352 réponses à ce sujet

[DeinonSlayer]

They had kind of a "blind watchmaker" thing going on.

[WhiteKnyght]

fr33stylez wrote...

How could they not? Or did they say "let's start building something and see where we end up"?

If they did know what they were building, why can't subsequent cycles decipher this from the blueprints? How can you 'add' to something when you have no idea what it is?

Another question: why didn't the original creators of the Crucible simply build something that targets the Reapers?

The Crucible is a battery, an enormous contstruct which, according to evidence given, converts dark energy into power(Shepard to Conrad: I'm building an enormous dark energy weapon. Can you help with that. Not to mention the element zero converter, and the optimized eezo capacitors.) Attaching it to the Citadel wasn't added till later,

My guess is that the Crucible was originally meant to be the power source of a weapon. That didn't pan out and some cycle learned about the Catalyst and figured they could adapt the Crucible and use it as more or less a hacking module.

Your other question: How do you tell a weapon of mass destruction to only target the Reapers? Especially when every bit of tech in the galaxy is derived from them.

[CronoDragoon]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Your other question: How do you tell a weapon of mass destruction to only target the Reapers? Especially when every bit of tech in the galaxy is derived from them.

How do you tell the Crucible to target only synthetic AI? Because that's what it does. It's no more contrived to have it target only the Reapers.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 22 janvier 2013 - 08:51 .

[Gervaise]

How do you target Reapers? You build in an inferometric array (may have got the spelling wrong) as stated in the codex on the Crucible. Originally based on our scanning technology, it allows them to locate and target Reapers anywhere in the galaxy. Since so much of the technology of the current cycles was passed on by the Reapers/previous cycles, there is no telling whether this bit of tech is a current cycle innovation or was invented earlier. However, it seems likely the Protheans had it since they were arguing over whether to control or destroy the Reapers with the Crucible. The Protheans of course would not have been bothered if it took out any other AIs as well but there does seem the implication during the current cycle that true AI status can only be achieved through Reaper tech. This presumably would account for why the Catalyst is so certain that all other synthetic life will be destroyed along with the Reapers. By the end of the game we discover that EDI had bits of Sovereign in her design and of course the Geth have achieved true AI autonomy through the use of the Reaper upgrade passed on by Legion.

It does seem likely that the Leviathan's had something to do with the creation of the Crucible but through a third party via their control orbs, and may even have continued to do so down the cycles in the same way, so it may be that they did blindside the Intelligence, which thought it was the original creation of some other species. That is why the plans were never totally lost, despite the fact that the Intelligence claims they thought they had disposed of them in previous cycles.

[kal_reegar]

So, after an epic hundred hours long story, it was all about the eternal conflict between an AI introduced in the last five minutes and a DLC .
And Shepard, the reapers, the protheans and everybody else are nothing but pawns on the chessboard.

What a wonderful story to tell



The crucible is little more than a rude power source. Stop. Don't speculate. Stick to the text.
When Shepard asks "who designed it?" the catalyst answers "you wouldn't know them" (and shepard knows the leviathans)

So no, the crucible wasn't designed by the leviathans and it doesn't hack the catalyst. It changed the catalyst. It's different.
Change doesn't imply being forced to do something. It really doesn't.

Also, hacking is NEVER mentioned.
On the contrary, things like "altered variables" and "my solution won't work anymore" are metioned.
The catalyst also explain how the crucible changed him in the next phrase... no virus, no hacking.. it creates new possibilities. New solutions.

my solution won't work anymore + new solutions -> is sufficient to explain the catalyst's actions.
Occam's razor. No need to imagine hacking or other things.

at least, imo.

[3DandBeyond]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

How could they not? Or did they say "let's start building something and see where we end up"?

If they did know what they were building, why can't subsequent cycles decipher this from the blueprints? How can you 'add' to something when you have no idea what it is?

Another question: why didn't the original creators of the Crucible simply build something that targets the Reapers?

The Crucible is a battery, an enormous contstruct which, according to evidence given, converts dark energy into power(Shepard to Conrad: I'm building an enormous dark energy weapon. Can you help with that. Not to mention the element zero converter, and the optimized eezo capacitors.) Attaching it to the Citadel wasn't added till later,

My guess is that the Crucible was originally meant to be the power source of a weapon. That didn't pan out and some cycle learned about the Catalyst and figured they could adapt the Crucible and use it as more or less a hacking module.

Your other question: How do you tell a weapon of mass destruction to only target the Reapers? Especially when every bit of tech in the galaxy is derived from them.

Your guess is that some cycle learned about the catalyst when no other cycle ever did-the last cycle thought it was the citadel and there's some sense in that because it would use the relays that the citadel had access to in order to distribute the energy.  But no one knew about the kid and his programming, therefore it was simply impossible for anyone to create a huge dark energy weapon that would alter his programming.  Shepard was the first and only person to get to where the kid was.

You can't hack a program if you don't know it exists.
 
The crucible is a big battery that someone then alters so that it can change an unknown thing.  Leviathan did not make the crucible plans-so someone just decided to make this weapon that somehow would go boom at reapers.  Then, later on it's altered to work with the citadel to disperse the energy aimed at reapers.  At some point along the way someone made it work to alter the AI's programming.  The only ones that knew about the AI are Shepard, Leviathan, and reaper type people.  Two of those people didn't make the crucible work to alter the kid.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 22 janvier 2013 - 10:51 .

[Reorte]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Your other question: How do you tell a weapon of mass destruction to only target the Reapers? Especially when every bit of tech in the galaxy is derived from them.

How do you tell the Crucible to target only synthetic AI? Because that's what it does. It's no more contrived to have it target only the Reapers.

Is saying "target Reaper tech" any more plausible than saying "target Japanese tech"? Is it likely that there's anything that unique and sensibly targettable by any sort of transmission that distinguishes Reaper tech from any others? Whilst just about conceivably possible it seems very unlikely. It gets even worse if it's supposed to target AI. The same piece of hardware may or may not be running AI software (geth can apparently upload to quarian suits after all, which quite honestly sounds equally unlikely if the Reaper updates have been applied - is a suit really going to have the necessary processing power to do that?).

[WhiteKnyght]

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Your other question: How do you tell a weapon of mass destruction to only target the Reapers? Especially when every bit of tech in the galaxy is derived from them.

How do you tell the Crucible to target only synthetic AI? Because that's what it does. It's no more contrived to have it target only the Reapers.

You don't?

Catalyst: Technology you rely on will also be affected. But the survivors should have little difficulty repairing the damage.

The pulse affects EVERYTHING technological. Which is why synthetic life dies. They're nothing but technology.

The only thing the Crucible's condition(screwed up, damaged, intact) measures is the how badly it is damaged.

[WhiteKnyght]

3DandBeyond wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

fr33stylez wrote...

How could they not? Or did they say "let's start building something and see where we end up"?

If they did know what they were building, why can't subsequent cycles decipher this from the blueprints? How can you 'add' to something when you have no idea what it is?

Another question: why didn't the original creators of the Crucible simply build something that targets the Reapers?

The Crucible is a battery, an enormous contstruct which, according to evidence given, converts dark energy into power(Shepard to Conrad: I'm building an enormous dark energy weapon. Can you help with that. Not to mention the element zero converter, and the optimized eezo capacitors.) Attaching it to the Citadel wasn't added till later,

My guess is that the Crucible was originally meant to be the power source of a weapon. That didn't pan out and some cycle learned about the Catalyst and figured they could adapt the Crucible and use it as more or less a hacking module.

Your other question: How do you tell a weapon of mass destruction to only target the Reapers? Especially when every bit of tech in the galaxy is derived from them.

Your guess is that some cycle learned about the catalyst when no other cycle ever did-the last cycle thought it was the citadel and there's some sense in that because it would use the relays that the citadel had access to in order to distribute the energy.  But no one knew about the kid and his programming, therefore it was simply impossible for anyone to create a huge dark energy weapon that would alter his programming.  Shepard was the first and only person to get to where the kid was.

You can't hack a program if you don't know it exists.
 
The crucible is a big battery that someone then alters so that it can change an unknown thing.  Leviathan did not make the crucible plans-so someone just decided to make this weapon that somehow would go boom at reapers.  Then, later on it's altered to work with the citadel to disperse the energy aimed at reapers.  At some point along the way someone made it work to alter the AI's programming.  The only ones that knew about the AI are Shepard, Leviathan, and reaper type people.  Two of those people didn't make the crucible work to alter the kid.

It was never said in the game that nobody had ever became aware of its existence. Just that nobody had ever reached it. Just because the Protheans didn't know the Catalyst was the master behind the pattern doesn't mean that someone before them didn't. The VI didn't even know what Cycle in particular did decide to incorporate the Catalyst.

The protheans, like us, were working with limited data that had endured 50,000 years of wear. Data can be lost, and files can be mistranslated.

[3DandBeyond]

The Grey Nayr wrote...


It was never said in the game that nobody had ever became aware of its existence. Just that nobody had ever reached it. Just because the Protheans didn't know the Catalyst was the master behind the pattern doesn't mean that someone before them didn't. The VI didn't even know what Cycle in particular did decide to incorporate the Catalyst.

The protheans, like us, were working with limited data that had endured 50,000 years of wear. Data can be lost, and files can be mistranslated.

The kid says no one else had ever gotten to where he was.  The Protheans are the only other race to really come close to finishing the crucible and they thought the citadel was the catalyst-the plans were altered to work with the citadel and had no other known function incorporated into them because it was "little more than a power source".  So, it can attach to the citadel and the citadel is used to disperse the energy through its connection to the relays.

Some could have theorized that someone was in control of everything (though it was thought the pattern was created by the reapers and how they went from that to saying it was created by some master behind it, has no explanation).  No one got as far as the Protheans, and then no one got as far as this cycle and the kid doesn't exactly show himself and advise people of his programming language so they can write new code for it.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 22 janvier 2013 - 11:44 .

[3DandBeyond]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Your other question: How do you tell a weapon of mass destruction to only target the Reapers? Especially when every bit of tech in the galaxy is derived from them.

How do you tell the Crucible to target only synthetic AI? Because that's what it does. It's no more contrived to have it target only the Reapers.

You don't?

Catalyst: Technology you rely on will also be affected. But the survivors should have little difficulty repairing the damage.

The pulse affects EVERYTHING technological. Which is why synthetic life dies. They're nothing but technology.

The only thing the Crucible's condition(screwed up, damaged, intact) measures is the how badly it is damaged.

He says all synthetics will be targeted (even you are part synthetic) and then says all tech upon which you rely will be damaged.


That means the choice/citadel/kid/crucible thing will target synthetics specifically.  Synthetic life?  He does not say-he says synthetics will be targeted.  Destroyed?  He does not say-he says it will be targeted.  All tech will be damaged.  Ok, tech is synthetic, but not all synthetics are tech.  You can create synthetic clothes, for instance.  But tech is always synthetic because it does not originate organically or naturally.  So, those translation implants you had installed surgically, your pacemaker, your fake leg, well good luck with that.  Surgically implanted eyes.  All tech that is inside people, well I guess that's damaged.  As is every ship, every thing with tech inside of it. 

[XxBrokenBonezxX]

The simple and cruel truth is; the Crucible makes zero ******* sense. It comes out of nowhere, and the backstory is so impossibly dumb, I can't fathom how someone would see it and say "Ya..that could work."

[WhiteKnyght]

XxBrokenBonezxX wrote...

The simple and cruel truth is; the Crucible makes zero ******* sense. It comes out of nowhere, and the backstory is so impossibly dumb, I can't fathom how someone would see it and say "Ya..that could work."

Makes sense to me. It's a battery that releases tremeandous amounts of energy. Liara, and Hackett's team could tell that pretty early on. Hell, even the Catalyst itself confirms that. All the Destruction, Controlling, Synthesizing is done by the Citadel, Reaper tech.

The crucible is the ultimate defiance against the Reapers. They've tried to eliminate it, but each cycle successfully passed on the blueprint to the next. And each improved on it. When Shepard uses it, it's not just him defeating the Reapers, it's every cycle they've ever destroyed saying "**** you."

As for why they trust it. Desperation's a b!tch. They have nothing else, so why not take a chance on living if they're gonna die anyway?

[WhiteKnyght]

3DandBeyond wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...


It was never said in the game that nobody had ever became aware of its existence. Just that nobody had ever reached it. Just because the Protheans didn't know the Catalyst was the master behind the pattern doesn't mean that someone before them didn't. The VI didn't even know what Cycle in particular did decide to incorporate the Catalyst.

The protheans, like us, were working with limited data that had endured 50,000 years of wear. Data can be lost, and files can be mistranslated.

The kid says no one else had ever gotten to where he was. The Protheans are the only other race to really come close to finishing the crucible and they thought the citadel was the catalyst-the plans were altered to work with the citadel and had no other known function incorporated into them because it was "little more than a power source".  So, it can attach to the citadel and the citadel is used to disperse the energy through its connection to the relays.

Some could have theorized that someone was in control of everything (though it was thought the pattern was created by the reapers and how they went from that to saying it was created by some master behind it, has no explanation).  No one got as far as the Protheans, and then no one got as far as this cycle and the kid doesn't exactly show himself and advise people of his programming language so they can write new code for it.

You just repeated what I already said. But the thing is, reaching it's hangout and knowing that it exists are two entirely different things.

According to Vendetta, the Protheans didn't know which Cycle adapted the Crucible to work with the Catalyst. And it confirmed to EDI that the idea was to use the Reapers' own technology against them.

As for Reaper programming language. Legion was able to determine it using data from the Derelict Reaper and use it to reprogram one of their sophisticated viruses. An Asari Shepard trusted the code fragment to was able to decipher it pretty quickly to interpret their movements. And Cerberus themselves were able to apparently reprogram a Reaper brain and use it as their own supercomputer. So it's probably not that hard to figure out.

[Meltemph]

ITT: We dont get an explanation as to why this makes sense, so let us either create our own headcanon(that cant be disproven) to why it does or doesn't make sense.


This is the biggest problem with the reaper story arc, they kept details hidden that didnt add anything to the plot by hiding these details. Details in general, seemed to be the least important thing, more so in 3 then 2(and 2 suffered from this as well, just not near as much).

We are told "this happens, just accept it". Asimov(and many other scifi writers) consider this an insult to your audiences intelligence, and frankly I agree. Details matter, even more so in a setting/universe not our own.

Modifié par Meltemph, 23 janvier 2013 - 12:50 .

[silverexile17s]

Maxster_ wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Leem_0001 wrote...

It was a poorly thought out plot device.

How can you add to something in a meaningful way if you don't know what it is or does in the firsrt place? We are told previous cycles added something.

Funny how the cycles didn't know about the Reaper threat until it was too late but still managed to get their hands on this blueprint to develop it and expand upon it.

Utter waffle.

The Protheans knew about the Reapers before they arrived. Why do you assume other cycles didn't?

Suddenly, nonsense.
So, they knew about reapers existence, Citadel being relay into dark space and master control unit of the relay network.
And still lost to a surprise decapitation strike.
Riight.
So, protheans are now morons like reapers and leviathans, suddenly?

If you go to the ME wiki, it says right there, "the protheans learned ahead of time about the Reapers, and began developing several countermesures against them, including the Cruicble."
They found out about the Reapers comming. They DIDN'T find out HOW (Citadel Relay) until too late. They got jumped.
You don't need to be so ignroant about it. Especally since anyone who read the lore, or talked to Javik at ALL for that matter, would know the protheans were aware of the Reapers, and were prepairing for them, but their preperations weren't enough.

[Indy_S]

I thought we were the stand-out cycle because we were given a warning. But I guess not, maybe everyone had a warning and we're the stand-out cycle because Shepard is just that badass.

The Crucible started out as a tractor, like I said earlier.

[silverexile17s]

Maxster_ wrote...

survivor_686 wrote...

I'd liken it more to a sophisticated nuke capable of manipulating mass-relays. Over the cycles each species added its own knowledge to the design, refining it. It originally may have started as a giant bomb, but another cycle added a refinement to it (say deliver a more measured radiation dosage), another generation added the coding needed to interface with the Citadel, another generation added a counter-AI module to it and so and so forth.

This is nonsense.
They had no idea that Catalyst even existed, and suddenly adding counter-AI module to a battery. 

So, someone designed a unknown device with unknown function, which should interface with another unknown device with unknown function, unknown interface, unknown location, unconfirmed existence, and even need of it. And suddenly, such a device somehow alters a programming of an AI, no one even knew it existed.

Riight.

There were thousands of cycles. You really think it's that impossible for just ONE to learn about the Catalyst? After all, the protheans found out what the Catalyst was (Vendetta says so on Chronos Station), so why not the race that invented it? And whos to say they didn't find out that it WAS an A.I., but then the information was lost with the cycle?
It may HAVE had a clear purpose once, but that information was lost.
Just like Liara, anyone who saw the designs for something with such a high power outpuy would assume it to be a weapon, especally when it had the tag "last hope against the Reapers." See that, and OF COURSE one would think it's a weapon.
Besides, you have a better, (constructive) idea? Or, for that matter, something that, in any way, makes HIS idea implausible?
No? Then don't act like a dick about an idea you have no way of disproving.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 23 janvier 2013 - 02:13 .

[silverexile17s]

Maxster_ wrote...

Kabooooom wrote...

lol, the Protheans didn't know anything about the Reapers. They got pwned. Replay ME1.

Also, the first builders of the Crucible HAD to know what they were building. It'd be like building a gun piece by piece with no conception or understanding of what it would ultimately become...and then STILL having it turn out to be a gun...and then shooting yourself in the foot with it. That is nonsense.

And because that is nonsense, many people have proposed that the original builders had to know about the existence of the Catalyst, by default. And that kind of narrows down the list of possible candidates to: the Reapers (unlikely), the Leviathans (possibly via a thrall race), or an unknown race in a pre-existing cycle that was far, far more advanced and knowledgeable than even the Protheans (in my opinion, also unlikely).

Exactly.
There are several reasons why Crucible can not be designed at all.
Also, blueprints can not pass all those cycles. It is plain impossible, especially with those blueprints suddenly appearing in posession of every cycle right after reapers attack(otherwise existence of the reapers, Citadel being master control unit of the relay network, and relay into dark space - would be known before reapers invasion).

Except that, according to Javik, the protheans DID know about the Reapers in adavnce. That's how they knew to start building the Crucible. In fact, it's implyed that the entire reason the Prothean's strived to build an Empire, was so they could unite all organic races in preperation for the Reapers.
Unfortunetly, they never learned what trap the Citadel held.

[Indy_S]

silverexile17s wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

survivor_686 wrote...

I'd liken it more to a sophisticated nuke capable of manipulating mass-relays. Over the cycles each species added its own knowledge to the design, refining it. It originally may have started as a giant bomb, but another cycle added a refinement to it (say deliver a more measured radiation dosage), another generation added the coding needed to interface with the Citadel, another generation added a counter-AI module to it and so and so forth.

This is nonsense.
They had no idea that Catalyst even existed, and suddenly adding counter-AI module to a battery. 

So, someone designed a unknown device with unknown function, which should interface with another unknown device with unknown function, unknown interface, unknown location, unconfirmed existence, and even need of it. And suddenly, such a device somehow alters a programming of an AI, no one even knew it existed.

Riight.

There were thousands of cycles. You really think it's that impossible for just ONE to learn about the Catalyst? After all, the protheans found out what the Catalyst was (Vendetta says so on Chronos Station), so why not the race that invented it? And whos to say they didn't find out that it WAS an A.I., but then the information was lost with the cycle?
It may HAVE had a clear purpose once, but that information was lost.
Just like Liara, anyone who saw the designs for something with such a high power outpuy would assume it to be a weapon, especally when it had the tag "last hope against the Reapers." See that, and OF COURSE one would think it's a weapon.
Besides, you have a better, (constructive) idea? Or, for that matter, something that, in any way, makes HIS idea implausible?
No? Then don't act like a dick about an idea you have no way of disproving.

When would it have been decided that the Crucible even needs a Catalyst? Who would rely upon an incomplete blueprint for the weapon of 'saving the day'? As far as tractors go, this is a doozy, but it's still a random shot in the dark.

[silverexile17s]

Leem_0001 wrote...

Kabooooom wrote...

No - the Protheans were taken completely by surprise. What they did have, which other cycles didn't, was a communication network that allowed instantaneous communication which did not utilize the FTL comm buoys. This allowed them to remain not completely in the dark while the extinction was going on - and it allowed Ilos to broadcast a signal to the beacon network after the hibernating scientists awoke.

While the extinction was happening, which took 200 years, they began building the Crucible and presumably studying Indoctrination. It was during this time that Vendetta was built.

2. They understood that the Repaer's used the Citadel as a trap, and succesfully sabotaged it via the Keepers.

Only years after the invasion began, and only a select team of scientists figured it out and carried it out.

3. Vendetta possibly figured out the existence of the Catatlyst.

Vendetta thought the Catalyst was the Citadel - which is what the Protheans thought. They had no idea what it really was.

4. The Cruicible seems to have been finished by the Protheans, they just never got to use it becasue of the splinter control faction.

Irrelevant. They didn't design it, but inherited the plans from the Inusannon.

5. Just becasue they lost doesn't mean they didn't know anything. A Shepherd can pick refuse and watch the universe burn with all that knowledge of the Reapers floating around in their skull.

No, Vigil's description of them being completely blindsided by the ferocity of the attack and immediately losing the Citadel proves that well enough.

Pretty much this. In ME1 it is clearly stated that the Protheans did not know about the Reapers until after the invasion through the citadel relay. Any knowladge they did get was learned during the period of their extermination.

The whole cruicible thing is a joke that has been outlined in many posts in the thread. It. Does. Not. Make. Sense.

Actually, Javik says that the Protheans were indeed aware of the Reapers, at least a short time before they came. They worked on preperations, (like putting the data archives on Mars and Thessia, in case they failed).

[silverexile17s]

Indy_S wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

survivor_686 wrote...

I'd liken it more to a sophisticated nuke capable of manipulating mass-relays. Over the cycles each species added its own knowledge to the design, refining it. It originally may have started as a giant bomb, but another cycle added a refinement to it (say deliver a more measured radiation dosage), another generation added the coding needed to interface with the Citadel, another generation added a counter-AI module to it and so and so forth.

This is nonsense.
They had no idea that Catalyst even existed, and suddenly adding counter-AI module to a battery. 

So, someone designed a unknown device with unknown function, which should interface with another unknown device with unknown function, unknown interface, unknown location, unconfirmed existence, and even need of it. And suddenly, such a device somehow alters a programming of an AI, no one even knew it existed.

Riight.

There were thousands of cycles. You really think it's that impossible for just ONE to learn about the Catalyst? After all, the protheans found out what the Catalyst was (Vendetta says so on Chronos Station), so why not the race that invented it? And whos to say they didn't find out that it WAS an A.I., but then the information was lost with the cycle?
It may HAVE had a clear purpose once, but that information was lost.
Just like Liara, anyone who saw the designs for something with such a high power outpuy would assume it to be a weapon, especally when it had the tag "last hope against the Reapers." See that, and OF COURSE one would think it's a weapon.
Besides, you have a better, (constructive) idea? Or, for that matter, something that, in any way, makes HIS idea implausible?
No? Then don't act like a dick about an idea you have no way of disproving.

When would it have been decided that the Crucible even needs a Catalyst? Who would rely upon an incomplete blueprint for the weapon of 'saving the day'? As far as tractors go, this is a doozy, but it's still a random shot in the dark.

The Catalyst actually touches on this. The weapon runs on Dark Energy, but wasn't powerful enough in it's basic form. Soon enough, someone found out the Citadel was the heart of the network for the  Dark Energy-minipulating Mass Relays. So, someone adapted it later to use the Citadel to focus that Dark Energy, to provide the power needed to affect the Reapers. It's possible they also learned about the Catalyst itself. It's unknown if this was the same cycle that made this alteration to the original blueprint, or if it was a later cycle.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 23 janvier 2013 - 02:23 .

[silverexile17s]

Indy_S wrote...

I thought we were the stand-out cycle because we were given a warning. But I guess not, maybe everyone had a warning and we're the stand-out cycle because Shepard is just that badass.

The Crucible started out as a tractor, like I said earlier.

Actually, we never find out, but it's appearent that at least some cycles (like Shepards and the Protheans) had an advance warrning about the Reapers.

[silverexile17s]

Troxa wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Kabooooom wrote...

lol, the Protheans didn't know anything about the Reapers. They got pwned. Replay ME1.

Or you could pay attention to Mass Effect 3, where they flat out state the Protheans knew beforehand. If the wiki isn't good enough for you - masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Prothean - then I can be more specific.

Also, the first builders of the Crucible HAD to know what they were building. It'd be like building a gun piece by piece with no conception or understanding of what it would ultimately become...and then STILL having it turn out to be a gun...and then shooting yourself in the foot with it. That is nonsense.

And because that is nonsense, many people have proposed that the original builders had to know about the existence of the Catalyst, by default. And that kind of narrows down the list of possible candidates to: the Reapers (unlikely), the Leviathans (possibly via a thrall race), or an unknown race in a pre-existing cycle that was far, far more advanced and knowledgeable than even the Protheans (in my opinion, also unlikely).

I incline towards the Leviathan theory, however it ultimately comes down to whether or not the Crucible houses the programming for the different ways to utilize the relay network. If it is in fact merely an energy device, a giant battery as the Catalyst claims, then it would be easy for people to build it without knowing the ways it could ultimately be used. Now, creating the plans from scratch without knowing what the Catalyst is....that's a different matter, and births theories such as "the Leviathans created/modified the plans."

Vigil said they were too late with the warning about the reapers & he knew about the collectors during the war so he should have known about the crucible plans. The protheans were also cut of from the relays so they should not even been able to build the crucible & they didn't have there own intersteller travel if they did the reapers would not have been able to kill them off.

main plot points outside the main story should never happen, ever bought a book that has major plot points outside of it that you have to buy separately.

www.youtube.com/watch

Dr_Extrem wrote...

For an immidiate change, you would have to alter the existing cell. the
cell is made off proteins and sugars. to alter the cell, you would have
to rearrange every atom in every molecule of every cell. subatomic
parts, the charge and state would have to be altered as well. within a
4-dimensional system.

18g of water, contain roughly 6.022 x 10²³
oxygen atoms and 2 x 6.022 x 10²³ atoms of hydrogen. all of them would
need to be treated equally and rearranged without any mistake.

good luck with that .. the friction caused by the molecular movement alone would vapourize the cell.

The synthesis ending jumps the shark. there is no scientific principle in the
meu, that supports this method. altering the mass of somehing is one
thing - molecular and cellular rearrangement are alien to this universe.

Actually, Vigil says that he was programed to monitor the stasis pods on Ilos. That would imply he was created/programed after Ilos went dark, and was cut off from the rest of the Prothean Empire. Therefore, since the scientists were isolated themselves, and there was no longer any information network, Vigil knowing nothing about  the Collcetors, or the Crucilbe, is more plausible then most realize.

[Indy_S]

I really thought that was what made this cycle special, though. Something slipped through and we were able to act upon it. But apparently not. So the only difference I can see is that the current cycle has enough 'can-do' spirit to pull off a victory. We have enough pluck when everybody else had insufficient pluck.