to be evul becuz they oppose teh Alliance and Shepurd! And what better way to show them evil than making them indoctrinated? Problem solved!

Again, its very black-and-white. Shepard is always right, and those who oppose hi are always wrong. And in hindsight, indoctrinated, lolz.

[Indy_S]

pirate1802 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Holy hell, where are all these laws about fiction written down? I'd like to read them. the protagonist can never be wrong about the main point of the story? Play Spec Ops The Line and Assassins Creed III. Walker and Connor get played and end up as fools with nothing on their hands.

So you're saying that the main point to Mass Effect is that the Reapers were right all along?

I'm only saying there is no hard and fast "rule" that the protagonist always has to be right and the bad guys have to be wrong, not necessarily this to be a case in ME3.

Infact such such black-and-white portrayal makes for a very boring fiction imho.

It's true. Sauron wasn't the most interesting part of the Lord of the Rings. And Frodo trusted Gollum, believing he could get through to his good side. He was wrong.

[BleedingUranium]

Indy_S wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

Holy hell, where are all these laws about fiction written down? I'd like to read them. the protagonist can never be wrong about the main point of the story? Play Spec Ops The Line and Assassins Creed III. Walker and Connor get played and end up as fools with nothing on their hands.

So you're saying that the main point to Mass Effect is that the Reapers were right all along?

I'm only saying there is no hard and fast "rule" that the protagonist always has to be right and the bad guys have to be wrong, not necessarily this to be a case in ME3.

Infact such such black-and-white portrayal makes for a very boring fiction imho.

It's true. Sauron wasn't the most interesting part of the Lord of the Rings. And Frodo trusted Gollum, believing he could get through to his good side. He was wrong.

Exactly! Gollum is TIM, almost perfectly! TIM does have his own motivations, unfortunately they make him easy to manipulate.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 17 janvier 2013 - 08:18 .

[CosmicGnosis]

And yet, Frodo ultimately failed, and Gollum's accident destroyed the Ring. The moral of the story was that both Bilbo and Frodo were merciful to Gollum, and their mercy ultimately ensured that the quest was completed.

[BleedingUranium]

CosmicGnosis wrote...

And yet, Frodo ultimately failed, and Gollum's accident destroyed the Ring. The moral of the story was that both Bilbo and Frodo were merciful to Gollum, and their mercy ultimately ensured that the quest was completed.

Which is why I'm betting TIM will redeem himself by enabling the Reapers' destruction somehow, and die in the process of course. While Saren was so indoctrinated and under the Reapers' control that all he could manage was a few seconds to end himself, given that TIM is not as far gone I think he'll break for a little longer, and it will allow him to do something useful to end the Reapers.

It's the natural end to his character arc.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 17 janvier 2013 - 08:26 .

[Indy_S]

TIM may say his motives are complex but his actions betray him. Everything he does in ME3 is because he is indoctrinated. Everything. Gollum wants the Ring but his actions towards helping Frodo and Sam prove that it's not his only motivation. He respected Frodo for trying to get to his good side, even while trying to lure him to his death.

And TIM's not going to redeem himself through any action other than getting shot.

[Meltemph]

Indy_S wrote...

TIM may say his motives are complex but his actions betray him. Everything he does in ME3 is because he is indoctrinated. Everything. Gollum wants the Ring but his actions towards helping Frodo and Sam prove that it's not his only motivation. He respected Frodo for trying to get to his good side, even while trying to lure him to his death.

And TIM's not going to redeem himself through any action other than getting shot.

Tims actions, in terms of motivations are quite complex though.  Most everything he does in ME3 as spurred by the events in evolution, I beleive, and not by indoctrination.  I dont think it was until the end that he became truly controlled by the reapers.

[DirtyPhoenix]

It would have been interesting to see a non-indoctrinated TIM confront Shepard towards the end and question his actions.

[BleedingUranium]

pirate1802 wrote...

It would have been interesting to see a non-indoctrinated TIM confront Shepard towards the end and question his actions.

That would also make no sense.

[Indy_S]

How would that make no sense? Is that because he isn't in the ending at all?

[BleedingUranium]

How could he possibly not be indoctrinated at that point?

[DirtyPhoenix]

BleedingUranium wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

It would have been interesting to see a non-indoctrinated TIM confront Shepard towards the end and question his actions.

That would also make no sense.

Because no one will oppose Shepard or have a different idea about defeating dem reapers unless they are lolindoctrinated?

[Meltemph]

BleedingUranium wrote...

How could he possibly not be indoctrinated at that point?

I think he is talking about how if TIM wouldnt have dialed up the reapers to take the citadel, and instead was just there trying to do his own thing, and then Shep contronted him.

[BleedingUranium]

pirate1802 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

It would have been interesting to see a non-indoctrinated TIM confront Shepard towards the end and question his actions.

That would also make no sense.

Because no one will oppose Shepard or have a different idea about defeating dem reapers unless they are lolindoctrinated?

Yes.

Name me one ally that wanted something other than the destruction of the Reapers.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 17 janvier 2013 - 09:00 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

lol, I'm not arguing about destroy/control/synthesis. What you said is my number one gripe with the whole trilogy. Its childishly black-and-white.

[BleedingUranium]

pirate1802 wrote...

lol, I'm not arguing about destroy/control/synthesis. What you said is my number one gripe with the whole trilogy. Its childishly black-and-white.

So you don't have an actual complaint then. I don't like rap music, but I don't go telling people who like rap that rap sucks, which is exactly what you're doing.

[Indy_S]

Not so much the whole trilogy. The worst parts are during the third game. The only character you point your gun at that doesn't deserve it is the Virmire Survivor. They're standing up to you because they think you're about to destabilise the most important government. (Strange how nothing comes from that... You did kill him exactly like the VS thought)

We haven't made an actual complaint in over a page. We seem to be discussing the value of mind control as a source of motivation. It could be used well but reducing everything to a black-and-white world is not using it well.

Modifié par Indy_S, 17 janvier 2013 - 09:15 .

[Bill Casey]

Meltemph wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

TIM may say his motives are complex but his actions betray him. Everything he does in ME3 is because he is indoctrinated. Everything. Gollum wants the Ring but his actions towards helping Frodo and Sam prove that it's not his only motivation. He respected Frodo for trying to get to his good side, even while trying to lure him to his death.

And TIM's not going to redeem himself through any action other than getting shot.

Tims actions, in terms of motivations are quite complex though.  Most everything he does in ME3 as spurred by the events in evolution, I beleive, and not by indoctrination.  I dont think it was until the end that he became truly controlled by the reapers.

In Evolution, TIM was yelling at Desolas Arterius for his insane plan to use the Arca Monolith both as an evolutionary accelerator and as a means to control the Meta-Turians...

Basically it was never going to work, the technology is dangerous, it's more than an evolutionary jumpstart, etc...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 17 janvier 2013 - 09:14 .

[BleedingUranium]

Indy_S wrote...

Not so much the whole trilogy. The worst parts are during the third game. The only character you point your gun at that doesn't deserve it is the Virmire Survivor. They're standing up to you because they think you're about to destabilise the most important government. (Strange how nothing comes from that... You did kill him exactly like the VS thought)

We haven't made an actual complaint in over a page. We seem to be discussing the value of mind control as a source of motivation. It could be used well but reducing everything to a black-and-white world is not using it well.

To you. I don't see the conflict with the main villain being black-and-white as a bad thing.

There's a reason that it's like that in 3: the Reapers are here. Merc groups aren't going to fight each other for money, we fight the Reapers or we die, all of us together. Everyone capable of thinking for themselves will put aside rivalries and hates at least until the Reapers are dead, even people like Ka'hairal Balak. Because that's the smart thing to do.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 17 janvier 2013 - 09:21 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

BleedingUranium wrote...

pirate1802 wrote...

lol, I'm not arguing about destroy/control/synthesis. What you said is my number one gripe with the whole trilogy. Its childishly black-and-white.

So you don't have an actual complaint then. I don't like rap music, but I don't go telling people who like rap that rap sucks, which is exactly what you're doing.

I'm saying it sucks IMO, I'm sure I typed those three letters somewhere in my previous posts. And I don't consnider my view to be any more or less legitimate than yours, or anynonen else's. I put out my views here only because they were relevant. I don't go into the erstwhile IT thread to surmonize. Shepard wasn't indoctrinated because he is the great hero. His opponents are all indoctrinated because they are the bad guys. I-freaking-MO. Apologies if I appeared rude, I didnn't mean to.

Modifié par pirate1802, 17 janvier 2013 - 09:24 .

[dorktainian]

 doubters watch this right to the end.

that is all.

www.youtube.com/watch

[Indy_S]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Not so much the whole trilogy. The worst parts are during the third game. The only character you point your gun at that doesn't deserve it is the Virmire Survivor. They're standing up to you because they think you're about to destabilise the most important government. (Strange how nothing comes from that... You did kill him exactly like the VS thought)

We haven't made an actual complaint in over a page. We seem to be discussing the value of mind control as a source of motivation. It could be used well but reducing everything to a black-and-white world is not using it well.

To you. I don't see the conflict with the main villain being black-and-white as a bad thing.

There's a reason that it's like that in 3: the Reapers are here. Merc groups aren't going to fight each other for money, we fight the Reapers or we die, all of us together. Everyone capable of thinking for themselves will put aside rivalries and hates at least until the Reapers are dead, even people like Ka'hairal Balak. Because that's the smart thing to do.

Yes. To me.

And what if a group of people resented the fact that their colony was just going to be abandoned to the Reapers. They'd do everything in their power to make that change. If they could take a councillor hostage, they could get the military agree to defend their colony. That's all a hypothetical situation revolving around the conflict without introducing indoctrination or even having the Reapers play an active part.

What if the other species resent that we're fighting for Earth? What if somebody starts dramatically profiteering from the war by offering nothing but horrible 'safe haven' scams? Other conflicts can exist, in fact they're not that hard to think of. Black-and-white can work but adding depth to the situation is preferable.

[Indy_S]

dorktainian wrote...

 doubters watch this right to the end.

that is all.

www.youtube.com/watch

I'll admit I didn't watch more than a minute or so of text at the end but it seems to be 'IT makes the most sense'. I watched it and I still doubt. That is all.

[BleedingUranium]

Indy_S wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

Not so much the whole trilogy. The worst parts are during the third game. The only character you point your gun at that doesn't deserve it is the Virmire Survivor. They're standing up to you because they think you're about to destabilise the most important government. (Strange how nothing comes from that... You did kill him exactly like the VS thought)

We haven't made an actual complaint in over a page. We seem to be discussing the value of mind control as a source of motivation. It could be used well but reducing everything to a black-and-white world is not using it well.

To you. I don't see the conflict with the main villain being black-and-white as a bad thing.

There's a reason that it's like that in 3: the Reapers are here. Merc groups aren't going to fight each other for money, we fight the Reapers or we die, all of us together. Everyone capable of thinking for themselves will put aside rivalries and hates at least until the Reapers are dead, even people like Ka'hairal Balak. Because that's the smart thing to do.

Yes. To me.

And what if a group of people resented the fact that their colony was just going to be abandoned to the Reapers. They'd do everything in their power to make that change. If they could take a councillor hostage, they could get the military agree to defend their colony. That's all a hypothetical situation revolving around the conflict without introducing indoctrination or even having the Reapers play an active part.

What if the other species resent that we're fighting for Earth? What if somebody starts dramatically profiteering from the war by offering nothing but horrible 'safe haven' scams? Other conflicts can exist, in fact they're not that hard to think of. Black-and-white can work but adding depth to the situation is preferable.

Sure, and there was stuff like that.