330 réponses à ce sujet

[NM_Che56]

I still see much butthurt from the EC.  Mainly, the Normandy Evac sequence.  The common lament circulates around how Harbinger NOT shooting down the Normandy didn't make sense.  I argue the contrary.

First, we have to remember why Harbinger made a beeline to the beam: To stop anyone from getting to it.  Remember this.  To STOP anyone from getting TO IT.

Now, let's fast forward...Hammer advances on the beam...pew pew pew!  To quote The Crow, "...bang! F**K, I'm Dead"!.  The Normandy comes to evac people AWAY from the area.  That's right, AWAY. 

Think about this for a second: Reapers.  What are they? Essentially, they are machines.  Sure, they have organic stuff in 'em, but they are really just fancy machines.  And like machines, they do not make decisions based on emotions.  By focusing resources on something that isn't a threat at the expense of focusing resources at a still INCOMING threat is illogical. 

"But Master Che", you say, "How does Harbinger know what the Normandy is going to do"?

I propose the following:
1) Shepard's yelling "I need an evac right now".  I'm pretty sure Harby could pick that up with "reaper ears". 
2) The Normandy comes in perpendicular to the beam.  Not flying TO IT.  And then lands, scoops up the injured, lifts up and goes AWAY from the scene.  Not to the beam like everything else its shooting at.


At this point, taking out the Normandy would be nothing more than a gratuitous "F**K YOU B***H".  Something that serves no other purpose but to be spiteful or vengeful.  Something...human. 

See where I'm coming from?

[crimzontearz]

Right, merciless reaper does not kill its nemesis and allows them to retreat for a good couple of minutes politely waiting? Right....no

[Killdren88]

True, but if I remember correctly in the evac scene, we did not here him shooting the soldiers that were still heading to the beam in the background. It made it seem like Harby was just politely waiting until Shepard was done.

[NM_Che56]

crimzontearz wrote...

Right, merciless reaper does not kill its nemesis and allows them to retreat for a good couple of minutes politely waiting? Right....no

Nemesis...that's a human concept based on feelings of vengance and spite...Right....no.

Try again.

[crimzontearz]

Master Che wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Right, merciless reaper does not kill its nemesis and allows them to retreat for a good couple of minutes politely waiting? Right....no

Nemesis...that's a human concept based on feelings of vengance and spite...Right....no.

Try again.

he is responsible for the fall of two capital ships, a destroyer and a hades cannon on top of the foiling of harbinger's plans in ME2


 
logic says you DO NOT let someone that dangerous live

[NM_Che56]

Killdren88 wrote...

True, but if I remember correctly in the evac scene, we did not here him shooting the soldiers that were still heading to the beam in the background. It made it seem like Harby was just politely waiting until Shepard was done.

Explosions at 0:41 and 1:05 in the clip.

[NM_Che56]

crimzontearz wrote...

Master Che wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Right, merciless reaper does not kill its nemesis and allows them to retreat for a good couple of minutes politely waiting? Right....no

Nemesis...that's a human concept based on feelings of vengance and spite...Right....no.

Try again.

he is responsible for the fall of two capital ships, a destroyer and a hades cannon on top of the foiling of harbinger's plans in ME2


logic says you DO NOT let someone that dangerous live

Human logic, or Reaper logic?

[Dark_Caduceus]

A two kilometer super computer, unhindered by faulty emotions, of incredible mathematical power, that can pick up using his "reaper ears" no less what Shepard was saying in a massive chaotic battle can't hit him with his rapid fire laser-thanix-thingy-that-makes-no-sense?

Here's the problem with your "logical reason", in order for it to hold true you need to acknowledge that many other parts of the scene make no sense; so we're back to square one, just with a different problem no less disruptive.

If you want to suppose that Harbinger could pick up on what Shepard was saying fine. Then why didn't he just shoot him down? What, does he have great ears and terrible vision? Nevermind the fact that this is pure supposition not supported in-game? And if this analysis were true then why was he shooting at the gunships?

Basically, your "logical reason" sucks almost as bad as the ending.

[Belisarius25]

Harbinger taunted Shepard repeatedly during ME2, so definitively ruling out the possibility of having some personal grudge because it requires "human logic" doesn't seem particularly persuasive.

Modifié par Belisarius25, 16 janvier 2013 - 05:20 .

[crimzontearz]

Master Che wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Master Che wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Right, merciless reaper does not kill its nemesis and allows them to retreat for a good couple of minutes politely waiting? Right....no

Nemesis...that's a human concept based on feelings of vengance and spite...Right....no.

Try again.

he is responsible for the fall of two capital ships, a destroyer and a hades cannon on top of the foiling of harbinger's plans in ME2


logic says you DO NOT let someone that dangerous live

Human logic, or Reaper logic?

Simple math, he alone caused more reaper casualties than ENTIRE CYCLES.

De Cartes said this better than I could. 1 + 1 = 2 for me and for God

[Brhino]

yeah, did you not play ME2 at all? The icons under your name say you did. Harbinger has a serious hateon for Shepard. He taunts Shepard at every available opportunity. He sends the collectors to Horizon just to get at an associate of Shepard's. He apparently would not shut up about Shepard when talking to his good buddy the Rannoch Reaper. He is a machine, yes, but he still seems capable of emotional response.

Modifié par Brhino, 16 janvier 2013 - 05:24 .

[NM_Che56]

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

A two kilometer super computer, unhindered by faulty emotions, of incredible mathematical power, that can pick up using his "reaper ears" no less what Shepard was saying in a massive chaotic battle can't hit him with his rapid fire laser-thanix-thingy-that-makes-no-sense?

Here's the problem with your "logical reason", in order for it to hold true you need to acknowledge that many other parts of the scene make no sense; so we're back to square one, just with a different problem no less disruptive.

If you want to suppose that Harbinger could pick up on what Shepard was saying fine. Then why didn't he just shoot him down? What, does he have great ears and terrible vision? Nevermind the fact that this is pure supposition not supported in-game? And if this analysis were true then why was he shooting at the gunships?

Basically, your "logical reason" sucks almost as bad as the ending.

Who said anything about vision?  Where did I say Harbinger couldn't hit him?  How is what Shepard said not supported in the game?

I cannot follow your logic.

[Wayning_Star]

The catalyst wants shep to make it to the beam, why hazard a shot at the normandy where shep is just feet away. Shep survives the molten metal shot to make it to the rubble and then to the beam then to the catalyst.. I see a plot thicking there...

[NM_Che56]

Brhino wrote...

yeah, did you not play ME2 at all? The icons under your name say you did. Harbinger has a serious hateon for Shepard. He taunts Shepard at every available opportunity. He sends the collectors to Horizon just to get at an associate of Shepard's. He apparently would not shut up about Shepard when talking to his good buddy the Rannock Reaper. He is a machine, yes, but he still seems capable of emotional response.

Taunts as in "na-na-na-na-na-na" and "you're a boo boo head"? Not quite.  His taunts were more to break Shepard's will to fight by illuminating how feeble his efforts are and that he cannot stop the inevitable. 

Horizon.  One of many human colonies that the Collectors went after in the Terminus system.  Many of which had no associates of Shepard.  So,  I see no direct linkage to Horizon being a target and Ash/Alenko being there. 

[NM_Che56]

Wayning_Star wrote...

The catalyst wants shep to make it to the beam, why hazard a shot at the normandy where shep is just feet away. Shep survives the molten metal shot to make it to the rubble and then to the beam then to the catalyst.. I see a plot thicking there...

I wouldn't go that far.  Why take a chance that Shepard would be killed by the destructive power of the Harby beam and not just clear a path; only taking out others and leaving Sheapard unscathed?

The Reapers and the Catalyst have only one goal: Continue the cycle.

[NM_Che56]

crimzontearz wrote...


Simple math, he alone caused more reaper casualties than ENTIRE CYCLES.

De Cartes said this better than I could. 1 + 1 = 2 for me and for God

That still isn't convincing.  You are using your logic to justify why YOU would go after Shepard based on a presumed, emotion fuled grudge.

[Linkforlife]

Maybe you can explain why the Normandy can even enter Earth's atmosphere when the codex says otherwise, well I suppose the codex has already been smashed to pieces about that with the Firewalker DLC of ME2.

You also got to remember, the IFF only outputs a SIGNAL, it will not mask the visual representation of something, so Harbinger, with his big ugly yellow eyes could see the Normandy. I would imagine Harbinger's eyes would work similar to how the Geth see with their flashlight heads.

[Xellith]

Normandy is shot by harbinger. The ensuing destruction would mean that its entire stores of He3 would ignite. Thereby turning the ground around the beam into an inferno filled with wreckage. Not to mention the Eezo contamination.

Shooting the normandy would be one of the SMART things to do to protect the beam.

Im not even going to go into detail on how the entire scene is retarded.

Modifié par Xellith, 16 janvier 2013 - 05:32 .

[Brhino]

Master Che wrote...

Horizon.  One of many human colonies that the Collectors went after in the Terminus system.  Many of which had no associates of Shepard.  So,  I see no direct linkage to Horizon being a target and Ash/Alenko being there. 

If you want to eliminate the PLOT POINT that the Illusive Man successfully lured the collectors to Horizon because he was able to figure out that they were specifically after Shepard, then feel free I guess but at that point we're talking about your personal headcanon, not the actual plot of the games.

[K2LU533]

The OP is correct, I thought this was common knowledge, not quite sure why people are confused about this?

[Epique Phael767]

A reaper killed two evac shuttles moving away from it in vancouver while we were evacing.

[Belisarius25]

http://masseffect.wi...nger_(Collector)/Battle_Quotes

He sure does a lot of taunting for a machine just trying to "break Shepard's will", especially Shepard-specific taunting, and the Rannoch reaper specifically mentions that Harbinger informed the other reapers about Shepard. There's more to it than simply breaking Shepard's will.

Now, I do tend to agree there are plenty of other targets (all those tanks/ground troops moving up), I just disagree that Harbinger wouldn't have a motivation for targeting Shepard/Shepard's ship and allies specifically. That and the scene is executed very poorly (especially, in the context of this thread, those seconds where the Normandy is hovering in front of Harbinger, who isn't firing).

Modifié par Belisarius25, 16 janvier 2013 - 05:34 .

[Dark_Caduceus]

Master Che wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...

A two kilometer super computer, unhindered by faulty emotions, of incredible mathematical power, that can pick up using his "reaper ears" no less what Shepard was saying in a massive chaotic battle can't hit him with his rapid fire laser-thanix-thingy-that-makes-no-sense?

Here's the problem with your "logical reason", in order for it to hold true you need to acknowledge that many other parts of the scene make no sense; so we're back to square one, just with a different problem no less disruptive.

If you want to suppose that Harbinger could pick up on what Shepard was saying fine. Then why didn't he just shoot him down? What, does he have great ears and terrible vision? Nevermind the fact that this is pure supposition not supported in-game? And if this analysis were true then why was he shooting at the gunships?

Basically, your "logical reason" sucks almost as bad as the ending.

Who said anything about vision?  Where did I say Harbinger couldn't hit him?  How is what Shepard said not supported in the game?

I cannot follow your logic.

Well I'm not surprised you can't follow logic.

I'll try to distill my points.

1. You claim that Harbinger could hear Shepard (this is a supposition, there's no evidence that Reapers can or cannot hear infantry on the ground).
2. If one is to grant you this supposition as true, then you can't really expect Harbinger to not be able to aim his laser correctly, remember he missed Shepard with the beam).
3. He recognized that the Normandy wasn't a thrat, but by the same token, why was he attacking the gunships, even before they got close to him?

[Leem_0001]

Master Che wrote...

I still see much butthurt from the EC.  Mainly, the Normandy Evac sequence.  The common lament circulates around how Harbinger NOT shooting down the Normandy didn't make sense.  I argue the contrary.

First, we have to remember why Harbinger made a beeline to the beam: To stop anyone from getting to it.  Remember this.  To STOP anyone from getting TO IT.

Now, let's fast forward...Hammer advances on the beam...pew pew pew!  To quote The Crow, "...bang! F**K, I'm Dead"!.  The Normandy comes to evac people AWAY from the area.  That's right, AWAY. 

Think about this for a second: Reapers.  What are they? Essentially, they are machines.  Sure, they have organic stuff in 'em, but they are really just fancy machines.  And like machines, they do not make decisions based on emotions.  By focusing resources on something that isn't a threat at the expense of focusing resources at a still INCOMING threat is illogical. 

"But Master Che", you say, "How does Harbinger know what the Normandy is going to do"?

I propose the following:
1) Shepard's yelling "I need an evac right now".  I'm pretty sure Harby could pick that up with "reaper ears". 
2) The Normandy comes in perpendicular to the beam.  Not flying TO IT.  And then lands, scoops up the injured, lifts up and goes AWAY from the scene.  Not to the beam like everything else its shooting at.


At this point, taking out the Normandy would be nothing more than a gratuitous "F**K YOU B***H".  Something that serves no other purpose but to be spiteful or vengeful.  Something...human. 

See where I'm coming from?

So you are saying that Harbinger noticed the Normandy.

He should therefore notice Shepard run to it. He should also know that Shepard poses the biggest threat to him (as proven in previous games and highlighted in Leviathan when we are told the Reapers see Shep as a threat).

An advanced AI should know enough to attack and destroy both in one hit.

[NM_Che56]

Linkforlife wrote...

Maybe you can explain why the Normandy can even enter Earth's atmosphere when the codex says otherwise, well I suppose the codex has already been smashed to pieces about that with the Firewalker DLC of ME2.

You also got to remember, the IFF only outputs a SIGNAL, it will not mask the visual representation of something, so Harbinger, with his big ugly yellow eyes could see the Normandy. I would imagine Harbinger's eyes would work similar to how the Geth see with their flashlight heads.

IFF.  I like that.  Seriously.  That's a good argument.

Windows are structural weaknesses.