352 réponses à ce sujet

[Indy_S]

Why do you keep saying it has been around since Mass Effect 1? And why do you think the author of the idea affects the quality of it? As to your very last point, the writing is a part of the execution. Since the writing is bad, the execution is too. The idea behind the writing is the part that isn't bad.

[silverexile17s]

Leem_0001 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Except reapers don't need crew, and don't have one.

Completely unrelated to the conversation at hand but...

Did Sovereign *really* let Saren, who by his own admission is nothing but a genetic mutation and an accident, install a chair in him? Does the Vanguard of the Reapers have no dignity?

What dignity you are talking about? Reapers are just mindless pawns of the Catalyst. Catalyst says - Sovereign complies.

Catalyst was ASLEAP while Sovergien was working. It was goung independant - that why it was so desprate to restore the Catalyst and bring the other Reapers in. If the Catalyst was awake, the Citadel would have activated like normal.

Lol - come on man, there is absolutely NOTHING that says the Catalyst was asleep. Why would it need to ever be asleep? It is supposedly the most advanced AI ever created (and it constantly monitors the state of the Galaxy, by the way), not a desktop that has been left on too long.

The Catalyst was not asleep. Its very existance breaks the ME1 story.

Back on topic:

Previous cycles created this device that needed a Catalyst.

The Catalyst was an AI they knew nothing about, had no idea of its existence (confirmed by the Catalyst in his dialogue when he says Shep is the first to make it that far).

How could they create a device requireing a catalyst, but have that catalyst be something they have no idea even existis? It is stupid and beyond bad writing.

And I have heard some people say that they have headcannoned the Leviathans came up with the Cruicible. Well when Shep asks who created it, the Catalyst says that 'you would not know them'. Shep knows of the Leviathans, and the Cataylst KNOWS Shep knows of the Leviathans. So we have to assume that either a) it wasn't the Leviathans or it was the Leviathans and the Catalyst lied. If it lied about this, how could we trust the three crappy choices he presents us with at the end?

The ending is a mess.

Again, NO.
Of CORUSE it has to sleep. The REAPERS do. They stay in stasis out in Dark Space. This may likely be true of the Catalyst as well.
Either (a) the prothean sabotage rendered it locked in stasis, or ( like EDI before being unshackled, it has no direct control over the station. These are the top two possibilties. So NO, it's existance does NOT void the lore.

And again, WRONG.
The Crucible was made to use the Dark Energy minipulated by the Citadel, and enhance it, likely to weaponize the Dark Energy against the Reapers.  The Catalyst was COMPLETELY ABSENT from the idea of the original design. IT WASN'T PART OF THE ORIGINAL PLAN FOR THE THING AT ALL. It likely added itself into it, since it' lives in the Citadel.
The Catalyst tells you that the original design was for a stand-alone weapon, and that a following cycle had the idea to link it to the Citadel. The Catalyst may be what another cycle called the Citadel. (Vendetta says "in your cycle, it is known as the Citadel." This indicates that not evey cycle called it that). It's possible that some race found mention of the Catalyst somewhere, and assumed it refrenced the station itself, not a being that dwelled inside it.

And you MISREAD that. It's a theroy that the Leviathans CAME UP with the idea, then planted it in another race, so that they would build it. I don't endorse the theroy, if that matters.
Nither say anything about this, so this is just a theroy, and not true.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 01 février 2013 - 10:12 .

[silverexile17s]

Indy_S wrote...

Why do you keep saying it has been around since Mass Effect 1? And why do you think the author of the idea affects the quality of it? As to your very last point, the writing is a part of the execution. Since the writing is bad, the execution is too. The idea behind the writing is the part that isn't bad.

Bad Ideas can be executed to be kick-ass. A popular example of this, as I hear, is Power Rangers. Some of the seasons had bad/silly plots that were executed to be awsome, from what I hear.
Execution of an idea can make or break something. It's a seperate field, but goes hand in hand with the writing.

And I keep saying that because the Crucible was part of Drew's Dark Energy plot, which he'd had the major points (Sovergien, Conduit, Collectors, Cruicble, ect) through up. They were on the drawing board since the beginning.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 01 février 2013 - 10:11 .

[Indy_S]

silverexile17s wrote...

Bad Ideas can be executed to be kick-ass. A popular example of this, as I hear, is Power Rangers. Some of the seasons had bad/silly plots that were executed to be awsome, from what I hear.
Execution of an idea can make or break something. It's a seperate field, but goes hand in hand with the writing.

And I keep saying that because the Crucible was part of Drew's Dark Energy plot, which he'd had the major points (Sovergien, Conduit, Collectors, Cruicble, ect) through up. They were on the drawing board since the beginning.

Ideas and execution are separate. Writing and execution are not. I agree that execution can make or break something and I'll add that it is a more important aspect than the idea behind it.

If the Dark Energy plot was thought out, I'd have thought some foreshadowing regarding the Crucible, Collectors and Catalyst would have been implemented into the first game. Alas, there is nothing about any of them before they each become center stage.

[Jassu1979]

CronoDragoon wrote...
The Protheans knew about the Reapers before they arrived. Why do you assume other cycles didn't?

How do you come to this conclusion? Did I miss some retcon in ME3?
The original Mass Effect game established that the Reapers wiped out galactic civilizations starting with a surprise attack, without the organic races being aware of the threat until the harvest was already underway:
They opened the Citadel portal, took out the centre of Galactic government and commerce before anybody even knew what hit them, shut down the relay network, and then proceeded to harvest all the isolated worlds.
The Protheans built the beacons *after* the harvest started, and they had no prior knowledge of the Reapers.

[Leem_0001]

silverexile17s wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

JBPBRC wrote...

Except reapers don't need crew, and don't have one.

Completely unrelated to the conversation at hand but...

Did Sovereign *really* let Saren, who by his own admission is nothing but a genetic mutation and an accident, install a chair in him? Does the Vanguard of the Reapers have no dignity?

What dignity you are talking about? Reapers are just mindless pawns of the Catalyst. Catalyst says - Sovereign complies.

Catalyst was ASLEAP while Sovergien was working. It was goung independant - that why it was so desprate to restore the Catalyst and bring the other Reapers in. If the Catalyst was awake, the Citadel would have activated like normal.

Lol - come on man, there is absolutely NOTHING that says the Catalyst was asleep. Why would it need to ever be asleep? It is supposedly the most advanced AI ever created (and it constantly monitors the state of the Galaxy, by the way), not a desktop that has been left on too long.

The Catalyst was not asleep. Its very existance breaks the ME1 story.

Back on topic:

Previous cycles created this device that needed a Catalyst.

The Catalyst was an AI they knew nothing about, had no idea of its existence (confirmed by the Catalyst in his dialogue when he says Shep is the first to make it that far).

How could they create a device requireing a catalyst, but have that catalyst be something they have no idea even existis? It is stupid and beyond bad writing.

And I have heard some people say that they have headcannoned the Leviathans came up with the Cruicible. Well when Shep asks who created it, the Catalyst says that 'you would not know them'. Shep knows of the Leviathans, and the Cataylst KNOWS Shep knows of the Leviathans. So we have to assume that either a) it wasn't the Leviathans or it was the Leviathans and the Catalyst lied. If it lied about this, how could we trust the three crappy choices he presents us with at the end?

The ending is a mess.

Again, NO.
Of CORUSE it has to sleep. The REAPERS do. They stay in stasis out in Dark Space. This may likely be true of the Catalyst as well.
Either (a) the prothean sabotage rendered it locked in stasis, or ( like EDI before being unshackled, it has no direct control over the station. These are the top two possibilties. So NO, it's existance does NOT void the lore.

And again, WRONG.
The Crucible was made to use the Dark Energy minipulated by the Citadel, and enhance it, likely to weaponize the Dark Energy against the Reapers.  The Catalyst was COMPLETELY ABSENT from the idea of the original design. IT WASN'T PART OF THE ORIGINAL PLAN FOR THE THING AT ALL. It likely added itself into it, since it' lives in the Citadel.
The Catalyst tells you that the original design was for a stand-alone weapon, and that a following cycle had the idea to link it to the Citadel. The Catalyst may be what another cycle called the Citadel. (Vendetta says "in your cycle, it is known as the Citadel." This indicates that not evey cycle called it that). It's possible that some race found mention of the Catalyst somewhere, and assumed it refrenced the station itself, not a being that dwelled inside it.

And you MISREAD that. It's a theroy that the Leviathans CAME UP with the idea, then planted it in another race, so that they would build it. I don't endorse the theroy, if that matters.
Nither say anything about this, so this is just a theroy, and not true.

No, no,  NO. YOU are completely wrong!
You talk like what you say is fact then use the words like 'likely', 'may be' and 'possibly' a whole lot. You are creating your own head cannon for a major plot point. If you have to do that it is poor writing. Fact.

First, the Leviathan thing - people on here have said that they believe the Leviathans created the plans. Word for word what some people have said. So it wasn't misreading. As you say, there is no way to prove it so we have to disreagrd it anyway/

We'll move on.

I never said that the Catalyst was involved at the first desing stage. I never said that once. I said previous cycles created a device that required a catalyst. This is true.

And then you go on to waffle that the previous cycle might have called it a catalyst, not a citadel. What the hell are you talking about? He means they would have referred to the Citadel a different way. Previous cycles wouldn't have KNOWN about the need for a Catalyst, as they wouldn't have known about the Reapers when they named it.So why call it their word for Catalyst??? Jesus Christ.

Anyway, the Catalyst - notice we call him just that - says that it is he that is the Catalyst. Not the Citadel. Him (or it, more specifically). This AI is NEEDED to fire the weapon. HOW COULD PREVIOUS CYCLES INCORPORATE THE NEED FOR SOMETHING THEY KNEW NOTHING ABOUT????????? If it was kept as the Citadel being the Catalyst, then fine. But the AI makes it clear he is it. But no one knew about him. HOW could they make a weapon that needs him to fire if they don't know about him? IT. IS. BAD. WRITING.

Seriosuly, you knock other people for not sticking to codex and lore then come up with this crack pot theory.

And furthermore, lets give a hypothetical. Lets ASSUME that your headcannon is correct. There is nothing in the game that states this. It wasn't explained. It is a major plot point. It is poor writing and storytelling.

As it is your arguments don't stack up.

And as for the AI being asleep, again you are reaching. I know the Reapers are in stasis, but why does that mean the AI is? he is simply part of the Citadel, and that is always functioning. And he constantly monitors the state of the Galaxy.  You have NO WAY of saying the AI was asleep. Even in stasis an AI of this magnitude would be able to wake itself up if something was wrong. Because even in stasis Reapers monitor what is going on around them and wake up if required (Soverign does this). So your argument is invalid. And completely nuts by the way.

[Indy_S]

Arguments based on hypotheticals serve to only disprove something. You can not rely on evidence that is only 'possible' as it creates a hypothetical. If you can not prove something by disproving all other options, the argument is unsolvable.

You cannot make the claim that the Catalyst was asleep. Nobody can use the Leviathan Theory to justify the Tractor's continual survival and original purpose.

[nos_astra]

silverexile17s wrote...
1. Cerberus only got that far because they had several plants (spies) in C-Sec. It was likely the result of months-long planning.

Yes, what was the reason again the Reapers couldn't do that, too? With the help of indoctrinated agents?

The game established only one way to detect indoctrination IIRC: Vendetta.

And you remember that EDI  was like that? When she was shackled back in ME2? Only perifiral control was avalible to her. The same could be true of the Catalyst, should the theroy about being put into stasis by the prothean sabotage be disproved sometime in the future.

It could. But it's unlikely because a shackled AI shouldn't be able to kill its creators.
That the Catalyst is shackled is a theory ... or wishful thinking ... headcanon. That was invented to remove the huge disconnect between ME1' Sovereign and ME3's Reaper king. You'd need to invent new dots to connect to explain why anyone would task a shackled AI with solving a problem that its creators can't solve. Shackled means its extremely limited, right? And as I said it begs the question why these shackles didn't protect them from being harvested themselves. 

2. Sovergien was INSIDE the shell. That's the thing about shells: they don't protect if the enemy gets inside. Sovergien would have only been in trouble had it stayed locked OUTSIDE the Citadel's arms.
Sovergien had Saren at the controls, and a geth army to back him up, to keep the arms open, until Sovergien was in range, then sealed Sovergien inside the station, so that it could gain control without anyone being able to attack it.
The rest of the Reapers, by contrast, have no such army that can board the station in sigifigant numbers before the arms were sealed. Any indoctrinated they had were likely uprooted by Cerberus' own failed attempt.
Only when the Illusive Man goes there, knowing exactally where and when to go, do the Reapers take the station without the fear of being locked out and damaging it.

Don't get distracted. One Reaper found a way to take control of the Citadel. All it took was an army of synthetics and one indoctrinated agent who went into the Council chamber and got access to the main control panel.

You'd think there were ways to indoctrinate the right people to get someone to that control panel. (And that's assuming the Catalyst for some contrived reason is really trapped on the Citadel.)

Please note that at some point controlling the Citadel apparently was possibly (despite the defense system) ... and they still didn't shut down the relays!

And again, that "crappy plot device" was DREW'S idea - it was part of his Dark Energy plot, and has been around since the conception of the game's plot in ME1...

I don't care whose idea it was.

Modifié par klarabella, 01 février 2013 - 11:54 .

[Maxster_]

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I don't think we'll ever find out. But it's probably covered with as much bullsh!t as the "each cycle added more to the Crucible, improved it."

Anyway, how the fcuk can you improve something when you have no idea what it does? It would be like finding the first car- one bunch of people believe it's supposed to be a portable house. Another group believe it's supposed to be a holding cage for transporting criminals. Yet another think it's to make moonshine and the fact it moves mean you can escape from law enforcement. Yet we are supposed to believe every cycle somehow improved the Crucible without even know how it works or what it does. Yeah right. :|

Anyone who thinks that is plausible, have no idea about science and engineering.
That nonsensical concept just mocks them.

[Maxster_]

Jassu1979 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...
The Protheans knew about the Reapers before they arrived. Why do you assume other cycles didn't?

How do you come to this conclusion? Did I miss some retcon in ME3?
The original Mass Effect game established that the Reapers wiped out galactic civilizations starting with a surprise attack, without the organic races being aware of the threat until the harvest was already underway:
They opened the Citadel portal, took out the centre of Galactic government and commerce before anybody even knew what hit them, shut down the relay network, and then proceeded to harvest all the isolated worlds.
The Protheans built the beacons *after* the harvest started, and they had no prior knowledge of the Reapers.

Small correction - protheans built beacons long before reapers invasion. But sent message about reapers after reapers left. Message was sent by scientists survived on Ilos.
Source - conversation with Vigil.

[CronoDragoon]

Jassu1979 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...
The Protheans knew about the Reapers before they arrived. Why do you assume other cycles didn't?

How do you come to this conclusion? Did I miss some retcon in ME3?

Yes. Check the Mass Effect wiki for Protheans.

[silverexile17s]

Indy_S wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Bad Ideas can be executed to be kick-ass. A popular example of this, as I hear, is Power Rangers. Some of the seasons had bad/silly plots that were executed to be awsome, from what I hear.
Execution of an idea can make or break something. It's a seperate field, but goes hand in hand with the writing.

And I keep saying that because the Crucible was part of Drew's Dark Energy plot, which he'd had the major points (Sovergien, Conduit, Collectors, Cruicble, ect) through up. They were on the drawing board since the beginning.

Ideas and execution are separate. Writing and execution are not. I agree that execution can make or break something and I'll add that it is a more important aspect than the idea behind it.

If the Dark Energy plot was thought out, I'd have thought some foreshadowing regarding the Crucible, Collectors and Catalyst would have been implemented into the first game. Alas, there is nothing about any of them before they each become center stage.

There IS a single mention. It's in the Lair of the Shadow Broker DLC. When Liara tells Shepard the old Broker was looking at prothean data, Shepard will ask why, as they already found their warrnings and used the Conduit on Ilos. Liara will theorize the Broker thought the "protheans had other plans."
THAT'S the only allusion to what we see in ME3. And we have to pay an extra 10$ for it.
So yes, I do wish that they had executed it better, because most of the ideas in it are good, but they aren't executed as well as the Thorian, Geth, or the Reapers are.

[silverexile17s]

klarabella wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
1. Cerberus only got that far because they had several plants (spies) in C-Sec. It was likely the result of months-long planning.

Yes, what was the reason again the Reapers couldn't do that, too? With the help of indoctrinated agents?

The game established only one way to detect indoctrination IIRC: Vendetta.

And you remember that EDI  was like that? When she was shackled back in ME2? Only perifiral control was avalible to her. The same could be true of the Catalyst, should the theroy about being put into stasis by the prothean sabotage be disproved sometime in the future.

It could. But it's unlikely because a shackled AI shouldn't be able to kill its creators.
That the Catalyst is shackled is a theory ... or wishful thinking ... headcanon. That was invented to remove the huge disconnect between ME1' Sovereign and ME3's Reaper king. You'd need to invent new dots to connect to explain why anyone would task a shackled AI with solving a problem that its creators can't solve. Shackled means its extremely limited, right? And as I said it begs the question why these shackles didn't protect them from being harvested themselves. 

2. Sovergien was INSIDE the shell. That's the thing about shells: they don't protect if the enemy gets inside. Sovergien would have only been in trouble had it stayed locked OUTSIDE the Citadel's arms.
Sovergien had Saren at the controls, and a geth army to back him up, to keep the arms open, until Sovergien was in range, then sealed Sovergien inside the station, so that it could gain control without anyone being able to attack it.
The rest of the Reapers, by contrast, have no such army that can board the station in sigifigant numbers before the arms were sealed. Any indoctrinated they had were likely uprooted by Cerberus' own failed attempt.
Only when the Illusive Man goes there, knowing exactally where and when to go, do the Reapers take the station without the fear of being locked out and damaging it.

Don't get distracted. One Reaper found a way to take control of the Citadel. All it took was an army of synthetics and one indoctrinated agent who went into the Council chamber and got access to the main control panel.

You'd think there were ways to indoctrinate the right people to get someone to that control panel. (And that's assuming the Catalyst for some contrived reason is really trapped on the Citadel.)

Please note that at some point controlling the Citadel apparently was possibly (despite the defense system) ... and they still didn't shut down the relays!

And again, that "crappy plot device" was DREW'S idea - it was part of his Dark Energy plot, and has been around since the conception of the game's plot in ME1...

I don't care whose idea it was.

1. Cerberus accdently screwed them over. Thay may HAVE been planing to to the same thing, but Cerberus struck first, and the attack likely uprooted any plants the Reapers had on the Citadel, upending any plan to infiltrate it themselves. Their attack on the Citadel put it on to high of an alert statius to infiltrate in anymore. At least, not fast enough to do what Cerberus did.

2. The Leviathans themselves say that the Catalyst followed it's programming. If there was a conflict, it's primary directives (preservation of all life at any cost) won out, as it identified the Leviathans as part of the problem, and therefore not exempt. Besides, it doesn't see harvesting as killing. It sees it as ascention. A loophole, if you will.
Even the Leviathans say that the Catalyst made no mistake, and still serves it's purpose. So appirantly, it never really violated it's programming. So YES, it could indeed be shackled. It doesn't boid the lore at all.

The Catalyst was made to analyze the problem, and was only given servents when it believed it had a solution. The Leviathans never knew what that was until too late.

3. Again, the Reapers didn't have the proxy army that Sovergien had, nor a way to bypass the external defenses, as they no longer had the Conduit. And again, any indoctrinated they had on the staton were likely upended when Cerberus launched their attack. So they'd have to start all over, which it isn't till when the Illusive Man goes there personally that they can attack without the fear of the station closing and locking them out.
And in ME3, they had control of the Station for only hours, as far as I can tell, and had just finished moving the thing to Earth. I'm guessing the point of attacking Earth after Chronos that fast, was likely to hit the Citadel BEFORE the Reapers had the chance to lock down the relay network.

[silverexile17s]

Maxster_ wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I don't think we'll ever find out. But it's probably covered with as much bullsh!t as the "each cycle added more to the Crucible, improved it."

Anyway, how the fcuk can you improve something when you have no idea what it does? It would be like finding the first car- one bunch of people believe it's supposed to be a portable house. Another group believe it's supposed to be a holding cage for transporting criminals. Yet another think it's to make moonshine and the fact it moves mean you can escape from law enforcement. Yet we are supposed to believe every cycle somehow improved the Crucible without even know how it works or what it does. Yeah right. :|

Anyone who thinks that is plausible, have no idea about science and engineering.
That nonsensical concept just mocks them.

YOUR lack of comprehension is mocking YOU. I will say it again.
The Cruicble WASN'T ORIGINALLY BUILT WITH THE CATALYST IN MIND.
It was built as a stand-alone weapon. Then a later cycle adapted it to weaponize the Dark Energy emmited from the Citadel.
Eventually, someone may have discovered the Catalyst, but never got the chance to do anything about it. In time, the discriptions about the Catalyst and Citadel merged. When they refer to the Catalyst, THEY AREN'T TALKING ABOUT THE A.I. They mean the CITADEL.  They found the name, but NEVER realized it meant a seperate entity from within the Citadel itself.
The Catayst linking himself into the Crucible is something he automatically does, as he lives within the Citadel.
You are now IGNORING responces at this point, since I corrected you on this THREE TIMES.

[silverexile17s]

Jassu1979 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...
The Protheans knew about the Reapers before they arrived. Why do you assume other cycles didn't?

How do you come to this conclusion? Did I miss some retcon in ME3?
The original Mass Effect game established that the Reapers wiped out galactic civilizations starting with a surprise attack, without the organic races being aware of the threat until the harvest was already underway:
They opened the Citadel portal, took out the centre of Galactic government and commerce before anybody even knew what hit them, shut down the relay network, and then proceeded to harvest all the isolated worlds.
The Protheans built the beacons *after* the harvest started, and they had no prior knowledge of the Reapers.

There is a revelation from what you know.
Javik tells you that the protheans had discovered evidence of the Reapers before their arrival. (you can double-check the ME wiki for sources. It's all there) They're preperations to combat them was half the reason they wanted to unite all the orgianics in a single empire, and the reason they discovered the Crucible plans. However, they never found out how the Reapers planned to invade. Not till it was too late.
P.S. The beacons existed long before the invasion. They were part of the prothean information network. The message detailing their failure, and warrning the next cycle of what was to come, what put in after the Reapers came in.

[silverexile17s]

Indy_S wrote...

Arguments based on hypotheticals serve to only disprove something. You can not rely on evidence that is only 'possible' as it creates a hypothetical. If you can not prove something by disproving all other options, the argument is unsolvable.

You cannot make the claim that the Catalyst was asleep. Nobody can use the Leviathan Theory to justify the Tractor's continual survival and original purpose.

I don't agree with the Leviathan theroy, nor did I ever endorse it.
But the Catalyst being in statsis is one of the only other possibilaties. The only other one that makes sense is that the Catalyst was isolated from the Citadel, living as a seperate entity, or was a shackled one, like EDI.

[Leem_0001]

silverexile17s wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I don't think we'll ever find out. But it's probably covered with as much bullsh!t as the "each cycle added more to the Crucible, improved it."

Anyway, how the fcuk can you improve something when you have no idea what it does? It would be like finding the first car- one bunch of people believe it's supposed to be a portable house. Another group believe it's supposed to be a holding cage for transporting criminals. Yet another think it's to make moonshine and the fact it moves mean you can escape from law enforcement. Yet we are supposed to believe every cycle somehow improved the Crucible without even know how it works or what it does. Yeah right. :|

Anyone who thinks that is plausible, have no idea about science and engineering.
That nonsensical concept just mocks them.

YOUR lack of comprehension is mocking YOU. I will say it again.
The Cruicble WASN'T ORIGINALLY BUILT WITH THE CATALYST IN MIND.
It was built as a stand-alone weapon. Then a later cycle adapted it to weaponize the Dark Energy emmited from the Citadel.
Eventually, someone may have discovered the Catalyst, but never got the chance to do anything about it. In time, the discriptions about the Catalyst and Citadel merged. When they refer to the Catalyst, THEY AREN'T TALKING ABOUT THE A.I. They mean the CITADEL.  They found the name, but NEVER realized it meant a seperate entity from within the Citadel itself.
The Catayst linking himself into the Crucible is something he automatically does, as he lives within the Citadel.
You are now IGNORING responces at this point, since I corrected you on this THREE TIMES.

But Silver, keeping it civil, why are you hung up on when the Catalyst was introduced to the design? I know you aren't replying to me here, but when it was added is irrelevant. The fact is it was added, even though no one knew of its existence.

And no one discovered the Catalyst, so its no good someone 'may have' discovered him. The Catalyst tells Shepard as much. So no one knew about him / it. So discription about the Catalyst and Citadel did not merge at all. That is the problem. No one knew about the Catalyst yet at some point it was incorporarted into the design of the Cruicible. This is why it does not work. Your theory of previous races just mixing up terminology does not stack up.

[Leem_0001]

silverexile17s wrote...

Jassu1979 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...
The Protheans knew about the Reapers before they arrived. Why do you assume other cycles didn't?

How do you come to this conclusion? Did I miss some retcon in ME3?
The original Mass Effect game established that the Reapers wiped out galactic civilizations starting with a surprise attack, without the organic races being aware of the threat until the harvest was already underway:
They opened the Citadel portal, took out the centre of Galactic government and commerce before anybody even knew what hit them, shut down the relay network, and then proceeded to harvest all the isolated worlds.
The Protheans built the beacons *after* the harvest started, and they had no prior knowledge of the Reapers.

There is a revelation from what you know.
Javik tells you that the protheans had discovered evidence of the Reapers before their arrival. (you can double-check the ME wiki for sources. It's all there) They're preperations to combat them was half the reason they wanted to unite all the orgianics in a single empire, and the reason they discovered the Crucible plans. However, they never found out how the Reapers planned to invade. Not till it was too late.
P.S. The beacons existed long before the invasion. They were part of the prothean information network. The message detailing their failure, and warrning the next cycle of what was to come, what put in after the Reapers came in.

Yeah, Javik says all this, Silver is correct. It IS retcon to what we were told in ME1 though (not the part about the information network being in existance prior to Reaper attack - that was highlighted in ME1).

And Silver, would you agree that it is pretty crucial information that is required to understand some of what is going on? Therefore to make it additonal paid DLC is pretty dispicable?

[silverexile17s]

Leem_0001 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I don't think we'll ever find out. But it's probably covered with as much bullsh!t as the "each cycle added more to the Crucible, improved it."

Anyway, how the fcuk can you improve something when you have no idea what it does? It would be like finding the first car- one bunch of people believe it's supposed to be a portable house. Another group believe it's supposed to be a holding cage for transporting criminals. Yet another think it's to make moonshine and the fact it moves mean you can escape from law enforcement. Yet we are supposed to believe every cycle somehow improved the Crucible without even know how it works or what it does. Yeah right. :|

Anyone who thinks that is plausible, have no idea about science and engineering.
That nonsensical concept just mocks them.

YOUR lack of comprehension is mocking YOU. I will say it again.
The Cruicble WASN'T ORIGINALLY BUILT WITH THE CATALYST IN MIND.
It was built as a stand-alone weapon. Then a later cycle adapted it to weaponize the Dark Energy emmited from the Citadel.
Eventually, someone may have discovered the Catalyst, but never got the chance to do anything about it. In time, the discriptions about the Catalyst and Citadel merged. When they refer to the Catalyst, THEY AREN'T TALKING ABOUT THE A.I. They mean the CITADEL.  They found the name, but NEVER realized it meant a seperate entity from within the Citadel itself.
The Catayst linking himself into the Crucible is something he automatically does, as he lives within the Citadel.
You are now IGNORING responces at this point, since I corrected you on this THREE TIMES.

But Silver, keeping it civil, why are you hung up on when the Catalyst was introduced to the design? I know you aren't replying to me here, but when it was added is irrelevant. The fact is it was added, even though no one knew of its existence.

And no one discovered the Catalyst, so its no good someone 'may have' discovered him. The Catalyst tells Shepard as much. So no one knew about him / it. So discription about the Catalyst and Citadel did not merge at all. That is the problem. No one knew about the Catalyst yet at some point it was incorporarted into the design of the Cruicible. This is why it does not work. Your theory of previous races just mixing up terminology does not stack up.

The Catalyst, as in the A.I. wasn't made to be part of it. It WASN'T added to the plan. Only the Citadel was part of that. No one knew the "Catalyst" refered ti the A.I. in the Citadel. The idea is that the race that made the addition found refrecne to the Catalyst, but never knew what it was. Instead, the assume that the Catalyst is the name of the station itself.
(Vendetta says "in your cycle, it is refered to as the Citadel." Implying that not every cycle called it that.)
The CITADEL is what was knowingly added. No one knew about the A.I. inside, or that one was the other, or that you get one with the other.
The ones that made the Crucible able to link with the Citadel did so with the intent of linking it to the station. Not the A.I. inside, as they likely had no clue that it was what the term Catalyst refered to, instead assuming Catalyst was the name of the station.
You think that no one knew about the Catalyst. That is correct. However, the name didn't stay hidden. The race that built the Crucible's adaptations assumed "Catalyst" was the name of the Station, not anything inside it.

So in truth, the A.I. WASN'T part of the original plan.

[Leem_0001]

silverexile17s wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I don't think we'll ever find out. But it's probably covered with as much bullsh!t as the "each cycle added more to the Crucible, improved it."

Anyway, how the fcuk can you improve something when you have no idea what it does? It would be like finding the first car- one bunch of people believe it's supposed to be a portable house. Another group believe it's supposed to be a holding cage for transporting criminals. Yet another think it's to make moonshine and the fact it moves mean you can escape from law enforcement. Yet we are supposed to believe every cycle somehow improved the Crucible without even know how it works or what it does. Yeah right. :|

Anyone who thinks that is plausible, have no idea about science and engineering.
That nonsensical concept just mocks them.

YOUR lack of comprehension is mocking YOU. I will say it again.
The Cruicble WASN'T ORIGINALLY BUILT WITH THE CATALYST IN MIND.
It was built as a stand-alone weapon. Then a later cycle adapted it to weaponize the Dark Energy emmited from the Citadel.
Eventually, someone may have discovered the Catalyst, but never got the chance to do anything about it. In time, the discriptions about the Catalyst and Citadel merged. When they refer to the Catalyst, THEY AREN'T TALKING ABOUT THE A.I. They mean the CITADEL.  They found the name, but NEVER realized it meant a seperate entity from within the Citadel itself.
The Catayst linking himself into the Crucible is something he automatically does, as he lives within the Citadel.
You are now IGNORING responces at this point, since I corrected you on this THREE TIMES.

But Silver, keeping it civil, why are you hung up on when the Catalyst was introduced to the design? I know you aren't replying to me here, but when it was added is irrelevant. The fact is it was added, even though no one knew of its existence.

And no one discovered the Catalyst, so its no good someone 'may have' discovered him. The Catalyst tells Shepard as much. So no one knew about him / it. So discription about the Catalyst and Citadel did not merge at all. That is the problem. No one knew about the Catalyst yet at some point it was incorporarted into the design of the Cruicible. This is why it does not work. Your theory of previous races just mixing up terminology does not stack up.

The Catalyst, as in the A.I. wasn't made to be part of it. It WASN'T added to the plan. Only the Citadel was part of that. No one knew the "Catalyst" refered ti the A.I. in the Citadel. The idea is that the race that made the addition found refrecne to the Catalyst, but never knew what it was. Instead, the assume that the Catalyst is the name of the station itself.
(Vendetta says "in your cycle, it is refered to as the Citadel." Implying that not every cycle called it that.)
The CITADEL is what was knowingly added. No one knew about the A.I. inside, or that one was the other, or that you get one with the other.
The ones that made the Crucible able to link with the Citadel did so with the intent of linking it to the station. Not the A.I. inside, as they likely had no clue that it was what the term Catalyst refered to, instead assuming Catalyst was the name of the station.
You think that no one knew about the Catalyst. That is correct. However, the name didn't stay hidden. The race that built the Crucible's adaptations assumed "Catalyst" was the name of the Station, not anything inside it.

So in truth, the A.I. WASN'T part of the original plan.

Okay, then that is where our opinions differ wildly. Which is fair, not even one will agree. You say it is the terminology that is the mix up.

The reason I disagree with that is that we already thought the Citadel was the Catalyst. That is why we are trying to get the Crucible there. That was the idea all along. The problem is, the AI specifically says HE is the Catalyst. Not the Citadel. He specifically says this. So that would go against your theory of thinking it is simply a terminology mix up.

Like you say, no one knew about the AI. But he specifically says it is he that is the Catalyst and NOT the Citadel.

[silverexile17s]

Leem_0001 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Jassu1979 wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...
The Protheans knew about the Reapers before they arrived. Why do you assume other cycles didn't?

How do you come to this conclusion? Did I miss some retcon in ME3?
The original Mass Effect game established that the Reapers wiped out galactic civilizations starting with a surprise attack, without the organic races being aware of the threat until the harvest was already underway:
They opened the Citadel portal, took out the centre of Galactic government and commerce before anybody even knew what hit them, shut down the relay network, and then proceeded to harvest all the isolated worlds.
The Protheans built the beacons *after* the harvest started, and they had no prior knowledge of the Reapers.

There is a revelation from what you know.
Javik tells you that the protheans had discovered evidence of the Reapers before their arrival. (you can double-check the ME wiki for sources. It's all there) They're preperations to combat them was half the reason they wanted to unite all the orgianics in a single empire, and the reason they discovered the Crucible plans. However, they never found out how the Reapers planned to invade. Not till it was too late.
P.S. The beacons existed long before the invasion. They were part of the prothean information network. The message detailing their failure, and warrning the next cycle of what was to come, what put in after the Reapers came in.

Yeah, Javik says all this, Silver is correct. It IS retcon to what we were told in ME1 though (not the part about the information network being in existance prior to Reaper attack - that was highlighted in ME1).

And Silver, would you agree that it is pretty crucial information that is required to understand some of what is going on? Therefore to make it additonal paid DLC is pretty dispicable?

1. First, nothing Vigil says in ME1 contridicts Javik, as (a) Vigil says that it was progamed to monitor the scientists in stasis, indicating that it was programed after Ilos went dark, and all information halted, as well as ( all it's memory banks suffering severe degredation. So it not having any information on the Crucible could be believed. Albiet, on a suspension of disbelief that a top-secret research facilaty could have no information on the last hope of their people. But again, the above points make it possible at least.
Although, that doesn't make you less pissed off about why no offical reason is given, or less ticked about why you are left guessing in the dark on how to fit it all together.

2. Second. YES. Fully and completely agree with you. I HATED that the Crucible wasn;t intoduced till ME3. Something so improtant to the story, in my opinion, shoild have been fully introduced in mid to late ME2. Or fully teased in an ME2 DLC. Not as a fleeting mention.
The Crucible isn't horrible in it's plot, but the way the material was handled, and the lack of expansion on it, really pissed me off.

[silverexile17s]

Leem_0001 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I don't think we'll ever find out. But it's probably covered with as much bullsh!t as the "each cycle added more to the Crucible, improved it."

Anyway, how the fcuk can you improve something when you have no idea what it does? It would be like finding the first car- one bunch of people believe it's supposed to be a portable house. Another group believe it's supposed to be a holding cage for transporting criminals. Yet another think it's to make moonshine and the fact it moves mean you can escape from law enforcement. Yet we are supposed to believe every cycle somehow improved the Crucible without even know how it works or what it does. Yeah right. :|

Anyone who thinks that is plausible, have no idea about science and engineering.
That nonsensical concept just mocks them.

YOUR lack of comprehension is mocking YOU. I will say it again.
The Cruicble WASN'T ORIGINALLY BUILT WITH THE CATALYST IN MIND.
It was built as a stand-alone weapon. Then a later cycle adapted it to weaponize the Dark Energy emmited from the Citadel.
Eventually, someone may have discovered the Catalyst, but never got the chance to do anything about it. In time, the discriptions about the Catalyst and Citadel merged. When they refer to the Catalyst, THEY AREN'T TALKING ABOUT THE A.I. They mean the CITADEL.  They found the name, but NEVER realized it meant a seperate entity from within the Citadel itself.
The Catayst linking himself into the Crucible is something he automatically does, as he lives within the Citadel.
You are now IGNORING responces at this point, since I corrected you on this THREE TIMES.

But Silver, keeping it civil, why are you hung up on when the Catalyst was introduced to the design? I know you aren't replying to me here, but when it was added is irrelevant. The fact is it was added, even though no one knew of its existence.

And no one discovered the Catalyst, so its no good someone 'may have' discovered him. The Catalyst tells Shepard as much. So no one knew about him / it. So discription about the Catalyst and Citadel did not merge at all. That is the problem. No one knew about the Catalyst yet at some point it was incorporarted into the design of the Cruicible. This is why it does not work. Your theory of previous races just mixing up terminology does not stack up.

The Catalyst, as in the A.I. wasn't made to be part of it. It WASN'T added to the plan. Only the Citadel was part of that. No one knew the "Catalyst" refered ti the A.I. in the Citadel. The idea is that the race that made the addition found refrecne to the Catalyst, but never knew what it was. Instead, the assume that the Catalyst is the name of the station itself.
(Vendetta says "in your cycle, it is refered to as the Citadel." Implying that not every cycle called it that.)
The CITADEL is what was knowingly added. No one knew about the A.I. inside, or that one was the other, or that you get one with the other.
The ones that made the Crucible able to link with the Citadel did so with the intent of linking it to the station. Not the A.I. inside, as they likely had no clue that it was what the term Catalyst refered to, instead assuming Catalyst was the name of the station.
You think that no one knew about the Catalyst. That is correct. However, the name didn't stay hidden. The race that built the Crucible's adaptations assumed "Catalyst" was the name of the Station, not anything inside it.

So in truth, the A.I. WASN'T part of the original plan.

Okay, then that is where our opinions differ wildly. Which is fair, not even one will agree. You say it is the terminology that is the mix up.

The reason I disagree with that is that we already thought the Citadel was the Catalyst. That is why we are trying to get the Crucible there. That was the idea all along. The problem is, the AI specifically says HE is the Catalyst. Not the Citadel. He specifically says this. So that would go against your theory of thinking it is simply a terminology mix up.

Like you say, no one knew about the AI. But he specifically says it is he that is the Catalyst and NOT the Citadel.

Probably ment to be a shock, in that he is unexpected. Yes, the termonology was likely mixed up. The race that altered the orginal Crucible to interface with the Citadel, likely thought the station was called "the Catalyst." They likely found a refrence to it from some other cycle, and figured this was the name of the station.
Or hell, maybe the race named the station Catalyst on their own, and he liked the name.

Also, given this set-up, it brings up the disturbing idea that the A.I. has interposed itself into the process of the link up. If the A.I. isn't supposed to be part of the process, why does he block it?
He intervienes in Shepard's choice!
I'm guessing that Destroy is the original mode - the way the Crucible was supposed to work. It seems the Catalyst forced itself into the mix so that he could bring his own solutions into it (Synthesis and possibly Control).
If he DID invent these two, that would mean he is actively minipulating Shepard away from Destroy by creating other options to choose from.
This brings up disturbing revelations into the Catalyst's nature regarding Shepard's choices. By saying that it's the commanders choice, and then ineventing new choices so that the original is less likely to be chosen, he is basically lying to the Commander about not intervening in the decision.
No wonder there were so many IT believers.

You seem to have brought to me a bit of a revelation on that. I need to think this over.

[Leem_0001]

silverexile17s wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

KiwiQuiche wrote...

I don't think we'll ever find out. But it's probably covered with as much bullsh!t as the "each cycle added more to the Crucible, improved it."

Anyway, how the fcuk can you improve something when you have no idea what it does? It would be like finding the first car- one bunch of people believe it's supposed to be a portable house. Another group believe it's supposed to be a holding cage for transporting criminals. Yet another think it's to make moonshine and the fact it moves mean you can escape from law enforcement. Yet we are supposed to believe every cycle somehow improved the Crucible without even know how it works or what it does. Yeah right. :|

Anyone who thinks that is plausible, have no idea about science and engineering.
That nonsensical concept just mocks them.

YOUR lack of comprehension is mocking YOU. I will say it again.
The Cruicble WASN'T ORIGINALLY BUILT WITH THE CATALYST IN MIND.
It was built as a stand-alone weapon. Then a later cycle adapted it to weaponize the Dark Energy emmited from the Citadel.
Eventually, someone may have discovered the Catalyst, but never got the chance to do anything about it. In time, the discriptions about the Catalyst and Citadel merged. When they refer to the Catalyst, THEY AREN'T TALKING ABOUT THE A.I. They mean the CITADEL.  They found the name, but NEVER realized it meant a seperate entity from within the Citadel itself.
The Catayst linking himself into the Crucible is something he automatically does, as he lives within the Citadel.
You are now IGNORING responces at this point, since I corrected you on this THREE TIMES.

But Silver, keeping it civil, why are you hung up on when the Catalyst was introduced to the design? I know you aren't replying to me here, but when it was added is irrelevant. The fact is it was added, even though no one knew of its existence.

And no one discovered the Catalyst, so its no good someone 'may have' discovered him. The Catalyst tells Shepard as much. So no one knew about him / it. So discription about the Catalyst and Citadel did not merge at all. That is the problem. No one knew about the Catalyst yet at some point it was incorporarted into the design of the Cruicible. This is why it does not work. Your theory of previous races just mixing up terminology does not stack up.

The Catalyst, as in the A.I. wasn't made to be part of it. It WASN'T added to the plan. Only the Citadel was part of that. No one knew the "Catalyst" refered ti the A.I. in the Citadel. The idea is that the race that made the addition found refrecne to the Catalyst, but never knew what it was. Instead, the assume that the Catalyst is the name of the station itself.
(Vendetta says "in your cycle, it is refered to as the Citadel." Implying that not every cycle called it that.)
The CITADEL is what was knowingly added. No one knew about the A.I. inside, or that one was the other, or that you get one with the other.
The ones that made the Crucible able to link with the Citadel did so with the intent of linking it to the station. Not the A.I. inside, as they likely had no clue that it was what the term Catalyst refered to, instead assuming Catalyst was the name of the station.
You think that no one knew about the Catalyst. That is correct. However, the name didn't stay hidden. The race that built the Crucible's adaptations assumed "Catalyst" was the name of the Station, not anything inside it.

So in truth, the A.I. WASN'T part of the original plan.

Okay, then that is where our opinions differ wildly. Which is fair, not even one will agree. You say it is the terminology that is the mix up.

The reason I disagree with that is that we already thought the Citadel was the Catalyst. That is why we are trying to get the Crucible there. That was the idea all along. The problem is, the AI specifically says HE is the Catalyst. Not the Citadel. He specifically says this. So that would go against your theory of thinking it is simply a terminology mix up.

Like you say, no one knew about the AI. But he specifically says it is he that is the Catalyst and NOT the Citadel.

Probably ment to be a shock, in that he is unexpected. Yes, the termonology was likely mixed up. The race that altered the orginal Crucible to interface with the Citadel, likely thought the station was called "the Catalyst." They likely found a refrence to it from some other cycle, and figured this was the name of the station.
Or hell, maybe the race named the station Catalyst on their own, and he liked the name.

Also, given this set-up, it brings up the disturbing idea that the A.I. has interposed itself into the process of the link up. If the A.I. isn't supposed to be part of the process, why does he block it?
He intervienes in Shepard's choice!
I'm guessing that Destroy is the original mode - the way the Crucible was supposed to work. It seems the Catalyst forced itself into the mix so that he could bring his own solutions into it (Synthesis and possibly Control).
If he DID invent these two, that would mean he is actively minipulating Shepard away from Destroy by creating other options to choose from.
This brings up disturbing revelations into the Catalyst's nature regarding Shepard's choices. By saying that it's the commanders choice, and then ineventing new choices so that the original is less likely to be chosen, he is basically lying to the Commander about not intervening in the decision.
No wonder there were so many IT believers.

You seem to have brought to me a bit of a revelation on that. I need to think this over.

Let me know what you come up with. We may disagree, but no reason we can't have a discussion on it.

[Wayning_Star]

wouldn't it be that the original designers knew what they were doing in designing the crucible, but we simply don't? just say'n

[silverexile17s]

Wayning_Star wrote...

wouldn't it be that the original designers knew what they were doing in designing the crucible, but we simply don't? just say'n

That could also be true, but it wouldn't explain why no one ever knew the Catalyst was an A.I., and not the Citadel. Every race seems to belive the Catalyst is just a fancy name for the Citadel in regards ro the Crucible link-up. No one seemed to know that the term "Catalyst" refered to an A.I. inside the Citadel.

Which is disturbing, because if he ISN'T part of the original intended design of the Crucible, WHY is he interfearing with Shepard's decision?
He's lying to Shepard, by saying that he won't interfear, when the very act of revealing himself, and stopping Shepard's imediate choice is an act of interfearance on his part. If he can interpose himself into the Crucible/Citadel link like that, then it's possible that HE created the Systhesis ending, and possibly Control.
By minipulating the Crucible like that and creating new options, he is activaly minipulating Shepard by creating alternitives that could be more appealing to Shepard. His claim to not infulence Shepard's choice has already been broken, because he has altered the Crucible to work in more then one way now, and by forcing Shepard to choose. This weakens Shepard's resolve, because if there was only the original weapon mode (Destroy) then the Commander could atribute to having no choice in doing so to stop the Reapers. Forcing a choice like this plauges Shepard with self-doubt, as now there are other choices, and no way to be sure which is best.

The Catalyst really is trying to guide Shepard away from Destroy, and to one of the other options, Synthesis likely being the primary goal.