352 réponses à ce sujet

[fr33stylez]

They were better off simply saying it was of Prothean origin, they thought way too hard on this particular 'WIN' button.

The implausibility of such a device being passed on cycle after cycle, conveniently found post-invasion, with no one knowing what it does, but 'adding' to it anyways, with the Catalyst admitting they knew about the plans but accidently failed to destroy it, even though the Catalyst should've been able to tell the device would help its synthesis solution...is just...wow

Modifié par fr33stylez, 17 janvier 2013 - 03:00 .

[BleedingUranium]

I'm sure the Reapers knew exactly what it was when they designed it. Unfortunately, we still don't know.

[Lyrandori]

I believe that, originally, the Crucible's concept was simply that of a giant cooking station, to cook pancakes that all the galaxy's species - and until the end of time - could enjoy. But it turned out a machine that contains some A.I. troll, go figure how that one happened.

[survivor_686]

Maxster_ wrote...

survivor_686 wrote...

I'd liken it more to a sophisticated nuke capable of manipulating mass-relays. Over the cycles each species added its own knowledge to the design, refining it. It originally may have started as a giant bomb, but another cycle added a refinement to it (say deliver a more measured radiation dosage), another generation added the coding needed to interface with the Citadel, another generation added a counter-AI module to it and so and so forth.

This is nonsense.
They had no idea that Catalyst even existed, and suddenly adding counter-AI module to a battery. 

So, someone designed a unknown device with unknown function, which should interface with another unknown device with unknown function, unknown interface, unknown location, unconfirmed existence, and even need of it. And suddenly, such a device somehow alters a programming of an AI, no one even knew it existed.

Riight.

Meh...it was the best I could come up with. and the counter AI example was just an random idea.

At the end of the day, its simply a giant Mcguffin

[111987]

The Protheans could have known about the Reapers existence beforehand, just not about the Citadel trap and what not.

In any case, the Leviathans making the Crucible, via a thrall race, seems to make the most sense. It would explain how the tech is so advanced others can't figure it out, and how the plans keep surviving throughout the cycles. And it would explain how it takes in account the Citadel in its design and how it is capable of 'changing' the Catalyst.

[Cypher_CS]

fr33stylez wrote...

How could they not? Or did they say "let's start building something and see where we end up"?

If they did know what they were building, why can't subsequent cycles decipher this from the blueprints? How can you 'add' to something when you have no idea what it is?

Another question: why didn't the original creators of the Crucible simply build something that targets the Reapers?

Here's my take on it, my understanding of the various bits of information and reading between the lines.

The Crucible was built as is.
A giant weapon to targer Reapers. A sort of EMP generator that targets specific frequencies. Maybe a Mass Effect Field Pulse generator.

However, even if they did manage to activate it, it would have had a limited range. A local cluster or system range. Not beyond. And since Reapers kill all Mass Relay travel, they can't even go system to system to trigger it.
What they are missing is a way to fire it to affect the entire galaxy all at once.
The Crucible needs... a person, or some Thing, that precipitates an event, or an agent that provokes or speeds significant change or action... Hmmm, that sounds remarkably like the [non chemical] definition of the word Catalyst. Weird, that.

Which is why it never worked, and if it did, it worked only locally.
This Cycle is the first cycle where the Reapers didn't arrive through that one agent, through that one thing that can actually precipitate the event through the entire galaxy - the Citadel.

So yeah, they knew what they were building, just didn't have a way to do it big enough, or direct enough, or immediate enough.

[Ieldra]

That sounds plausible, Cypher_CS. Also, I think that the Citadel interface was added later, after it was decided that the weapon had to target objects across the whole galaxy at the same time.

So it might have gone this way:
(1) The initial designers of the Crucible designed it as a Reaper-destroying device.
(2) The Control and Synthesis options were added by the species of later cycles.
(3) The Citadel interface was added by the species of a later cycle.

It's just annoying that the writers made the present civilization so ignorant about its purpose for reasons of drama.... we are a rather underdeveloped cycle, in spite of the delayed Reaper invasion.

[Indy_S]

The original creators designed a rather sleek tractor. They even had a few working models but only the blueprints survived. The next cycle thought 'Why can't it fly?' and so they adapted it to fly. The next cycle misunderstood the scale and made it a few hundred times larger. The next cycle looked at something this large and asked 'Why isn't it in space?' and so it was changed. The next race believed that the now-massive spaceship would be a great place to keep a rather large battery. The next race thought that it would be incredibly useful if this ship was attached to the Citadel to provide additional power in case the Citadel's misunderstood power supply failed. And so on until the Protheans decided that putting a bubble on the front 'only makes sense'.

And then it reaches us as the ultimate doomsday weapon we were hoping for.

[KiwiQuiche]

It's just craptastic writing. Try not to think about it too much.

[Maxster_]

Indy_S wrote...

The original creators designed a rather sleek tractor. They even had a few working models but only the blueprints survived. The next cycle thought 'Why can't it fly?' and so they adapted it to fly. The next cycle misunderstood the scale and made it a few hundred times larger. The next cycle looked at something this large and asked 'Why isn't it in space?' and so it was changed. The next race believed that the now-massive spaceship would be a great place to keep a rather large battery. The next race thought that it would be incredibly useful if this ship was attached to the Citadel to provide additional power in case the Citadel's misunderstood power supply failed. And so on until the Protheans decided that putting a bubble on the front 'only makes sense'.

And then it reaches us as the ultimate doomsday weapon we were hoping for.

You, sir, is a winner. :lol::lol:

[CronoDragoon]

Kabooooom wrote...

lol, the Protheans didn't know anything about the Reapers. They got pwned. Replay ME1.

Or you could pay attention to Mass Effect 3, where they flat out state the Protheans knew beforehand. If the wiki isn't good enough for you - masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Prothean - then I can be more specific.

Also, the first builders of the Crucible HAD to know what they were building. It'd be like building a gun piece by piece with no conception or understanding of what it would ultimately become...and then STILL having it turn out to be a gun...and then shooting yourself in the foot with it. That is nonsense.

And because that is nonsense, many people have proposed that the original builders had to know about the existence of the Catalyst, by default. And that kind of narrows down the list of possible candidates to: the Reapers (unlikely), the Leviathans (possibly via a thrall race), or an unknown race in a pre-existing cycle that was far, far more advanced and knowledgeable than even the Protheans (in my opinion, also unlikely).

I incline towards the Leviathan theory, however it ultimately comes down to whether or not the Crucible houses the programming for the different ways to utilize the relay network. If it is in fact merely an energy device, a giant battery as the Catalyst claims, then it would be easy for people to build it without knowing the ways it could ultimately be used. Now, creating the plans from scratch without knowing what the Catalyst is....that's a different matter, and births theories such as "the Leviathans created/modified the plans."

[Xamufam]

Modifié par Troxa, 21 janvier 2013 - 06:04 .

[matt-bassist]

they were trying to set us up the bomb, and then they realised the citadel could shoot the bomb to all the systems and take out all Reapers at once. the end.

[fr33stylez]

Indy_S wrote...

The original creators designed a rather sleek tractor. They even had a few working models but only the blueprints survived. The next cycle thought 'Why can't it fly?' and so they adapted it to fly. The next cycle misunderstood the scale and made it a few hundred times larger. The next cycle looked at something this large and asked 'Why isn't it in space?' and so it was changed. The next race believed that the now-massive spaceship would be a great place to keep a rather large battery. The next race thought that it would be incredibly useful if this ship was attached to the Citadel to provide additional power in case the Citadel's misunderstood power supply failed. And so on until the Protheans decided that putting a bubble on the front 'only makes sense'.

And then it reaches us as the ultimate doomsday weapon we were hoping for.

[Revthejedi]

Cypher_CS wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

How could they not? Or did they say "let's start building something and see where we end up"?

If they did know what they were building, why can't subsequent cycles decipher this from the blueprints? How can you 'add' to something when you have no idea what it is?

Another question: why didn't the original creators of the Crucible simply build something that targets the Reapers?

Here's my take on it, my understanding of the various bits of information and reading between the lines.

The Crucible was built as is.
A giant weapon to targer Reapers. A sort of EMP generator that targets specific frequencies. Maybe a Mass Effect Field Pulse generator.

However, even if they did manage to activate it, it would have had a limited range. A local cluster or system range. Not beyond. And since Reapers kill all Mass Relay travel, they can't even go system to system to trigger it.
What they are missing is a way to fire it to affect the entire galaxy all at once.
The Crucible needs... a person, or some Thing, that precipitates an event, or an agent that provokes or speeds significant change or action... Hmmm, that sounds remarkably like the [non chemical] definition of the word Catalyst. Weird, that.

Which is why it never worked, and if it did, it worked only locally.
This Cycle is the first cycle where the Reapers didn't arrive through that one agent, through that one thing that can actually precipitate the event through the entire galaxy - the Citadel.

So yeah, they knew what they were building, just didn't have a way to do it big enough, or direct enough, or immediate enough.

That actually kind of makes sense. Still the whole 3 choices thing is extremely dumb, why not just focus on a destroy option that only you know, destroys reapers.

[Sajuro]

Revthejedi wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

How could they not? Or did they say "let's start building something and see where we end up"?

If they did know what they were building, why can't subsequent cycles decipher this from the blueprints? How can you 'add' to something when you have no idea what it is?

Another question: why didn't the original creators of the Crucible simply build something that targets the Reapers?

Here's my take on it, my understanding of the various bits of information and reading between the lines.

The Crucible was built as is.
A giant weapon to targer Reapers. A sort of EMP generator that targets specific frequencies. Maybe a Mass Effect Field Pulse generator.

However, even if they did manage to activate it, it would have had a limited range. A local cluster or system range. Not beyond. And since Reapers kill all Mass Relay travel, they can't even go system to system to trigger it.
What they are missing is a way to fire it to affect the entire galaxy all at once.
The Crucible needs... a person, or some Thing, that precipitates an event, or an agent that provokes or speeds significant change or action... Hmmm, that sounds remarkably like the [non chemical] definition of the word Catalyst. Weird, that.

Which is why it never worked, and if it did, it worked only locally.
This Cycle is the first cycle where the Reapers didn't arrive through that one agent, through that one thing that can actually precipitate the event through the entire galaxy - the Citadel.

So yeah, they knew what they were building, just didn't have a way to do it big enough, or direct enough, or immediate enough.

That actually kind of makes sense. Still the whole 3 choices thing is extremely dumb, why not just focus on a destroy option that only you know, destroys reapers.

Because some race said "We're masters of the galaxy, we can control the Reapers

And then another race was like " I would sure love to have my pda even more embedded into my arm than it already is" or the Catalyst did that one on the fly.

[Cypher_CS]

Sajuro wrote...

Revthejedi wrote...

Cypher_CS wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

How could they not? Or did they say "let's start building something and see where we end up"?

If they did know what they were building, why can't subsequent cycles decipher this from the blueprints? How can you 'add' to something when you have no idea what it is?

Another question: why didn't the original creators of the Crucible simply build something that targets the Reapers?

Here's my take on it, my understanding of the various bits of information and reading between the lines.

The Crucible was built as is.
A giant weapon to targer Reapers. A sort of EMP generator that targets specific frequencies. Maybe a Mass Effect Field Pulse generator.

However, even if they did manage to activate it, it would have had a limited range. A local cluster or system range. Not beyond. And since Reapers kill all Mass Relay travel, they can't even go system to system to trigger it.
What they are missing is a way to fire it to affect the entire galaxy all at once.
The Crucible needs... a person, or some Thing, that precipitates an event, or an agent that provokes or speeds significant change or action... Hmmm, that sounds remarkably like the [non chemical] definition of the word Catalyst. Weird, that.

Which is why it never worked, and if it did, it worked only locally.
This Cycle is the first cycle where the Reapers didn't arrive through that one agent, through that one thing that can actually precipitate the event through the entire galaxy - the Citadel.

So yeah, they knew what they were building, just didn't have a way to do it big enough, or direct enough, or immediate enough.

That actually kind of makes sense. Still the whole 3 choices thing is extremely dumb, why not just focus on a destroy option that only you know, destroys reapers.

Because some race said "We're masters of the galaxy, we can control the Reapers

And then another race was like " I would sure love to have my pda even more embedded into my arm than it already is" or the Catalyst did that one on the fly.

Actually, that's pretty close to it.
If you have the Javik DLC then you know about the Cerberus-like faction the Protheans had in their cycle.
They sabotaged the Crucible in their time.

Again, reading between the lines here, but I think that Sabotage is exactly what Control is.
Cerberus wanted to control the Reapers. So did that faction the Protheans had. So did probably other similar factions in previous cycles as well. So, again, another part of the not fully understood blueprints that might have been incorporated by previous Cerberus like factions.

As for Synthesis, I think it's the Catalyst's own creation.
The only evidence I have to support this is the Catalyst's desire for that choice and the whole talk about it in EC (yet to me it wasn't anything new, as I reached that same conclusion without EC).

[FreshRevenge]

I know this may be on the wrong thread but why was there a control option and destroy option on the citadel if the kid was the citadel? Why would the Leviathan make an intelligence with those options?

Modifié par FreshRevenge, 18 janvier 2013 - 04:50 .

[I am Sovereign]

"Let's build a deus ex machina plot device!" The plans were passed down from the Mac Walters species.

[Xamufam]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Kabooooom wrote...

lol, the Protheans didn't know anything about the Reapers. They got pwned. Replay ME1.

Or you could pay attention to Mass Effect 3, where they flat out state the Protheans knew beforehand. If the wiki isn't good enough for you - masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Prothean - then I can be more specific.

Also, the first builders of the Crucible HAD to know what they were building. It'd be like building a gun piece by piece with no conception or understanding of what it would ultimately become...and then STILL having it turn out to be a gun...and then shooting yourself in the foot with it. That is nonsense.

And because that is nonsense, many people have proposed that the original builders had to know about the existence of the Catalyst, by default. And that kind of narrows down the list of possible candidates to: the Reapers (unlikely), the Leviathans (possibly via a thrall race), or an unknown race in a pre-existing cycle that was far, far more advanced and knowledgeable than even the Protheans (in my opinion, also unlikely).

I incline towards the Leviathan theory, however it ultimately comes down to whether or not the Crucible houses the programming for the different ways to utilize the relay network. If it is in fact merely an energy device, a giant battery as the Catalyst claims, then it would be easy for people to build it without knowing the ways it could ultimately be used. Now, creating the plans from scratch without knowing what the Catalyst is....that's a different matter, and births theories such as "the Leviathans created/modified the plans."

Vigil said they were too late with the warning about the reapers & he knew about the collectors during the war so he should have known about the crucible plans. The protheans were also cut of from the relays so they should not even been able to build the crucible & they didn't have there own intersteller travel if they did the reapers would not have been able to kill them off.

main plot points outside the main story should never happen, ever bought a book that has major plot points outside of it that you have to buy separately.

www.youtube.com/watch

Dr_Extrem wrote...

For an immidiate change, you would have to alter the existing cell. the
cell is made off proteins and sugars. to alter the cell, you would have
to rearrange every atom in every molecule of every cell. subatomic
parts, the charge and state would have to be altered as well. within a
4-dimensional system.

18g of water, contain roughly 6.022 x 10²³
oxygen atoms and 2 x 6.022 x 10²³ atoms of hydrogen. all of them would
need to be treated equally and rearranged without any mistake.

good luck with that .. the friction caused by the molecular movement alone would vapourize the cell.

The synthesis ending jumps the shark. there is no scientific principle in the
meu, that supports this method. altering the mass of somehing is one
thing - molecular and cellular rearrangement are alien to this universe.

Modifié par Troxa, 18 janvier 2013 - 06:29 .

[Cypher_CS]

FreshRevenge wrote...

I know this may be on the wrong thread but why was there a control option and destroy option on the citadel if the kid was the citadel? Why would the Leviathan make an intelligence with those options?

That's NOT the Citadel, that's the Crucible.

[Zaalbar]

Marvin the martian created the crucible, back then though it was designated as the illubian q-36 explosive space modulator. Obviously the design as evovled since cartoons went to color.

[simonrana]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Kabooooom wrote...

lol, the Protheans didn't know anything about the Reapers. They got pwned. Replay ME1.

Or you could pay attention to Mass Effect 3, where they flat out state the Protheans knew beforehand. If the wiki isn't good enough for you - masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Prothean - then I can be more specific.

Also, the first builders of the Crucible HAD to know what they were building. It'd be like building a gun piece by piece with no conception or understanding of what it would ultimately become...and then STILL having it turn out to be a gun...and then shooting yourself in the foot with it. That is nonsense.

And because that is nonsense, many people have proposed that the original builders had to know about the existence of the Catalyst, by default. And that kind of narrows down the list of possible candidates to: the Reapers (unlikely), the Leviathans (possibly via a thrall race), or an unknown race in a pre-existing cycle that was far, far more advanced and knowledgeable than even the Protheans (in my opinion, also unlikely).

I incline towards the Leviathan theory, however it ultimately comes down to whether or not the Crucible houses the programming for the different ways to utilize the relay network. If it is in fact merely an energy device, a giant battery as the Catalyst claims, then it would be easy for people to build it without knowing the ways it could ultimately be used. Now, creating the plans from scratch without knowing what the Catalyst is....that's a different matter, and births theories such as "the Leviathans created/modified the plans."

Damn, I thought you were being dimwitted CronoDragoon but it turns out they did a total retcon that you knew about and I didn't! 

Can't say I'n happy with the retcon, though it isn't really that shocking since almost everything Javik says is a retcon!

But yeah there's no use trying to make sense of the crucible, like others have already mentioned it's a plot device that they never even tried to tally with existing lore and common sense.

[Xamufam]

wrong topic

Modifié par Troxa, 22 janvier 2013 - 08:10 .

[Sejborg]

What does your heart tell you?