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[chasemme]

Even if the Crucible wasn't thought up before the beginning of ME3 development, I don't see the issue...? We're mad at some mysterious object that was introduced in the current game as the basis for the main plot? Like, say, the Conduit or the Omega-4 Relay?

I understand the problems with the Catalyst (and ultimately the Crucible's USE), specifically, but the Crucible itself served a reasonable purpose as a plot device, in my opinion. Gave a reason to unite the galaxy to face the reapers, without needing to put in something slightly ridiculous like conventional victory. I just don't see an issue.

[silverexile17s]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Well, ME3 completely destroyed overarching series plot, so it doesn't even matters anymore.

It has many stupid holes, but I thought the overarching series plot was confronting the Reapers.

Very simple.
Reapers sat in dark space for a thousands of years of Sovereign's machinations for no reason, when they could just fly into a galaxy in a half a year, losing completely nothing in the process.

This means, that events of ME1 happened not because of prothean sabotage, but because reapers decided to sat in dark space for no reason.
This means all events in ME1-2-3(as all events in Shepard cycle, like rachni wars, and rachni defeat) happened because reapers allowed them to happen. They could end that "struggle" any time they wanted.
Sovereign story became void, Saren's story became void.

Yes, this is the worst plot hole of them all. After I played "The Arrival" in ME2 and saw that the Reapers can just, like, fly in despite all the talk about The Citadel being their portal into our galaxy I almost decided not to play ME3. I am happy I did it after all, though, as it is still a wonderful game.

(Note: I disagree on the specifics. Reapers didn't sit there for
thousands of years waiting for Sovereign. They were simply waiting for
the races to be sufficiently advanced for harvest. Them allowing it to happen doesn't invalidate the storyline, it just shows how screwed we were and we didn't even know it. And the Citadel might have simply been the most efficient option. Still a plothole though.)

Maxster_ wrote...
And all that before Catalyst's nonsense. With him, entire ME story is even less sensical, he destroys everything that is left of overarching series plot, after reapers arrival.

The overarching series plot is the conflict with the Reapers. While I hate the aforementioned plot hole, it is, in the end, a detail. They want to harvest us as they did before - how they finally arrive is not crucial to the conflict.

And I don't know how Catalyst destroys it either. He is the Reapers. He explains why he does it. He is not defeated.  Influenced by the Crucible, as predicted by the original designers, he offers options. You probably just don't like them.

Kenson spicifically says that without the Alpha Relay, the Reapers will need months, perhaps  even another full year to get to the galaxy. And it also took two full years for the Reapers to get to that point. So that was time to prep.
It was a matter of convience, efficancy, and stratagy to use the Citadel Realy. It was a pain for them to come all the way "on foot." So no, it doesn't void Sovergien's or Saren's plot.
And like Mouton_Alpha says, it's just a detail, and not important in the grand scheme of things. At this point, you are just nitpicking, Maxster_.

[silverexile17s]

chasemme wrote...

Even if the Crucible wasn't thought up before the beginning of ME3 development, I don't see the issue...? We're mad at some mysterious object that was introduced in the current game as the basis for the main plot? Like, say, the Conduit or the Omega-4 Relay?

I understand the problems with the Catalyst (and ultimately the Crucible's USE), specifically, but the Crucible itself served a reasonable purpose as a plot device, in my opinion. Gave a reason to unite the galaxy to face the reapers, without needing to put in something slightly ridiculous like conventional victory. I just don't see an issue.

The issue most have is that it is not executed properly as a plot point. With something as groundbreaking as the key to killing the Reapers, most think it should have been introduced at the end of ME2, so that it didn't fell like an asspull in ME3 when it was anything but.
They don't like that you find the Crucible on Mars, which you happen to be right by, just as the Reapers launch their attack. It's not lore-breaking, but it's a suspension of disbelief not seen since the Lazarus Project of ME2.
It's not that it's a bad plot-point. It's that it feels like it was thrown into the plot, and that something so important should have been introduced in late ME2, so that it didn't feel as akward.
The only foreshadowing we had was in Lair of the Shaodw Broker, where Liara said the old Shadow Broker was still looking at Prothean data, suspecting that the protheans may have left something else besides the Conduit and the Warnings.

[silverexile17s]

Maxster_ wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Well, ME3 completely destroyed overarching series plot, so it doesn't even matters anymore.

It has many stupid holes, but I thought the overarching series plot was confronting the Reapers.

Very simple.
Reapers sat in dark space for a thousands of years of Sovereign's machinations for no reason, when they could just fly into a galaxy in a half a year, losing completely nothing in the process.

This means, that events of ME1 happened not because of prothean sabotage, but because reapers decided to sat in dark space for no reason.
This means all events in ME1-2-3(as all events in Shepard cycle, like rachni wars, and rachni defeat) happened because reapers allowed them to happen. They could end that "struggle" any time they wanted.
Sovereign story became void, Saren's story became void.

Yes, this is the worst plot hole of them all. After I played "The Arrival" in ME2 and saw that the Reapers can just, like, fly in despite all the talk about The Citadel being their portal into our galaxy I almost decided not to play ME3. I am happy I did it after all, though, as it is still a wonderful game.

(Note: I disagree on the specifics. Reapers didn't sit there for
thousands of years waiting for Sovereign. They were simply waiting for
the races to be sufficiently advanced for harvest. Them allowing it to happen doesn't invalidate the storyline, it just shows how screwed we were and we didn't even know it. And the Citadel might have simply been the most efficient option. Still a plothole though.)

They waited.
Catalyst, being as you say, embodiment of the reapers - knew everything, about prothean sabotage, and Sovereign doings.
Even without him,  - Sovereign already tried to start harvest thousands of years ago. Have you ever played ME1?
And this means, that races were already sufficiently advanced for harvest.
Therefore, reapers deliberately allowed ME1 events to happen.
This means Sovereign and Harbringer lied, and Sovereign grew bold, desperate and attacked Citadel directly for no other reason than just because. There is no point for him risking his cover. Not a single one. He just attacked because plot demanded to.

And with Catalyst, entire point of ME1 is void - he knew about prothean sabotage from the start.

If you think this doesn't invalidate ME1's storyline - i can't help you. You have no idea what good, coherent and consistent writing is.

Maxster_ wrote...
And all that before Catalyst's nonsense. With him, entire ME story is even less sensical, he destroys everything that is left of overarching series plot, after reapers arrival.

The overarching series plot is the conflict with the Reapers. While I hate the aforementioned plot hole, it is, in the end, a detail. They want to harvest us as they did before - how they finally arrive is not crucial to the conflict.

And I don't know how Catalyst destroys it either. He is the Reapers. He explains why he does it. He is not defeated.  Influenced by the Crucible, as predicted by the original designers, he offers options. You probably just don't like them.

Entire point of ME1, any motivations for Sovereign(and thus Saren) - is a complete void.
They acted just because reasons.
If that is what you call good storytelling - you are beyond saving.

Well, guessing that you swallowed crap like Crucible - it shows.
Yeah, someone decided to design unknown device with unknown function which should interface with another unknown device, with unknown function, unknown interface, unknown location, unconfirmed existence and even need of it.
And then this magical device, as predicted by it's original designers, influenced something that those designers have no idea it even existed.
Riiight

Space Magic ftw.

Again, the prothean sabatoge likely rendered him inactive. When the scientists borded the station via the Conduit, they likely found him, and found a way to put him into stasis. That may be what their "sabotage" was: putting the Catalyst into stasis.
Sovergien's attack was likely to wake the Catalyst. Vigil's data file made sure it stayed under, and locked Sovergien out, keeping it from getting control and reviving the Catalyst. Which it fails at. It only is reveved when the Reapers regain control at the end of ME3.
So once again, you are wrong. It's existance doesn't void ME1.

And once again, you cannot seem to post without being both insulting and ignroant to the other. People would be willing to debate with you more often if you were more courtious to them. No one likes a troll, no matter what side they are on.
And we went over this before. The people who built the Crucible MUST have known what they were building and why, or else it wouldn't have been invented at ALL. So that "unknown" BS is at this point an asspull, as you refuse to acknolodge it was disproven long ago.
Also, the function to link with the Citadel was added later by another species, and was likely done to weponize the Dark Energy the Citadel minipulated. The changes in how it's dispersed (the ending options) is likely added by the Catalyst itself. Destroy is likely the original function, while Control and Synthesis are something the Catalyst itself added. So NO, they DIDN'T ever need to know about the Catalyst. And  if they did know about it, is it that hard to believe that one cycle out of thouands could find out?
Only one cycle could have found out, and then the information on what the Catalyst ended up lost. In time, the Catalyst and Citadel were regarded as the same, with none ever re-discovering that the Catalyst was an A.I. They likely all just saw the Catalyst as being the Citadel, which minipulates Dark Energy, which the Crucible can weaponize and focus.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 26 janvier 2013 - 03:08 .

[blah64]

TheCrazyHobo wrote...

Kabooooom wrote...

lol, the Protheans didn't know anything about the Reapers. They got pwned. Replay ME1. 

Ummm...they knew about the Reapers sir...Here we go:

1. They understood indoctrination, and their VIs could sense it.
2. They understood that the Repaer's used the Citadel as a trap, and succesfully sabotaged it via the Keepers.
3. Vendetta possibly figured out the existence of the Catatlyst.
4. The Cruicible seems to have been finished by the Protheans, they just never got to use it becasue of the splinter control faction.
5. Just becasue they lost doesn't mean they didn't know anything.  A Shepherd can pick refuse and watch the universe burn with all that knowledge of the Reapers floating around in their skull.  

1-3: Talk to Javik...and Vigil. The Prothean extinction took generations. These VIs that could sense indoctrination were created after the harvest was well under way. The same for the Prothean scientists on Illos; they sent the signal after the harvesting was complete.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Maxster_ wrote...
They waited.
Catalyst, being as you say, embodiment of the reapers - knew everything, about prothean sabotage, and Sovereign doings.
Even without him,  - Sovereign already tried to start harvest thousands of years ago. Have you ever played ME1?

Yes, finished it for the third time a month ago. There was nothing about Sovereign trying to start the harvest thousands years ago, only "many years ago" which is inconsequential. Hell, even a hundred years wouldn't matter from the Reaper perspective. If you believe I am wrong, feel free to point me towards a specific quote/dialogue which talks about Sovereign trying to start it all up for thousands of years.

Maxster_ wrote...
Sovereign grew bold, desperate and attacked Citadel directly for no other reason than just because. There is no point for him risking his cover. Not a single one. He just attacked because plot demanded to.
-snip-
If you think this doesn't invalidate ME1's storyline - i can't help you.
You have no idea what good, coherent and consistent writing is.

You were talking about overarching series plot. ME1's plot is simply an episode of it. The plothole of Reapers "just arriving" instead of having to go through Citadel is the single worst plothole in the whole series and I truly despise it because of the reasons you outlined  - there was no point for Sovereign to do a suicide attack. As I said, I knew it before I even played ME3.

It does not, however, subvert the plot of conflict with the Reapers which is the main point of the whole series.

Maxster_ wrote...
Well, guessing that you swallowed crap like Crucible - it shows.

I do not like the idea of Crucible very much - I simply say it is relatively plausible, considering the given variables. You seem to happily ignore most of what was said, though, but feel free to re-read my posts on the topic if you wish.

[silverexile17s]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...
They waited.
Catalyst, being as you say, embodiment of the reapers - knew everything, about prothean sabotage, and Sovereign doings.
Even without him,  - Sovereign already tried to start harvest thousands of years ago. Have you ever played ME1?

Yes, finished it for the third time a month ago. There was nothing about Sovereign trying to start the harvest thousands years ago, only "many years ago" which is inconsequential. Hell, even a hundred years wouldn't matter from the Reaper perspective. If you believe I am wrong, feel free to point me towards a specific quote/dialogue which talks about Sovereign trying to start it all up for thousands of years.

Maxster_ wrote...
Sovereign grew bold, desperate and attacked Citadel directly for no other reason than just because. There is no point for him risking his cover. Not a single one. He just attacked because plot demanded to.
-snip-
If you think this doesn't invalidate ME1's storyline - i can't help you.
You have no idea what good, coherent and consistent writing is.

You were talking about overarching series plot. ME1's plot is simply an episode of it. The plothole of Reapers "just arriving" instead of having to go through Citadel is the single worst plothole in the whole series and I truly despise it because of the reasons you outlined  - there was no point for Sovereign to do a suicide attack. As I said, I knew it before I even played ME3.

It does not, however, subvert the plot of conflict with the Reapers which is the main point of the whole series.

Maxster_ wrote...
Well, guessing that you swallowed crap like Crucible - it shows.

I do not like the idea of Crucible very much - I simply say it is relatively plausible, considering the given variables. You seem to happily ignore most of what was said, though, but feel free to re-read my posts on the topic if you wish.

1. Don't hold your breath. He never has any corrilating evidence. Just snide remarks and ignorant veiled insults.

2. Actually, from what I can tell, the point of the Citadel Relay was to bring the Reapers into the galaxy all at once, cut off the heads of their governments, and sieze the Citadel, locking down the entire Mass Realy network. A quick, efficant Instant Victory. THAT'S why Sovergien blitzkreged the Citadel. If it had suceeded, the Reapers would have had an instant win. Instead, they had to slog it through Dark Space and the majority of the galaxt.
THAT'S the difference. It took about three years for the Reapers to get here "on foot,"  compared to instantly through the Citadel Relay. You delayed them and stalled their advance. So no, it's not a plot-hole.

3. He always ignores the fact that the problem with the Crucible is poor plot-execution, not lore. It skits the edge, but nothing about the Cruicble is actually  lore-breaking. It's plot not being executed to it's full potental was the problem.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 26 janvier 2013 - 07:24 .

[Mouton_Alpha]

silverexile17s wrote...

Actually, from what I can tell, the point of the Citadel Relay was to bring the Reapers into the galaxy all at once, cut off the heads of their governments, and sieze the Citadel, locking down the entire Mass Realy network. A quick, efficant Instant Victory. THAT'S why Sovergien blitzkreged the Citadel. If it had suceeded, the Reapers would have had an instant win. Instead, they had to slog it through Dark Space and the majority of the galaxt.
THAT'S the difference. It took about three years for the Reapers to get here "on foot,"  compared to instantly through the Citadel Relay. You delayed them and stalled their advance. So no, it's not a plot-hole.

Turians could not stop the Reapers at Palaven. Humans could not stop the Reapers on Earth. Asari couldn't stop Reapers on Thessia. They were doing whatever the hell they wanted wherever the hell they wanted. Nothing would stop the Reapers from coming to the Citadel via mass relays and taking control of it, instead of targetting the homeworlds. Sovereign alone was barely stopped.

So yes, it is the biggest plothole of them all. The sad thing is, Bioware could have easily explained it away in a relatively plausible manner but they never even tried. I got over it, eventually, but it remains sore note in those quite wonderful games.

silverexile17s wrote...

3. He always ignores the fact that
the problem with the Crucible is poor plot-execution, not lore. It
skits the edge, but nothing about the Cruicble is actually 
lore-breaking. It's plot not being executed to it's full potental was
the problem.

Exactly.

Modifié par Mouton_Alpha, 26 janvier 2013 - 07:29 .

[silverexile17s]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Actually, from what I can tell, the point of the Citadel Relay was to bring the Reapers into the galaxy all at once, cut off the heads of their governments, and sieze the Citadel, locking down the entire Mass Realy network. A quick, efficant Instant Victory. THAT'S why Sovergien blitzkreged the Citadel. If it had suceeded, the Reapers would have had an instant win. Instead, they had to slog it through Dark Space and the majority of the galaxt.
THAT'S the difference. It took about three years for the Reapers to get here "on foot,"  compared to instantly through the Citadel Relay. You delayed them and stalled their advance. So no, it's not a plot-hole.

Turians could not stop the Reapers at Palaven. Humans could not stop the Reapers on Earth. Asari couldn't stop Reapers on Thessia. They were doing whatever the hell they wanted wherever the hell they wanted. Nothing would stop the Reapers from coming to the Citadel via mass relays and taking control of it, instead of targetting the homeworlds. Sovereign alone was barely stopped.

So yes, it is the biggest plothole of them all. The sad thing is, Bioware could have easily explained it away in a relatively plausible manner but they never even tried. I got over it, eventually, but it remains sore note in those quite wonderful games.

silverexile17s wrote...

3. He always ignores the fact that
the problem with the Crucible is poor plot-execution, not lore. It
skits the edge, but nothing about the Cruicble is actually 
lore-breaking. It's plot not being executed to it's full potental was
the problem.

Exactly.

It was still unessessaraly drawn out for them. If they had gone through the Citadel, they could have won instantly, right then and there. Instead, they slogged their way through dark space for three years, then spend six months working their way through the other races. And the Codex on "Reaper Vunerabilaties" states that several Reaper Destroyers and Capitol Ships were brought down. "The Miracle on Palaven" Codex entry in "The Reaper War" section shows that krogan/turian strike teams brought down mutible Reapers from the inside-out with suicide strikes.
It's much more hassle then they'd normally have to deal with, and a major annoyance to them. Remember, they see everything in statistics. They do this because they believe it is the most efficant way to preserve life in the galaxy. They seem to pride on efficancy in thier Harvests.
And Shepard's actions made this Harvest anything but efficant.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 26 janvier 2013 - 07:57 .

[Dean_the_Young]

fr33stylez wrote...
 How can you 'add' to something when you have no idea what it is?

How does technology grow across generations?

Well, the history of technological advancement is that people start with one idea, take it a bit in one direction, and then some one else with a different idea and a different perspecitve takes it somewhere else. Ultimtely the first person's intent or vision is irrelevant.

Another question: why didn't the original creators of the Crucible simply build something that targets the Reapers?

Because there was no simply, and the Reapers killed them.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Turians could not stop the Reapers at Palaven. Humans could not stop the Reapers on Earth. Asari couldn't stop Reapers on Thessia. They were doing whatever the hell they wanted wherever the hell they wanted. Nothing would stop the Reapers from coming to the Citadel via mass relays and taking control of it, instead of targetting the homeworlds. Sovereign alone was barely stopped.

Sovereign alone was barely stopped because the Reapers successfully found a means of bypassing the Citadel defenses and mounting an internal surprise attack, and then sealing the Conduit behind them. If the Conduit ploy hadn't worked, the margin for Organic victory would have been much larger.

So yes, it is the biggest plothole of them all. The sad thing is, Bioware could have easily explained it away in a relatively plausible manner but they never even tried. I got over it, eventually, but it remains sore note in those quite wonderful games.

Even what you posted isn't a plot hole: it's just a different strategy that would have worked differently. It can also be counter-argued by arguing that if the Reapers are going to send a force large enough to take the Citadel by storm all the way from Dark Space, then they might as well just all fly over from Dark Space in the first place. Bringing them in via the Citadel in particular doesn't win them the war.

[silverexile17s]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Turians could not stop the Reapers at Palaven. Humans could not stop the Reapers on Earth. Asari couldn't stop Reapers on Thessia. They were doing whatever the hell they wanted wherever the hell they wanted. Nothing would stop the Reapers from coming to the Citadel via mass relays and taking control of it, instead of targetting the homeworlds. Sovereign alone was barely stopped.

Sovereign alone was barely stopped because the Reapers successfully found a means of bypassing the Citadel defenses and mounting an internal surprise attack, and then sealing the Conduit behind them. If the Conduit ploy hadn't worked, the margin for Organic victory would have been much larger.

So yes, it is the biggest plothole of them all. The sad thing is, Bioware could have easily explained it away in a relatively plausible manner but they never even tried. I got over it, eventually, but it remains sore note in those quite wonderful games.

Even what you posted isn't a plot hole: it's just a different strategy that would have worked differently. It can also be counter-argued by arguing that if the Reapers are going to send a force large enough to take the Citadel by storm all the way from Dark Space, then they might as well just all fly over from Dark Space in the first place. Bringing them in via the Citadel in particular doesn't win them the war.

Actually, bringing them via the Citadel would have won the war. They wipe out the Council, putting the galaxy in chaos, demolish the core of the Citadel's fleet and power base, and by taking the Citadel, can completely lock down the Mass Relays, cutting off any and all hope of effective retaliation. And the shock and surprise of the sudden loss of the galaxy's seat of government would panic the galaxy, making coordinated retaliation implausible.
But they lost that, so now, they have to spend three years treaking in from Dark Space, then slog all the way through the combined weight of the other races, taking more losses then avarage.
So yes, the Citadel DID indeed matter. The Reapers lost a major advantage when Sovergien failed. Bringing the Reapers in via the Citadel in particular would have won the war instantly. Anything after would simply be mopping up for them.

[Dean_the_Young]

silverexile17s wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Turians could not stop the Reapers at Palaven. Humans could not stop the Reapers on Earth. Asari couldn't stop Reapers on Thessia. They were doing whatever the hell they wanted wherever the hell they wanted. Nothing would stop the Reapers from coming to the Citadel via mass relays and taking control of it, instead of targetting the homeworlds. Sovereign alone was barely stopped.

Sovereign alone was barely stopped because the Reapers successfully found a means of bypassing the Citadel defenses and mounting an internal surprise attack, and then sealing the Conduit behind them. If the Conduit ploy hadn't worked, the margin for Organic victory would have been much larger.

So yes, it is the biggest plothole of them all. The sad thing is, Bioware could have easily explained it away in a relatively plausible manner but they never even tried. I got over it, eventually, but it remains sore note in those quite wonderful games.

Even what you posted isn't a plot hole: it's just a different strategy that would have worked differently. It can also be counter-argued by arguing that if the Reapers are going to send a force large enough to take the Citadel by storm all the way from Dark Space, then they might as well just all fly over from Dark Space in the first place. Bringing them in via the Citadel in particular doesn't win them the war.

Actually, bringing them via the Citadel would have won the war. They wipe out the Council, putting the galaxy in chaos, demolish the core of the Citadel's fleet and power base, and by taking the Citadel, can completely lock down the Mass Relays, cutting off any and all hope of effective retaliation. And the shock and surprise of the sudden loss of the galaxy's seat of government would panic the galaxy, making coordinated retaliation implausible.

The war is already won once they arrive: the Reapers were never in danger of losing it, regardless of their means of invasion. Only a technological superweapon gambit (like the Crucible) could overcome them, but the divide-and-conquer scheme is just icing on the already baked cake. The thing about a Crucible gambit, though, is that it doesn't actually need a relay-connected galaxy to actually develop.

But they lost that, so now, they have to spend three years treaking in from Dark Space, then slog all the way through the combined weight of the other races, taking more losses then avarage.
So yes, the Citadel DID indeed matter. The Reapers lost a major advantage when Sovergien failed. Bringing the Reapers in via the Citadel in particular would have won the war instantly. Anything after would simply be mopping up for them.

I'm not sure what argument you think you're countering, or what counter-point you intend to make since you aren't countering what I was actually addressing, which is that the Reapers are not dependent on the Citadel Relay to win.

The point in particular I was addressing, that the Rea[ers could send a small task force from Dark Space, still has all the same disadvantages: they still have to send three years to slog through Dark Space and defenses in hopes of capturing the Citadel before it turtles up and the galactic resistance is forewarned. At which point you might as well just bring in the entire Reaper force, which will win regardless no matter how it arrives.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Sovereign alone was barely stopped because the Reapers successfully found a means of bypassing the Citadel defenses and mounting an internal surprise attack, and then sealing the Conduit behind them. If the Conduit ploy hadn't worked, the margin for Organic victory would have been much larger.

Ah, Conduit, the worst idea in ME1, a game that I love. The whole game is focused on searching for it and yet it is only a teleport to the Citadel. Saren, being a non-disgraced Spectre who did not attack Eden Prime could easily infiltrate the Citadel himself. Hell, he could get any number of C-Sec/Spectres indoctrinated by taking them on a week-long "secret mission on that cool big ship i got". Heh, even Council itself - I mean, he got Benezia, powerful strong-willed matriarch and all that. Then, he could simply dock Sovereign at the Citadel withouth aving to fire a single shot.

And that is only one of the ways simpler than de facto declaring war on the Council searching for something which location might be known by a dead species and a crazy plant.

Dean_the_Young wrote...Even what you posted isn't a plot hole: it's just a different strategy that would have worked differently. It can also be counter-argued by arguing that if the Reapers are going to send a force large enough to take the Citadel by storm all the way from Dark Space, then they might as well just all fly over from Dark Space in the first place. Bringing them in via the Citadel in particular doesn't win them the war.

Sovereign spends years trying to form a plan to activate the Citadel relay. Launches a suicide attack.
Then they can just fly over in 3 years anyway.
He could have just called Harbringer and tell him to come without even moving from his hiding place.

[Dean_the_Young]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Sovereign alone was barely stopped because the Reapers successfully found a means of bypassing the Citadel defenses and mounting an internal surprise attack, and then sealing the Conduit behind them. If the Conduit ploy hadn't worked, the margin for Organic victory would have been much larger.

Ah, Conduit, the worst idea in ME1, a game that I love. The whole game is focused on searching for it and yet it is only a teleport to the Citadel. Saren, being a non-disgraced Spectre who did not attack Eden Prime could easily infiltrate the Citadel himself. Hell, he could get any number of C-Sec/Spectres indoctrinated by taking them on a week-long "secret mission on that cool big ship i got". Heh, even Council itself - I mean, he got Benezia, powerful strong-willed matriarch and all that. Then, he could simply dock Sovereign at the Citadel withouth aving to fire a single shot.

There's a lot of supposition in this that need not be conceeded.

And that is only one of the ways simpler than de facto declaring war on the Council searching for something which location might be known by a dead species and a crazy plant.

Not exactly much 'might' has to be believed: Rachni genetic memory is a fact, and given the age of the Thorian the Reapers could have basis to accept it's Cypher as a given.

Sovereign spends years trying to form a plan to activate the Citadel relay. Launches a suicide attack.
Then they can just fly over in 3 years anyway.
He could have just called Harbringer and tell him to come without even moving from his hiding place.

The Citadel Assault isn't a suicide attack: suicide attacks result in the attacker dying even in the course of successfully attacking. If Sovereign succeeded in opening the relay, it wouldn't have been destroyed: the Reaper fleets would have blown away the Citadel Fleets, leaving Sovereign alive.

You're also dismissing the difference between necessity and preferable. If the Reapers come from Dark Space and do the invasion the long way, they lose the advantages of the Citadel Trap: the primary advantage of the Citadel Trap isn't in winning the war, but in the Reaper efficiency of the war that follows. As long as the Reapers can't crack into the Citadel and break through the Prothean sabotage, they'll face casualties they would prefer not to incur.

[InvincibleHero]

Obviously, you can't build something without planning what it is going to do. It can't be let's just throw these things together and see what it does. The crucible was designed to do exactly what it does.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 27 janvier 2013 - 12:14 .

[silverexile17s]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Turians could not stop the Reapers at Palaven. Humans could not stop the Reapers on Earth. Asari couldn't stop Reapers on Thessia. They were doing whatever the hell they wanted wherever the hell they wanted. Nothing would stop the Reapers from coming to the Citadel via mass relays and taking control of it, instead of targetting the homeworlds. Sovereign alone was barely stopped.

Sovereign alone was barely stopped because the Reapers successfully found a means of bypassing the Citadel defenses and mounting an internal surprise attack, and then sealing the Conduit behind them. If the Conduit ploy hadn't worked, the margin for Organic victory would have been much larger.

So yes, it is the biggest plothole of them all. The sad thing is, Bioware could have easily explained it away in a relatively plausible manner but they never even tried. I got over it, eventually, but it remains sore note in those quite wonderful games.

Even what you posted isn't a plot hole: it's just a different strategy that would have worked differently. It can also be counter-argued by arguing that if the Reapers are going to send a force large enough to take the Citadel by storm all the way from Dark Space, then they might as well just all fly over from Dark Space in the first place. Bringing them in via the Citadel in particular doesn't win them the war.

Actually, bringing them via the Citadel would have won the war. They wipe out the Council, putting the galaxy in chaos, demolish the core of the Citadel's fleet and power base, and by taking the Citadel, can completely lock down the Mass Relays, cutting off any and all hope of effective retaliation. And the shock and surprise of the sudden loss of the galaxy's seat of government would panic the galaxy, making coordinated retaliation implausible.

The war is already won once they arrive: the Reapers were never in danger of losing it, regardless of their means of invasion. Only a technological superweapon gambit (like the Crucible) could overcome them, but the divide-and-conquer scheme is just icing on the already baked cake. The thing about a Crucible gambit, though, is that it doesn't actually need a relay-connected galaxy to actually develop.

But they lost that, so now, they have to spend three years treaking in from Dark Space, then slog all the way through the combined weight of the other races, taking more losses then avarage.
So yes, the Citadel DID indeed matter. The Reapers lost a major advantage when Sovergien failed. Bringing the Reapers in via the Citadel in particular would have won the war instantly. Anything after would simply be mopping up for them.

I'm not sure what argument you think you're countering, or what counter-point you intend to make since you aren't countering what I was actually addressing, which is that the Reapers are not dependent on the Citadel Relay to win.

The point in particular I was addressing, that the Rea[ers could send a small task force from Dark Space, still has all the same disadvantages: they still have to send three years to slog through Dark Space and defenses in hopes of capturing the Citadel before it turtles up and the galactic resistance is forewarned. At which point you might as well just bring in the entire Reaper force, which will win regardless no matter how it arrives.

The Crucible, spicifically the Destroy Ending, disproves that statement of yours.  If it never was a threat, why did they scramble to take the Citadel so quickly, after learning what the Crucible was "missing?"
They were scared.
Again, check the Codex "Reaper Vuneribilaties" and "The Miracle at Palaven." The Reapers are anything but invincible. This cost them more then they expected. They were overconfident.
So they were in danger of losing the war. Every time a cycle worked on the Crucible, there was a danger of them losing if thing went wrong - like if a cycle build it completely, or if they had some inkling of what was coming in advance.

And did you NOT watch the endings? The Crucible pulse is spread through the entire relay network. So YES - a relay-connected galaxy IS THE SOLE KEY ELEMENT in the Crucible working. WIthout the network to spread the pulse, only the Reapers in the immediat vicinity of the Crucible would be affected. You'd win the battle but not the war, and the other Reapers would re-group and counterattack. You need the network online TO WIN THE WAR.
The Cruicble would be worthless without the Relays.

And weren't YOU the one talking about how the Citadel relay was to ensure efficancy and garuntee that they win quickly? Thsi slog through dark space and the loss of their surprise kill-strike cost them much more then normally. They woudl need at least a dozen cycles, maybe more, to recoup their losses.
This shouldn't be that hard for you of all people to understand: It was NEVER about the win. They assume that's a given. It was all about efficancy. THAT'S why the Citadel is so important, and why losing it wasn't good for them: It cost them several "immortilzed species," which is detrimental to their cause. I'm telling you that it DID matter to lose the Citadel.

[silverexile17s]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Sovereign alone was barely stopped because the Reapers successfully found a means of bypassing the Citadel defenses and mounting an internal surprise attack, and then sealing the Conduit behind them. If the Conduit ploy hadn't worked, the margin for Organic victory would have been much larger.

Ah, Conduit, the worst idea in ME1, a game that I love. The whole game is focused on searching for it and yet it is only a teleport to the Citadel. Saren, being a non-disgraced Spectre who did not attack Eden Prime could easily infiltrate the Citadel himself. Hell, he could get any number of C-Sec/Spectres indoctrinated by taking them on a week-long "secret mission on that cool big ship i got". Heh, even Council itself - I mean, he got Benezia, powerful strong-willed matriarch and all that. Then, he could simply dock Sovereign at the Citadel withouth aving to fire a single shot.

And that is only one of the ways simpler than de facto declaring war on the Council searching for something which location might be known by a dead species and a crazy plant.

Dean_the_Young wrote...Even what you posted isn't a plot hole: it's just a different strategy that would have worked differently. It can also be counter-argued by arguing that if the Reapers are going to send a force large enough to take the Citadel by storm all the way from Dark Space, then they might as well just all fly over from Dark Space in the first place. Bringing them in via the Citadel in particular doesn't win them the war.

Sovereign spends years trying to form a plan to activate the Citadel relay. Launches a suicide attack.
Then they can just fly over in 3 years anyway.
He could have just called Harbringer and tell him to come without even moving from his hiding place.

You don't know much about politics, do you?
The Council would have raised an eyebrow at a Spectre suddenly recruting so many Citadel personell, and in Saren's case, the last thing he'd want is to raise suspission and draw attention to himself.
Eden Prime was where the Beacon was. An artifact of galactic-level importance like that? AND the information on the Reapers it held? No way could he risk anyone decipering that. And had the Council taken possession of it first, they would never have allowed him to access it without getting a good reason from him, then getting clearance to see it, as not even Spectres can tamper with prothean tech with impunity. At least, not without reasons that would have taken too long to frabicate.
So NO. That wouldn't have worked at ALL.

And again, look how many losses they took in the Reaper war. Dozens of Reapers. Capitol ships, harvester ships and Destroyers. Losses they would not have taken had the Citadel trap worked.
So no, ME1's plot is not at all rendered pointless.

[Dean_the_Young]

silverexile17s wrote...
The Crucible, spicifically the Destroy Ending, disproves that statement of yours.  If it never was a threat, why did they scramble to take the Citadel so quickly, after learning what the Crucible was "missing?"
They were scared.

The Crucible is the threat, not the war potential of the species.

Again, check the Codex "Reaper Vuneribilaties" and "The Miracle at Palaven." The Reapers are anything but invincible. This cost them more then they expected. They were overconfident.

Given that they preferred to way yeard/decades/centuries to attempt a perfect victory rather than come the long way, overconfidence is unlikely.

Also, no one was claiming the Reapers were invincible. The Reapers don't need to be invincible to be the undisputed victors in the war, however.

And did you NOT watch the endings? The Crucible pulse is spread through the entire relay network. So YES - a relay-connected galaxy IS THE SOLE KEY ELEMENT in the Crucible working. WIthout the network to spread the pulse, only the Reapers in the immediat vicinity of the Crucible would be affected. You'd win the battle but not the war, and the other Reapers would re-group and counterattack. You need the network online TO WIN THE WAR.
The Cruicble would be worthless without the Relays.

Since the Crucible needs the Catalyst, and the Catalyst is the Citadel, and the Citadel relay alone can do a galaxy-cale pulse, you wouldn't even need the relay network: just the Citadel/Crucible and concurrent pulses could establish a galactic safe-zone.

But, again, this relies on the Crucible... which is distinct from the conventional war.

Regardless, you're going on a tangent by arguing against things I'm not arguing.

And weren't YOU the one talking about how the Citadel relay was to ensure efficancy and garuntee that they win quickly?

Yes... but your counter-arguments aren't even countering this. If anything, they support it.

This slog through dark space and the loss of their surprise kill-strike cost them much more then normally.

Which supports me.

They woudl need at least a dozen cycles, maybe more, to recoup their losses.

Which isn't a disqualifier. Once they beat this cycle, they can re-tool their trap and timing however they want to adjust for the future cycles. They don't even have to allow the cycles to grow in strength to present a resistance, if they're that weakened.

Nor do they actually have to wait a dozen cycles. If their losses are so severe, they could just farm one cycle for replacement Reapers until they re-bolster their forces. There's no established reason why they must limit themselves to one Reaper per species.

This shouldn't be that hard for you of all people to understand: It was NEVER about the win. They assume that's a given. It was all about efficancy. THAT'S why the Citadel is so important, and why losing it wasn't good for them: It cost them several "immortilzed species," which is detrimental to their cause. I'm telling you that it DID matter to lose the Citadel.

...yeah, you might want to re-read my arguments a bit, because it's pretty clear you don't even realize how much in agreement you are with them.

[silverexile17s]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...
The Crucible, spicifically the Destroy Ending, disproves that statement of yours.  If it never was a threat, why did they scramble to take the Citadel so quickly, after learning what the Crucible was "missing?"
They were scared.

The Crucible is the threat, not the war potential of the species.

Again, check the Codex "Reaper Vuneribilaties" and "The Miracle at Palaven." The Reapers are anything but invincible. This cost them more then they expected. They were overconfident.

Given that they preferred to way yeard/decades/centuries to attempt a perfect victory rather than come the long way, overconfidence is unlikely.

Also, no one was claiming the Reapers were invincible. The Reapers don't need to be invincible to be the undisputed victors in the war, however.

And did you NOT watch the endings? The Crucible pulse is spread through the entire relay network. So YES - a relay-connected galaxy IS THE SOLE KEY ELEMENT in the Crucible working. WIthout the network to spread the pulse, only the Reapers in the immediat vicinity of the Crucible would be affected. You'd win the battle but not the war, and the other Reapers would re-group and counterattack. You need the network online TO WIN THE WAR.
The Cruicble would be worthless without the Relays.

Since the Crucible needs the Catalyst, and the Catalyst is the Citadel, and the Citadel relay alone can do a galaxy-cale pulse, you wouldn't even need the relay network: just the Citadel/Crucible and concurrent pulses could establish a galactic safe-zone.

But, again, this relies on the Crucible... which is distinct from the conventional war.

Regardless, you're going on a tangent by arguing against things I'm not arguing.

And weren't YOU the one talking about how the Citadel relay was to ensure efficancy and garuntee that they win quickly?

Yes... but your counter-arguments aren't even countering this. If anything, they support it.

This slog through dark space and the loss of their surprise kill-strike cost them much more then normally.

Which supports me.

They woudl need at least a dozen cycles, maybe more, to recoup their losses.

Which isn't a disqualifier. Once they beat this cycle, they can re-tool their trap and timing however they want to adjust for the future cycles. They don't even have to allow the cycles to grow in strength to present a resistance, if they're that weakened.

Nor do they actually have to wait a dozen cycles. If their losses are so severe, they could just farm one cycle for replacement Reapers until they re-bolster their forces. There's no established reason why they must limit themselves to one Reaper per species.

This shouldn't be that hard for you of all people to understand: It was NEVER about the win. They assume that's a given. It was all about efficancy. THAT'S why the Citadel is so important, and why losing it wasn't good for them: It cost them several "immortilzed species," which is detrimental to their cause. I'm telling you that it DID matter to lose the Citadel.

...yeah, you might want to re-read my arguments a bit, because it's pretty clear you don't even realize how much in agreement you are with them.

1. Tell that to the Derilict Reaper from ME2. The species were bringing down a good portion of Reapers. I again point you to the "Reaper Vulerabilaties" and "The Miracle on Palaven" Codex entires as proof that the races were holding their ground and making kills. Even if you failed, the post-refuse ending suggests that they took a chunk out of the Reapers.
So no, the species ARE a threat to the Reapers, according to the aftermentioned codex entires. Maybe not a major threat, but a threat all the same.

2. Listen to Harbinger's diolouge. Overconfident was practally it's middle name. Same with Sovergien.
They are overconfident and arrogant. Half of the blows against them would never have landed had they not been this way. And again, as said above, undisputed victors isn't a given.

3. Again, only in the general area of where it is at that given moment in time. Suppose the majority of Reapers AREN'T in the radius of the thing. THEN what?
The relays are CRUCIAL to the Crucible.
And out of the three endings, two end in the Citadel being destroyed, so WHAT safe zone? The Crucible is basically a one-shot weapon. Only one go. So no, after the initial shot, there is NOTHING to stop more Reapers from coming in, unless you get them ALL in the first shot. Which is impossible, unless you have the RELAYS to spread the pulse to all corners of the galaxy.
So no, the Relays ARE CRUCIAL to the Cruicble.

4. And yet, you were the one that said ME1's plot was pointless, were you not?

5. Again, YOU said ME1's plot was pointless, as I recall.

6. And there IS no proof that they WILL beat THIS CYCLE. And besides, that's moot, since we KNOW they DON'T.
And again, they lost over a dozen Sovergien class, if the reports and Codex are correct. Only one Sovergien-class can be made per-cycle (source: Leviathans: "Each cycle ends with the birth of a Reaper.")
So yes. One cycle for every lost Sovergien-class. Only one race is used for this every cycle, according to the Leviathans. It seems that only ONE species has the genetic diversity to become a Sovergien-class Reaper. If that WASN'T true, they wouldn't have those limits NOW. They do have a limit to how many they make per-cycle, and given their goals, they wouldn't willingly have that limit unless there was no choice.
So YES, every Reaper lost is a blow. Not just in number strength, but their goal of preserving all races, in which an entire preserved race is lost with the death of each Reaper.

7. According to those arguements, YOU were the one that said ME1's plot was pointless. I said it wasn't.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

1. Tell that to the Derilict Reaper from ME2. The species were bringing down a good portion of Reapers. I again point you to the "Reaper Vulerabilaties" and "The Miracle on Palaven" Codex entires as proof that the races were holding their ground and making kills. Even if you failed, the post-refuse ending suggests that they took a chunk out of the Reapers.[/quote]A good portion? The Derilect Reaper was one Reaper, and the weapon that did it was described as a last-ditch effort that was broken immediately after. Nor do the codecies you mention establish a good portion: the tactics that defeated a handful of Reapers over Palaven were immediately countered by the commencement of orbitabl bombardment on Palaven, and the Miracle of Palaven was a momentary pause in a consistent Reaper advance on Palaven. These are countered by far more extensive and numerous defeats of organic fleets which are far less equiped to sustain such losses.

[quote]
So no, the species ARE a threat to the Reapers, according to the aftermentioned codex entires. Maybe not a major threat, but a threat all the same.[/quote]Perhaps it's because of my profession and we may use a different consideration of what a significant threat is, but I'm going to have to ask you what makes something a significant threat. Minor harrassment damage generally wouldn't be considered a real threat to an overarching campaign.
[quote]
2. Listen to Harbinger's diolouge. Overconfident was practally it's middle name. Same with Sovergien.
They are overconfident and arrogant. Half of the blows against them would never have landed had they not been this way. And again, as said above, undisputed victors isn't a given.[/quote]Given that the only known survivors of tens of thousands of cycles are a few Protheans (only one of which is still alive) and the last remnants of the Leviathans hiding in an ocean abyss, justified confidence is hardly uncalled for.
[quote]
3. Again, only in the general area of where it is at that given moment in time. Suppose the majority of Reapers AREN'T in the radius of the thing. THEN what?[/quote]Then the Reapers aren't in a position to immediately zoom in and destroy the forces. It's a holding pattern, but one that could conceivably be continued indefinitely if the Citadel's catalyst-functions could be brought back in the months/years it would take the Reapers to re-reach the point of firing . But then, as I said earlier, this is a tangent.

[quote]
4. And yet, you were the one that said ME1's plot was pointless, were you not?[/quote]No, I was not.
[quote]
5. Again, YOU said ME1's plot was pointless, as I recall.[/quote]You recall incorrectly.
[quote]
6. And there IS no proof that they WILL beat THIS CYCLE. [/quote]There is: the end result of Refuse, which is the outcome of a conventional war.

[quote]And besides, that's moot, since we KNOW they DON'T.[/quote]If you don't use the Crucible, we know that they do. The cycle wins on the basis of the Crucible, not the conventional war effort.

[quote]
And again, they lost over a dozen Sovergien class, if the reports and Codex are correct. Only one Sovergien-class can be made per-cycle (source: Leviathans: "Each cycle ends with the birth of a Reaper.")[/quote]That's a practice, not a limitation: that they habitually only make one per cycle doesn't mean they can only make one per cycle. If exceptional circumstances present themselves, that does not mean the Reapers can't stray from their standard practices to compensate.

Of course, this is also yet another tangent because they don't need classic Reapers to supplement their forces. The Catalyst initiated the Cycle before there was the host of Reapers to carry out its will, so the Reapers can clearly have their forces supplemented by non-Reaper assets: the Reapers aren't forced to act at reduced capacity in any follow-on cycle if they don't wish to.
[quote]
So YES, every Reaper lost is a blow. Not just in number strength, but their goal of preserving all races, in which an entire preserved race is lost with the death of each Reaper.[/quote]And so they lose some preserved races. In the scheme of continuing the cycle, that's insignificant: the Cycle doesn't actually require itself to be fought only by Reaper vessels.

Just going by the Leviathan of Dis, the Reapers have had over 20,000 cycles. On Dreadnaughts alone that would be overwhelming of the current galactic naval balance of power established by the Treaty of Farixen, the 5:3:1 ratio for Turian:Council Race: Non Council, with the Council races having Dreadnaughts numbering up to the dozens, not hundreds.

Even if you went far beyond anything implied about the other cycles and gave the Reapers a .95 attrition rate per cycle for their Dreadnaughts in the 'normal' cycles, that would still give them a good thousand at the start of this cycle, even without factoring in their Destroyers and other sub-types. Given that the entire galaxy together doesn't have a quarter that number, the Reapers are in no danger of being attrited away to nothing in this or any near cycle.




[quote]
7. According to those arguements, YOU were the one that said ME1's plot was pointless. I said it wasn't.
[/quote]You might want to use other people's actual arguments in the future, rather than ones you choose to assign to them in your confusion.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 27 janvier 2013 - 04:35 .

[3DandBeyond]

fr33stylez wrote...

How could they not? Or did they say "let's start building something and see where we end up"?

If they did know what they were building, why can't subsequent cycles decipher this from the blueprints? How can you 'add' to something when you have no idea what it is?

Another question: why didn't the original creators of the Crucible simply build something that targets the Reapers?

Someone had to know of the catalyst's existence and how he worked-his program.  It seems it must have been the person or persons who created the original plans, because those who adapted it later on were all organics, trying to defeat the reapers.  Since the plans alter the kid in order to make 3 choices viable (ok, this in no way fits with it being just a power source), and he says it changed him.  Well, he is basically a program with intelligence and a (ugh) personality. 

There are a lot of problems with this.  No one that adapted the plans could have known about the kid (the AI) or how to make the crucible work with his program to change his solution from the reapers to 3 choices. 

And then, if they were going to make the crucible do anything, why would they not just make it destroy the reapers?  Why would people adapt the plans to make 3 choices possible?  Considering that to date, no rational person has ever wanted to do anything but destroy them, then it just seems really stupid to think some organic race would alter the plans to allow for Control and Synthesis.  Even the Protheans, as potentially ruthless as they were (and somewhat more like the Leviathans in their role in the galaxy) wanted to destroy them, indoctrinated Protheans (perhaps that became the Collectors), wanted to control them, so they fought and didn't use the crucible in time.

The other problem is that everyone working on the crucible seems to think it's for destroying reapers-it's a weapon, or so they think. Not one person ever looks at the blueprints and says, "what's this here-this part where the crucible has programming to change this AI program so it alters some variables and opens up to 3 solutions?"  The only thing said about the crucible is it needs the catalyst-the citadel is thought to be the catalyst.  The citadel is a part of the catalyst.  But the crucible changes the catalyst.  In order to create something to alter an AI (a computer program), you must create and use code to do that.  So, the blueprints might say, "build this CPU", but someone still has to code it.

Whoever made it to work with the Catalyst, had to know what the Catalyst was and where he was, and how to change him, if the Crucible is responsible for the choices (he says it isn't, but then contradicts himself if it changed him).  Either the Crucible just powers up the choices on the Citadel (where the kid is and a part of him, so the choices are a part of him), or the choices are part of some coding in the Crucible that is used to change the kid's programming.  This is just a mess, IMO.

If the person who made it to work with the kid didn't know about the kid, it would be like me trying to create a peripheral for a computer to do some function that I don't know, using some connection I know nothing about, using some programming language I do not know, and not even knowing the peripheral is even for a computer-not knowing what it's to work with.

[3DandBeyond]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

1. Tell that to the Derilict Reaper from ME2. The species were bringing down a good portion of Reapers. I again point you to the "Reaper Vulerabilaties" and "The Miracle on Palaven" Codex entires as proof that the races were holding their ground and making kills. Even if you failed, the post-refuse ending suggests that they took a chunk out of the Reapers.

A good portion? The Derilect Reaper was one Reaper, and the weapon that did it was described as a last-ditch effort that was broken immediately after. Nor do the codecies you mention establish a good portion: the tactics that defeated a handful of Reapers over Palaven were immediately countered by the commencement of orbitabl bombardment on Palaven, and the Miracle of Palaven was a momentary pause in a consistent Reaper advance on Palaven. These are countered by far more extensive and numerous defeats of organic fleets which are far less equiped to sustain such losses.
snipped

The problem is for me that in my game (and I don't think I'm alone) my war assets screen says my chances of winning are even.  A bit later, Anderson says something about wondering what the odds are for defeating the reapers (or some such thing), and I get this overwhelming urge to tell him that I was informed the odds were even, as in 50/50.  For some insanely impossible to beat monsters, and even for other fights (say some wars in human history), those are pretty good odds.  And, someone else says that the reapers are vulnerable (earlier on).  Cohesiveness is more than just a word.  The war asset screen should have said, "you have nearly 12,000 EMS.  So what, you could have a million.  It's still hopeless, moron."  And, my odds never seem to get any better-funny.  I still say those are way better odds then, "it's hopeless, impossible, suicide to try and fight."

[silverexile17s]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

[quote]silverexile17s wrote...

1. Tell that to the Derilict Reaper from ME2. The species were bringing down a good portion of Reapers. I again point you to the "Reaper Vulerabilaties" and "The Miracle on Palaven" Codex entires as proof that the races were holding their ground and making kills. Even if you failed, the post-refuse ending suggests that they took a chunk out of the Reapers.[/quote]A good portion? The Derilect Reaper was one Reaper, and the weapon that did it was described as a last-ditch effort that was broken immediately after. Nor do the codecies you mention establish a good portion: the tactics that defeated a handful of Reapers over Palaven were immediately countered by the commencement of orbitabl bombardment on Palaven, and the Miracle of Palaven was a momentary pause in a consistent Reaper advance on Palaven. These are countered by far more extensive and numerous defeats of organic fleets which are far less equiped to sustain such losses.

[quote]
So no, the species ARE a threat to the Reapers, according to the aftermentioned codex entires. Maybe not a major threat, but a threat all the same.[/quote]Perhaps it's because of my profession and we may use a different consideration of what a significant threat is, but I'm going to have to ask you what makes something a significant threat. Minor harrassment damage generally wouldn't be considered a real threat to an overarching campaign.
[quote]
2. Listen to Harbinger's diolouge. Overconfident was practally it's middle name. Same with Sovergien.
They are overconfident and arrogant. Half of the blows against them would never have landed had they not been this way. And again, as said above, undisputed victors isn't a given.[/quote]Given that the only known survivors of tens of thousands of cycles are a few Protheans (only one of which is still alive) and the last remnants of the Leviathans hiding in an ocean abyss, justified confidence is hardly uncalled for.
[quote]
3. Again, only in the general area of where it is at that given moment in time. Suppose the majority of Reapers AREN'T in the radius of the thing. THEN what?[/quote]Then the Reapers aren't in a position to immediately zoom in and destroy the forces. It's a holding pattern, but one that could conceivably be continued indefinitely if the Citadel's catalyst-functions could be brought back in the months/years it would take the Reapers to re-reach the point of firing . But then, as I said earlier, this is a tangent.

[quote]
4. And yet, you were the one that said ME1's plot was pointless, were you not?[/quote]No, I was not.
[quote]
5. Again, YOU said ME1's plot was pointless, as I recall.[/quote]You recall incorrectly.
[quote]
6. And there IS no proof that they WILL beat THIS CYCLE. [/quote]There is: the end result of Refuse, which is the outcome of a conventional war.

[quote]And besides, that's moot, since we KNOW they DON'T.[/quote]If you don't use the Crucible, we know that they do. The cycle wins on the basis of the Crucible, not the conventional war effort.

[quote]
And again, they lost over a dozen Sovergien class, if the reports and Codex are correct. Only one Sovergien-class can be made per-cycle (source: Leviathans: "Each cycle ends with the birth of a Reaper.")[/quote]That's a practice, not a limitation: that they habitually only make one per cycle doesn't mean they can only make one per cycle. If exceptional circumstances present themselves, that does not mean the Reapers can't stray from their standard practices to compensate.

Of course, this is also yet another tangent because they don't need classic Reapers to supplement their forces. The Catalyst initiated the Cycle before there was the host of Reapers to carry out its will, so the Reapers can clearly have their forces supplemented by non-Reaper assets: the Reapers aren't forced to act at reduced capacity in any follow-on cycle if they don't wish to.
[quote]
So YES, every Reaper lost is a blow. Not just in number strength, but their goal of preserving all races, in which an entire preserved race is lost with the death of each Reaper.[/quote]And so they lose some preserved races. In the scheme of continuing the cycle, that's insignificant: the Cycle doesn't actually require itself to be fought only by Reaper vessels.

Just going by the Leviathan of Dis, the Reapers have had over 20,000 cycles. On Dreadnaughts alone that would be overwhelming of the current galactic naval balance of power established by the Treaty of Farixen, the 5:3:1 ratio for Turian:Council Race: Non Council, with the Council races having Dreadnaughts numbering up to the dozens, not hundreds.

Even if you went far beyond anything implied about the other cycles and gave the Reapers a .95 attrition rate per cycle for their Dreadnaughts in the 'normal' cycles, that would still give them a good thousand at the start of this cycle, even without factoring in their Destroyers and other sub-types. Given that the entire galaxy together doesn't have a quarter that number, the Reapers are in no danger of being attrited away to nothing in this or any near cycle.




[quote]
7. According to those arguements, YOU were the one that said ME1's plot was pointless. I said it wasn't.
[/quote]You might want to use other people's actual arguments in the future, rather than ones you choose to assign to them in your confusion.
[/quote]
1. That is an assumption. You don't have any proof of that. If anything, it represents that you don't need the Crucible to fight them

2. The dmage and recoveru time. The Reapers can't restore the "preserved" races that are lost when a Reaper dies. So every single Reaper lost damages their cause of preserving all life. And it takes 50,000 years just to replace one Reaper.

3. Justified confidence? Tell that to Sovergien. Or Harbinger's Collector Base. Or the Reaper that came for the Leviathans. Or the dozens of Reapers that died so far. Face it: they're more vunerable then you admit.

4. The Reapers certinly didn't react that way with the Citadel. As soon as they learned there was a possibilaty of it docking, they took the Citadel instantly. They panicked. They were afriad. They saw it as a threat. They attack a threat instantly. So, AGAIN, you either have ONE SHOT, with the Realy Network, or NONE.

5. Didn't you say that the Citadel had no point, because the Reapers arrive anyway? That the Cidatel had no point in slowing them, because you insisted they'd win anyway? Isn't that what you said?
MY point is that it WASN'T a pointless win for Shepard or the organics. That it WAS a win to stall them like that.

6. And Refuse hardly counts, as it was a cop-out since BioWare didn't want to expend the money making and ending the fans actually WANTED. That was a classic "our way or nothing" tactic.
And if you REALLY want to get technical, the fact that the next cycle stopped them seems to indicate they softened them up quite a bit.
It had NOTHING to do with conventional war.  BioWare simply didn't want to admit that another option was needed, nor give the satisfaction of fleshing out what everyone but them wanted. That sounds petty, but there seems to be no other reason why it wasn't done. The War Assets seem to indicate that the Allies have a 50/50 chance to beat the Reaper fleet over Earth.

7. Again. the Reapers are obsessed with efficancy. They would NEVER willingly limit themselves like that. They would only make one Reaper at a time, if they had no other CHOICE. They lost Reapers before, yet the Leviathans ALWAYS state the EVERY cycle ends with the birth of "a Reaper."  A Reaper. As in singular.
It's NOT CHOICE. It's an actual limit.

8. Destroyers are just foot-soldiers compared to the Sovergien-class. Those "servents" were likely just Destroyers.

9. Preserving those races it their entire point of their existing. If they didn't care, they wouldn't DO this, nor take such pains to ensure evey species is harvested.
And the statistics by the Leviathans, and every other race piling on them seems to disprove that. Also, the protheans were noted as taking a long time to stop. You are assuming that every single dreadnought survived through to now.
Also, the Reapers are split. Their backbone is over Earth, which is listed as being in equal strength. Break the fleet over Earth, and deal them a blow they can never recover. You are seeing it as a war of atrittion over one cycle at a time. It's a war of atrittion agains life itself. One cycle would be bound to break them. And this cycle could deal them a blow they would never be able to shake off.

10. Again, YOU said there wasn't any point to stopping the Reaper takeover of the Citadel, because you KEEP insisting that they demolish everything anyway. I said that you were wrong, and that stopping the Citadel takeover hurt them.

[Dean_the_Young]

3DandBeyond wrote...

The problem is for me that in my game (and I don't think I'm alone) my war assets screen says my chances of winning are even.  A bit later, Anderson says something about wondering what the odds are for defeating the reapers (or some such thing), and I get this overwhelming urge to tell him that I was informed the odds were even, as in 50/50.  For some insanely impossible to beat monsters, and even for other fights (say some wars in human history), those are pretty good odds.  And, someone else says that the reapers are vulnerable (earlier on).  Cohesiveness is more than just a word.  The war asset screen should have said, "you have nearly 12,000 EMS.  So what, you could have a million.  It's still hopeless, moron."  And, my odds never seem to get any better-funny.  I still say those are way better odds then, "it's hopeless, impossible, suicide to try and fight."

Your War Assets screen and Anderson are working on the assumption of the Crucible, though: when it says you have a 50-50 chance, it's saying you have a 50-50 chance of using the Crucible successfully, not that you have a 50-50 chance without the Crucible and that the Crucible just ups your percentage.

It's the same as the 'key locations' comment: while some people have insisted that it means all the homeworlds, 'key locations' are referring to the places that help Hackett continue his war effort to complete the Crucible.