Aller au contenu

Photo

Harbinger vs the Normandy: A logical reason for why it wasn't shot down


  • Veuillez vous connecter pour répondre
330 réponses à ce sujet

#26
NM_Che56

NM_Che56
  • Members
  • 6 739 messages

Brhino wrote...

Master Che wrote...

Horizon.  One of many human colonies that the Collectors went after in the Terminus system.  Many of which had no associates of Shepard.  So,  I see no direct linkage to Horizon being a target and Ash/Alenko being there. 



If you want to eliminate the PLOT POINT that the Illusive Man successfully lured the collectors to Horizon because he was able to figure out that they were specifically after Shepard, then feel free I guess but at that point we're talking about your personal headcanon, not the actual plot of the games.


You're going off of the words of TIM, right?

#27
Linkforlife

Linkforlife
  • Members
  • 548 messages

Master Che wrote...

Linkforlife wrote...

Maybe you can explain why the Normandy can even enter Earth's atmosphere when the codex says otherwise, well I suppose the codex has already been smashed to pieces about that with the Firewalker DLC of ME2.

You also got to remember, the IFF only outputs a SIGNAL, it will not mask the visual representation of something, so Harbinger, with his big ugly yellow eyes could see the Normandy. I would imagine Harbinger's eyes would work similar to how the Geth see with their flashlight heads.


IFF.  I like that.  Seriously.  That's a good argument.

Windows are structural weaknesses.  Image IPB


Can't tell if you are actually serious, or if you are trolling.

If I can add another point: the Reaper on Rannoch was able to see Shepard just fine rolling around on the mountain vista, so why would Harbinger be unable to see the Normandy, unless the original Reaper was flawed in some way.

There are also the Reapers that chase the Normandy when you output too many pings when scanning for artifacts, they have no problem seeing the Normandy to chase and destroy it.

Modifié par Linkforlife, 16 janvier 2013 - 05:44 .


#28
crimzontearz

crimzontearz
  • Members
  • 16 789 messages

Master Che wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...


Simple math, he alone caused more reaper casualties than ENTIRE CYCLES.

De Cartes said this better than I could. 1 + 1 = 2 for me and for God


That still isn't convincing.  You are using your logic to justify why YOU would go after Shepard based on a presumed, emotion fuled grudge.

it is not MY logic. If he lets him go chances are he will keep fighting and cause more reaper casualties . Quite simple

#29
Aaleel

Aaleel
  • Members
  • 4 427 messages
Harbinger was doing a fine job shooting makos, foot soldiers and aircraft all at the same time while you were running down the hill.

The only reason the Normandy wasn't shot down is because then Bioware would have had to change everything regarding the Normandy and the crew after that, which would have meant re-writing more of the ending then they wanted to.

Modifié par Aaleel, 16 janvier 2013 - 05:40 .


#30
NM_Che56

NM_Che56
  • Members
  • 6 739 messages

Dark_Caduceus wrote...


Well I'm not surprised you can't follow logic.

I'll try to distill my points.

1. You claim that Harbinger could hear Shepard (this is a supposition, there's no evidence that Reapers can or cannot hear infantry on the ground).
2. If one is to grant you this supposition as true, then you can't really expect Harbinger to not be able to aim his laser correctly, remember he missed Shepard with the beam).
3. He recognized that the Normandy wasn't a thrat, but by the same token, why was he attacking the gunships, even before they got close to him?


I'll ignore your insults and address your points.

1) How did Shepard have a conversation with Reapers if they cannot hear?
2) What in my supposition states anything about aim?  What does hearing have to do with sight? No where did I say anything about "aim" or "sight".  Are you recalling some other post?  That's why I cannot follow you.
3) You mean the gunships that were flying at him and shooting their cannons at him?

Modifié par Master Che, 16 janvier 2013 - 05:40 .


#31
NM_Che56

NM_Che56
  • Members
  • 6 739 messages

crimzontearz wrote...

Master Che wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...


Simple math, he alone caused more reaper casualties than ENTIRE CYCLES.

De Cartes said this better than I could. 1 + 1 = 2 for me and for God


That still isn't convincing.  You are using your logic to justify why YOU would go after Shepard based on a presumed, emotion fuled grudge.

it is not MY logic. If he lets him go chances are he will keep fighting and cause more reaper casualties . Quite simple


More reaper casualties...so you assume that Reapers care about each other and that they have doubts as to whether or not the cycle will continue?

#32
NM_Che56

NM_Che56
  • Members
  • 6 739 messages

Aaleel wrote...

Harbinger was doing a fine job shooting makos, foot soldiers and aircraft all at the same time while you were running down the hill.

The only reason the Normandy wasn't shot down is because then Bioware would have had to change everything regarding the Normandy and the crew after that, which would have meant re-writing more of the ending then they wanted to.


The only reason? What's wrong with the one I gave or the Reaper IFF making Normandy unrecognizable as a threat?

#33
NM_Che56

NM_Che56
  • Members
  • 6 739 messages

Linkforlife wrote...

Master Che wrote...

Linkforlife wrote...

Maybe you can explain why the Normandy can even enter Earth's atmosphere when the codex says otherwise, well I suppose the codex has already been smashed to pieces about that with the Firewalker DLC of ME2.

You also got to remember, the IFF only outputs a SIGNAL, it will not mask the visual representation of something, so Harbinger, with his big ugly yellow eyes could see the Normandy. I would imagine Harbinger's eyes would work similar to how the Geth see with their flashlight heads.


IFF.  I like that.  Seriously.  That's a good argument.

Windows are structural weaknesses.  Image IPB


Can't tell if you are actually serious, or if you are trolling.

If I can add another point: the Reaper on Rannoch was able to see Shepard just fine rolling around on the mountain vista, so why would Harbinger be unable to see the Normandy, unless the original Reaper was flawed in some way.


Not trolling.  Serious.  I like the Reaper IFF connection.

No where in my post did I say Reapers were blind.

Where is this coming from?  Image IPB

And the "structural weaknesses" thing was a joke because you brought up the Geth.  Nothing more.

#34
crimzontearz

crimzontearz
  • Members
  • 16 789 messages

Master Che wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Master Che wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...


Simple math, he alone caused more reaper casualties than ENTIRE CYCLES.

De Cartes said this better than I could. 1 + 1 = 2 for me and for God


That still isn't convincing.  You are using your logic to justify why YOU would go after Shepard based on a presumed, emotion fuled grudge.

it is not MY logic. If he lets him go chances are he will keep fighting and cause more reaper casualties . Quite simple


More reaper casualties...so you assume that Reapers care about each other and that they have doubts as to whether or not the cycle will continue?

I believe they do not waste resources needlessly or take hubris-induced risks

#35
NM_Che56

NM_Che56
  • Members
  • 6 739 messages

Epique Phael767 wrote...

A reaper killed two evac shuttles moving away from it in vancouver while we were evacing.


True.  I'm not saying Reapers show mercy.

The context behind the two events were different, too.

#36
Linkforlife

Linkforlife
  • Members
  • 548 messages

Master Che wrote...

Linkforlife wrote...

Master Che wrote...

Linkforlife wrote...

Maybe you can explain why the Normandy can even enter Earth's atmosphere when the codex says otherwise, well I suppose the codex has already been smashed to pieces about that with the Firewalker DLC of ME2.

You also got to remember, the IFF only outputs a SIGNAL, it will not mask the visual representation of something, so Harbinger, with his big ugly yellow eyes could see the Normandy. I would imagine Harbinger's eyes would work similar to how the Geth see with their flashlight heads.


IFF.  I like that.  Seriously.  That's a good argument.

Windows are structural weaknesses.  Image IPB


Can't tell if you are actually serious, or if you are trolling.

If I can add another point: the Reaper on Rannoch was able to see Shepard just fine rolling around on the mountain vista, so why would Harbinger be unable to see the Normandy, unless the original Reaper was flawed in some way.


Not trolling.  Serious.  I like the Reaper IFF connection.

No where in my post did I say Reapers were blind.

Where is this coming from?  Image IPB

And the "structural weaknesses" thing was a joke because you brought up the Geth.  Nothing more.


I am not saying the Reapers are blind either, but the Reaper IFF does not save the Normandy from the Reapers that try to destroy it when you are trying to gather artifacts after pinging too many times.

#37
IMNOTCRAZYiminsane

IMNOTCRAZYiminsane
  • Members
  • 450 messages
Why did Shepard call the Normandy to pick up 2 people

#38
Fawx9

Fawx9
  • Members
  • 1 134 messages

Master Che wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Harbinger was doing a fine job shooting makos, foot soldiers and aircraft all at the same time while you were running down the hill.

The only reason the Normandy wasn't shot down is because then Bioware would have had to change everything regarding the Normandy and the crew after that, which would have meant re-writing more of the ending then they wanted to.


The only reason? What's wrong with the one I gave or the Reaper IFF making Normandy unrecognizable as a threat?

Becuase the IFF doesn't do that.

The only purpose of it is to let you access tuning controls on the Omega Relay, so that you don't kill yourself during the jump. 

If it did mask you, why do reapers chase you after you stopped scanning, why do collectors and their pet space squids know about you as soon as you leave the Relay?

The only way that scene makes sense is if Harby is telepathic and realizes no one is planning to rush out of the Normandy, either on foot or in a stored Mako/Hammerhead. Why he would let THAT ship go is unknown other than the need for later scenes in the ending. 

#39
NM_Che56

NM_Che56
  • Members
  • 6 739 messages

crimzontearz wrote...

Master Che wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Master Che wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...


Simple math, he alone caused more reaper casualties than ENTIRE CYCLES.

De Cartes said this better than I could. 1 + 1 = 2 for me and for God


That still isn't convincing.  You are using your logic to justify why YOU would go after Shepard based on a presumed, emotion fuled grudge.

it is not MY logic. If he lets him go chances are he will keep fighting and cause more reaper casualties . Quite simple


More reaper casualties...so you assume that Reapers care about each other and that they have doubts as to whether or not the cycle will continue?

I believe they do not waste resources needlessly or take hubris-induced risks


Bringing me back to my point:

Waste resource: Shot at a target that is leaving and no longer threatens your objective instead of at those that do.
Hubris induced risk: Shooting at the Normandy and Shepard because of a vendetta while taking your attention and resources away from an advancing ground force.

#40
Dark_Caduceus

Dark_Caduceus
  • Members
  • 3 305 messages

Master Che wrote...

Dark_Caduceus wrote...


Well I'm not surprised you can't follow logic.

I'll try to distill my points.

1. You claim that Harbinger could hear Shepard (this is a supposition, there's no evidence that Reapers can or cannot hear infantry on the ground).
2. If one is to grant you this supposition as true, then you can't really expect Harbinger to not be able to aim his laser correctly, remember he missed Shepard with the beam).
3. He recognized that the Normandy wasn't a thrat, but by the same token, why was he attacking the gunships, even before they got close to him?


I'll ignore your insults and address your points.

1) How did Shepard have a conversation with Reapers if they cannot hear?
2) What in my supposition states anything about aim?  What does hearing have to do with sight? No where did I say anything about "aim" or "sight".  Are you recalling some other post?  That's why I cannot follow you.
3) You mean the gunships that were flying at him and shooting their cannons at him?


When did Shepard have a conversation with Reapers? He spoke to Sovereign in Mass Effect 1, sort of, but that's a moot point because: A. Mass Effect 1 is so far detached from Mass Effect 3 as to make to difference and B. He was speaking to a holographic projection, presumably from a console designed for such communication. He wasn't in a huge chatoic battle where his words were just picked up by "reaper ears".

You're supposing that Harbinger can "hear" Shepard, there's no basis for believing this. But if you're going to assume, for no reason, that Harbinger can hear Shepard in a chaotic battle, then I'm going to assume, without reason, that Harbinger's targetting system is good enough to actually hit Shepard (which it weasn;t because Harbinger missed).

Harbinger couldn't have been concerned about the gunships shgooting at him, because it invalidates your point about the Normandy not being a threat. First you claimed that the soldiers running for the conduit are the threat that Harbinger is trying to end. If this were the case why fire at the gunships? If Harbinger feared they were an actual risk to him, then why did he ignore the Normandy? Remember, the Normandy is a state of the art frigate, designed for ship-to-ship combat, which has likely been upgraded even behyond normal frigates, but he directs his fire at gunships, designed for shooting infantry and small vehicles? What? I thought Harbinger was 100% logic, all the time.

Edit: I wasn't attempting to insult you when I said i'm unsurprised you don;t follow logic. I was jsut being honest, given what you've posted thus far I'm literally unsurprised that you have difficulty following a rational stream of thought. I apologize.

Modifié par Dark_Caduceus, 16 janvier 2013 - 05:50 .


#41
NM_Che56

NM_Che56
  • Members
  • 6 739 messages

Fawx9 wrote...

Master Che wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

Harbinger was doing a fine job shooting makos, foot soldiers and aircraft all at the same time while you were running down the hill.

The only reason the Normandy wasn't shot down is because then Bioware would have had to change everything regarding the Normandy and the crew after that, which would have meant re-writing more of the ending then they wanted to.


The only reason? What's wrong with the one I gave or the Reaper IFF making Normandy unrecognizable as a threat?

Becuase the IFF doesn't do that.

The only purpose of it is to let you access tuning controls on the Omega Relay, so that you don't kill yourself during the jump. 

If it did mask you, why do reapers chase you after you stopped scanning, why do collectors and their pet space squids know about you as soon as you leave the Relay?

The only way that scene makes sense is if Harby is telepathic and realizes no one is planning to rush out of the Normandy, either on foot or in a stored Mako/Hammerhead. Why he would let THAT ship go is unknown other than the need for later scenes in the ending. 


Good point.

#42
Brhino

Brhino
  • Members
  • 421 messages

Master Che wrote...

Brhino wrote...

Master Che wrote...

Horizon.  One of many human colonies that the Collectors went after in the Terminus system.  Many of which had no associates of Shepard.  So,  I see no direct linkage to Horizon being a target and Ash/Alenko being there. 



If you want to eliminate the PLOT POINT that the Illusive Man successfully lured the collectors to Horizon because he was able to figure out that they were specifically after Shepard, then feel free I guess but at that point we're talking about your personal headcanon, not the actual plot of the games.


You're going off of the words of TIM, right?


I'm going off the freaking PLOT.  If you're saying that the reapers hitting horizon was just a coincidence and had nothing to do with the VS being there then you are literally picking and chosing which parts of the plot suit your theory and which don't, and there's no way anyone can argue with you.

#43
crimzontearz

crimzontearz
  • Members
  • 16 789 messages

Master Che wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Master Che wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Master Che wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...


Simple math, he alone caused more reaper casualties than ENTIRE CYCLES.

De Cartes said this better than I could. 1 + 1 = 2 for me and for God


That still isn't convincing.  You are using your logic to justify why YOU would go after Shepard based on a presumed, emotion fuled grudge.

it is not MY logic. If he lets him go chances are he will keep fighting and cause more reaper casualties . Quite simple


More reaper casualties...so you assume that Reapers care about each other and that they have doubts as to whether or not the cycle will continue?

I believe they do not waste resources needlessly or take hubris-induced risks


Bringing me back to my point:

Waste resource: Shot at a target that is leaving and no longer threatens your objective instead of at those that do.
Hubris induced risk: Shooting at the Normandy and Shepard because of a vendetta while taking your attention and resources away from an advancing ground force.

you are assuming that in the two full minutes he had he could not to both

#44
WARLOK028

WARLOK028
  • Members
  • 3 messages
What about Sovereigns Reaper code that is part of EDI, could that help to explain Harbingers lack of interest in the Normandy?

#45
Linkforlife

Linkforlife
  • Members
  • 548 messages

WARLOK028 wrote...

What about Sovereigns Reaper code that is part of EDI, could that help to explain Harbingers lack of interest in the Normandy?


That doesn't explain why the Reapers chase the Normandy with the intent to destroy it when you output too many pings while hunting for artifacts.

#46
NM_Che56

NM_Che56
  • Members
  • 6 739 messages

Dark_Caduceus wrote...


When did Shepard have a conversation with Reapers? He spoke to Sovereign in Mass Effect 1, sort of, but that's a moot point because: A. Mass Effect 1 is so far detached from Mass Effect 3 as to make to difference and B. He was speaking to a holographic projection, presumably from a console designed for such communication. He wasn't in a huge chatoic battle where his words were just picked up by "reaper ears".

You're supposing that Harbinger can "hear" Shepard, there's no basis for believing this. But if you're going to assume, for no reason, that Harbinger can hear Shepard in a chaotic battle, then I'm going to assume, without reason, that Harbinger's targetting system is good enough to actually hit Shepard (which it weasn;t because Harbinger missed).

Harbinger couldn't have been concerned about the gunships shgooting at him, because it invalidates your point about the Normandy not being a threat. First you claimed that the soldiers running for the conduit are the threat that Harbinger is trying to end. If this were the case why fire at the gunships? If Harbinger feared they were an actual risk to him, then why did he ignore the Normandy? Remember, the Normandy is a state of the art frigate, designed for ship-to-ship combat, which has likely been upgraded even behyond normal frigates, but he directs his fire at gunships, designed for shooting infantry and small vehicles? What? I thought Harbinger was 100% logic, all the time.

Edit: I wasn't attempting to insult you when I said i'm unsurprised you don;t follow logic. I was jsut being honest, given what you've posted thus far I'm literally unsurprised that you have difficulty following a rational stream of thought. I apologize.


+2 dmg for backhanded apology.  Don't apologize.  It doesn't seem to be something you're inclined to give.


As for conversation with a reaper...

Rannoch.  The Reaper destroyer.

Point A: It doesn't change the fact that he spoke to Sovereign.
Point B: I see what you're saying.  Like a "hearing aid".

Point B could be used to describe the scenario in The Arrival where you speak to Harby's hologram.  However, Shepard did communicate with that reaper on Rannoch without the assistance of a hologram.  So, I could conclude, still, that reapers can hear.

Gunships: See 0:33.  .  Bye bye gunship.  no more birds in the sky after the Normandy leaves.

#47
NM_Che56

NM_Che56
  • Members
  • 6 739 messages

Brhino wrote...


I'm going off the freaking PLOT.  If you're saying that the reapers hitting horizon was just a coincidence and had nothing to do with the VS being there then you are literally picking and chosing which parts of the plot suit your theory and which don't, and there's no way anyone can argue with you.


In the plot regarding horizon, who tells Shepard that Ash/Alenko's presence was the reason?  Please answer this. 

#48
MegaIllusiveMan

MegaIllusiveMan
  • Members
  • 4 440 messages
Or Harbinger was recharging :)

Yes, I don't like the IT. Or is Uncle H Recharging or what Master Che said

#49
archangel1996

archangel1996
  • Members
  • 1 263 messages
Harbinger shoots the Normandy, the Normandy explodes, everyone running at the beam dies, simply as that
But then again, why dind't it shoot them down when Shep was there with them? I mean before he called the Normandy? All it takes is one shot and 1 second, bye bye 3 primary targets
And then again why is the beam close? Oh right the corpses....Reaper...MUST....CLEAN
And then again, why didn't harbi kill SHep in the non evac scene? Shep sits there for 5 mintues looking at his death friends and harbinger does nothing :D
And then again, why is Harbinegr alone at the beam? The reapers were all on Earth before the attack and just one of them stayed behind to protect it? Two or even three were too many i guess, BW can't explain this, figure 2-3 Reapers sitting their asses doing nothing :D
The bottom line is: Harbinger is a gentlereaper

#50
Brhino

Brhino
  • Members
  • 421 messages

Master Che wrote...

Brhino wrote...


I'm going off the freaking PLOT.  If you're saying that the reapers hitting horizon was just a coincidence and had nothing to do with the VS being there then you are literally picking and chosing which parts of the plot suit your theory and which don't, and there's no way anyone can argue with you.


In the plot regarding horizon, who tells Shepard that Ash/Alenko's presence was the reason?  Please answer this. 


The Illusive Man, obviously.  But there is absolutely not a single shred of evidence suggested anywhere in any of the game or other lore that suggests that it's not true.  For that matter, does the Illusive Man ever lie to Shepard?  I submit that he does not.  He sometimes withholds information and he operates with his own brand of logic that Shepard may or may not agree with, but he never tells Shepard something that is provably false.  That the collectors were lured to Horizon by the Illusive Man's deliberate leaks about Shepard and the presence of Virmire Survivor is not something that you have any logical basis to question, unless you're giving yourself license to question every part of the plot as not what it seems, in which case debating is pointless.