352 réponses à ce sujet

[Maxster_]

[quote]kal_reegar wrote...

 [quote]Really?[/quote]

yes, really.

harbringer is already active and bright, and so the reaper in bottom-right corner and the other one on the left...
we don't see the reapers fleet turning on, it's a light effect coming from ahead, not behind.
[/quote]
Well, you can pretend that never happened, either way Sovereign's attack makes no sense even without existence of Catalyst.

[quote]
[quote]Except reapers don't need crew, and don't have one.[/quote]

not discharging will cause also electronic and bulkheads damages. I'm sure that the reapers have countermeasures and a lot of eezo, but still, a 6 months FTL travel is no joke.
[/quote]
Doesn't matters.
It is implied that reapers don't need to discharge core. Exactly by this possiblity.
There is no planets in dark space.
[quote]
[quote]And of course, reapers arrived at full strength, and with that strength they never needed Citadel trap. That was a very bad retcon in ME3.[/quote]

they don't NEED the citadel or the citadel trap. There is no necessity. I agree.
it's just useful. With the citadel trap, the invasion is more effective in many ways.

machines don't do lazy reasoning... "i don't really need the citadel trap, so who cares, do not waste time and let's attack directly: even if is less effective, we will win easily anyway".
That's how a WWI human general could reason, not a reaper.
[/quote]
Sure
Being so powerful, and able to just travel from dark space in a short time - they never needed Citadel trap. Why would they even waste time making it, being machines?
[quote]

[quote]In ME3 reapers shown as completely invicible.
[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">And, of course, there is no risk for them in ME3, but, ]there is completely no need for Sovereign to act either[/color][color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">. Attack on the Citadel just ]happened[/color][color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">, because ]reasons[/color].
Of course, if reapers were like they were in ME1 - then there would be risk of exposure. But it doesn't matter, in ME1 reapers were trapped in dark space, and that was the reason why Sovereign acted so boldly.[/quote]

again, the fact that they are invincible doesn't mean that they are willing to suffer more losses than what it is striclty necessary to complete the cycle.
even if remain invincibile and these "surplus" losses would be de facto irrelevant.
[/quote]
Reapers strategy makes no sense anyway, in ME3.
Especially when they actually make less than one reaper per cycle.
If they'd cared about losses - they would never risk actual reapers in combat, and used synthetic ships instead.
Anyway, you completely missed the point.
[quote]
[quote]This makes no sense.
Relays closed - war instantly won, losses minimal.
Relays not closed - war is won, losses maximal.[/quote]

no, it's more like
citadel trap (ME1) -> war instantly won, minimal losses
relays not closed -> war is won, medium losses
citadel direct attack in order to close the relays -> war instantly won, but high risk (let's say 30%) of maximal losses. Can be done immediatly.
[/quote]
This is nonsense.
What losses would that be, when fleets are protecting homeworlds?
Anyway, instant march from batarian space - Citadel easily taken, fleets cut off.
Scattering own forces and spreading them thin to ensure own losses - makes absolutely no sense.
[quote]
citadel indirect attack in order to close the relays -> war instantly won, mininal losses. 0% risk of losses. A few months to organize it required (cerberus/udina coup d'etat) though
[/quote]
No.
You are just ignoring ME3 events.
Reapers already suffered maximum losses possible, when they attacked everyone at once.
[quote]
so in the end they have to decide between a few months of medium losses and the risk of maximal losses
[/quote]
No. That was an example of forging of "evidence", or, to be precise - fitting solution for already set answer.
[quote]
I can't prove it of course, but neither you can't disprove it.
[/quote]
I already did that.

[quote]
[quote]Reapers are not invulnerable, that is entire reason why Citadel was not taken right before rachni wars by Sovereign alone.
Vigil's said that also.[/quote]

yes, that's what I've said.. Sovereing didn't want to be forced to a fight outside (or inside) the citadel.
that's why Sovereign need Saren to take control of citadel and it's arms.

without Saren infiltration, the citadel would have been sealed. .
around 0.40
[/quote]
You are missing the point again.
Sovereign was alone, and he could not take Citadel on it's own. That is the reason why he was scheming for thousands of years.
And if reapers could just fly into a galaxy in half a year, losing completely nothing - there is no reason for Sovereign to do anything.
He could just send signal for reapers and wait for them.
And if, in your headcanon, reapers already flew into a galaxy for thousands of years(bringing relay with them no less), - there is no reason for Sovereign to do anything either. Especially attack Citadel when reapers are arriving within 0.5-3 years.

[quote]
[quote]Does not matter for reapers. They took Citadel easily in ME3.[/quote]

yes it does because their are machine and efficiency matter, and again: we don't know if they took the citadel easily.
[/quote]
We do know that they took all planets easily, and crushed every fleet easily.
We do know, that they could took Citadel quickly and easily any time they wanted.
So stop pretending that reapers couldn't take Citadel with less fleet coverage of the same fleets they already easily beaten.
[quote]
[quote]Please.
Reapers beat every fleet easily. No fleets = no opposition.
This means that if Citadel was closed, they were just sitting around, and shooting at it.
This took few days at maximum, hence Citadel being taken was a surprise for Shepard.
[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">And this, comrade, means - reapers took Citadel ]quickly[/color][color=rgb(170, 170, 170)"> ]and[/color][color=rgb(170, 170, 170)"> ]easily[/color].[/quote]

citadel closed + citadel defence system activated + fleet -> it is not like "beat a fleet in the space"
[/quote]
Lol.
What is that "citadel defence system" you just asspulled to "prove" your "point", btw?
No doubt, that magical asspull is stronger than entire turian fleet.
[quote]
fallacy. Wrong use of the analogy argument, we don't know how "easy" was taking the citadel with a direct attack.
we don't even know if it was a direct attack (see reaperized Tim ****ing around the presidium)
[/quote]
Oh yes, we know exactly that Citadel could be easily taken. Because homeworlds, which were much more protected by races fleets - were easily taken, and fleets defending them - were easily beaten.
And all that was done by only portion of full reaper fleet. So, direct attack of the Citadel by full reapers fleet - is actually far easier than attack of Palaven, Earth and Thessia.
[quote]
[quote]No.
Entire possibility of relays being locked - means minimum losses for reapers.
Relays not being locked - means maximum losses for reapers.
As for shock - easily taking council center - is a shock enough.[/quote]

see above. 3 months of medium losses or the risk of heavier losses?
[/quote]
I already debunked your forging of "evidence".
[quote]
[quote]And of course it is completely unrelated to a topic.
To fight war in space - you need infrastructure. And it is completely destroyed by the reapers.[/quote]

I don't see the point. You need infrastructure to keep fighting in the space for a long time, but the war is just began and there a lot of fleets around. Fleets that don't need infrastructure on the short term, because they were build before the war.

[/quote]
Of course you don't.
You have no idea what guerilla warfare is.
Reapers have no logistics, no supply lines. You can not hurt them this way.
And you can not hide from them without active mass relay network.

Modifié par Maxster_, 31 janvier 2013 - 08:15 .

[kal_reegar]

ok, I surrender. All your answer are more or less flawed. For three reasons.

First, evidently you are genetically unable to understand the difference between "need", "necessity" "lack of alternatives" and "useful" "more efficient" "preferable" "advantageus".
You are missing the essential requirement to understand the reapers (and synthetics in general) so it's useless to argue about that.

Second, if you want to understand the reapers strategy, you need to stop assuming arbitrarily that "this was easy" "this was maximal losses" "this is important for the reapers" "this isn't important for the reapers" "a sealed citadel is easy to take than palaven" etc... The only evindece you have to support these statements is your fervid imagination. Nothing bad, but if it leads to nonsensical scenarios, well... you should try to imagine something different.

Third, as silverexile said, you need to study the lore. For example, the miracle at Palaven and how turians manage to destroy some reapers. SPOILER: not in battle.


Not your fault, anyway. Genes and imagination are powerful forces.
But I suspect that many things don't make sense for you, not only the ME trilogy...

[JBPBRC]

Except reapers don't need crew, and don't have one.

Completely unrelated to the conversation at hand but...

Did Sovereign *really* let Saren, who by his own admission is nothing but a genetic mutation and an accident, install a chair in him? Does the Vanguard of the Reapers have no dignity?

Modifié par JBPBRC, 31 janvier 2013 - 09:22 .

[Maxster_]

kal_reegar wrote...

ok, I surrender. All your answer are more or less flawed. For three reasons.

First, evidently you are genetically unable to understand the difference between "need", "necessity" "lack of alternatives" and "useful" "more efficient" "preferable" "advantageus".
You are missing the essential requirement to understand the reapers (and synthetics in general) so it's useless to argue about that.

Sure.
Especially when you are saying, that spreading your forces thin to attack everyone at once is preferable to a strike of full forces at one target at a time, with no ability for enemy to join or relocate forces.

Indeed, there is no point to discuss strategy with you.

Second, if you want to understand the reapers strategy, you need to stop assuming arbitrarily that "this was easy" "this was maximal losses" "this is important for the reapers" "this isn't important for the reapers" "a sealed citadel is easy to take than palaven" etc... The only evindece you have to support these statements is your fervid imagination. Nothing bad, but if it leads to nonsensical scenarios, well... you should try to imagine something different.

Sure.
Especially funny when you doing it yourself, while accusing me of doing so.
Not to mention, that you deliberately ignore codex entries and events in ME3, while pretending that there is no evidence of reapers strength and strategy.

And of course, "proving" your "point" with made up evidence, is far better. So what was that "Citadel defence system" asspull?

Third, as silverexile said, you need to study the lore. For example, the miracle at Palaven and how turians manage to destroy some reapers. SPOILER: not in battle.

Lol.
Turians, in comparison to Hackett's retarded twin, used standart military tactics of ME universe.
And that was battle, real space battle like it described even in ME1 codex about space combat(multiple entries). And reapers instantly covered that with, again, standart military tactics - they attacked planet directly.
That was a real space battle, not that garbage cutscenes in ME3.
And that battle was lost.

And for "miracle of Palaven" - it was only possible because reapers went full retard. In ME universe, ground forces without space superiority, is a dead meat, opened for precision orbital strikes. Without any chances of anything. Just target practice.

Yes, there is no ground solution for a space problem in MEU. It was known from the start(ME1).
You have no fleet - you are dead.

And of course, that "example" is completely unrelated to attack at the Citadel. There is no infantry in space. There is no trenches in space.
If you have no fleet - you can not defend the Citadel.

Not your fault, anyway. Genes and imagination are powerful forces.
But I suspect that many things don't make sense for you, not only the ME trilogy...

I like that one. Especially "genes" part.

Modifié par Maxster_, 31 janvier 2013 - 09:48 .

[Maxster_]

JBPBRC wrote...

Except reapers don't need crew, and don't have one.

Completely unrelated to the conversation at hand but...

Did Sovereign *really* let Saren, who by his own admission is nothing but a genetic mutation and an accident, install a chair in him? Does the Vanguard of the Reapers have no dignity?

What dignity you are talking about? Reapers are just mindless pawns of the Catalyst. Catalyst says - Sovereign complies.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Maxster_ wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

That depends on the state of Citadel's security.
Of which we know only that it is numerous, and there is a fleet guarding the Citadel.
Council chamber is not accessible to anyone, and with high probability guarded with security forces.
As for taking council aboard the Sovereign - this doesn't make any sense, ship like that would be immediately attacked by the fleet. It is not like some turian frigate.
And for indoctrinated followers - depends of the state of the C-Sec, he can't just take them all to a council chamber.
He couldn't take them even to presidium, which is also restricted area, and guarded by C-Sec.
And to break through Citadel fleet, Sovereign needed a large geth fleet.

Got Benezia the Matriarch -> have her invite another matriarch to discuss flowers and cool weird dreadnoughts i found -> gradually indoctrinate more important matriarchs -> invite Tevos for secret matriarchal consultations -> own Thessia

Got Saren the Turian -> invite an important turian for secret week-long spectre stuff -> get more important turians, crawling up the Hierarchy -> eventually get the Primarch -> invite Turian Councilor -> own Palaven

Got Saren the Spectre-> invite a spectre/important C-sec person/STG for a secret mission -> get more important people -> own Citadel

Got Sovereign -> invite important scientists to study teh cool ancient ship in secret -> have them invite important people to see what they found -> if anyone is skeptical just have him/her come over for a week or two to see for themselves how cool and harmless it all is.

At this point, Sovereign is basically the Council flagship and can fly around the Citadel unmolested like Destiny Ascension.

Indoctrination does not work that way.
That way you'll only get mindless zombies, incapable of sustaining themselves.

Sure it does. See Saren, Benezia and their Asari commandoes. Just stay near Sovereign for a week or two for any reason and voila. Go with victims on a "secret mission". Pleasure cruise. Family reunion. Jump into a remote location and fake an engine malfunction. Options are limitless.

[Maxster_]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

That depends on the state of Citadel's security.
Of which we know only that it is numerous, and there is a fleet guarding the Citadel.
Council chamber is not accessible to anyone, and with high probability guarded with security forces.
As for taking council aboard the Sovereign - this doesn't make any sense, ship like that would be immediately attacked by the fleet. It is not like some turian frigate.
And for indoctrinated followers - depends of the state of the C-Sec, he can't just take them all to a council chamber.
He couldn't take them even to presidium, which is also restricted area, and guarded by C-Sec.
And to break through Citadel fleet, Sovereign needed a large geth fleet.

Got Benezia the Matriarch -> have her invite another matriarch to discuss flowers and cool weird dreadnoughts i found -> gradually indoctrinate more important matriarchs -> invite Tevos for secret matriarchal consultations -> own Thessia

Got Saren the Turian -> invite an important turian for secret week-long spectre stuff -> get more important turians, crawling up the Hierarchy -> eventually get the Primarch -> invite Turian Councilor -> own Palaven

Got Saren the Spectre-> invite a spectre/important C-sec person/STG for a secret mission -> get more important people -> own Citadel

Got Sovereign -> invite important scientists to study teh cool ancient ship in secret -> have them invite important people to see what they found -> if anyone is skeptical just have him/her come over for a week or two to see for themselves how cool and harmless it all is.

At this point, Sovereign is basically the Council flagship and can fly around the Citadel unmolested like Destiny Ascension.

Indoctrination does not work that way.
That way you'll only get mindless zombies, incapable of sustaining themselves.

Sure it does. See Saren, Benezia and their Asari commandoes. Just stay near Sovereign for a week or two for any reason and voila. Go with victims on a "secret mission". Pleasure cruise. Family reunion. Jump into a remote location and fake an engine malfunction. Options are limitless.

Sure

Got Benezia the Matriarch -> have her invite another matriarch to
discuss flowers and cool weird dreadnoughts i found -> gradually
indoctrinate more important matriarchs -> invite Tevos for secret
matriarchal consultations -> own Thessia

Capture and hold matriarch for several weeks - no one will ever notice.
Then you get mindless matriarch incapable of independent thought and unable to sustain herself - no one will ever notice.
Or, you can implant her with reapers implants - no one will ever notice.

Kidnap more matriarchs - no asari will suspect anything. They are all dumb anyway. That is how they ensured  thousands of years of dominance.

Got Saren the Turian -> invite an important turian for secret
week-long spectre stuff -> get more important turians, crawling up
the Hierarchy -> eventually get the Primarch -> invite Turian
Councilor -> own Palaven

Sure, warlike and cautious turians will never suspect anything - especially mindless zombies incapable of even feeding themselves.
Especially funny when no sane person, especially turian, would even trust a spectre. A member of organisation, which, as you know, above the law, and only answers to the council.

More funny, of course, that no one would even notice that Sovereign is unknown alien ship, with superior technology. Definitely not suspicious at all.

Got Sovereign -> invite important scientists to study teh cool
ancient ship in secret -> have them invite important people to see
what they found -> if anyone is skeptical just have him/her come over
for a week or two to see for themselves how cool and harmless it all
is.

Sure, that worked perfectly for Cerberus team on derelict reaper.
Anyway, mindless zombies are definitely not suspicious. Obvious.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Maxster_ wrote...

Capture and hold matriarch for several weeks - no one will ever notice.

Invite, not capture. Stop misreading what I wrote. Have here be there out of her free will. Benezia is a powerful Matriarch, she can come up with plausible reasons.

Maxster_ wrote...

Sure, warlike and cautious turians will never suspect anything - especially mindless zombies incapable of even feeding themselves.

Mindless like Saren and Benezia. Are you even reading the same page?

Maxster_ wrote...
Especially funny when no sane person, especially turian, would even trust a spectre. A member of organisation, which, as you know, above the law, and only answers to the council.

...

We played different games.

[Maxster_]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Capture and hold matriarch for several weeks - no one will ever notice.

Invite, not capture. Stop misreading what I wrote. Have here be there out of her free will. Benezia is a powerful Matriarch, she can come up with plausible reasons.

Maxster_ wrote...

Sure, warlike and cautious turians will never suspect anything - especially mindless zombies incapable of even feeding themselves.

Mindless like Saren and Benezia. Are you even reading the same page?

Maxster_ wrote...
Especially funny when no sane person, especially turian, would even trust a spectre. A member of organisation, which, as you know, above the law, and only answers to the council.

...

We played different games.

Reapers: Indoctrination


Reaper "indoctrination" is an insidious means of corrupting organic
minds, "reprogramming" the brain through physical and psychological
conditioning using electromagnetic fields, infrasonic and ultrasonic
noise, and other subliminal methods. The Reaper's resulting control over
the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its
suggestions.
Organics undergoing indoctrination may complain of headaches and
buzzing or ringing in their ears. As time passes, they have feelings of
"being watched" and hallucinations of "ghostly" presences. Ultimately,
the Reaper gains the ability to use the victim's body to amplify its
signals, manifesting as "alien" voices in the mind.
Indoctrination can create perfect deep cover agents. A Reaper's
"suggestions" can manipulate victims into betraying friends, trusting
enemies, or viewing the Reaper itself with superstitious awe. Should a
Reaper subvert a well-placed political or military leader, the resulting
chaos can bring down nations.
Long-term physical effects of the manipulation are unsustainable,
Higher mental functioning decays, ultimately leaving the victim a
gibbering animal. Rapid indoctrination is possible, but causes this
decay in days or weeks. Slow, patient indoctrination allows the thrall
to last for months or years.

Saren was undergoing indoctrination process for almost 20 years.
That is why he is not a mumbling zombie.

[silverexile17s]

[quote]Maxster_ wrote...

[quote]kal_reegar wrote...

 [quote]Really?[/quote]

yes, really.

harbringer is already active and bright, and so the reaper in bottom-right corner and the other one on the left...
we don't see the reapers fleet turning on, it's a light effect coming from ahead, not behind.
[/quote]
Well, you can pretend that never happened, either way Sovereign's attack makes no sense even without existence of Catalyst.

[quote]
[quote]Except reapers don't need crew, and don't have one.[/quote]

not discharging will cause also electronic and bulkheads damages. I'm sure that the reapers have countermeasures and a lot of eezo, but still, a 6 months FTL travel is no joke.
[/quote]
Doesn't matters.
It is implied that reapers don't need to discharge core. Exactly by this possiblity.
There is no planets in dark space.
[quote]
[quote]And of course, reapers arrived at full strength, and with that strength they never needed Citadel trap. That was a very bad retcon in ME3.[/quote]

they don't NEED the citadel or the citadel trap. There is no necessity. I agree.
it's just useful. With the citadel trap, the invasion is more effective in many ways.

machines don't do lazy reasoning... "i don't really need the citadel trap, so who cares, do not waste time and let's attack directly: even if is less effective, we will win easily anyway".
That's how a WWI human general could reason, not a reaper.
[/quote]
Sure
Being so powerful, and able to just travel from dark space in a short time - they never needed Citadel trap. Why would they even waste time making it, being machines?
[quote]

[quote]In ME3 reapers shown as completely invicible.
[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">And, of course, there is no risk for them in ME3, but, ]there is completely no need for Sovereign to act either[/color][color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">. Attack on the Citadel just ]happened[/color][color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">, because ]reasons[/color].
Of course, if reapers were like they were in ME1 - then there would be risk of exposure. But it doesn't matter, in ME1 reapers were trapped in dark space, and that was the reason why Sovereign acted so boldly.[/quote]

again, the fact that they are invincible doesn't mean that they are willing to suffer more losses than what it is striclty necessary to complete the cycle.
even if remain invincibile and these "surplus" losses would be de facto irrelevant.
[/quote]
Reapers strategy makes no sense anyway, in ME3.
Especially when they actually make less than one reaper per cycle.
If they'd cared about losses - they would never risk actual reapers in combat, and used synthetic ships instead.
Anyway, you completely missed the point.
[quote]
[quote]This makes no sense.
Relays closed - war instantly won, losses minimal.
Relays not closed - war is won, losses maximal.[/quote]

no, it's more like
citadel trap (ME1) -> war instantly won, minimal losses
relays not closed -> war is won, medium losses
citadel direct attack in order to close the relays -> war instantly won, but high risk (let's say 30%) of maximal losses. Can be done immediatly.
[/quote]
This is nonsense.
What losses would that be, when fleets are protecting homeworlds?
Anyway, instant march from batarian space - Citadel easily taken, fleets cut off.
Scattering own forces and spreading them thin to ensure own losses - makes absolutely no sense.
[quote]
citadel indirect attack in order to close the relays -> war instantly won, mininal losses. 0% risk of losses. A few months to organize it required (cerberus/udina coup d'etat) though
[/quote]
No.
You are just ignoring ME3 events.
Reapers already suffered maximum losses possible, when they attacked everyone at once.
[quote]
so in the end they have to decide between a few months of medium losses and the risk of maximal losses
[/quote]
No. That was an example of forging of "evidence", or, to be precise - fitting solution for already set answer.
[quote]
I can't prove it of course, but neither you can't disprove it.
[/quote]
I already did that.

[quote]
[quote]Reapers are not invulnerable, that is entire reason why Citadel was not taken right before rachni wars by Sovereign alone.
Vigil's said that also.[/quote]

yes, that's what I've said.. Sovereing didn't want to be forced to a fight outside (or inside) the citadel.
that's why Sovereign need Saren to take control of citadel and it's arms.

without Saren infiltration, the citadel would have been sealed. .
around 0.40
[/quote]
You are missing the point again.
Sovereign was alone, and he could not take Citadel on it's own. That is the reason why he was scheming for thousands of years.
And if reapers could just fly into a galaxy in half a year, losing completely nothing - there is no reason for Sovereign to do anything.
He could just send signal for reapers and wait for them.
And if, in your headcanon, reapers already flew into a galaxy for thousands of years(bringing relay with them no less), - there is no reason for Sovereign to do anything either. Especially attack Citadel when reapers are arriving within 0.5-3 years.

[quote]
[quote]Does not matter for reapers. They took Citadel easily in ME3.[/quote]

yes it does because their are machine and efficiency matter, and again: we don't know if they took the citadel easily.
[/quote]
We do know that they took all planets easily, and crushed every fleet easily.
We do know, that they could took Citadel quickly and easily any time they wanted.
So stop pretending that reapers couldn't take Citadel with less fleet coverage of the same fleets they already easily beaten.
[quote]
[quote]Please.
Reapers beat every fleet easily. No fleets = no opposition.
This means that if Citadel was closed, they were just sitting around, and shooting at it.
This took few days at maximum, hence Citadel being taken was a surprise for Shepard.
[color=rgb(170, 170, 170)">And this, comrade, means - reapers took Citadel ]quickly[/color][color=rgb(170, 170, 170)"> ]and[/color][color=rgb(170, 170, 170)"> ]easily[/color].[/quote]

citadel closed + citadel defence system activated + fleet -> it is not like "beat a fleet in the space"
[/quote]
Lol.
What is that "citadel defence system" you just asspulled to "prove" your "point", btw?
No doubt, that magical asspull is stronger than entire turian fleet.
[quote]
fallacy. Wrong use of the analogy argument, we don't know how "easy" was taking the citadel with a direct attack.
we don't even know if it was a direct attack (see reaperized Tim ****ing around the presidium)
[/quote]
Oh yes, we know exactly that Citadel could be easily taken. Because homeworlds, which were much more protected by races fleets - were easily taken, and fleets defending them - were easily beaten.
And all that was done by only portion of full reaper fleet. So, direct attack of the Citadel by full reapers fleet - is actually far easier than attack of Palaven, Earth and Thessia.
[quote]
[quote]No.
Entire possibility of relays being locked - means minimum losses for reapers.
Relays not being locked - means maximum losses for reapers.
As for shock - easily taking council center - is a shock enough.[/quote]

see above. 3 months of medium losses or the risk of heavier losses?
[/quote]
I already debunked your forging of "evidence".
[quote]
[quote]And of course it is completely unrelated to a topic.
To fight war in space - you need infrastructure. And it is completely destroyed by the reapers.[/quote]

I don't see the point. You need infrastructure to keep fighting in the space for a long time, but the war is just began and there a lot of fleets around. Fleets that don't need infrastructure on the short term, because they were build before the war.

[/quote]
Of course you don't.
You have no idea what guerilla warfare is.
Reapers have no logistics, no supply lines. You can not hurt them this way.
And you can not hide from them without active mass relay network.

[/quote]
1. Are you just thick, or just diliberatly ignoring what everyone tells you?
Sovergien's attack on the Citadel was to:
(a)Bring in the Reapers instantly
(b)Cut off the head of the major galactic government
©Obliterate the core of the major fleet
(d)Shut down the relay network and isolate/segregate the galaxy, leaving them unable to unite
(e)Gain information on every race by stealing all the major information directly fom their former seat of power
(f)Revive the seemingly stasis-locked Catalyst
(g)Panic the galaxy so that they don't have any clue what they're fighting, putting them off-balance, keeping them from orginizing any effective counterattacks

Failing this, the Reapers:
(a) Spend three years moving through Dark Space (THIS IS CONFIRMED AS TRUE. NOT six months. THREE YEARS. Source: Mass Effect wiki)
(b)Constantly change tactics agains the united governments
©Fight through the full force of the galaxy
(d)Face the possibilaty of blindside attacks they normally wouldn't have to be concerned about, as they have no control over the relays
(e)Have to learn information on the enemy on the fly, verses knowing eveything in advance
(f)Have no backup from the Catalyst, still stasis-locked
(g)Slog through a galaxy that has an accurate idea of what they are, and are fighting them with coordinated resistance.

LOOK at this list of adavntages/disatvantages for taking the Citadel, -DON'T just glance over, REALLY LOOK- and THEN try your BS about Sovergien's attack being pointless.

2. Actually, it's confirmed that EVERY ship that uses Mass Effect Cores NEEDS to discharge. EDI says that all the conventional laws and rules of Mass Effect Cores are applicaple to Reapers. ESPECALLY to them, as they are it's inventors. so YES, the NEED to discharge like every other ship. And I doubt they care about radiation laws, as it's Dark Space - no one's out there anyway.

3. You REALLY are that THICK? It's CONFIRMED that it took the Reapers THREE YEARS to get from Dark Space to the galaxy. What you see at the end of ME2 is them ARRIVING. Not STARTING. ARRIVING.
God, CHECK YOUR LORE. No one can take you seriously like this. Especally when you insult the other person every other sentance.
Reapers being machines, they are obsesed with efficancy. The war they fought was ANYTHING but efficant, thanks to Shepard. The Citadel trap was a quick efficant way to take every cycle. I listed all the pros of it, and cons of it's loss above in point 1^.

4. WHY DO YOU THINK THEY TRIED TO RECRUT THE GETH? WHAT DO YOU THINK THE COLLECTORS AND HUSKS ARE FOR?
And they ALWAYS use husk armies in their place. They almost NEVER go to ground themselves. All they DO is hide behind proxy armies.

5. They didn't want them to unite into a single force. They attack and suppressed the vorcha and turian homeworlds instead of just blowing them up. The point of spreading out like that was because they figured out that Shepard was trying to unite the races into a single solidated force, which could give them many unessesary and unpredicted losses, so they tried to pin them down. This cycle was harder, because their governments retained high independancy. They formed the Council Government, but were all still sovergien nations, unlike the protheans, where there was just one head to chop off. This is much harder then that - there are many more heads to cut off, and they all have different styles of attack/defense.

6. It was either that, or have them all move through the relays and blindside them while they foucsed on a single race. They HAD to split attention on ALL the races, or else the others would regroup and hit their rear while they focused on one at a time. THAT would be maximum losses.
Study up on war, will you?

7. Again, either they attack them all, or go one at a time and be hit by all the others while distracted. No evidence was "forged." Just your accusation - again with no grounds:wizard:

8. No you didn't Blueprotoss 2.0. :wizard:You juts say you did, without ever doing so. POST A DIRECT RESPONCE.

9. ALONE?! DID YOU EVER PLAY ME1?!?!
He didn't attack till it had the GETH. If you were right, it would have attacked LONG AGO, and ALONE. IT DIDN'T.
It waited till it had an idea of how to bypass the Cidatel sealing up and locking it out.
ANd if it just ignored the Citadel trap, it would have been a waste, and the galaxy would still have a chance to mount an orginized defence, in comparison to wiping out all they're chances instantly by taking the Citadel.

AND AGAIN, IT'S CONFIRMED THAT IT TOOK THE REAPERS THREE YEARS TO GET HER CONVENTONALLY. CHECK THE MASS EFFECT WIKI FOR YOUR PROOF.
And LOOK at all the losses they took by NOT being able to use the trap. They LOST because they couldn't end the cycle before they used the Crucible. If they had taken the Citadel, they would have WON. Instead, they LOST to the Crucible because they DIDN'T use the trap.

10, You are simply thick.
Palaven lasted six months under FULL ASSAULT. The Reapers took DOZENS OF LOSSES there.
Heshtok, the Vorcha homeworld, was STILL UNCOUNQUERED by the end of the War.
Thessia was STILL FIGHTING.
Earth was STILL FIGHTING. They were still bringing down Destroyers. Even the batarians brought some Destroyers down as well.
They took ALOT MORE LOSSES THEN EXPECTED. I HARDLY call that "crushed easily" since there was still a MASSIVE FLEET six months later, that charged Earth.
And the Citadel fell after the Illusive Man went there personally, and summoned them from the Citadel.
GET YOUR BRAIN WORKING!. The Illusive Man sabotaged the Citadel, becoming Saren 2.0. The Reapers wouldn't have taken it otherwise. If they could have, they never would have waited till the Illusive Man went there himself six months into the war to do so.
You are REALLY becoming an embaressment. You NEVER analyze the lore, OR use any form of logical thinking. And Shepard took the Collector  Base down in what, six hours. That was FAST, but NOT EASY. STOP assuming that fast = easy, because that's RARELY the case.
You OVERESTIMATE the Reapers constantly, yet keep saying that nothing they do matters. Stop contridicting yourself and actually LOOK AT THE LORE.

11. The Citadel Defence System is the closing of the arms to "form a hard, impregnable shell."  Since it;s impregnable, I'd wager it IS stronger then the turian fleet.
HOW THE HELL DID YOU NOT COMPREHEND THAT ONE?! THIS ISN'T THAT HARD TO FIGURE OUT. You are either thick, or ignoring him on purpose because you can't accept your wrong.
The Reapers would NEVER risk attacking the core of their Relay system and the home of the Catalyst. They would NEVER attack unless they were sure of a plan to take it without damaging it. That's why Sovergien waited till it had the geth and Saren to attack. And why they waited till the Illusive Man was there to help them THIS time.
You asspull is an asspull on YOUR part:P

12. Again, Hard, impregnable shell. There was a REASON they waited for the Illusive Man to go to the Citadel before taking it. They couldn'd have taken it without damaging it otherwise - which they would NEVER RISK.

13. LOOK AT THE PROTHEANS. THEY did damn well for  a race that was cut off from the relays. The destroyed the Zha'till, they fought the Reapers for several centruies. They put up a damn good fight.

[silverexile17s]

Maxster_ wrote...

kal_reegar wrote...

ok, I surrender. All your answer are more or less flawed. For three reasons.

First, evidently you are genetically unable to understand the difference between "need", "necessity" "lack of alternatives" and "useful" "more efficient" "preferable" "advantageus".
You are missing the essential requirement to understand the reapers (and synthetics in general) so it's useless to argue about that.

Sure.
Especially when you are saying, that spreading your forces thin to attack everyone at once is preferable to a strike of full forces at one target at a time, with no ability for enemy to join or relocate forces.

Indeed, there is no point to discuss strategy with you.

Second, if you want to understand the reapers strategy, you need to stop assuming arbitrarily that "this was easy" "this was maximal losses" "this is important for the reapers" "this isn't important for the reapers" "a sealed citadel is easy to take than palaven" etc... The only evindece you have to support these statements is your fervid imagination. Nothing bad, but if it leads to nonsensical scenarios, well... you should try to imagine something different.

Sure.
Especially funny when you doing it yourself, while accusing me of doing so.
Not to mention, that you deliberately ignore codex entries and events in ME3, while pretending that there is no evidence of reapers strength and strategy.

And of course, "proving" your "point" with made up evidence, is far better. So what was that "Citadel defence system" asspull?

Third, as silverexile said, you need to study the lore. For example, the miracle at Palaven and how turians manage to destroy some reapers. SPOILER: not in battle.

Lol.
Turians, in comparison to Hackett's retarded twin, used standart military tactics of ME universe.
And that was battle, real space battle like it described even in ME1 codex about space combat(multiple entries). And reapers instantly covered that with, again, standart military tactics - they attacked planet directly.
That was a real space battle, not that garbage cutscenes in ME3.
And that battle was lost.

And for "miracle of Palaven" - it was only possible because reapers went full retard. In ME universe, ground forces without space superiority, is a dead meat, opened for precision orbital strikes. Without any chances of anything. Just target practice.

Yes, there is no ground solution for a space problem in MEU. It was known from the start(ME1).
You have no fleet - you are dead.

And of course, that "example" is completely unrelated to attack at the Citadel. There is no infantry in space. There is no trenches in space.
If you have no fleet - you can not defend the Citadel.

Not your fault, anyway. Genes and imagination are powerful forces.
But I suspect that many things don't make sense for you, not only the ME trilogy...

I like that one. Especially "genes" part.

1. This cycle was more decentrilized then the protheans were. If the Reapers focused on one exclusively, then all the others would move to mass through the STILL ACTIVE relay network, and blindside them. If the network was INACTIVE, THEN They could leasurly pick off the races one by one. Instead, to try and stop Shepard from uniting them into a coherant force, they HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO ATTACK AND SUPPRESS THEM ALL AT ONCE.
Again, no analyzing or comparisin of the Lore

2. YOU HAVE PRESENTED NO EVIDENCE THAT BACKS YOU UP. JUST ASSPULLS OF YOUR OWN INVENTION.
That modius operandi is YOURS, not his.
YOU are tho one ignroing Codex entries, like "Reaper Vunerbilaties" and "The Miracle at Palaven."
And again, the "Cidatel Defence System" was the closing of the arms into "A hard, impregnable shell. - Pretty much the best defense system a space station could ask for. The asspull wasn't his. It was YOURS, ad you FAILED to comprehend something that should be SO BASIC to ANYONE THAT even GLANCED as the Codex.
Again, lore comprehension FAIL

3. I remnd you the truans tactics did NOTHING. Hackett's WERE effective.
The only "retard" is YOU, in that you live in a fantisy world about the nature of war, where everything automatically is an easy choice, and there is no hard choice that can't be avoided. GROW UP.

And if the Reapers were interested in extermination, they could have just glased the krogan, vorcha, hanar, volus, quarian, and asari worlds from orbit. They want to HARVEST them - NOT obliterate them. ANYONE THAT STUDIED EVEN A FRAGMENT OF THE LORE would KNOW that the Reapers harvest every race, converting the race with the "highest genetic diversity" into a Sovergien-class Reaper, while all the others are made into Destroyers. They NEVER wipe out a race - they convert them all.
AGAIN, Lore comprehension FAIL

4. With how much you continue to miss in ME lore, it HAS to be genetic. NO ONE can ignore THAT much lore without it dawning on them that they're making an ass of themselves.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 31 janvier 2013 - 11:37 .

[silverexile17s]

Maxster_ wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Except reapers don't need crew, and don't have one.

Completely unrelated to the conversation at hand but...

Did Sovereign *really* let Saren, who by his own admission is nothing but a genetic mutation and an accident, install a chair in him? Does the Vanguard of the Reapers have no dignity?

What dignity you are talking about? Reapers are just mindless pawns of the Catalyst. Catalyst says - Sovereign complies.

Catalyst was ASLEAP while Sovergien was working. It was goung independant - that why it was so desprate to restore the Catalyst and bring the other Reapers in. If the Catalyst was awake, the Citadel would have activated like normal.

[silverexile17s]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

That depends on the state of Citadel's security.
Of which we know only that it is numerous, and there is a fleet guarding the Citadel.
Council chamber is not accessible to anyone, and with high probability guarded with security forces.
As for taking council aboard the Sovereign - this doesn't make any sense, ship like that would be immediately attacked by the fleet. It is not like some turian frigate.
And for indoctrinated followers - depends of the state of the C-Sec, he can't just take them all to a council chamber.
He couldn't take them even to presidium, which is also restricted area, and guarded by C-Sec.
And to break through Citadel fleet, Sovereign needed a large geth fleet.

Got Benezia the Matriarch -> have her invite another matriarch to discuss flowers and cool weird dreadnoughts i found -> gradually indoctrinate more important matriarchs -> invite Tevos for secret matriarchal consultations -> own Thessia

Got Saren the Turian -> invite an important turian for secret week-long spectre stuff -> get more important turians, crawling up the Hierarchy -> eventually get the Primarch -> invite Turian Councilor -> own Palaven

Got Saren the Spectre-> invite a spectre/important C-sec person/STG for a secret mission -> get more important people -> own Citadel

Got Sovereign -> invite important scientists to study teh cool ancient ship in secret -> have them invite important people to see what they found -> if anyone is skeptical just have him/her come over for a week or two to see for themselves how cool and harmless it all is.

At this point, Sovereign is basically the Council flagship and can fly around the Citadel unmolested like Destiny Ascension.

Indoctrination does not work that way.
That way you'll only get mindless zombies, incapable of sustaining themselves.

Sure it does. See Saren, Benezia and their Asari commandoes. Just stay near Sovereign for a week or two for any reason and voila. Go with victims on a "secret mission". Pleasure cruise. Family reunion. Jump into a remote location and fake an engine malfunction. Options are limitless.

That would draw attantion to themselves, and the dreadnought, which the Council will quarantine, which the geth will see as a blastphmy and attack to rescue it, and everything will spiral out of conrtol.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

It started out as a Quasar machine.

[silverexile17s]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Capture and hold matriarch for several weeks - no one will ever notice.

Invite, not capture. Stop misreading what I wrote. Have here be there out of her free will. Benezia is a powerful Matriarch, she can come up with plausible reasons.

Maxster_ wrote...

Sure, warlike and cautious turians will never suspect anything - especially mindless zombies incapable of even feeding themselves.

Mindless like Saren and Benezia. Are you even reading the same page?

Maxster_ wrote...
Especially funny when no sane person, especially turian, would even trust a spectre. A member of organisation, which, as you know, above the law, and only answers to the council.

...

We played different games.

You need months, YEARS even for that to work. The timetable was shrinking. Saren felt that if he didn't prove worth quickly, the Reapers would not spare anyone. He was pressed for time. And again, inviting THAT many high-ranking people will draw attantion to them, which they don't want while coordinating the geth.

The only reason Saren and Benezia were like that was because the process was drawn out over years. The months or so timetable you keep talking about would not have worked, as they would be husk-like before they could ever be usefull.

LOOK at C-Sec's Chief Palin, and his reaction to Spectres. NO ONE trusts them. In fact, most seem to LOTHE them for always being above the law. You played the same game, but took a different look at it.

Even Maxster_, who usually can't tell ME lore from a hole in the ground, seems to understand indoctrination better than this.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 11 mars 2013 - 04:15 .

[Indy_S]

What on Earth is going on in this thread? This is a long way from the topic at hand.

I agree with Maxster, I find the ideas behind the Crucible to be a mess of inconsistencies and poorly established lore. I agree with Silver, the ideas are plausible and don't directly contradict the universe. This tractor is aggravating and could have been handled a lot better.

And Silver, I have to ask, do you believe this quote is supported by the games?

silverexile17s wrote...
Catalyst was ASLEAP while Sovergien was working. It was goung independant - that why it was so desprate to restore the Catalyst and bring the other Reapers in. If the Catalyst was awake, the Citadel would have activated like normal.

[silverexile17s]

Indy_S wrote...

What on Earth is going on in this thread? This is a long way from the topic at hand.

I agree with Maxster, I find the ideas behind the Crucible to be a mess of inconsistencies and poorly established lore. I agree with Silver, the ideas are plausible and don't directly contradict the universe. This tractor is aggravating and could have been handled a lot better.

And Silver, I have to ask, do you believe this quote is supported by the games?

silverexile17s wrote...
Catalyst was ASLEAP while Sovergien was working. It was goung independant - that why it was so desprate to restore the Catalyst and bring the other Reapers in. If the Catalyst was awake, the Citadel would have activated like normal.

It's supported by Sovergien's actions. And the fact that the keepers respod to the signals from the Citadel, but don't respond this time. Convineint, if the Catalyst was in stasis.
The prothean's sabotage being to spicifically put it into stasis would explain why it's inactive.
Like you said, nothing that makes it impossible. It a suspension of disbelief, sure, but hey, weren't the Reapers - race of living ships that harvest every 50,000 years - a suspension of disbelief as well. Just like the Lazarus Project, the Thorian, Javik living through stasis, the Collector's origins, and the way Reapers are built.

Granted, that was executed better.

I just hate when arrogant people like Maxster_ go crying for blood by making it more then it already is, and acting like it has no redeeming qualities. He says that it void's the lore, even though it never does.
So it's not at ME1's par. That doesn't make it a horrible game - especally not at the level that Maxster_ raves about.
Especally when (as showen above) he rarely reviews or analyzes the lore in his arguments. And NEVER acknowlodges when he is diffinitively wrong.

And I do agree that while the Crucible doesn't void any of the lore, it's still poorly executed compared to the Reapers and the Thorian. There were/are good, even great ideas here, but they aren't used at the full potental.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 01 février 2013 - 03:16 .

[Indy_S]

The difference seems to come from whether or not those things are conceits of the setting or contrivances imposed upon it. I'd argue that the Thorian, Javik and the Collectors are the former while Lazarus, the Reapers' construction (but not the Reapers themselves) and the Crucible are the latter. As to the Catalyst's stasis, it never comes up in game so your assumption cannot be used as evidence.

[silverexile17s]

Indy_S wrote...

The difference seems to come from whether or not those things are conceits of the setting or contrivances imposed upon it. I'd argue that the Thorian, Javik and the Collectors are the former while Lazarus, the Reapers' construction (but not the Reapers themselves) and the Crucible are the latter. As to the Catalyst's stasis, it never comes up in game so your assumption cannot be used as evidence.

It's still a possible option. It either being a side-effect or direct result of the prothean sabotage is the most logical assumption that can be made, and, at this point in time, the one of the ONLY things that explains why the Catalyst never interviened in the Battle of the Citadel. The ONLY OTHER option is that he is isolated, and runs on a seperate system from the Rest of the Citadel (possible evidence: The Citadel is refered to by the Catalyst as "his home" in the EC. This was CHANGED from what he said in the original cut of ME3, where he said it was "part of him." Was this done to indicate that he was isolated from the rest of the systems?)
Both of these are plausable.
What I hate about the Catalyst is that, while there is nothing about it that breaks any lore, there is ALSO no lore that ties it down. It feels like something that's just floating in the story, with nothing diffinitively explaining these things. Explaining the exact position within the lore the Catalyst fit into would have aliveated many compliants.

[Indy_S]

I doubt that alone would alleviate so many complaints. That would be a band-aid to a person undergoing heart surgery. And as possible as it is, you still can't use it as evidence.

[KiwiQuiche]

I don't think we'll ever find out. But it's probably covered with as much bullsh!t as the "each cycle added more to the Crucible, improved it."

Anyway, how the fcuk can you improve something when you have no idea what it does? It would be like finding the first car- one bunch of people believe it's supposed to be a portable house. Another group believe it's supposed to be a holding cage for transporting criminals. Yet another think it's to make moonshine and the fact it moves mean you can escape from law enforcement. Yet we are supposed to believe every cycle somehow improved the Crucible without even know how it works or what it does. Yeah right. :|

Modifié par KiwiQuiche, 01 février 2013 - 07:14 .

[Indy_S]

That's why I came up with the Tractor Theory. It addresses all the issues I have with the Crucible and allows for misunderstandings between cycles. From page 2:

The original creators designed a rather sleek tractor. They even had a few working models but only the blueprints survived. The next cycle thought 'Why can't it fly?' and so they adapted it to fly. The next cycle misunderstood the scale and made it a few hundred times larger. The next cycle looked at something this large and asked 'Why isn't it in space?' and so it was changed. The next race believed that the now-massive spaceship would be a great place to keep a rather large battery. The next race thought that it would be incredibly useful if this ship was attached to the Citadel to provide additional power in case the Citadel's misunderstood power supply failed. And so on until the Protheans decided that putting a bubble on the front 'only makes sense'.

And then it reaches us as the ultimate doomsday weapon we were hoping for.

[nos_astra]

silverexile17s wrote...
1. This cycle was more decentrilized then the protheans were. If the Reapers focused on one exclusively, then all the others would move to mass through the STILL ACTIVE relay network, and blindside them. If the network was INACTIVE, THEN They could leasurly pick off the races one by one. Instead, to try and stop Shepard from uniting them into a coherant force, they HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO ATTACK AND SUPPRESS THEM ALL AT ONCE.

They had a choice.

Cerberus managed to attack the Citadel (didn't succeed but they got pretty far). 

The Reapers are known to indoctrinate people, remember? They could have infiltrated the Citadel from the beginning ... even before launching their attack. Remember back ME1 when Sovereign attempted to gain control of the Citadel and the relays with one Spectre and an army of geth and Shepard saved the day thanks to a very convenient plot device?

And no in-game reason is given as to why the Catalyst can't control its own place while being able to remote control the Reapers (that's like EDI trapping herself on the Normandy and the evabot to interact with her immediate environment).

The Reapers could have done this much smarter and focussed on getting the Citadel, switch off the relays and proceed as planned. They didn't because the writers needed the galaxy accessible for Shepard to go shoot things and be speshul and important.

2. YOU HAVE PRESENTED NO EVIDENCE THAT BACKS YOU UP. JUST ASSPULLS OF YOUR OWN INVENTION.
That modius operandi is YOURS, not his.
YOU are tho one ignroing Codex entries, like "Reaper Vunerbilaties" and "The Miracle at Palaven."
And again, the "Cidatel Defence System" was the closing of the arms into "A hard, impregnable shell. - Pretty much the best defense system a space station could ask for. The asspull wasn't his. It was YOURS, ad you FAILED to comprehend something that should be SO BASIC to ANYONE THAT even GLANCED as the Codex.

Well, there are some people who were highly amused that the presidium ring seemed like a huge hole at the bottom, even when closed. Well, the Crucible connects just fine with a closed Citadel. Let's handwave this and say it's really closed and impenetrable. 

It doesn't stop me from wondering how Sovereign managed to attack the Citadel and even gain control for a moment but the whole Reaper fleet couldn't because IMPOSSIBLE.

3. I remnd you the truans tactics did NOTHING. Hackett's WERE effective.
The only "retard" is YOU, in that you live in a fantisy world about the nature of war, where everything automatically is an easy choice, and there is no hard choice that can't be avoided. GROW UP.

I'll snip the rest of your rant. Let me inform you that
a) Hackett is a moron. That's a simple fact. The one point in favor of refuse is actually that Hackett and his descendants are removed from the gene pool,
and you're taking ME way too serious. It's not nearly as complex and sophisticated as people claim it to be. Even the hard choices are simplified solutions of very complex issues that get solved by ... [looks around] oh, hey you, badass, you seem able. Tell us if we should let the krogans breed like bunnies again or have them die out. ... [thinker pose] Hm, my friends Wrex and Eve are cool. They will change the nature and attitude of their entire species with the power of their combined awesomeness. Let's hope they don't die soon or we'll be all screwed ... well, more screwed. CURE THE GENOPHAGE! ... Ooooh, Mr. Shepard. You really know how to make a ... haaaard ... choice. 

Hm, smart.

The point is: ME is horribly written and a whole lot of contrived nonsense ensures that your player avatar can defeat the Reapers by essentially going on ground missions while the rest of the galaxy is building the crappy plot device of doom off-sreen.

Modifié par klarabella, 01 février 2013 - 08:09 .

[silverexile17s]

klarabella wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
1. This cycle was more decentrilized then the protheans were. If the Reapers focused on one exclusively, then all the others would move to mass through the STILL ACTIVE relay network, and blindside them. If the network was INACTIVE, THEN They could leasurly pick off the races one by one. Instead, to try and stop Shepard from uniting them into a coherant force, they HAD NO CHOICE BUT TO ATTACK AND SUPPRESS THEM ALL AT ONCE.

They had a choice.

Cerberus managed to attack the Citadel (didn't succeed but they got pretty far). 

The Reapers are known to indoctrinate people, remember? They could have infiltrated the Citadel from the beginning ... even before launching their attack. Remember back ME1 when Sovereign attempted to gain control of the Citadel and the relays with one Spectre and an army of geth and Shepard saved the day thanks to a very convenient plot device?

And no in-game reason is given as to why the Catalyst can't control its own place while being able to remote control the Reapers (that's like EDI trapping herself on the Normandy and the evabot to interact with her immediate environment).

The Reapers could have done this much smarter and focussed on getting the Citadel, switch off the relays and proceed as planned. They didn't because the writers needed the galaxy accessible for Shepard to go shoot things and be speshul and important.

2. YOU HAVE PRESENTED NO EVIDENCE THAT BACKS YOU UP. JUST ASSPULLS OF YOUR OWN INVENTION.
That modius operandi is YOURS, not his.
YOU are tho one ignroing Codex entries, like "Reaper Vunerbilaties" and "The Miracle at Palaven."
And again, the "Cidatel Defence System" was the closing of the arms into "A hard, impregnable shell. - Pretty much the best defense system a space station could ask for. The asspull wasn't his. It was YOURS, ad you FAILED to comprehend something that should be SO BASIC to ANYONE THAT even GLANCED as the Codex.

Well, there are some people who were highly amused that the presidium ring seemed like a huge hole at the bottom, even when closed. Well, the Crucible connects just fine with a closed Citadel. Let's handwave this and say it's really closed and impenetrable. 

It doesn't stop me from wondering how Sovereign managed to attack the Citadel and even gain control for a moment but the whole Reaper fleet couldn't because IMPOSSIBLE.

3. I remnd you the truans tactics did NOTHING. Hackett's WERE effective.
The only "retard" is YOU, in that you live in a fantisy world about the nature of war, where everything automatically is an easy choice, and there is no hard choice that can't be avoided. GROW UP.

I'll snip the rest of your rant. Let me inform you that
a) Hackett is a moron. That's a simple fact. The one point in favor of refuse is actually that Hackett and his descendants are removed from the gene pool,
and you're taking ME way too serious. It's not nearly as complex and sophisticated as people claim it to be. Even the hard choices are simplified solutions of very complex issues that get solved by ... [looks around] oh, hey you, badass, you seem able. Tell us if we should let the krogans breed like bunnies again or have them die out. ... [thinker pose] Hm, my friends Wrex and Eve are cool. They will change the nature and attitude of their entire species with the power of their combined awesomeness. Let's hope they don't die soon or we'll be all screwed ... well, more screwed. CURE THE GENOPHAGE! ... Ooooh, Mr. Shepard. You really know how to make a ... haaaard ... choice. 

Hm, smart.

The point is: ME is horribly written and a whole lot of contrived nonsense ensures that your player avatar can defeat the Reapers by essentially going on ground missions while the rest of the galaxy is building the crappy plot device of doom off-sreen.

1. Cerberus only got that far because they had several plants (spies) in C-Sec AND the support of a Citadel Councilor. It was likely the result of months-long planning. And the attack made everyone on the station extra-cautious. They were likely looking out for anyone that was indoctrinated after that. (Ann Bryson says that you can identify indoctrinated through psych evals and so-forth)
Cerberus' attack likely ruined any similar plan the Reapers were prepping. (irony)
The Reapers ONLY ever take the Citadel after the Illusive Man goes there himself. Otherwise, the Council forces could have activated the station's defense mode, and sealed the station. On top of being impregnable, the Reapers wouldn't DARE attack the Citadel itself to try and breach the shell. They'd never attack the core of the Relay network/ their ticket back to Dark Space after all's done/ The home of the Catalyst.
So in truth, they COULDN'T attack and take the Citadel until after the Illusive Man went and became Saren 2.0 by sabotageing the Station and making sure the Reapers could get inside without the arms locking them out.

And you remember that EDI  was like that? When she was shackled back in ME2? Only perifiral control was avalible to her. The same could be true of the Catalyst, should the theroy about being put into stasis by the prothean sabotage be disproved sometime in the future.

2. Sovergien was INSIDE the shell. That's the thing about shells: they don't protect if the enemy gets inside. Sovergien would have only been in trouble had it stayed locked OUTSIDE the Citadel's arms.
Sovergien had Saren at the controls, and a geth army to back him up, to keep the arms open, until Sovergien was in range, then sealed Sovergien inside the station, so that it could gain control without anyone being able to attack it.
The rest of the Reapers, by contrast, have no such army that can board the station in sigifigant numbers before the arms were sealed. Any indoctrinated they had were likely uprooted by Cerberus' own failed attempt.
Only when the Illusive Man goes there, knowing exactally where and when to go, do the Reapers take the station without the fear of being locked out and damaging it.

3. Hackett had to manage an entire war front.
In fact, I'd like to know exactally WHAT spicific battle plan it is that everyone is ganging up on him with.

And THAT genophage choice is altered by choices made through the other games. Say you have Wreav in place of Wrex. Do you want to cure it THEN?
I'm surprised you picked that. That's considered the BEST part of the game by many, saying that it's on par with the other fan-faovrate moments like Noveria.
And Wrex has UNITED THE KROGAN IN PEACE (or close enough to it)FOR THREE YEARS. THAT'S an acomplishment. And Eve will insure that the future generations respect Wrex's word, which has the the backing of being "the Krogan that cured the Genophage."
so NO, that choice would NOT screw anyone over. As seen in the ending slides. It's worse if Wreav is leader. It changes depending on previous choices. It's a cumamation of ALL the choices you made regarding that, and if you stuck to a spicific path all the way, then it's easy. But ONLY if you stay on a spicific path.

And again, that "crappy plot device" was DREW'S idea - it was part of his Dark Energy plot, and has been around since the conception of the game's plot in ME1, and likely finilized as a plot point in ME2. It wasn't created just in this game - it was part of the plot long before development on ME3.
It's not horribly written. It's badly executed. There's a difference.
You can take something that suspends disbelief, like living ships that kill everyone every 50,000 years, and execute it so well, that it's seamless. It becomes a cool and interesting element if done well.
The writing wasn't the fault. The execution was.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 11 mars 2013 - 04:17 .

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silverexile17s wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Except reapers don't need crew, and don't have one.

Completely unrelated to the conversation at hand but...

Did Sovereign *really* let Saren, who by his own admission is nothing but a genetic mutation and an accident, install a chair in him? Does the Vanguard of the Reapers have no dignity?

What dignity you are talking about? Reapers are just mindless pawns of the Catalyst. Catalyst says - Sovereign complies.

Catalyst was ASLEAP while Sovergien was working. It was goung independant - that why it was so desprate to restore the Catalyst and bring the other Reapers in. If the Catalyst was awake, the Citadel would have activated like normal.

Lol - come on man, there is absolutely NOTHING that says the Catalyst was asleep. Why would it need to ever be asleep? It is supposedly the most advanced AI ever created (and it constantly monitors the state of the Galaxy, by the way), not a desktop that has been left on too long.

The Catalyst was not asleep. Its very existance breaks the ME1 story.

Back on topic:

Previous cycles created this device that needed a Catalyst.

The Catalyst was an AI they knew nothing about, had no idea of its existence (confirmed by the Catalyst in his dialogue when he says Shep is the first to make it that far).

How could they create a device requireing a catalyst, but have that catalyst be something they have no idea even existis? It is stupid and beyond bad writing.

And I have heard some people say that they have headcannoned the Leviathans came up with the Cruicible. Well when Shep asks who created it, the Catalyst says that 'you would not know them'. Shep knows of the Leviathans, and the Cataylst KNOWS Shep knows of the Leviathans. So we have to assume that either a) it wasn't the Leviathans or it was the Leviathans and the Catalyst lied. If it lied about this, how could we trust the three crappy choices he presents us with at the end?

The ending is a mess.