352 réponses à ce sujet

[Mouton_Alpha]

Maxster_ wrote...

Well, that depends on how you take Vigil's words. Especially about reapers being trapped in dark space.
If you ignore his words - then there is no reason, and ME1 story makes no sense.
If reapers are indeed trapped in dark space(or can't fly into a galaxy without losses in full numbers), - then there is.
If there is Catalyst who controls reapers, who are just his pawns - then there is no reason.
If reapers can just fly into a galaxy in half a year losing completely nothing then there is no reason.

It doesn't make sense in any scenario, because the whole search for the Conduit makes no sense. Its only function is transport to the Citadel - it utterly ignores the fact that before Saren started looking for it, he was an active Spectre in good standing. He could have simply walked in into the control room. He could have infiltrated  the Citadel with indoctrinated followers of non-geth races without any problems. He could have turned any number of powerful people, like Benezia, to his cause. He could get the damn Council on board. If Sovereign's presence was needed at all after Saren was finished, he could fly over without one shot fired, his nature easily explained away to indoctrinated/manipulated officials.

Thus most of ME1 story is quite contrived. If I got over that, I can get over inconsistensies in the sequels.

Modifié par Mouton_Alpha, 28 janvier 2013 - 01:34 .

[Maxster_]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Well, that depends on how you take Vigil's words. Especially about reapers being trapped in dark space.
If you ignore his words - then there is no reason, and ME1 story makes no sense.
If reapers are indeed trapped in dark space(or can't fly into a galaxy without losses in full numbers), - then there is.
If there is Catalyst who controls reapers, who are just his pawns - then there is no reason.
If reapers can just fly into a galaxy in half a year losing completely nothing then there is no reason.

It doesn't make sense in any scenario, because the whole search for the Conduit makes no sense. Its only function is transport to the Citadel - it utterly ignores the fact that before Saren started looking for it, he was an active Spectre in good standing. He could have simply walked in into the control room. He could have infiltrated  the Citadel with indoctrinated followers of non-geth races without any problems. He could have turned any number of powerful people, like Benezia, to his cause. He could get the damn Council on board. If Sovereign's presence was needed at all after Saren was finished, he could fly over without one shot fired, his nature easily explained away to indoctrinated/manipulated officials.

Thus most of ME1 story is quite contrived. If I got over that, I can get over inconsistensies in the sequels.

That depends on the state of Citadel's security.
Of which we know only that it is numerous, and there is a fleet guarding the Citadel.
Council chamber is not accessible to anyone, and with high probability guarded with security forces.
As for taking council aboard the Sovereign - this doesn't make any sense, ship like that would be immediately attacked by the fleet. It is not like some turian frigate.
And for indoctrinated followers - depends of the state of the C-Sec, he can't just take them all to a council chamber.
He couldn't take them even to presidium, which is also restricted area, and guarded by C-Sec.
And to break through Citadel fleet, Sovereign needed a large geth fleet.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Maxster_ wrote...

That depends on the state of Citadel's security.
Of which we know only that it is numerous, and there is a fleet guarding the Citadel.
Council chamber is not accessible to anyone, and with high probability guarded with security forces.
As for taking council aboard the Sovereign - this doesn't make any sense, ship like that would be immediately attacked by the fleet. It is not like some turian frigate.
And for indoctrinated followers - depends of the state of the C-Sec, he can't just take them all to a council chamber.
He couldn't take them even to presidium, which is also restricted area, and guarded by C-Sec.
And to break through Citadel fleet, Sovereign needed a large geth fleet.

Got Benezia the Matriarch -> have her invite another matriarch to discuss flowers and cool weird dreadnoughts i found -> gradually indoctrinate more important matriarchs -> invite Tevos for secret matriarchal consultations -> own Thessia

Got Saren the Turian -> invite an important turian for secret week-long spectre stuff -> get more important turians, crawling up the Hierarchy -> eventually get the Primarch -> invite Turian Councilor -> own Palaven

Got Saren the Spectre-> invite a spectre/important C-sec person/STG for a secret mission -> get more important people -> own Citadel

Got Sovereign -> invite important scientists to study teh cool ancient ship in secret -> have them invite important people to see what they found -> if anyone is skeptical just have him/her come over for a week or two to see for themselves how cool and harmless it all is.

At this point, Sovereign is basically the Council flagship and can fly around the Citadel unmolested like Destiny Ascension.

[silverexile17s]

Troxa wrote...

In a story you should never ever add major story content as seperate content.
If it Was relevant it should have been in the story day 1

I agree on that. EC and Leviathan should have been the starting point to improve from. Not the end result.

[Reorte]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

It doesn't make sense in any scenario, because the whole search for the Conduit makes no sense. Its only function is transport to the Citadel - it utterly ignores the fact that before Saren started looking for it, he was an active Spectre in good standing. He could have simply walked in into the control room. He could have infiltrated  the Citadel with indoctrinated followers of non-geth races without any problems. He could have turned any number of powerful people, like Benezia, to his cause. He could get the damn Council on board. If Sovereign's presence was needed at all after Saren was finished, he could fly over without one shot fired, his nature easily explained away to indoctrinated/manipulated officials.

Thus most of ME1 story is quite contrived. If I got over that, I can get over inconsistensies in the sequels.

It's rather contrived and unlikely but that's a massive difference from downright impossible. I'll need to have another look at ME1 to see if it's as daft as it sounds; Saren and a load of geth barging in through the Conduit might be a sufficient explanation of the arms staying open long enough for Sovereign to get inside whereas he'd never manage to get enough force on board (at least without sounding even more contrived) to achieve that otherwise.

[silverexile17s]

Maxster_ wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Sovereign influenced the Rachni

There is no proof he personally did that. For all we know, they could have found a reaper artifact thing and go slightly insane. Even the idea that something influenced them isn't certain - although it is, in fact, probable.

Except there is.
Implies in ME1 and direct words of the rachni in ME2.

We hide. We burrow. We build. But we know you seek those who soured the souls of our mothers. When the time comes, our voice will join with yours, and our crescendo will burn the darkness clean

Maxster_ wrote...
As i said, it shows. If pure nonsense like Crucible, which can not be designed and can not be built, is relatively plausible, then destruction of characters motivations, turning chain of consequential events into random unrelated events with absolutely no reason for them to happen - is a normal storytelling.

Stop throwing insults, especiallly when I agree with you on many things. For example:

Maxster_ wrote...
There is no single reason for Sovereign to attack the Citadel.

^ this is evident even in ME1 alone. Crucible remains more plausible exactly because its design proccess remains vague, while we can witness the actions of Sovereign and Saren first-hand.

Well, that depends on how you take Vigil's words. Especially about reapers being trapped in dark space.
If you ignore his words - then there is no reason, and ME1 story makes no sense.
If reapers are indeed trapped in dark space(or can't fly into a galaxy without losses in full numbers), - then there is.
If there is Catalyst who controls reapers, who are just his pawns - then there is no reason.
If reapers can just fly into a galaxy in half a year losing completely nothing then there is no reason.

1. And as I said above, completely invaladated by Dr. Garret Bryson in ME3 Leviathan, where he reveals that the Reapers had no part in the Rachni wars, as (a) the rachni had nothing that was/is reconizable as Reaper tech, and ( the timing is off, as Sovergien didn't have any recorded movement til 20+ years ago. This is supported by the fact that Sovergien is still dormant when Saren finds it at the end of Mass Effect: Revelation. Also, we clearly see the queen resist indoctrination in ME3, so if she could, why couldn't the other queens?
The Leviathans have the same "telepathy" abilaty as them, and evolved similary, so the likelyhood of Leviathan minipulation is much higher then Reaper minipulation. Also, since the powers are similar, the Rachni Queen would likely not ever know the difference.
So NO, Reaper involvement in the Rachni War has been disproved by the ME3 "Leviathan" DLC.

2.  So you admit you are ignoring content:wizard:
Makes sense. It's the only way you couldn't remember that the  Reapers took three years to get here form Dark Space.
You say half a year, but ME2 is two years later, and still no Reapers. Six months of time later, still no Reapers. Six months in Alliance lock-up, Reapers come in at the END. End Result: Reaper arrival = Three Years after ME1
GOOD GOD, study your lore!

Also, as I said before:

Citadel Trap suceeds= locked relays, galaxy segregated and isolated. Government decapatated. Galaxy in panic. Core military force destroyed
Citadel Trap fails = Three years heading through Dark Space, six months slogging through the races. Unable to seal Relays to pick off the races. Dozens of losses that they weren't prepared to lose.

HOW can you look at the losses the Reapers sustained, and the trouble they went through, and say there wasn't a point to Sovergien taking the Citadel? Had it worked, they'd have won instantly, compaired to dragging out a war.
And AGAIN, the Catalyst was likely dormant, as a result of the prothean sabatoge.

[silverexile17s]

[quote]Maxster_ wrote...

[quote]kal_reegar wrote...

[quote]
This makes no sense.
Reapers deliberately hiding any evidence of their existence, there is no reason why this attack on the Citadel is even happened. If there was an other, simplier way, like flying into a galaxy in half a year, losing completely nothing.
[/quote]

who said that the other way is simpler? We know that reapers were preparing the invasion for several decades, maybe more (rachni?), and this alone makes your statement questionable.
[/quote]
Really? All we know, that reapers, after ME2, activated and started their flight towards the galaxy.
[quote]
I've noticed that you're fond of fallacies... well, that's a fallacy, at least for the pragma-dialectical theory
you're assuming inconsistent implicit premises, when in fact you may assume a rational implicit premise, given the context: scilicet, that for the reapers the citadel trap is a priority (not a necessity..they don't need the citadel to win the war) because it gives them a relevant advantage (relay network + wipe out galactic leader + informations/datas + surprise/shock effect), and that's why they are willing to delay the invasion and risk Sovereign.
[/quote]
They are risking entire invasion, by blowing Sovereign's cover. This makes no sense, especially if there is completely no need to hurry.
You know, reapers can just fly into a galaxy in half a year. Of course, you can just ignore ME1 and ME2 story, and just say that reapers flew for thousands of years.
Anyway, ME2 story makes no sense either way. But that's beside the point.
Even if reapers flew for thousands of years(which contradicts story), there is completely no need for Sovereign to attack Citadel when there is only year to wait.
[quote]
also, you don't know the dangers of a travel through the dark space, the cost in term of resources etc.
man, you gotta give the reapers some credit, or the benefit of the doubt at least...
[/quote]
Reapers arrived at full strength, and easily crushed any opposition. Given such superiority, there is no reason for them to have Citadel trap.
[quote]
[quote]Reapers took Citadel in ME3 easily when they wanted, you forgot that?
So, ME3 itself contradicting your opinion.[/quote]

no: since I think that Tim is indoctrinated, the cerberus/Udina coup d'état is an indirect attempt to take control of the citadel.

so, "the reapers took the citadel" not when they wanted, but at the second attempt... and even if we admit that it was the first attempt, how can you say that it was easy? Or that they took it only thanks to a direct attack? TIM, the indoc TIM, was inside the presidium, near the control room... so who knows?

we know nothing about the citadel's fall, and nevertheless you are speculating about a nonsensical scenario... fallacy again!
[/quote]
We know that Citadel was taken, and taken quickly, exactly when they needed.
They could just did the same thing at the start of ME3.
[quote]
[quote]This doesn't makes any sense.
They took Citadel by force, easily[/quote]

easily... maybe the word you're looking for is quickly.
A rapid conquest is not neccesarly an easy and simple one.

also, I must clarify what I mean with "dangerous". Of course the reapers can take the citadel, but what about the trade-off? Simply, in a scenario where the surprise effect is forever lost, the cost of the conquest could be higher than the reward.
[/quote]
Please.
Reapers crushed everyone with ease, even turian fleet, which is strongest in the galaxy.
What cost would that be, when reapers easily beaten all opposition with divided(for no reason) forces? Only time, which gives their opposition completely nothing, and that operation(Citadel takeover) took only several days at best.

Sure, cost of beating isolated packets of resistance is much higher than beating entire combined fleet of the galaxy.
Riight
[quote]
[quote]Except Sovereign locked relays when he docked. And only because of Vigil's program, Shepard was able to unlock relays.[/quote]

yes, and as I've said, maybe after Vigil's program was used, another code/device is required to lock/unlock the relays again. Maybe it is not a thing they can do in the dark space in two minutes...
[/quote]
It doesn't matter even if takes weeks(which i doubt).
Nothing can stop reapers, as they was portrayed in ME3, in direct combat. They took the Citadel, and no one would ever stand a chance of taking it back.
[quote]
and maybe to lock/unlock the relays is not the most important advantage of taking the citadel, as everyboy seemed to think.
maybe the surprise/shock effect is the most important advantage.. and after ME1 and Arrival it won't work anymore, so the citadel becomes a secondary goal.
[/quote]
Please.
ME civilizations are built around mass relays. Take this away - and they are already destroyed - colonies and outposts die out, economics collapse.
Add to that inability to join fleets - and they can't even fight back.
[quote]
Or maybe the reapers are waiting to attack the citadel because they know that the more they rage on the homeworlds, the more ships and resources will be removed from the untouched citadel.
this way, the attack will be a lot easier.
we don't know the reapers priority... if a waiting three months means fewer dead/damaged class sovereing reapers, then they will wait and keep the relays unlocked
.
[/quote]
This does not make any sense.
Instead of separating fleets and attack one target with full might of the reapers fleets, - thus lowering losses, - they scattered their fleets to fight everyone at once, spreading thin and giving chances of local victories, and thus increasing their losses.


[/quote]
1. They are JUST ENTERING THE GALAXY THEN AND THERE. They didn't JUST power up. They are ONLY JUST ARRIVING.
They have been travaling ever since ME1. STUDY YOUR LORE!

2. The Council was never the wiser, I remind you. They didn't take Shepard's word on what Sovergien was, and chalked up Sovergien being a geth creation, which could explain away it being A.I. driven, as all geth ships are.
The Reapers took three years to get here. That scene in ME2 is them JUST NOW COMMING OUT OF DARK SPACE. That's the END of their journey we see, NOT THE START.
Misinterpertations like that, it's NO WONDER you can't ever prove your points: You constantly misread or ignore pieces of the lore.

3. Aside from the dozens of Reapers that died? Check "The Miricle on Palaven" and "Reaper Vunerbilaties" and it will say that the Reapers have taken losses, and that dozens of capitol ships and destroyers have fallen.
Losses that never would have happened had the Citadel been taken in ME1.

4. They took it quickly. That doesn't mean easily. You are making unbased assumptions again. Just because they took the Citadel fast, doesn't mean they took it easy.
And if they did take it easy, it would be because the Illusive Man pulled a Saren manuver and hacked the station control. You keep overlooking these details.

5. If that was true, why is everyone still alive?
Six months to force Palaven down. Heated battles on tuchanka. Kahje stays safe if their auto-defences are saved. Irune invasion is halted by turian/krogan forces.Earth still fighting despite Reaper occupation. The Citadel untaken till the Illusive Man helps. Thessia still resisting despite burning. Sur'kesh still intact despite the fighting. The Earth Reaper fleet broken through and ground forces landing. Dozens of Reapaers dead through it all.
Yeah, they just rolled over everyone (scarcasim). Seriously, ease was the last thing the invasion was for them.
If they were so tough, they wouldn't need to field proxy armies of husks to fight for them. They have never once fought without a proxy army (geth, Collectors, husks)
THINK about that.

6.They only took the Citadel because of the Illusive Man. That's they only way, as they would have been unable to otherwise. The stations arms would have locked them out, and the only way in from there would be to damage the station.  And even THEN, there isn't ANY proof that the taking of the Citadel was easy. Just fast.
And Shepard took it back from the Catalyst in the endings.

7-8. Again, Citadel was only taken after the Illusive Man went there himslef. That's more then concidence.
You seriously overestimate the Reapers.

[silverexile17s]

Maxster_ wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Well, that depends on how you take Vigil's words. Especially about reapers being trapped in dark space.
If you ignore his words - then there is no reason, and ME1 story makes no sense.
If reapers are indeed trapped in dark space(or can't fly into a galaxy without losses in full numbers), - then there is.
If there is Catalyst who controls reapers, who are just his pawns - then there is no reason.
If reapers can just fly into a galaxy in half a year losing completely nothing then there is no reason.

It doesn't make sense in any scenario, because the whole search for the Conduit makes no sense. Its only function is transport to the Citadel - it utterly ignores the fact that before Saren started looking for it, he was an active Spectre in good standing. He could have simply walked in into the control room. He could have infiltrated  the Citadel with indoctrinated followers of non-geth races without any problems. He could have turned any number of powerful people, like Benezia, to his cause. He could get the damn Council on board. If Sovereign's presence was needed at all after Saren was finished, he could fly over without one shot fired, his nature easily explained away to indoctrinated/manipulated officials.

Thus most of ME1 story is quite contrived. If I got over that, I can get over inconsistensies in the sequels.

That depends on the state of Citadel's security.
Of which we know only that it is numerous, and there is a fleet guarding the Citadel.
Council chamber is not accessible to anyone, and with high probability guarded with security forces.
As for taking council aboard the Sovereign - this doesn't make any sense, ship like that would be immediately attacked by the fleet. It is not like some turian frigate.
And for indoctrinated followers - depends of the state of the C-Sec, he can't just take them all to a council chamber.
He couldn't take them even to presidium, which is also restricted area, and guarded by C-Sec.
And to break through Citadel fleet, Sovereign needed a large geth fleet.

Sovergien was guarded by geth fleets, which soked up fire. Not to mention that Sovergiens shields would need at least three dreadnoughts firing against for them to break quickly.
The attack in the Citadel was anything but suicidal for it, if not for Shepard.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 28 janvier 2013 - 08:46 .

[Mr.DaveCR]

So, after many pages of just fighting, is it idiotic to view the (defunct) mass accelerator from ME2 as an earlier, flawed, "primitive", clearly uncalibrated and perhaps even rushed version of the Crucible?

Not powerful enough to defeat the Reapers but an over-sized energy source (a.k.a. glorified battery shaped like a microphone)?

Modifié par Mr.DaveCR, 28 janvier 2013 - 08:55 .

[kal_reegar]

 

Really? All we know, that reapers, after ME2, activated and started their flight towards the galaxy.

no, we see them flying towards the galaxy. Stop.
we don't know when they "activated" the first time, and even if we assume that they start their travel 6 months before ME2, we don't know the negative effects (in term of energy, eezo etc) of that a travel.

FTL travel isn't cheap or easy. You have to discharge the eezo, and in the dark space there are no plantes with magnetic fields etc.

They are risking entire invasion, by blowing Sovereign's cover. This makes no sense, especially if there is completely no need to hurry.

you're contradicting yourself... as you said, there is no real risk, they are invincible (or at least they think they are).
waiting 20/200/2000 years and blowing Sovereing's cover etc makes no difference: they will win easily no matter what.

it's only a matter of cost and reward. They are machines, they think "mathematically".

the citadel trap ensures many advantages. Some of them we know, some of them we may assume (for example, a less expansive travel).

if the citadal trap fails, some of  these advantages are lost.

as these advantages are lost, a direct attack to the citadel may have become simply inconvenient, at least in the first months of the war. Not difficult or dangerous... simply inconvenient.

Reapers arrived at full strength, and easily crushed any opposition. Given such superiority, there is no reason for them to have Citadel trap.

Sovereing easily crushed the military opposition too, but all sovereing did in ME1 was in order to infiltrate Saren, lock the relay and prevent the closure (and the re-opening once the sovereing has taken direct control) of the arms.

if the citadel close the arms, it becomes a lot harder to take.

there is no reason not to assume that also in ME3 reapers were a bit concerned about the closure of the arms. And we don't know how exaclty the citadel was taken, how easy and costlles it was for the reapers. 

the citadel fall quickly, that's all we can say. Quickly =/= easily

We know that Citadel was taken, and taken quickly, exactly when they needed.

you're missing the point...

1. the citadel can be taken ANYTIME. No exceptions. I agree.
2. the citadel ensure some advantages... some of them are still obtainable, others are gone
3. taking the citadel with closed arms is a lot harder than taking the citadel with open arms

in ME1 advantages > costs and risks
in ME3 advantages < costs and risks

evidently, surprise/shock effect + avoid a 6 months travel + more chances to prevent the closure of the arms during the attack (advantages that cannot be obtained anymore) were worth wainting some years and risking the sovereing.
On the contrary, taking the citadel during ME3 wasn't worth a direct attack. It is under allert, infiltration isn't easy, a siege could be inconvenient, a lot of advantages as lost anyway.

trade off.

Sure, cost of beating isolated packets of resistance is much higher than beating entire combined fleet of the galaxy.

it can be. Sometimes the cost of a single resolutive battle is lower than costant guerrilla warfare.
turians achieved their best victories with suicide attacks and guerrila tactics, not with huge battles.

and you're arbitrary overestimating the lock-relays strategy. Reapers will win no matter what, and if the only situation where they could suffer relevant losses (nothing too serious, but still losses) is attacking a closed and well protected citadel, they will wait.

Nothing can stop reapers, as they was portrayed in ME3, in direct combat. They took the Citadel, and no one would ever stand a chance of taking it back.

Please.
ME civilizations are built around mass relays. Take this away - and they are already destroyed - colonies and outposts die out, economics collapse.
Add to that inability to join fleets - and they can't even fight back.

This does not make any sense.
Instead of separating fleets and attack one target with full might of the reapers fleets, - thus lowering losses, - they scattered their fleets to fight everyone at once, spreading thin and giving chances of local victories, and thus increasing their losses.

again, you're arbitrary understimanting the costs of a direct attack to the citadel and the costs of a siege if the arms are closed, and overstimating the "local victories".



you're creating a nonsensical scenario starting from likely and believable implicit premises. That's a fallacy.
you should try to create a rational scenario starting from different implict premises, even if they are less likely and believable. Of course they have to be reasonable, but not necessay the "most reasonable"

[silverexile17s]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

That depends on the state of Citadel's security.
Of which we know only that it is numerous, and there is a fleet guarding the Citadel.
Council chamber is not accessible to anyone, and with high probability guarded with security forces.
As for taking council aboard the Sovereign - this doesn't make any sense, ship like that would be immediately attacked by the fleet. It is not like some turian frigate.
And for indoctrinated followers - depends of the state of the C-Sec, he can't just take them all to a council chamber.
He couldn't take them even to presidium, which is also restricted area, and guarded by C-Sec.
And to break through Citadel fleet, Sovereign needed a large geth fleet.

Got Benezia the Matriarch -> have her invite another matriarch to discuss flowers and cool weird dreadnoughts i found -> gradually indoctrinate more important matriarchs -> invite Tevos for secret matriarchal consultations -> own Thessia

Got Saren the Turian -> invite an important turian for secret week-long spectre stuff -> get more important turians, crawling up the Hierarchy -> eventually get the Primarch -> invite Turian Councilor -> own Palaven

Got Saren the Spectre-> invite a spectre/important C-sec person/STG for a secret mission -> get more important people -> own Citadel

Got Sovereign -> invite important scientists to study teh cool ancient ship in secret -> have them invite important people to see what they found -> if anyone is skeptical just have him/her come over for a week or two to see for themselves how cool and harmless it all is.

At this point, Sovereign is basically the Council flagship and can fly around the Citadel unmolested like Destiny Ascension.

Benezia and Saren: Both would draw massive amounts of unwanted attention to themselves if that was done, making moving around conspicuiously near-impossible. That runs counter to their goals, as they'd need to go to the terminus to orginize the geth fleets, and can't do that from the Citadel. Your plan runs counter to the goal.
And telling someone about that dreadnought is the last possible thing that you would want to do.The Council would clamp down on the thing faster then you could blink
the moment it's existance was leaked to them, which, if people were
invited to, would happen pretty quick. The geth revere Sovergien, so
this happeneing would be preceved as the organics taking it captive,
which they would take as blasphmy. Saren need's unrestricted access of
Sovergien to control the geth, and unrestricted control is the last thing he'd have if they did what YOU suggest.
And Indoctrination doesn't happen that fast. One visit doesn't do anything, as shown by Shepard in ME2 on the dead Reaper. Indoctrinate that fast, and the mind breaks. All you get from a single days effort is a mindless husk, which is usless for what you keep talking about. The invites would only raise suspission, and get Saren put on the radar - the last place he'd want to be.

So NO, going public with it would have ruined everything.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 28 janvier 2013 - 08:55 .

[silverexile17s]

kal_reegar wrote...

 

Really? All we know, that reapers, after ME2, activated and started their flight towards the galaxy.

no, we see them flying towards the galaxy. Stop.
we don't know when they "activated" the first time, and even if we assume that they start their travel 6 months before ME2, we don't know the negative effects (in term of energy, eezo etc) of that a travel.

FTL travel isn't cheap or easy. You have to discharge the eezo, and in the dark space there are no plantes with magnetic fields etc.

They are risking entire invasion, by blowing Sovereign's cover. This makes no sense, especially if there is completely no need to hurry.

you're contradicting yourself... as you said, there is no real risk, they are invincible (or at least they think they are).
waiting 20/200/2000 years and blowing Sovereing's cover etc makes no difference: they will win easily no matter what.

it's only a matter of cost and reward. They are machines, they think "mathematically".

the citadel trap ensures many advantages. Some of them we know, some of them we may assume (for example, a less expansive travel).

if the citadal trap fails, some of  these advantages are lost.

as these advantages are lost, a direct attack to the citadel may have become simply inconvenient, at least in the first months of the war. Not difficult or dangerous... simply inconvenient.

Reapers arrived at full strength, and easily crushed any opposition. Given such superiority, there is no reason for them to have Citadel trap.

Sovereing easily crushed the military opposition too, but all sovereing did in ME1 was in order to infiltrate Saren, lock the relay and prevent the closure (and the re-opening once the sovereing has taken direct control) of the arms.

if the citadel close the arms, it becomes a lot harder to take.

there is no reason not to assume that also in ME3 reapers were a bit concerned about the closure of the arms. And we don't know how exaclty the citadel was taken, how easy and costlles it was for the reapers. 

the citadel fall quickly, that's all we can say. Quickly =/= easily

We know that Citadel was taken, and taken quickly, exactly when they needed.

you're missing the point...

1. the citadel can be taken ANYTIME. No exceptions. I agree.
2. the citadel ensure some advantages... some of them are still obtainable, others are gone
3. taking the citadel with closed arms is a lot harder than taking the citadel with open arms

in ME1 advantages > costs and risks
in ME3 advantages < costs and risks

evidently, surprise/shock effect + avoid a 6 months travel + more chances to prevent the closure of the arms during the attack (advantages that cannot be obtained anymore) were worth wainting some years and risking the sovereing.
On the contrary, taking the citadel during ME3 wasn't worth a direct attack. It is under allert, infiltration isn't easy, a siege could be inconvenient, a lot of advantages as lost anyway.

trade off.

Sure, cost of beating isolated packets of resistance is much higher than beating entire combined fleet of the galaxy.

it can be. Sometimes the cost of a single resolutive battle is lower than costant guerrilla warfare.
turians achieved their best victories with suicide attacks and guerrila tactics, not with huge battles.

and you're arbitrary overestimating the lock-relays strategy. Reapers will win no matter what, and if the only situation where they could suffer relevant losses (nothing too serious, but still losses) is attacking a closed and well protected citadel, they will wait.

Nothing can stop reapers, as they was portrayed in ME3, in direct combat. They took the Citadel, and no one would ever stand a chance of taking it back.

Please.
ME civilizations are built around mass relays. Take this away - and they are already destroyed - colonies and outposts die out, economics collapse.
Add to that inability to join fleets - and they can't even fight back.

This does not make any sense.
Instead of separating fleets and attack one target with full might of the reapers fleets, - thus lowering losses, - they scattered their fleets to fight everyone at once, spreading thin and giving chances of local victories, and thus increasing their losses.

again, you're arbitrary understimanting the costs of a direct attack to the citadel and the costs of a siege if the arms are closed, and overstimating the "local victories".



you're creating a nonsensical scenario starting from likely and believable implicit premises. That's a fallacy.
you should try to create a rational scenario starting from different implict premises, even if they are less likely and believable. Of course they have to be reasonable, but not necessay the "most reasonable"

Congradulations. You once again point out that he doesn't look before he types.
Also, I found it interesting that the Citadel only falls after the Illusive Man personally heads there and tells the Reapers from the Citadel of what he found.
It seems that the reason the Reapers took the Citadel this time, was because the Illusive Man became "Saren 2.0" and succeded where Saren failed - he sabotaged the station for them to take.
Just saying.

[Wayning_Star]

silverexile17s wrote...

kal_reegar wrote...

 

Really? All we know, that reapers, after ME2, activated and started their flight towards the galaxy.

no, we see them flying towards the galaxy. Stop.
we don't know when they "activated" the first time, and even if we assume that they start their travel 6 months before ME2, we don't know the negative effects (in term of energy, eezo etc) of that a travel.

FTL travel isn't cheap or easy. You have to discharge the eezo, and in the dark space there are no plantes with magnetic fields etc.

They are risking entire invasion, by blowing Sovereign's cover. This makes no sense, especially if there is completely no need to hurry.

you're contradicting yourself... as you said, there is no real risk, they are invincible (or at least they think they are).
waiting 20/200/2000 years and blowing Sovereing's cover etc makes no difference: they will win easily no matter what.

it's only a matter of cost and reward. They are machines, they think "mathematically".

the citadel trap ensures many advantages. Some of them we know, some of them we may assume (for example, a less expansive travel).

if the citadal trap fails, some of  these advantages are lost.

as these advantages are lost, a direct attack to the citadel may have become simply inconvenient, at least in the first months of the war. Not difficult or dangerous... simply inconvenient.

Reapers arrived at full strength, and easily crushed any opposition. Given such superiority, there is no reason for them to have Citadel trap.

Sovereing easily crushed the military opposition too, but all sovereing did in ME1 was in order to infiltrate Saren, lock the relay and prevent the closure (and the re-opening once the sovereing has taken direct control) of the arms.

if the citadel close the arms, it becomes a lot harder to take.

there is no reason not to assume that also in ME3 reapers were a bit concerned about the closure of the arms. And we don't know how exaclty the citadel was taken, how easy and costlles it was for the reapers. 

the citadel fall quickly, that's all we can say. Quickly =/= easily

We know that Citadel was taken, and taken quickly, exactly when they needed.

you're missing the point...

1. the citadel can be taken ANYTIME. No exceptions. I agree.
2. the citadel ensure some advantages... some of them are still obtainable, others are gone
3. taking the citadel with closed arms is a lot harder than taking the citadel with open arms

in ME1 advantages > costs and risks
in ME3 advantages < costs and risks

evidently, surprise/shock effect + avoid a 6 months travel + more chances to prevent the closure of the arms during the attack (advantages that cannot be obtained anymore) were worth wainting some years and risking the sovereing.
On the contrary, taking the citadel during ME3 wasn't worth a direct attack. It is under allert, infiltration isn't easy, a siege could be inconvenient, a lot of advantages as lost anyway.

trade off.

Sure, cost of beating isolated packets of resistance is much higher than beating entire combined fleet of the galaxy.

it can be. Sometimes the cost of a single resolutive battle is lower than costant guerrilla warfare.
turians achieved their best victories with suicide attacks and guerrila tactics, not with huge battles.

and you're arbitrary overestimating the lock-relays strategy. Reapers will win no matter what, and if the only situation where they could suffer relevant losses (nothing too serious, but still losses) is attacking a closed and well protected citadel, they will wait.

Nothing can stop reapers, as they was portrayed in ME3, in direct combat. They took the Citadel, and no one would ever stand a chance of taking it back.

Please.
ME civilizations are built around mass relays. Take this away - and they are already destroyed - colonies and outposts die out, economics collapse.
Add to that inability to join fleets - and they can't even fight back.

This does not make any sense.
Instead of separating fleets and attack one target with full might of the reapers fleets, - thus lowering losses, - they scattered their fleets to fight everyone at once, spreading thin and giving chances of local victories, and thus increasing their losses.

again, you're arbitrary understimanting the costs of a direct attack to the citadel and the costs of a siege if the arms are closed, and overstimating the "local victories".



you're creating a nonsensical scenario starting from likely and believable implicit premises. That's a fallacy.
you should try to create a rational scenario starting from different implict premises, even if they are less likely and believable. Of course they have to be reasonable, but not necessay the "most reasonable"

Congradulations. You once again point out that he doesn't look before he types.
Also, I found it interesting that the Citadel only falls after the Illusive Man personally heads there and tells the Reapers from the Citadel of what he found.
It seems that the reason the Reapers took the Citadel this time, was because the Illusive Man became "Saren 2.0" and succeded where Saren failed - he sabotaged the station for them to take.
Just saying.

I thought in ME3, the reapers came through relays, all of them in every system, overtaking resistance?

The catalyst takes the citadel from within every cycle, but has to be invoked, given notice that the cycle is to continue. TIM knew that and figured to align then indoctrinate/control them. Folly for sure...

[Wayning_Star]

How many unaccessed relays are there anyways?

[kal_reegar]

[quote]Also, I found it interesting that the Citadel only falls after the Illusive Man personally heads there and tells the Reapers from the Citadel of what he found.
It seems that the reason the Reapers took the Citadel this time, was because the Illusive Man became "Saren 2.0" and succeded where Saren failed - he sabotaged the station for them to take.
Just saying.[quote]

I agree with you about TIM.

[silverexile17s]

Mr.DaveCR wrote...

So, after many pages of just fighting, is it idiotic to view the (defunct) mass accelerator from ME2 as an earlier, flawed, "primitive", clearly uncalibrated and perhaps even rushed version of the Crucible?

Not powerful enough to defeat the Reapers but an over-sized energy source (a.k.a. glorified battery shaped like a microphone)?

The Crucible uses Dark Energy. Same stuff biotics are made of.

[KingZayd]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Well, that depends on how you take Vigil's words. Especially about reapers being trapped in dark space.
If you ignore his words - then there is no reason, and ME1 story makes no sense.
If reapers are indeed trapped in dark space(or can't fly into a galaxy without losses in full numbers), - then there is.
If there is Catalyst who controls reapers, who are just his pawns - then there is no reason.
If reapers can just fly into a galaxy in half a year losing completely nothing then there is no reason.

It doesn't make sense in any scenario, because the whole search for the Conduit makes no sense. Its only function is transport to the Citadel - it utterly ignores the fact that before Saren started looking for it, he was an active Spectre in good standing. He could have simply walked in into the control room. He could have infiltrated  the Citadel with indoctrinated followers of non-geth races without any problems. He could have turned any number of powerful people, like Benezia, to his cause. He could get the damn Council on board. If Sovereign's presence was needed at all after Saren was finished, he could fly over without one shot fired, his nature easily explained away to indoctrinated/manipulated officials.

Thus most of ME1 story is quite contrived. If I got over that, I can get over inconsistensies in the sequels.

Sovereign was not initially looking for the Conduit. He wasn't aware of what the Conduit was. He was looking for answers as to what went wrong with the Citadel Relay.

Modifié par KingZayd, 28 janvier 2013 - 10:49 .

[KingZayd]

Wayning_Star wrote...

How many unaccessed relays are there anyways?

lots, due to Citadel law after the Rachni Wars. No relays were to be activated until they knew what was on the other side.

[silverexile17s]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Well, that depends on how you take Vigil's words. Especially about reapers being trapped in dark space.
If you ignore his words - then there is no reason, and ME1 story makes no sense.
If reapers are indeed trapped in dark space(or can't fly into a galaxy without losses in full numbers), - then there is.
If there is Catalyst who controls reapers, who are just his pawns - then there is no reason.
If reapers can just fly into a galaxy in half a year losing completely nothing then there is no reason.

It doesn't make sense in any scenario, because the whole search for the Conduit makes no sense. Its only function is transport to the Citadel - it utterly ignores the fact that before Saren started looking for it, he was an active Spectre in good standing. He could have simply walked in into the control room. He could have infiltrated  the Citadel with indoctrinated followers of non-geth races without any problems. He could have turned any number of powerful people, like Benezia, to his cause. He could get the damn Council on board. If Sovereign's presence was needed at all after Saren was finished, he could fly over without one shot fired, his nature easily explained away to indoctrinated/manipulated officials.

Thus most of ME1 story is quite contrived. If I got over that, I can get over inconsistensies in the sequels.

....
LOOK at the losses the Reapers took in ME3. All that would have been completely avoided had Sovergien suceeded.
Anyone can see that from the Comparison. Instant win and picking them off VS slogging through everyone at once.
You look at that and DON'T see a reason for Sovergien trying to take the Citadel?
If it had, there would be several dozen fewer dead Reapers, and everyone would've cut off with no way to counter. There would have been no chance at all. Stopping Sovergien gave the galaxy a chance to fight. And a chance to fight is better then the insant loss that Sovergien suceeding would have brought.
Think on that.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 29 janvier 2013 - 10:18 .

[Maxster_]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

That depends on the state of Citadel's security.
Of which we know only that it is numerous, and there is a fleet guarding the Citadel.
Council chamber is not accessible to anyone, and with high probability guarded with security forces.
As for taking council aboard the Sovereign - this doesn't make any sense, ship like that would be immediately attacked by the fleet. It is not like some turian frigate.
And for indoctrinated followers - depends of the state of the C-Sec, he can't just take them all to a council chamber.
He couldn't take them even to presidium, which is also restricted area, and guarded by C-Sec.
And to break through Citadel fleet, Sovereign needed a large geth fleet.

Got Benezia the Matriarch -> have her invite another matriarch to discuss flowers and cool weird dreadnoughts i found -> gradually indoctrinate more important matriarchs -> invite Tevos for secret matriarchal consultations -> own Thessia

Got Saren the Turian -> invite an important turian for secret week-long spectre stuff -> get more important turians, crawling up the Hierarchy -> eventually get the Primarch -> invite Turian Councilor -> own Palaven

Got Saren the Spectre-> invite a spectre/important C-sec person/STG for a secret mission -> get more important people -> own Citadel

Got Sovereign -> invite important scientists to study teh cool ancient ship in secret -> have them invite important people to see what they found -> if anyone is skeptical just have him/her come over for a week or two to see for themselves how cool and harmless it all is.

At this point, Sovereign is basically the Council flagship and can fly around the Citadel unmolested like Destiny Ascension.

Indoctrination does not work that way.
That way you'll only get mindless zombies, incapable of sustaining themselves.

[Maxster_]

[quote]kal_reegar wrote...

 [quote]Really? All we know, that reapers, after ME2, activated and started their flight towards the galaxy.[/quote]

no, we see them flying towards the galaxy. Stop.
[/quote]
Really?
[quote]
we don't know when they "activated" the first time, and even if we assume that they start their travel 6 months before ME2, we don't know the negative effects (in term of energy, eezo etc) of that a travel.
FTL travel isn't cheap or easy. You have to discharge the eezo, and in the dark space there are no plantes with magnetic fields etc.
[/quote]

Except reapers don't need crew, and don't have one.
And of course, reapers arrived at full strength, and with that strength they never needed Citadel trap. That was a very bad retcon in ME3.
[quote]

[quote]They are risking entire invasion, by blowing Sovereign's cover. This makes no sense, especially if there is completely no need to hurry.[/quote]

you're contradicting yourself... as you said, there is no real risk, they are invincible (or at least they think they are).
waiting 20/200/2000 years and blowing Sovereing's cover etc makes no difference: they will win easily no matter what.
[/quote]
I'm not contradicting yourself.
ME3 is contradicting ME1.
In ME3 reapers shown as completely invicible.
And, of course, there is no risk for them in ME3, but, there is completely no need for Sovereign to act either. Attack on the Citadel just happened, because reasons.
Of course, if reapers were like they were in ME1 - then there would be risk of exposure. But it doesn't matter, in ME1 reapers were trapped in dark space, and that was the reason why Sovereign acted so boldly.
[quote]
it's only a matter of cost and reward. They are machines, they think "mathematically".

the citadel trap ensures many advantages. Some of them we know, some of them we may assume (for example, a less expansive travel).

if the citadal trap fails, some of  these advantages are lost.

as these advantages are lost, a direct attack to the citadel may have become simply inconvenient, at least in the first months of the war. Not difficult or dangerous... simply inconvenient.
[/quote]
This makes no sense.
Relays closed - war instantly won, losses minimal.
Relays not closed - war is won, losses maximal.
[quote]
[quote]Reapers arrived at full strength, and easily crushed any opposition. Given such superiority, there is no reason for them to have Citadel trap.[/quote]

Sovereing easily crushed the military opposition too, but all sovereing did in ME1 was in order to infiltrate Saren, lock the relay and prevent the closure (and the re-opening once the sovereing has taken direct control) of the arms.
[/quote]
Please.
Reapers are not invulnerable, that is entire reason why Citadel was not taken right before rachni wars by Sovereign alone.
Vigil's said that also.
[quote]
if the citadel close the arms, it becomes a lot harder to take.
[/quote]
Does not matter for reapers. They took Citadel easily in ME3.
[quote]
there is no reason not to assume that also in ME3 reapers were a bit concerned about the closure of the arms. And we don't know how exaclty the citadel was taken, how easy and costlles it was for the reapers. 

the citadel fall quickly, that's all we can say. Quickly =/= easily
[/quote]
Please.
Reapers beat every fleet easily. No fleets = no opposition.
This means that if Citadel was closed, they were just sitting around, and shooting at it.
This took few days at maximum, hence Citadel being taken was a surprise for Shepard.
And this, comrade, means - reapers took Citadel quickly and easily.
[quote]
[quote]We know that Citadel was taken, and taken quickly, exactly when they needed.[/quote]

you're missing the point...

1. the citadel can be taken ANYTIME. No exceptions. I agree.
2. the citadel ensure some advantages... some of them are still obtainable, others are gone
3. taking the citadel with closed arms is a lot harder than taking the citadel with open arms

in ME1 advantages > costs and risks
in ME3 advantages < costs and risks

evidently, surprise/shock effect + avoid a 6 months travel + more chances to prevent the closure of the arms during the attack (advantages that cannot be obtained anymore) were worth wainting some years and risking the sovereing.
On the contrary, taking the citadel during ME3 wasn't worth a direct attack. It is under allert, infiltration isn't easy, a siege could be inconvenient, a lot of advantages as lost anyway.

trade off.
[/quote]
No.
Entire possibility of relays being locked - means minimum losses for reapers.
Relays not being locked - means maximum losses for reapers.
As for shock - easily taking council center - is a shock enough.
[quote]
[quote]Sure, cost of beating isolated packets of resistance is much higher than beating entire combined fleet of the galaxy.[/quote]

it can be. Sometimes the cost of a single resolutive battle is lower than costant guerrilla warfare.
turians achieved their best victories with suicide attacks and guerrila tactics, not with huge battles.
[/quote]
And of course it is completely unrelated to a topic.
To fight war in space - you need infrastructure. And it is completely destroyed by the reapers.
And guerrila tactics, of course, especially effective with turned off mass relays, right
[quote]
and you're arbitrary overestimating the lock-relays strategy. Reapers will win no matter what, and if the only situation where they could suffer relevant losses (nothing too serious, but still losses) is attacking a closed and well protected citadel, they will wait.
[/quote]
Well protected by small portion of those fleets, which said reapers easily beaten in all battles.
Sure.
They were entrenched
[quote]
[quote]Nothing can stop reapers, as they was portrayed in ME3, in direct combat. They took the Citadel, and no one would ever stand a chance of taking it back.

Please.
ME civilizations are built around mass relays. Take this away - and they are already destroyed - colonies and outposts die out, economics collapse.
Add to that inability to join fleets - and they can't even fight back.

This does not make any sense.
Instead of separating fleets and attack one target with full might of the reapers fleets, - thus lowering losses, - they scattered their fleets to fight everyone at once, spreading thin and giving chances of local victories, and thus increasing their losses.[/quote]


again, you're arbitrary understimanting the costs of a direct attack to the citadel and the costs of a siege if the arms are closed, and overstimating the "local victories".
[/quote]
And what cost would that be, exactly?
Loss of some reapers armaments? Which being just magnetoactive metals, btw. Or wards fighting back?
Sure. That will be their downfall. There is no such metals in the galaxy.

[quote]
you're creating a nonsensical scenario starting from likely and believable implicit premises. That's a fallacy.
you should try to create a rational scenario starting from different implict premises, even if they are less likely and believable. Of course they have to be reasonable, but not necessay the "most reasonable"
[/quote]
Sure sure.

Modifié par Maxster_, 30 janvier 2013 - 08:38 .

[silverexile17s]

[quote]Maxster_ wrote...

[quote]kal_reegar wrote...

 [quote]Really? All we know, that reapers, after ME2, activated and started their flight towards the galaxy.[/quote]

no, we see them flying towards the galaxy. Stop.
[/quote]
Really?
[quote]
we
don't know when they "activated" the first time, and even if we assume
that they start their travel 6 months before ME2, we don't know the
negative effects (in term of energy, eezo etc) of that a travel.
FTL
travel isn't cheap or easy. You have to discharge the eezo, and in the
dark space there are no plantes with magnetic fields etc.
[/quote]

Except reapers don't need crew, and don't have one.
And
of course, reapers arrived at full strength, and with that strength
they never needed Citadel trap. That was a very bad retcon in ME3.
[quote]

[quote]They
are risking entire invasion, by blowing Sovereign's cover. This makes
no sense, especially if there is completely no need to hurry.[/quote]

you're contradicting yourself... as you said, there is no real risk, they are invincible (or at least they think they are).
waiting 20/200/2000 years and blowing Sovereing's cover etc makes no difference: they will win easily no matter what.
[/quote]
I'm not contradicting yourself.
ME3 is contradicting ME1.
In ME3 reapers shown as completely invicible.
And, of course, there is no risk for them in ME3, but, there is completely no need for Sovereign to act either. Attack on the Citadel just happened, because reasons.
Of
course, if reapers were like they were in ME1 - then there would be
risk of exposure. But it doesn't matter, in ME1 reapers were trapped in
dark space, and that was the reason why Sovereign acted so boldly.
[quote]
it's only a matter of cost and reward. They are machines, they think "mathematically".

the
citadel trap ensures many advantages. Some of them we know, some of
them we may assume (for example, a less expansive travel).

if the citadal trap fails, some of  these advantages are lost.

as
these advantages are lost, a direct attack to the citadel may have
become simply inconvenient, at least in the first months of the war. Not
difficult or dangerous... simply inconvenient.
[/quote]
This makes no sense.
Relays closed - war instantly won, losses minimal.
Relays not closed - war is won, losses maximal.
[quote]
[quote]Reapers
arrived at full strength, and easily crushed any opposition. Given such
superiority, there is no reason for them to have Citadel trap.[/quote]

Sovereing
easily crushed the military opposition too, but all sovereing did in
ME1 was in order to infiltrate Saren, lock the relay and prevent the
closure (and the re-opening once the sovereing has taken direct control)
of the arms.
[/quote]
Please.
Reapers are not invulnerable, that is entire reason why Citadel was not taken right before rachni wars by Sovereign alone.
Vigil's said that also.
[quote]
if the citadel close the arms, it becomes a lot harder to take.
[/quote]
Does not matter for reapers. They took Citadel easily in ME3.
[quote]
there
is no reason not to assume that also in ME3 reapers were a bit
concerned about the closure of the arms. And we don't know how exaclty
the citadel was taken, how easy and costlles it was for the reapers. 

the citadel fall quickly, that's all we can say. Quickly =/= easily
[/quote]
Please.
Reapers beat every fleet easily. No fleets = no opposition.
This means that if Citadel was closed, they were just sitting around, and shooting at it.
This took few days at maximum, hence Citadel being taken was a surprise for Shepard.
And this, comrade, means - reapers took Citadel quickly and easily.
[quote]
[quote]We know that Citadel was taken, and taken quickly, exactly when they needed.[/quote]

you're missing the point...

1. the citadel can be taken ANYTIME. No exceptions. I agree.
2. the citadel ensure some advantages... some of them are still obtainable, others are gone
3. taking the citadel with closed arms is a lot harder than taking the citadel with open arms

in ME1 advantages > costs and risks
in ME3 advantages < costs and risks

evidently,
surprise/shock effect + avoid a 6 months travel + more chances to
prevent the closure of the arms during the attack (advantages that
cannot be obtained anymore) were worth wainting some years and risking
the sovereing.
On the contrary, taking the citadel during ME3 wasn't
worth a direct attack. It is under allert, infiltration isn't easy, a
siege could be inconvenient, a lot of advantages as lost anyway.

trade off.
[/quote]
No.
Entire possibility of relays being locked - means minimum losses for reapers.
Relays not being locked - means maximum losses for reapers.
As for shock - easily taking council center - is a shock enough.
[quote]
[quote]Sure, cost of beating isolated packets of resistance is much higher than beating entire combined fleet of the galaxy.[/quote]

it can be. Sometimes the cost of a single resolutive battle is lower than costant guerrilla warfare.
turians achieved their best victories with suicide attacks and guerrila tactics, not with huge battles.
[/quote]
And of course it is completely unrelated to a topic.
To fight war in space - you need infrastructure. And it is completely destroyed by the reapers.
And guerrila tactics, of course, especially effective with turned off mass relays, right
[quote]
and
you're arbitrary overestimating the lock-relays strategy. Reapers will
win no matter what, and if the only situation where they could suffer
relevant losses (nothing too serious, but still losses) is attacking a
closed and well protected citadel, they will wait.
[/quote]
Well protected by small portion of those fleets, which said reapers easily beaten in all battles.
Sure.
They were entrenched
[quote]
[quote]Nothing
can stop reapers, as they was portrayed in ME3, in direct combat. They
took the Citadel, and no one would ever stand a chance of taking it
back.

Please.
ME civilizations are built around mass relays.
Take this away - and they are already destroyed - colonies and outposts
die out, economics collapse.
Add to that inability to join fleets - and they can't even fight back.

This does not make any sense.
Instead
of separating fleets and attack one target with full might of the
reapers fleets, - thus lowering losses, - they scattered their fleets to
fight everyone at once, spreading thin and giving chances of local
victories, and thus increasing their losses.[/quote]


again,
you're arbitrary understimanting the costs of a direct attack to the
citadel and the costs of a siege if the arms are closed, and
overstimating the "local victories".
[/quote]
And what cost would that be, exactly?
Loss of some reapers armaments? Which being just magnetoactive metals, btw. Or wards fighting back?
Sure. That will be their downfall. There is no such metals in the galaxy.

[quote]
you're creating a nonsensical scenario starting from likely and believable implicit premises. That's a fallacy.
you
should try to create a rational scenario starting from different
implict premises, even if they are less likely and believable. Of course
they have to be reasonable, but not necessay the "most reasonable"
[/quote]
Sure sure.

[/quote]
1. HA HA HA! You twit! That's them JUST FINISHING THEIR TRIP!!
THAT'S THE END OF THEIR TREAK THROUGH DARK SPACE, NOT THE START!
They're supposed to JUST be coming OUT of Dark Space after TWO YEARS travaling through it, NOT JUST STARTING THEN AND THERE. GOD , HOW MUCH OF THE LORE ARE YOU GOING TO MISREAD?!.

2. Again. Dozens of dead Reapers. Slogging through the races. And at the end, BEATEN BY THE CRUCIBLE.
If they had used the Citadel trap, the races would have NEVER been able to do ANYTHING, and they could have leasurly picked them off, instead of having to go against orginized resistance.
No Crucible, because they would never have found it. So, looking back on THAT conviently missed detail of yours, can you STILL say that losing the Citadel Trap wasn't a problem, given that had it worked, they wouldn't have LOST via Crucible?
And again, that vid of yours shows them JUST NOW ARRIVING. NOT beginning the trip. ARRIVING from it.
You can check the ME wiki for information, and source material that  PROVES they had JUST ARRIVED  from Dark Space. THAT'S what the image represented.

3. As shown above, you are contridicting yourself.
Or rather, your misinterpertation/lack of lore comprehension is
contridicting you ideas of ME1 and ME3.
And Reasons? You mean Like:
(a)Cuttiung off the head of the main government?
(b)Bringing all in Reapers to the galaxy instantly?
©Destroying the core of the main galactic fleet?
(d)Locking down all the relays to leave them isolated and unable to fight back effectively?
(e)Panicing them with the shock of the attack, so that they are too paralyzed to do anything constructive?
(f)Instant access to all the classified information regarding the majority of the governments cultures, battle stratiges and weaknesses?
(g)It will take THREE YEARS to come over conventonally, and there will be unforseen losses by doing so?
(h) all of the above?
THOSE REASONS?
Sovergien had a fleet of geth soaking up the fire. It was impervious to ship attack once safely inside the Citadel arms.
HOW THE HELL WAS THIS SUICIDAL?
If not for ONE PERSON (Shepard) IT WOULD HAVE HAD NO CHANCE OF FAILING.
By that time, if Sovergien HAD suceeded, the Reapers would be pouring
through, and exposure would NO LONGER BE A PROBLEM. Your acting like
Sovergien THOUGHT it was going to die. That's the LAST thing it ever
expected to happen.

4. Aren't you completely forgeting the Crucible?
If
the Relays were locked down, there would have been no chance of 
victory. The Crucible would never have even been discovered. The cycle
would have ended then and there.
And you solely overestimate the
Reapers.  They took dozens of losses on Palaven to GROUND FORCES. (okay,
suicide squads, but still) and they ARE taking losses the galaxy over,
so the war isn't as hopeless as you think.

5. That's what the
GETH were for. To soak up fire so that it could get through unschathed.
Also, as I recall, no Reaper has ever fought without a proxy army (geth,
husks, Collectors)
So no, they aren't as all-powerful as you think.

6. Only because the Illusive Man went there personally.
Think about it: They only take the Citadel now, at the exact same time the Illusive Man goes there personally and sends them data from there?
You really don't see a connection?
He
became Saren 2.0 and did what Saren failed to do: Sabotage the Citadel
so the Reapers could take it. That's the ONLY way the Reapers could have
taken the Citadel without damaging the station.
And AGAIN, you are making blind assumptions that taking something fast means taking something easily. It does not.
Actually THINK about this stuff.

7. Codex "Reaper Vunrebilaties" seems to disprove that. So does "The Miracle on Palaven."

And LOL. WHAT?
The
Reapers fire on the Citadel? Have you been smoking something? The Citadel is their pride and joy. It's where their master and commander - their galvanizing thought process-overlord is trapped in stasis. It's where the key to shutting down the attack is by seizing the relay network. You ACTUALLY think that they would risk damaging it in ANY WAY? Again, the Illsuive Man being on the Citadel when it happened is too concidental. And you, AS ALWAYS, have ABSOLUTLY NO PROOF OF HOW MUCH DAMAGE THE REAPERS DID OR DID NOT TAKE ATTACKING THE CITADEL THIS TIME.
So NO. What you said is NOT proof that it was quick and easy. JUST quick.

8. First off, AGAIN, it was a three year trip. That right there is a problem for them.
Again, attcking the Citadel wasn't till after the Illusive Man was there. If they could have taken it sooner, I doubt they would have waited.

9. Look at Somalia. They drove the amarican army out. They took more losses, but they still technacally won.
It may/may not have been for the better, but they got what they wanted.
They were isolated, had no infrastructure, and no real military, and no advanced weapons. But they still technically won.
And the Relays WERE still active, remember? That was all thanks to Shepard.

10. YES THEY WERE. Entrenched inside the Cidadel Arms.
They only attacked after the Illsuive Man went there personally
(Translation: He did what Saren failed at and prevented them from closing the arms)
THINK FOR ONCE.

11. LOOK at Palaven. A dozen suicide squads brought down dozens of Reapers -Destroyers, Sovergien-class and harvester.
A single Cain launcher brought down a Hades Cannon, which is a Destroyer with a gun mounted on it. A single Javilan missle killed a Destroyer.  A group of frigates can kill a Sovergien-class. The fleets have thanix cannons mounted on EVERYTHING from FIGHTERS up.
And the wards fighting back makes PERFECT sence, as damaging the Citadel isTHE ABSOLUTE LAST THING THEY WANT. THINK FOR ONCE.

12. No retort, or proof of otherwise

Modifié par silverexile17s, 31 janvier 2013 - 07:13 .

[kal_reegar]

 [quote]Really?[/quote]

yes, really.

harbringer is already active and bright, and so the reaper in bottom-right corner and the other one on the left...
we don't see the reapers fleet turning on, it's a light effect coming from ahead, not behind.

[quote]Except reapers don't need crew, and don't have one.[/quote]

not discharging will cause also electronic and bulkheads damages. I'm sure that the reapers have countermeasures and a lot of eezo, but still, a 6 months FTL travel is no joke.

[quote]And of course, reapers arrived at full strength, and with that strength they never needed Citadel trap. That was a very bad retcon in ME3.[/quote]

they don't NEED the citadel or the citadel trap. There is no necessity. I agree.
it's just useful. With the citadel trap, the invasion is more effective in many ways.

machines don't do lazy reasoning... "i don't really need the citadel trap, so who cares, do not waste time and let's attack directly: even if is less effective, we will win easily anyway".
That's how a WWI human general could reason, not a reaper.

[quote]In ME3 reapers shown as completely invicible.
And, of course, there is no risk for them in ME3, but, there is completely no need for Sovereign to act either. Attack on the Citadel just happened, because reasons.
Of course, if reapers were like they were in ME1 - then there would be risk of exposure. But it doesn't matter, in ME1 reapers were trapped in dark space, and that was the reason why Sovereign acted so boldly.[/quote]

again, the fact that they are invincible doesn't mean that they are willing to suffer more losses than what it is striclty necessary to complete the cycle.
even if remain invincibile and these "surplus" losses would be de facto irrelevant.

[quote]This makes no sense.
Relays closed - war instantly won, losses minimal.
Relays not closed - war is won, losses maximal.[/quote]

no, it's more like
citadel trap (ME1) -> war instantly won, minimal losses
relays not closed -> war is won, medium losses
citadel direct attack in order to close the relays -> war instantly won, but high risk (let's say 30%) of maximal losses. Can be done immediatly.
citadel indirect attack in order to close the relays -> war instantly won, mininal losses. 0% risk of losses. A few months to organize it required (cerberus/udina coup d'etat) though

so in the end they have to decide between a few months of medium losses and the risk of maximal losses


I can't prove it of course, but neither you can't disprove it.
We can just assume it in order to make the reapers strategy rational, from ME to ME3


[quote]Reapers are not invulnerable, that is entire reason why Citadel was not taken right before rachni wars by Sovereign alone.
Vigil's said that also.[quote]

yes, that's what I've said.. Sovereing didn't want to be forced to a fight outside (or inside) the citadel.
that's why Sovereign need Saren to take control of citadel and it's arms.

without Saren infiltration, the citadel would have been sealed. .
around 0.40

[quote]Does not matter for reapers. They took Citadel easily in ME3.[/quote]

yes it does because their are machine and efficiency matter, and again: we don't know if they took the citadel easily.

[quote]Please.
Reapers beat every fleet easily. No fleets = no opposition.
This means that if Citadel was closed, they were just sitting around, and shooting at it.
This took few days at maximum, hence Citadel being taken was a surprise for Shepard.
And this, comrade, means - reapers took Citadel quickly and easily.[/quote]

citadel closed + citadel defence system activated + fleet -> it is not like "beat a fleet in the space"
fallacy. Wrong use of the analogy argument, we don't know how "easy" was taking the citadel with a direct attack.
we don't even know if it was a direct attack (see reaperized Tim ****ing around the presidium)

[quote]No.
Entire possibility of relays being locked - means minimum losses for reapers.
Relays not being locked - means maximum losses for reapers.
As for shock - easily taking council center - is a shock enough.[/quote]

see above. 3 months of medium losses or the risk of heavier losses?

[quote]And of course it is completely unrelated to a topic.
To fight war in space - you need infrastructure. And it is completely destroyed by the reapers.[/quote]

I don't see the point. You need infrastructure to keep fighting in the space for a long time, but the war is just began and there a lot of fleets around. Fleets that don't need infrastructure on the short term, because they were build before the war.


see above for the rest too.

[silverexile17s]

[quote]kal_reegar wrote...

 [quote]Really?[/quote]

yes, really.

harbringer is already active and bright, and so the reaper in bottom-right corner and the other one on the left...
we don't see the reapers fleet turning on, it's a light effect coming from ahead, not behind.

[quote]Except reapers don't need crew, and don't have one.[/quote]

not discharging will cause also electronic and bulkheads damages. I'm sure that the reapers have countermeasures and a lot of eezo, but still, a 6 months FTL travel is no joke.

[quote]And of course, reapers arrived at full strength, and with that strength they never needed Citadel trap. That was a very bad retcon in ME3.[/quote]

they don't NEED the citadel or the citadel trap. There is no necessity. I agree.
it's just useful. With the citadel trap, the invasion is more effective in many ways.

machines don't do lazy reasoning... "i don't really need the citadel trap, so who cares, do not waste time and let's attack directly: even if is less effective, we will win easily anyway".
That's how a WWI human general could reason, not a reaper.

[quote]In ME3 reapers shown as completely invicible.
[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">And, of course, there is no risk for them in ME3, but, ]there is completely no need for Sovereign to act either[/color][color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">. Attack on the Citadel just ]happened[/color][color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">, because ]reasons[/color].
Of course, if reapers were like they were in ME1 - then there would be risk of exposure. But it doesn't matter, in ME1 reapers were trapped in dark space, and that was the reason why Sovereign acted so boldly.[/quote]

again, the fact that they are invincible doesn't mean that they are willing to suffer more losses than what it is striclty necessary to complete the cycle.
even if remain invincibile and these "surplus" losses would be de facto irrelevant.

[quote]This makes no sense.
Relays closed - war instantly won, losses minimal.
Relays not closed - war is won, losses maximal.[/quote]

no, it's more like
citadel trap (ME1) -> war instantly won, minimal losses
relays not closed -> war is won, medium losses
citadel direct attack in order to close the relays -> war instantly won, but high risk (let's say 30%) of maximal losses. Can be done immediatly.
citadel indirect attack in order to close the relays -> war instantly won, mininal losses. 0% risk of losses. A few months to organize it required (cerberus/udina coup d'etat) though

so in the end they have to decide between a few months of medium losses and the risk of maximal losses


I can't prove it of course, but neither you can't disprove it.
We can just assume it in order to make the reapers strategy rational, from ME to ME3


[quote]Reapers are not invulnerable, that is entire reason why Citadel was not taken right before rachni wars by Sovereign alone.
Vigil's said that also.[quote]

yes, that's what I've said.. Sovereing didn't want to be forced to a fight outside (or inside) the citadel.
that's why Sovereign need Saren to take control of citadel and it's arms.

without Saren infiltration, the citadel would have been sealed. .
around 0.40

[quote]Does not matter for reapers. They took Citadel easily in ME3.[/quote]

yes it does because their are machine and efficiency matter, and again: we don't know if they took the citadel easily.

[quote]Please.
Reapers beat every fleet easily. No fleets = no opposition.
This means that if Citadel was closed, they were just sitting around, and shooting at it.
This took few days at maximum, hence Citadel being taken was a surprise for Shepard.
[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">And this, comrade, means - reapers took Citadel ]quickly[/color][color=rgb(170, 170, 170)"> ]and[/color][color=rgb(170, 170, 170)"> ]easily[/color].[/quote]

citadel closed + citadel defence system activated + fleet -> it is not like "beat a fleet in the space"
fallacy. Wrong use of the analogy argument, we don't know how "easy" was taking the citadel with a direct attack.
we don't even know if it was a direct attack (see reaperized Tim ****ing around the presidium)

[quote]No.
Entire possibility of relays being locked - means minimum losses for reapers.
Relays not being locked - means maximum losses for reapers.
As for shock - easily taking council center - is a shock enough.[/quote]

see above. 3 months of medium losses or the risk of heavier losses?

[quote]And of course it is completely unrelated to a topic.
To fight war in space - you need infrastructure. And it is completely destroyed by the reapers.[/quote]

I don't see the point. You need infrastructure to keep fighting in the space for a long time, but the war is just began and there a lot of fleets around. Fleets that don't need infrastructure on the short term, because they were build before the war.


see above for the rest too.


[/quote] Silverexile17s: MY QOUTE STARTS HERE.
Also, it's actually confirmed that the Reapers were JUST THEN arriving from Dark Space. That WASN'T the beginning of their trek from Dark Space. That was their ARRIVAL from it. They'd been traveling for THREE YEARS over Dark Space. NOT six months. Proof in on the ME wiki, with sources avalible.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 30 janvier 2013 - 11:00 .