352 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Well, ME3 completely destroyed overarching series plot, so it doesn't even matters anymore.

It has many stupid holes, but I thought the overarching series plot was confronting the Reapers.

Indeed. Your talking out your ****, Maxster_. ME2 was completely divorced from the plot. If anything, the problems started there. If anything, ME3 was more true to the source material then ME2. The Crucible was part of Drew's original Dark Enegry plot, so it was part of the overreaching plot from as far back at mid-ME2 development, and part of the concept since ME1.
It may not be executed properly, but it in no way destroyes the overreaching plot, when it's stayed more true to it then ME2 did.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 25 janvier 2013 - 03:56 .

[Indy_S]

Silver, you've written more in regards to this stupid machine than the authors. Congratulations. But it still isn't official and it still feels like the tractor is a ridiculous plot device rather than an in-built part of the universe.

[silverexile17s]

Indy_S wrote...

Silver, you've written more in regards to this stupid machine than the authors. Congratulations. But it still isn't official and it still feels like the tractor is a ridiculous plot device rather than an in-built part of the universe.

But it existed as part of the plot long before. It was part of Drew's original concept regarding Dark Energy, green-lighted in ME2, and part of the storyline concept since ME1.
I agree it's not executed properly. But, in actuallity, there is nothing in the lore that void's it's existance. Anything that comes close can be explained away.
There is no definate explination offered right now. But they exist, and the Crucible is not voided by the lore.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 25 janvier 2013 - 05:47 .

[silverexile17s]

Indy_S wrote...

Shepard's only skill is in shooting dudes. Did no other cycle have that ability?

Shepard united the entire galaxy. That takes more then just "shooting people." Javik was good at that, and it did nothing.

[silverexile17s]

Meltemph wrote...

That would imply he was created/programed after Ilos went dark, and was cut off from the rest of the Prothean Empire. Therefore, since the scientists were isolated themselves, and there was no longer any information network, Vigil knowing nothing about the Collcetors, or the Crucilbe, is more plausible then most realize.

This is you creating a non-provable/irrefutable argument to fit a personal bias.

Vigil himself says he was programed spicifically to monitor the stasis pods, which weren't activated till after Ilos went dark.
Play ME1 and see yourself.

[ZeCollectorDestroya]

Blueprints left over by the Leviathans that tried to stop the Reapers before they died?

[AlexPorto111]

IMO, the surviving Leviathans created the blueprint of the weapon and hidden all over the galaxy for others civilizations to find it and built it.

[Maxster_]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Well, ME3 completely destroyed overarching series plot, so it doesn't even matters anymore.

It has many stupid holes, but I thought the overarching series plot was confronting the Reapers.

Very simple.
Reapers sat in dark space for a thousands of years of Sovereign's machinations for no reason, when they could just fly into a galaxy in a half a year, losing completely nothing in the process.

This means, that events of ME1 happened not because of prothean sabotage, but because reapers decided to sat in dark space for no reason.
This means all events in ME1-2-3(as all events in Shepard cycle, like rachni wars, and rachni defeat) happened because reapers allowed them to happen. They could end that "struggle" any time they wanted.
Sovereign story became void, Saren's story became void.

And all that before Catalyst's nonsense. With him, entire ME story is even less sensical, he destroys everything that is left of overarching series plot, after reapers arrival.

[Maxster_]

AlexPorto111 wrote...

IMO, the surviving Leviathans created the blueprint of the weapon and hidden all over the galaxy for others civilizations to find it and built it.

Sure.
And there we got 20000 coincidences of cycles finding those blueprints right after reapers invasion.

[Seboist]

The derpcible is the gift that keeps on giving with the amount of idiocy it creates.

[Auld Wulf]

Maxster_ wrote...

And there we got 20000 coincidences of cycles finding those blueprints right after reapers invasion.

Funnily enough, my explanation of the crucible being leaked by the catalyst makes even more sense, now. Think about it, if the catalyst were fighting the reapers, wanting to change the conclusion, then it would actually do things like that.

It's funny, the more that comes up about this, the more logical my explanation becomes. And the more three-dimensional my explanation becomes, too, which is a good thing. The problem is, really, that people assume that the catalyst and the reapers are a faceless evil, so they don't even consider (as I have) the notion of an internal struggle.

Edit: If you think about it, it makes Mars make sense. The catalyst has leaked the crucible again, and the reapers don't want that. The reapers send their Cerberus faction to try and intercept it before it can fall into the hands of those the catalyst would want it in. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense.

Modifié par Auld Wulf, 25 janvier 2013 - 03:32 .

[Lazengan]

essarr71 wrote...

If i hook up my microwave to my computer it can turn my dog into a cyborg. Customer support told me I wouldnt understand the specifics of it but it was bound to happen eventually and the dog was ready for it.

[JBPBRC]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

And there we got 20000 coincidences of cycles finding those blueprints right after reapers invasion.

Funnily enough, my explanation of the crucible being leaked by the catalyst makes even more sense, now. Think about it, if the catalyst were fighting the reapers, wanting to change the conclusion, then it would actually do things like that.

It's funny, the more that comes up about this, the more logical my explanation becomes. And the more three-dimensional my explanation becomes, too, which is a good thing. The problem is, really, that people assume that the catalyst and the reapers are a faceless evil, so they don't even consider (as I have) the notion of an internal struggle.

Edit: If you think about it, it makes Mars make sense. The catalyst has leaked the crucible again, and the reapers don't want that. The reapers send their Cerberus faction to try and intercept it before it can fall into the hands of those the catalyst would want it in. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense.

Except he isn't fighting the Reapers. He embodies every Reaper, Harbinger included. They all work for him, and he himself derides the Crucible as primitive, but up to the task.

[Maxster_]

Seboist wrote...

The derpcible is the gift that keeps on giving with the amount of idiocy it creates.

Most infuriating, is that thing, one of major things that made ME3 pure garbage(others being reapers arrival, "take back earth", and derperus empire), requires characters to be dumbed down. Anyone involved with Crucible plot, immediately went full retard, like Hackett or Anderson or Shepard.

Ugh

[Maxster_]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

And there we got 20000 coincidences of cycles finding those blueprints right after reapers invasion.

Funnily enough, my explanation of the crucible being leaked by the catalyst makes even more sense, now. Think about it, if the catalyst were fighting the reapers, wanting to change the conclusion, then it would actually do things like that.

It's funny, the more that comes up about this, the more logical my explanation becomes. And the more three-dimensional my explanation becomes, too, which is a good thing. The problem is, really, that people assume that the catalyst and the reapers are a faceless evil, so they don't even consider (as I have) the notion of an internal struggle.

Edit: If you think about it, it makes Mars make sense. The catalyst has leaked the crucible again, and the reapers don't want that. The reapers send their Cerberus faction to try and intercept it before it can fall into the hands of those the catalyst would want it in. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense.

That is not explanation, that is plain example of contradicting headcanon.
There is no infight between reapers and Catalyst, they are just his tools. As it shown in his dialogue and in control epilogue.
Unless you are saying, that Catalyst deliberately restricted himself for no reason.

[KingZayd]

Auld Wulf wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

And there we got 20000 coincidences of cycles finding those blueprints right after reapers invasion.

Funnily enough, my explanation of the crucible being leaked by the catalyst makes even more sense, now. Think about it, if the catalyst were fighting the reapers, wanting to change the conclusion, then it would actually do things like that.

It's funny, the more that comes up about this, the more logical my explanation becomes. And the more three-dimensional my explanation becomes, too, which is a good thing. The problem is, really, that people assume that the catalyst and the reapers are a faceless evil, so they don't even consider (as I have) the notion of an internal struggle.

Edit: If you think about it, it makes Mars make sense. The catalyst has leaked the crucible again, and the reapers don't want that. The reapers send their Cerberus faction to try and intercept it before it can fall into the hands of those the catalyst would want it in. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense.

The Reapers oppose him, and yet he claims to control them? It doesn't make sense.

Unless he's lying, and he's the synthetic that the Reapers are trying to protect the galaxy from. By eliminating any species advanced enough to upgrade him. But then how would he leak the plans?

Modifié par KingZayd, 25 janvier 2013 - 04:11 .

[Lazengan]

KingZayd wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

And there we got 20000 coincidences of cycles finding those blueprints right after reapers invasion.

Funnily enough, my explanation of the crucible being leaked by the catalyst makes even more sense, now. Think about it, if the catalyst were fighting the reapers, wanting to change the conclusion, then it would actually do things like that.

It's funny, the more that comes up about this, the more logical my explanation becomes. And the more three-dimensional my explanation becomes, too, which is a good thing. The problem is, really, that people assume that the catalyst and the reapers are a faceless evil, so they don't even consider (as I have) the notion of an internal struggle.

Edit: If you think about it, it makes Mars make sense. The catalyst has leaked the crucible again, and the reapers don't want that. The reapers send their Cerberus faction to try and intercept it before it can fall into the hands of those the catalyst would want it in. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense.

The Reapers oppose him, and yet he claims to control them? It doesn't make sense.

Unless he's lying, and he's the synthetic that the Reapers are trying to protect the galaxy from. By eliminating any species advanced enough to upgrade him. But then how would he leak the plans?

stahp

guys just Stahp

Bioware has never been those kind of writers, they were never that deep and never will be. Truth is that crucible was an asspull, everything is meant to be taken at face value, and IT theory is a pathetic fanfic perpetuated by delusional fanboys

Modifié par Lazengan, 25 janvier 2013 - 04:15 .

[tolkienelf]

Regarding the Catalyst my main question is why would any species connect the Crucible to the Citadel?  Any species working on the crucible must have done so after the Reapers started their attack (how else would they know about the Reapers) which means the Citadel was already under Reaper control and no one in there sane mind would have made such a suggestion.  It is not until this cycle that the citadel is free to be used in this manner (at least until captured) thanks to the Protheans.
If its design truly started as a weapon against the Reapers then perhaps the Catalyst made changes to it and thus made it in to a trap or maybe it was designed by the Catalyst as a distraction so that no species devoted efforts into a true weapon. Either way I am convinced that the Catalyst had its “hand” in it at some point. 
That or the writers were really sloppy and we know that is not possible.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Maxster_ wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Well, ME3 completely destroyed overarching series plot, so it doesn't even matters anymore.

It has many stupid holes, but I thought the overarching series plot was confronting the Reapers.

Very simple.
Reapers sat in dark space for a thousands of years of Sovereign's machinations for no reason, when they could just fly into a galaxy in a half a year, losing completely nothing in the process.

This means, that events of ME1 happened not because of prothean sabotage, but because reapers decided to sat in dark space for no reason.
This means all events in ME1-2-3(as all events in Shepard cycle, like rachni wars, and rachni defeat) happened because reapers allowed them to happen. They could end that "struggle" any time they wanted.
Sovereign story became void, Saren's story became void.

Yes, this is the worst plot hole of them all. After I played "The Arrival" in ME2 and saw that the Reapers can just, like, fly in despite all the talk about The Citadel being their portal into our galaxy I almost decided not to play ME3. I am happy I did it after all, though, as it is still a wonderful game.

(Note: I disagree on the specifics. Reapers didn't sit there for
thousands of years waiting for Sovereign. They were simply waiting for
the races to be sufficiently advanced for harvest. Them allowing it to happen doesn't invalidate the storyline, it just shows how screwed we were and we didn't even know it. And the Citadel might have simply been the most efficient option. Still a plothole though.)

Maxster_ wrote...
And all that before Catalyst's nonsense. With him, entire ME story is even less sensical, he destroys everything that is left of overarching series plot, after reapers arrival.

The overarching series plot is the conflict with the Reapers. While I hate the aforementioned plot hole, it is, in the end, a detail. They want to harvest us as they did before - how they finally arrive is not crucial to the conflict.

And I don't know how Catalyst destroys it either. He is the Reapers. He explains why he does it. He is not defeated.  Influenced by the Crucible, as predicted by the original designers, he offers options. You probably just don't like them.

[silverexile17s]

Maxster_ wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The derpcible is the gift that keeps on giving with the amount of idiocy it creates.

Most infuriating, is that thing, one of major things that made ME3 pure garbage(others being reapers arrival, "take back earth", and derperus empire), requires characters to be dumbed down. Anyone involved with Crucible plot, immediately went full retard, like Hackett or Anderson or Shepard.

Ugh

You are being butthurt over it. As said before, while not executed at the same level as the others, ME3 is not "pure garbage." Even typacally critical independant reviewers like "Angry Joe" say that it's an 8/10, and that flaws and all, "it's a great game. Don't ever, get that, wrong."
And Hackett and Anderson are not retarded in the game.
Hackett has to use the Crucible because there is literally NOTHING else to throw against the Reapers that could stop them. He likens it to using the Hiroshima Bomb in WWII, saying that the people that dropped even thought it could ignite Earth's atmosphere, but they did it anyway, because they had no optioin.
And for Anderson, if you're actually talking about the Earth assult (which debating about is how I ran into you), I told you that they had to use shuttles, because anything larger like a fleet of Frigates would have instantly been classed as a threat, and shot down befoe even getting to the Surface. Shuttles were too small to be considered a major threat. And their stealth drives made sure that they didn't get detected till well after breaking atmo.
They couldn't do clever manuvering on the ground because:
(a) the Reapers had full control of the area, so no surprise flanking tactics would work. The turians tried it on their home turf and got nothing out of it, so what makes you think it would work at Reaper Ground Zero? And Tarquin Victus tried clever manuvers on Tuchanka, which is close to what Earth is now. Close to the same scenario (guide your people through to the goal), and HE didn't come out any better. So whatever clever tactics you THINK you had - dead wrong in regards to the Reapers.
( the Reapers have the conduit completely surrounded, 360 degrees. So it would have been the same no matter WHAT direction they went in.
© The conduit gives off disrupts even EDI's targeting, so long range bombartment is out. Therefore, no easy path to the Conduit.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 25 janvier 2013 - 08:33 .

[Rip504]

Really?

[Maxster_]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Well, ME3 completely destroyed overarching series plot, so it doesn't even matters anymore.

It has many stupid holes, but I thought the overarching series plot was confronting the Reapers.

Very simple.
Reapers sat in dark space for a thousands of years of Sovereign's machinations for no reason, when they could just fly into a galaxy in a half a year, losing completely nothing in the process.

This means, that events of ME1 happened not because of prothean sabotage, but because reapers decided to sat in dark space for no reason.
This means all events in ME1-2-3(as all events in Shepard cycle, like rachni wars, and rachni defeat) happened because reapers allowed them to happen. They could end that "struggle" any time they wanted.
Sovereign story became void, Saren's story became void.

Yes, this is the worst plot hole of them all. After I played "The Arrival" in ME2 and saw that the Reapers can just, like, fly in despite all the talk about The Citadel being their portal into our galaxy I almost decided not to play ME3. I am happy I did it after all, though, as it is still a wonderful game.

(Note: I disagree on the specifics. Reapers didn't sit there for
thousands of years waiting for Sovereign. They were simply waiting for
the races to be sufficiently advanced for harvest. Them allowing it to happen doesn't invalidate the storyline, it just shows how screwed we were and we didn't even know it. And the Citadel might have simply been the most efficient option. Still a plothole though.)

They waited.
Catalyst, being as you say, embodiment of the reapers - knew everything, about prothean sabotage, and Sovereign doings.
Even without him,  - Sovereign already tried to start harvest thousands of years ago. Have you ever played ME1?
And this means, that races were already sufficiently advanced for harvest.
Therefore, reapers deliberately allowed ME1 events to happen.
This means Sovereign and Harbringer lied, and Sovereign grew bold, desperate and attacked Citadel directly for no other reason than just because. There is no point for him risking his cover. Not a single one. He just attacked because plot demanded to.

And with Catalyst, entire point of ME1 is void - he knew about prothean sabotage from the start.

If you think this doesn't invalidate ME1's storyline - i can't help you. You have no idea what good, coherent and consistent writing is.

Maxster_ wrote...
And all that before Catalyst's nonsense. With him, entire ME story is even less sensical, he destroys everything that is left of overarching series plot, after reapers arrival.

The overarching series plot is the conflict with the Reapers. While I hate the aforementioned plot hole, it is, in the end, a detail. They want to harvest us as they did before - how they finally arrive is not crucial to the conflict.

And I don't know how Catalyst destroys it either. He is the Reapers. He explains why he does it. He is not defeated.  Influenced by the Crucible, as predicted by the original designers, he offers options. You probably just don't like them.

Entire point of ME1, any motivations for Sovereign(and thus Saren) - is a complete void.
They acted just because reasons.
If that is what you call good storytelling - you are beyond saving.

Well, guessing that you swallowed crap like Crucible - it shows.
Yeah, someone decided to design unknown device with unknown function which should interface with another unknown device, with unknown function, unknown interface, unknown location, unconfirmed existence and even need of it.
And then this magical device, as predicted by it's original designers, influenced something that those designers have no idea it even existed.
Riiight

Space Magic ftw.

[silverexile17s]

Maxster_ wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

And there we got 20000 coincidences of cycles finding those blueprints right after reapers invasion.

Funnily enough, my explanation of the crucible being leaked by the catalyst makes even more sense, now. Think about it, if the catalyst were fighting the reapers, wanting to change the conclusion, then it would actually do things like that.

It's funny, the more that comes up about this, the more logical my explanation becomes. And the more three-dimensional my explanation becomes, too, which is a good thing. The problem is, really, that people assume that the catalyst and the reapers are a faceless evil, so they don't even consider (as I have) the notion of an internal struggle.

Edit: If you think about it, it makes Mars make sense. The catalyst has leaked the crucible again, and the reapers don't want that. The reapers send their Cerberus faction to try and intercept it before it can fall into the hands of those the catalyst would want it in. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense.

That is not explanation, that is plain example of contradicting headcanon.
There is no infight between reapers and Catalyst, they are just his tools. As it shown in his dialogue and in control epilogue.
Unless you are saying, that Catalyst deliberately restricted himself for no reason.

Just like saying "headcannon" without having any proof makes it so?
I think you should read "The Boy who cried Wolf."
And the Catalyst did just that restriction when talking to Shepard, as he can shut off the Crucible whenever, as shown in the Refuse ending. He want's to see Shepard's choice, as Shepard bested his calculations.
So no, the Catalyst minipulating the development of the Crucible is nowhere near a headcannon.

[silverexile17s]

Lazengan wrote...

KingZayd wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

And there we got 20000 coincidences of cycles finding those blueprints right after reapers invasion.

Funnily enough, my explanation of the crucible being leaked by the catalyst makes even more sense, now. Think about it, if the catalyst were fighting the reapers, wanting to change the conclusion, then it would actually do things like that.

It's funny, the more that comes up about this, the more logical my explanation becomes. And the more three-dimensional my explanation becomes, too, which is a good thing. The problem is, really, that people assume that the catalyst and the reapers are a faceless evil, so they don't even consider (as I have) the notion of an internal struggle.

Edit: If you think about it, it makes Mars make sense. The catalyst has leaked the crucible again, and the reapers don't want that. The reapers send their Cerberus faction to try and intercept it before it can fall into the hands of those the catalyst would want it in. The more I think about it, the more it makes sense.

The Reapers oppose him, and yet he claims to control them? It doesn't make sense.

Unless he's lying, and he's the synthetic that the Reapers are trying to protect the galaxy from. By eliminating any species advanced enough to upgrade him. But then how would he leak the plans?

stahp

guys just Stahp

Bioware has never been those kind of writers, they were never that deep and never will be. Truth is that crucible was an asspull, everything is meant to be taken at face value, and IT theory is a pathetic fanfic perpetuated by delusional fanboys

Technically, it's NOT an asspull. The Crucible was created by Drew as early as ME1, and made a full plot-point by mid-ME2. So the concept has been in existance since the beginning. It wasn't pulled off right (indroduced too late in the trilogy),  but it's not an asspull, as ity was part of the original concept.

[silverexile17s]

tolkienelf wrote...

Regarding the Catalyst my main question is why would any species connect the Crucible to the Citadel?  Any species working on the crucible must have done so after the Reapers started their attack (how else would they know about the Reapers) which means the Citadel was already under Reaper control and no one in there sane mind would have made such a suggestion.  It is not until this cycle that the citadel is free to be used in this manner (at least until captured) thanks to the Protheans.
If its design truly started as a weapon against the Reapers then perhaps the Catalyst made changes to it and thus made it in to a trap or maybe it was designed by the Catalyst as a distraction so that no species devoted efforts into a true weapon. Either way I am convinced that the Catalyst had its “hand” in it at some point. 
That or the writers were really sloppy and we know that is not possible.

That, or they wanted people to speculate on it like wild.
It's possible the change to the Cruicble was ment to weaponize the Dark Energy produced by mass relays into a attack the Reapers had no concivable defense against. And the biggest Mass Relay in the galaxy, and therefore, the biggest Dark Energy engine in the galaxy? The Citadel.
So it may be that the Crucible was ment to weaponize the Citadel's Dark Energy emmisions, and the Catalyst "tweaks" the wavelengths, output, and contained format of the Energy Wave (hence the different color beams) to create the options we are presented.
A specilized wavelength of Dark Energy that destroyes A.I. circutry could explain Destroy. Or that the Dark Energy was made to be conduttive, and carry electrical signals that re-wrote the Reapers could possibly explain Control. But how it uses Dark Energy to do Synthesis is a mystery. In my poinion, Synthesis was a mistake.