330 réponses à ce sujet

[Zardoc]

Stop trying to make sense of something that makes no sense.

[Han Shot First]

Zardoc wrote...

Stop trying to make sense of something that makes no sense.

It trumps mindless rage.

Besides, the scene does actually make sense.

There are elements in all of three Mass Effect games that warrant some criticism, but I don't see this scene as being one of them. The complaints about the evac scene can be filed under the heading of 'ridiculous BSN nitpicking.'

[111987]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

111987 wrote...
They got through the Relay because as you said yourself, fooling a Relay is far easier than foooling a Reaper.

And yes, I know Reapers can still 'see' the Normandy, but destroying it immediately doesn't have to be the first conclusion Harbinger reaches. It's not too much of a stretch to say, for example, that the Reapers have appropriated organic ships for their troops throughout the war.

Why wouldn't it be? Destroying the Normandy right there and then not only helps secure the beam by killing/disrupting the forces moving on it, but also removes one of the most effective warships we have.

Plus compared to an actual Reaper, the Normandy can't haul nearly a fraction the number of troops a Reaper can.

There is no good, in-universe, reasoning for Harbinger to simply "let" the Normandy get away from spitting distance.

The in-universe explanation is that EDI has the capability of tricking Reapers into believing it is a Reaper, and/or the Normandy has stealth technology.

[Maxster_]

[quote]Han Shot First wrote...

[quote]Maxster_ wrote...

[quote]Han Shot First wrote...

I agree with the OP.

From a military point of view Harbinger not firing on the Normandy makes perfect sense. The Normandy posed absolutely no threat whatsoever to Harbinger or the Reapers, and if the Normandy had attempted to engage Harbinger it is lucky if it would have even scratched its paint. The Normandy was totally outclassed.
[/quote]
From a military point of view Harbringer not turning off the beam, or not using his main gun makes absolutely no sense.


[/quote]

Based on what exactly? Your head canon about how Harbinger's main gun and targeting systems work?
[/quote]
Lol.
Therefore your headcanon now stronger than game's canon?
That gun used by reapers in space combat and orbital bombardment. As is for any dreadnought in any fleet.
This is main weapon of all dreadnoughts, reapers included.
I like how you are demonstrating that you don't give a damn about ME lore.
[quote]
We know next to nothing about how Harbinger's weaponry functions. The codex entries are rather vague and sparse on details.
[/quote]
We know enough. It is used in precise orbital bombardment of an military installations.
As is for every dreadnought in ME.
It also used in space combat, which requires a lot more precision due to a greater range.
You just demonstrating again that you ignoring ME lore.
[quote]
How do we know that the weapons being fired by Harbinger during the beam rush scene were in fact the betters tools for that particular task, due to both the capabilities and limitations of both weapons systems?
[/quote]
We know that it is used in orbital bombardment. Therefore, this entire sequence with descending Harbringer makes absolutely no sense.
[quote]
I'll give you a real world example.

A shell fired by 155mm howitzer is much more destructive than rounds fired by a medium machine gun firing 7.62mm rounds. That doesn't however, mean that a 155mm howitzer is a better direct fire weapon against dismounted infantry than a machine gun that fires 7.62 mm rounds. In fact, the opposite is true.
[/quote]
You just demonstrating your ignorance again.
Artillery is meant for indirect fire, especially howitzers.
And reapers using their kinetic weapons in orbital bombardment.

Your example is laughable. So, a howitzer squad, for some unknown reasons, decided to move from his position to attack some dismounted infantry using assault rifles.
So much for a "military point of view"



[quote]
[quote]Maxster_ wrote...

[quote]Han Shot First wrote...

Second, Harbinger's objective was to stop the ground team from getting any personnel to the beam. The tanks, dismounted infantry, and the gunships providing air support were the real threat. Any one from the ground team that made it to the beam could potentially doom the Reapers. At the time the ground time posed a very serious threat to the Reapers, unlike the Normandy, which posed none.
[/quote]
One shot from his main gun - and entire offesive is instantly annihilated.
And no one would got to the beam.
They were never a threat, one shot - and all dead instantly.[/quote]

Refer to what I posted above on the lack of knowledge regarding Reaper weapon and targeting capabilities and limitations, and needing head canon to fill in gaps.
[/quote]
I don't care if you ignored lore to make your nonsensical headcanon work.
[quote]
Also destroying the Normandy in no way guarantees that you wipe out the ground team. If the destruction of the Normandy SR1 was anything to go by, the destruction of the SR2 would not have been that dramatic. At best it would have killed and wounded some people in the immediate vicinity, but it certainly wouldn't have eliminated the entire ground team. And it would have been a distraction that potentially buys enough time for someone to make it to the beam.
[/quote]
Explosion of a Cruiser in earth:intro. SR-2 have roughly same size drive core.
Anyway, one shot of 400kt tnt equivalent kinetic impact explosion is enough to glass entire area with no survivors.

[quote]
[quote]Maxster_ wrote...

[quote]Han Shot First wrote...

Finally, the Normandy was involved in a medevac and was not directly assisting the ground push in any way.
[/quote]
Yeah, Joker reported to Harbringer about that medevac. That is how Harbringer knew that there would be medevac. And that is why he didn't used his main gun.
He is very polite and prefer fair play.
[/quote]

Common sense.
[/quote]
Which you lack.
[quote]
The Normandy deployed to the rear and was not flying towards Harbinger in an aggressive manor. It would not been diffidcult to deduce that it was conducting a medevac, just as in a real world combat situation it would not be difficult to deduce that helos were conducting a medevac if they were not engaging you and deploying in your enemy's rear.
[/quote]
In real world situations, howitzers squads don't deliberately dismount to engage enemy soldiers with handguns.
I like how you making up nonsensical explanations, and mark them as "real world examples".


[quote]
[quote]Maxster_ wrote...


[quote]Han Shot First wrote...



In short, the ground time was a priority target. The Normandy was not.

Harbinger had his priorities in order.[/quote]
In short, you still trying to defend that garbage scene with more nonsense than already in it.

[/quote]

No I'm defending that scene with a little thing called common sense, something in short supply on the BSN, and basing my assertions on my own experiences in the military.[/quote]
No, your defense in unrelated to common sense.
You are just ignoring ingame information in favor of your nonsensical headcanon, designed to make sense from utterly nonsensical scene.
Given your "examples", you never had any experience in the military.

[deatharmonic]

Han Shot First wrote...


Also destroying the Normandy in no way guarantees that you wipe out the ground team. If the destruction of the Normandy SR1 was anything to go by, the destruction of the SR2 would not have been that dramatic. At best it would have killed and wounded some people in the immediate vicinity, but it certainly wouldn't have eliminated the entire ground team. And it would have been a distraction that potentially buys enough time for someone to make it to the beam.

What are you basing that on? The SR1 made a pretty damn big bang. I don't know how you can deduce the force of the blast from the SR2's destruction by looking at the SR1, and furthermore say it wouldn't be as much.

Modifié par deatharmonic, 16 janvier 2013 - 10:49 .

[Maxster_]

Han Shot First wrote...

Zardoc wrote...

Stop trying to make sense of something that makes no sense.

It trumps mindless rage.

Besides, the scene does actually make sense.

There are elements in all of three Mass Effect games that warrant some criticism, but I don't see this scene as being one of them. The complaints about the evac scene can be filed under the heading of 'ridiculous BSN nitpicking.'

You have no idea about ME lore. Especially on military tactics, spaceships and kinetic weapons. Or just ignoring everything that doesn't fit your bias. Whatever.
Evacuation scene is pure garbage, it makes absolutely no sense. It is ooc for Shepard, squad and Joker.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Maxster_ wrote...

De1ta G wrote...

Why does this scene matter so freakin much? I can understand discussing it. What's the point of these forums if not for discussing. But this just keeps getting brought up over and over again as if every little detail about the scene must be analyzed thoroughly until it is determined whether or not scene is logical. It being logical is irrelevant. How many times have you watched a movie and during a certain scene though "That wouldn't happen."? It's fiction, it isn't suppose to be real. It's suppose to be relatively realistic, but not everything that happens is going to be perfectly logical.

Scenes like those are placed for numerous reasons. In this case it was to way to show not only how your squad got back onto the Normandy, but also included a touching, final goodbye scene with Shepard's romance.

What would you rather know? Why Harbinger didn't fire on the Normandy or how did your squad manage to get back on the Normandy?

What a pathetic excuse for a garbage writing.
Guess you have no idea what term "fiction" even means. I'm not even saying about "science fiction".

Oh, come on Maxster, maybe Harbinger was touched

Harbinger: :sniff: "I must *sniff* make note of where they are *sniff* so they end up together *sniff* in the same reaper."

Starbrat: "Liara is an Asari! She can't go in that one."

Harbinger: "You should see them. *sniff* Make an exception. Just this once. Please?"

Starbrat: "Oh, okay. (fingers crossed) Just make sure Shepard gets up here."

Harbinger: "Thanks."

Harby was once an organic species you know.

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 16 janvier 2013 - 11:07 .

[JasonShepard]

I think we can assume that, for whatever reason, the Reapers did not want the Citadel Beam shut down or damaged, otherwise they would have done so. Who knows, perhaps it takes a long time to set up, and in their arrogance the Reapers don't want to waste time after the battle reactivating/repairing it. (As Paragon Shepard points out in the FOB, chatting to EDI, the Reapers are definitely acting arrogantly. A single Sovereign class could just drop down and flatten the FOB, after all.)

As a result, if (as I think we can also assume) blowing up the SR2 would make an explosion larger than that of the SR1 (which was itself fairly impressive), then they actually wouldn't want to do it.

That's one explanation, anyway. Other explanations include jamming from the beam and/or EDI, stealth systems, the fact that Harbinger already has a lot to deal with, and the possibility that Harbinger's weapons may not be up to piercing the Normandy's shields in this situation. Remember that, because of it's size, a Reaper has to divert a considerable amount of power to maintaining a Mass Effect field to counteract a planet's gravity, thus Harby's weapon systems would not be at full strength. This may also explain how Shepard survives.

[survivor_686]

In response to OP:

No disrespect, but it seems that you have to use a large dosage of head-canon, just to make the scene logical.

Might I propose an alternate idea? Harbinger's aim is affected by the beam from London to the Citadel. Explains how you clearly misses Shepard getting up, failed to incinerate Shepard at near range and couldn't target the Normandy (or perhaps its stealth system was up?).

[survivor_686]

Or maybe Harbinger is a gentleman and a romantic at heart.

[legion999]

deatharmonic wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...


Also destroying the Normandy in no way guarantees that you wipe out the ground team. If the destruction of the Normandy SR1 was anything to go by, the destruction of the SR2 would not have been that dramatic. At best it would have killed and wounded some people in the immediate vicinity, but it certainly wouldn't have eliminated the entire ground team. And it would have been a distraction that potentially buys enough time for someone to make it to the beam.

What are you basing that on? The SR1 made a pretty damn big bang. I don't know how you can deduce the force of the blast from the SR2's destruction by looking at the SR1, and furthermore say it wouldn't be as much.

Also wasn't the SR1 in space? Wouldn't an explosion be much smaller than one in atmosphere?

[Xellith]

legion999 wrote...

deatharmonic wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...


Also destroying the Normandy in no way guarantees that you wipe out the ground team. If the destruction of the Normandy SR1 was anything to go by, the destruction of the SR2 would not have been that dramatic. At best it would have killed and wounded some people in the immediate vicinity, but it certainly wouldn't have eliminated the entire ground team. And it would have been a distraction that potentially buys enough time for someone to make it to the beam.

What are you basing that on? The SR1 made a pretty damn big bang. I don't know how you can deduce the force of the blast from the SR2's destruction by looking at the SR1, and furthermore say it wouldn't be as much.

Also wasn't the SR1 in space? Wouldn't an explosion be much smaller than one in atmosphere?

Explosions in space are generally smaller than inside atmospheres.  Nuclear bombs for instance are pretty pathetic in space.  The shockwave through the air itself would be dangerous to those nearby.  Hell look at the start of the game.  That cruiser is taken out by a reaper.  Shepard is knocked back by the explosion - an explosion thats a mile or so away.  And the Nomandy SR2 is TWICE as large as the regular Normandy.  (I think its twice.. its definitely bigger).

So you have exploding He3 fueltanks.  This in itself would prolly flatten the immediate area.  If that doesnt happen then you still have a huge explosion that would kill those in the immediate area, along with burning wreckage now blocking Mako's and other ground troops.

Not shooting the Normandy down was just silly.  There is no "logic" behind it.  The writers commited to a series of events and then had to show them playing out - despite them being stupid.  Anyone who thinks the scene is logical and wonderful needs to take off those beer goggles.

Modifié par Xellith, 16 janvier 2013 - 11:18 .

[Aaleel]

I mean if this isn't saying "C'mon I dare you to shoot me" I don't know what is.



Harbinger was multi tasking pretty damn good when you were running down the hill hitting ariel vehicles, makos, and soldiers on foot. I mean not even a pot shot.

I understand from Bioware's perspective because they would have had to redo everything involving the Normandy and the crew from the original ending when they were already trying to explain how the squadmates ended up on the Normandy in the first place.

But from a common sense perspective it doesn't make a lick of sense why the Normandy wasn't shot down.

[Maxster_]

JasonShepard wrote...

I think we can assume that, for whatever reason, the Reapers did not want the Citadel Beam shut down or damaged, otherwise they would have done so.

So, scene makes sense, because it makes no sense.

Who knows, perhaps it takes a long time to set up, and in their arrogance the Reapers don't want to waste time after the battle reactivating/repairing it. (As Paragon Shepard points out in the FOB, chatting to EDI, the Reapers are definitely acting arrogantly. A single Sovereign class could just drop down and flatten the FOB, after all.)

Magic beam is an asspull. It have no place in the lore. How can something magical be damaged by conventional weaponry? Anyway, you have no idea what beam is, it serves only purpose - to connect Citadel to Earth, because of that nonsense "Take back Earth".
Also, they turning beam on and off in cutscenes.
And, making a several times contrived scenario, just to make sense out of pure nonsense.. Well, that does show quality(none) of their work.
Anyway, to assume that reapers can not turn their own beam off, is a pure asspull.

As a result, if (as I think we can also assume) blowing up the SR2 would make an explosion larger than that of the SR1 (which was itself fairly impressive), then they actually wouldn't want to do it.

So, they contrively didn't turn off the beam, then they contrively didn't annihilated entire assault, and now they contively just don't want to destroy Normandy, because reasons.

That's one explanation, anyway. Other explanations include jamming from the beam and/or EDI, stealth systems, the fact that Harbinger already has a lot to deal with, and the possibility that Harbinger's weapons may not be up to piercing the Normandy's shields in this situation.

Just more nonsense.

Remember that, because of it's size, a Reaper has to divert a considerable amount of power to maintaining a Mass Effect field to counteract a planet's gravity, thus Harby's weapon systems would not be at full strength. This may also explain how Shepard survives.

So, they suddenly can't turn off the beam, suddenly can not damage it, for some unknown reason didn't want to destroy Normandy, and now, suddenly they are also weakened.

I like your style of "explanations".
- Why does this pig fly?
-Because it is a flying pig!

[Ticonderoga117]

Han Shot First wrote...

I agree with the OP.

From a military point of view Harbinger not firing on the Normandy makes perfect sense. The Normandy posed absolutely no threat whatsoever to Harbinger or the Reapers, and if the Normandy had attempted to engage Harbinger it is lucky if it would have even scratched its paint. The Normandy was totally outclassed.

When on a planet, a Reaper's shield is at a MUCH LOWER strength. The Normandy, if Joker and EDI weren't morons, could've hit Harby right in the ME core and stopped him cold.

Oh, and then there's the whole "Take out the Normandy, and completely screw over the ground attack" angle.

From a military point of view, both sides were completely and utterly stupid.

[Maxster_]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

De1ta G wrote...

Why does this scene matter so freakin much? I can understand discussing it. What's the point of these forums if not for discussing. But this just keeps getting brought up over and over again as if every little detail about the scene must be analyzed thoroughly until it is determined whether or not scene is logical. It being logical is irrelevant. How many times have you watched a movie and during a certain scene though "That wouldn't happen."? It's fiction, it isn't suppose to be real. It's suppose to be relatively realistic, but not everything that happens is going to be perfectly logical.

Scenes like those are placed for numerous reasons. In this case it was to way to show not only how your squad got back onto the Normandy, but also included a touching, final goodbye scene with Shepard's romance.

What would you rather know? Why Harbinger didn't fire on the Normandy or how did your squad manage to get back on the Normandy?

What a pathetic excuse for a garbage writing.
Guess you have no idea what term "fiction" even means. I'm not even saying about "science fiction".

Oh, come on Maxster, maybe Harbinger was touched

Harbinger: :sniff: "I must *sniff* make note of where they are *sniff* so they end up together *sniff* in the same reaper."

Starbrat: "Liara is an Asari! She can't go in that one."

Harbinger: "You should see them. *sniff* Make an exception. Just this once. Please?"

Starbrat: "Oh, okay. (fingers crossed) Just make sure Shepard gets up here."

Harbinger: "Thanks."

Harby was once an organic species you know.

In that case, Harbringer just wanted Shepard to be alive. And everything suddenly became clear

[Xellith]

simfamSP wrote...

People also forget the whole "Serve us" crap Harbinger pulled when he left the scene in the EC. I think it was not his intention to murder Shep.

No.  He didnt say serve us.  Stop spreading misinformation please.

[Ticonderoga117]

Aaleel wrote...

I mean if this isn't saying "C'mon I dare you to shoot me" I don't know what is.



Harbinger was multi tasking pretty damn good when you were running down the hill hitting ariel vehicles, makos, and soldiers on foot. I mean not even a pot shot.

I understand from Bioware's perspective because they would have had to redo everything involving the Normandy and the crew from the original ending when they were already trying to explain how the squadmates ended up on the Normandy in the first place.

But from a common sense perspective it doesn't make a lick of sense why the Normandy wasn't shot down.

So, the solution is simple... USE A SHUTTLE. Ta-da! Fixed.
-No need to worry about timing, there were plenty of shuttles when we landed.
-No need to worry about why Harby doesn't fire on the shuttle, it truly is not a threat and destroying it means diddly.
-No need to worry about how the squadmates got on the Normandy, it's a shuttle.

It still begs the question why anyone is leaving at all, but if we MUST have Shepard alone because to hell with orders and what the squadies want, then oh well. At least now it's not hair pulling stupid.

[jstme]

Han Shot First wrote...
Common sense.
The Normandy deployed to the rear and was not flying towards Harbinger in an aggressive manor. It would not been diffidcult to deduce that it was conducting a medevac, just as in a real world combat situation it would not be difficult to deduce that helos were conducting a medevac if they were not engaging you and deploying in your enemy's rear.
......
No I'm defending that scene with a little thing called common sense, something in short supply on the BSN, and basing my assertions on my own experiences in the military.

Normandy is not been deployed to the rear. Neither it is flying in non-agressive manor - whatever it is.
It is an armed spaceship not designed for medevacs, with well trained crew aboar,arriving at the front line at enormous speed.

I am pretty sure that in combat and under orders prioritising not allowing foot soldiers into your defensive perimiter if you suddenly notice an enemy Black Hawk approaching in whatever you consider tactcally not an agressive manor,you would not allow it peacefully land right in front of you.
Common sense.  

[legion999]

Xellith wrote...

legion999 wrote...
Also wasn't the SR1 in space? Wouldn't an explosion be much smaller than one in atmosphere?

Explosions in space are generally smaller than inside atmospheres.  Nuclear bombs for instance are pretty pathetic in space.  The shockwave through the air itself would be dangerous to those nearby.  Hell look at the start of the game.  That cruiser is taken out by a reaper.  Shepard is knocked back by the explosion - an explosion thats a mile or so away.  And the Nomandy SR2 is TWICE as large as the regular Normandy.  (I think its twice.. its definitely bigger).
So you have exploding He3 fueltanks.  This in itself would prolly flatten the immediate area.  If that doesnt happen then you still have a huge explosion that would kill those in the immediate area, along with burning wreckage now blocking Mako's and other ground troops.

Not shooting the Normandy down was just silly.  There is no "logic" behind it.  The writers commited to a series of events and then had to show them playing out - despite them being stupid.  Anyone who thinks the scene is logical and wonderful needs to take off those beer goggles.

It makes no goddamn sense. Even beer googles couldn't change that.

[Maxster_]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Aaleel wrote...

I mean if this isn't saying "C'mon I dare you to shoot me" I don't know what is.

Harbinger was multi tasking pretty damn good when you were running down the hill hitting ariel vehicles, makos, and soldiers on foot. I mean not even a pot shot.

I understand from Bioware's perspective because they would have had to redo everything involving the Normandy and the crew from the original ending when they were already trying to explain how the squadmates ended up on the Normandy in the first place.

But from a common sense perspective it doesn't make a lick of sense why the Normandy wasn't shot down.

So, the solution is simple... USE A SHUTTLE. Ta-da! Fixed.
-No need to worry about timing, there were plenty of shuttles when we landed.
-No need to worry about why Harby doesn't fire on the shuttle, it truly is not a threat and destroying it means diddly.
-No need to worry about how the squadmates got on the Normandy, it's a shuttle.

It still begs the question why anyone is leaving at all, but if we MUST have Shepard alone because to hell with orders and what the squadies want, then oh well. At least now it's not hair pulling stupid.

But how would that be without this funny scene with EDI as a squadmate? I laughed several minutes, so hilariously retarded

Of course, shuttle would fix that plothole, and generate only moderate amount of nonsense(suddenly - evacuation for no reason or sense).
Compared to what we have now(like teleporting Normandy, which nullifies any need for priority:earth) - it would be a great improvement.

[JasonShepard]

Maxster_ wrote...

Magic beam is an asspull. It have no place in the lore. How can something magical be damaged by conventional weaponry?

So the Conduit in ME1... that also had no place in the law either, huh? In fact, if the Citadel beam is anything like the original conduit, there's a damn good reason why the Reapers wouldn't want it blown up. Remember Arrival? We might not lose the Solar System, but we could easily lose a substantial chunk of Earth.

Anyway, you have no idea what beam is, it serves only purpose - to connect Citadel to Earth, because of that nonsense "Take back Earth".

See above - I can make an educated guess that it's a miniature Mass Relay of some kind. Which would fit with it being Reaper tech and since relays are, so far, the only thing like that beam that we've seen in the MEU.
Further, judging by Shepard and Anderson's comments on board the Citadel, I think we can surmise that humans were being transported up to the Citadel to be processed into Reapers. You wouldn't build a Reaper on the ground, after all. So it does have an in-universe purpose.

Also, they turning beam on and off in cutscenes.

Really? When?

And, making a several times contrived scenario, just to make sense out of pure nonsense.. Well, that does show quality(none) of their work.
Anyway, to assume that reapers can not turn their own beam off, is a pure asspull.

I'm forced into that assumption by the simple fact that they don't switch it off. Conveniently, this helps me explain another potential plot hole.

As a result, if (as I think we can also assume) blowing up the SR2 would make an explosion larger than that of the SR1 (which was itself fairly impressive), then they actually wouldn't want to do it.

So, they contrively didn't turn off the beam, then they contrively didn't annihilated entire assault, and now they contively just don't want to destroy Normandy, because reasons.

I'm being polite and respectful to you, it'd be nice for you to at least try to be so in return.

That's one explanation, anyway. Other explanations include jamming from the beam and/or EDI, stealth systems, the fact that Harbinger already has a lot to deal with, and the possibility that Harbinger's weapons may not be up to piercing the Normandy's shields in this situation.
Remember that, because of it's size, a Reaper has to divert a considerable amount of power to maintaining a Mass Effect field to counteract a planet's gravity, thus Harby's weapon systems would not be at full strength. This may also explain how Shepard survives.

So, they suddenly can't turn off the beam, suddenly can not damage it, for some unknown reason didn't want to destroy Normandy, and now, suddenly they are also weakened.

The weakening thing is mentioned in the codex. Here. I've supplied explanations for the rest. Arrogance can explain a lot.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 16 janvier 2013 - 11:41 .