63 réponses à ce sujet

[MichaelStuart]

A random idea.

Limiting the amount of abilities/spells a character can have.

Before a character leaves base/camp/home. You choose what abilities/spells the player characters know, up to a limit. The characters can only use thoose abilities/spells untill you return to base/camp/home and re choose.

I believe this would mke pre-planing a bigger part of the game, particularly if certain enemies are more susceptible to certain abilities/spells, or certain environments can only cross with certain abilites/spells (example: rock blocking shortcut, use certain spell to move it)

Now as why characters would just forget certain abilities, I have no good reason that wouldn't sound forced.
Since gameplay and story segregation can be annoying, I propose limited abilites/ spells be purely optional.

[Auintus]

Why would someone willingly limit themselves? It's counterproductive.

[Abraham_uk]

The Opening Poster's idea reminds me of Vancian Casting system used in Baldur's Gate 1 & 2.

Check out this web page.



This is really hard to explain.
Anyway. Because of the Dragon Age lore, this kind of casting system cannot be implemented.

But perhaps in Bioware's new IP they might do something similiar.


For further explanation of what the Vancian casting system is, check out thisvideo.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:32 .

[Raging_Pulse]

^ This.

OP, don't know if you are aware of it, but what you are suggesting is basically a good old Vancian casting system (pretty much all Dungeons&Dragons-based games).

I'm... not so sure how well it would fit in Dragon Age games, tbh.

Modifié par Domecoming, 16 janvier 2013 - 08:32 .

[Fiddzz]

Abraham_uk wrote...

The Opening Poster's idea reminds me of Vancian Casting system used in Baldur's Gate 1 & 2.

Check out this web page.



This is really hard to explain.
Anyway. Because of the Dragon Age lore, this kind of casting system cannot be implemented.

But perhaps in Bioware's new IP they might do something similiar.


For further explanation of what the Vancian casting system is, check out thisvideo.

That casting system is the reason i'm hesitating getting BG1/2 again.... hated it.

[Abraham_uk]

Yeah. Dungeons & Dragon lore states that wizards and priests have to prepare spells into spell slots before battle.

When they use all their slots, they must rest for 8 hours before using them.



Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 was more forgiving since at higher levels you get to cast more spells. More than 30 depending on your class.




But in earlier editions of Dungeons and Dragons (correct me if I'm wrong since this isn't my area of expertise) a mage was limited to 1 spell. That's it. 1 Spell. If the spell casting fails (spell casting will actually fail more often than not), you lose health or even die. Thus making mages the most worthless piece of trash ever concieved.


But in Baldur's Gate 1 & 2, mages and priests can memorise so many spells that they actually become overpowered. I enjoyed being a mage/cleric hybrid. Best of both worlds if you ask me.


Wow, this stuff is really nerdy, even by my standards.

[Abraham_uk]

The trouble with the Vencian Magic system, is that it is woefully inflexible.


Spells in Dungeons and Dragons are so situational that you can't just spam them Mass Effect style.
You have to think, plan and hope for the best, because unless this is your second playthrough, you have no idea what you're about to face.


It is better to have limited magic points, with a fair spell variety, since you can still adapt to each situation, but still be discouraged from spell spam. Spell spamming is an issue with Dragon Age 2.

Mass Effect series is the worst for spell spamming. Don't get me wrong, I love my overpowered cooldown system. But when you can just throw your powers at the enemies rapidly without impunity, the difficulty plummets greatly. I actually do enjoy the classes in Mass Effect series by the way, but this doesn't stop me from seeing the flaws.



For Dragon Age, reduce the amount of mana, but keep the mages staff/spear hybrid (from Dragon Age 2). That way the mage can conserve their magic for situations where it is necessary to use spells, but still be useful when they're not casting spells.

[MichaelStuart]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in a Vancain system, don't you forget the abilites/spells after you use them? because that's not what I'm suggesting.
What I'm suggesting is that you pick different abilites/spells up to a limit. Then use those abilites/spells as many times as many times as stamina/mana/cooldowns allows.
Also it would apply to non-mages.

[tfcreative]

You're basically talking about load outs, which I'm not sure can apply to a mage unless you tie spells to equipment or something. The scenario you seem to be suggesting implies that the mage in question simply forgets how to cast some of their spells, and them remembers them when they get back to camp. Current DA lore doesn't really allow for a sudden switch to "equipping" spells.

[dazman]

enchanted items and weapons for specific stuff like in the dao mage origin i wouldnt mind but limiting the ways i get to kill people with spells like freezing them then blasting with a giant fire ball no thanks

[MichaelStuart]

tfcreative wrote...

Current DA lore doesn't really allow for a sudden switch to "equipping" spells.

I know, but just like having a option to not take any damage from companions, I don't think having a option to limit abilities/spells will make people question the lore.

[Abraham_uk]

Would the opening post be willing to make a compromise, to ensure he is being lore friendly?

I've found a way of equipping spells that can be lore friendly.


PLEASE READ THIS ENTIRE POST BEFORE YOU TEAR IT APART


Perhaps you have a Dragon Age game where rogues and warriors can cast spells without being mages.
This could a popular means alternative spell casting, since it doesn't involve having to enter the fade.

• Magical items can take the place of the mage.
  
• Each magical item has a particular spell.
  
• When you use the item, it is disguarded.
  
• You have a weight limit on how many of these items you can carry.
  
• This way a warror or rogue can cast spells.
  
• Due to the limitations of how many stones can be carried (because they're heavy), the mage isn't completly redundant.

Modifié par Abraham_uk, 16 janvier 2013 - 09:08 .

[Gileadan]

Picking your abilities before heading out to an adventure is only pre-planning if you already know what opposition and problems you are going to face... otherwise, it's merely pre-guessing.

[Fast Jimmy]

For Dragon Age, reduce the amount of mana, but keep the mages staff/spear hybrid (from Dragon Age 2). That way the mage can conserve their magic for situations where it is necessary to use spells, but still be useful when they're not casting spells.

Reducing the amount of mana doesn't always work, though. Because then your Mage will just sit there and "pew pew" with their staff, or using it like a bo in combat. But given how squishy Mages are, what usually winds up happening is the Mage just runs around, kiting, waiting for either a lyrium potion cooldown or for the spell cooldown to get done. Running in circles away from an enemy for seconds or even minutes at a time is not really all that exciting. And It certainly doesn't require any strategy.

I had suggested once a system where the Mage faces serious penalties for casting powerful spells, like Firestorm. They would involve a fairly long casting time and make the Mage extremely vulnerable both during and after casting. Lower level spells wouldn't have such penalties, however.

This would lead to Mages only using their nuke spells when the time was absolutely right (or as a Hail Mary if a fight is going terribly bad), as opposed to just using one of the most powerful spells in the game over and over again, multiple times a fight. When level-scaling and class balancing lead to a spell that could destroy a building barely putting a dent in a bandit mook, then that is a problem.

If, instead, you leveled your Mage's build to focus on the low-level spells, you'd have a better steady line of normal spells. Similarly, you could level up your Mage to mitigate some of the negative effects of casting these uber spells (faster casting times, less penalties afterwards). You could even tie Bllod Magic into it, so that being a Blood Mage actually is a hard choice to make (rather than just another way to cast spells).

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 16 janvier 2013 - 09:15 .

[Abraham_uk]

Interesting ideas for the big nuke spells.


I think magic, superpowers, biotics, tech powers, combat powers etc are problematic.


How on Earth do you balance them?


Let's see.

Your spells must be balanced not only in relation to each other and their function. They also must be balanced in relation to weapons and any other means of killing enemies.


The "impossible abilities" (magic, super powers, biotics, tech and combat powers) are a real pain to balance.
They're fun to have, but you get two annoying scenarios.


Magic is too powerful!
Magic is so underpowered that all magic users are garbage!


The other issue with mages is the following. Late bloomers.

Low level mages are garbage.
High level mages are so overpowered that the game becomes broken.



How do you balance magic?
Give me 1 example of a game where the mage or mage-esque classes were equal to the other non magical classes.

[SeptimusMagistos]

I don't like it. The number of spells is already limited enough, why would I want fewer of them?

[Fast Jimmy]

Abraham_uk wrote...
How do you balance magic?Give me 1 example of a game where the mage or mage-esque classes were equal to the other non magical classes

Quest for Glory 1-5.

Modifié par Fast Jimmy, 16 janvier 2013 - 09:20 .

[Abraham_uk]

EntropicAngel wrote...

MichaelStuart wrote...

I know, but just like having a option to not take any damage from companions, I don't think having a option to limit abilities/spells will make people question the lore.

SPeaking of which, I really hope I'm not expected to turn up my combat difficulty in DA ]|[ to have friendly fire. I disagree with it's seclusion to higher difficulty in DA ][.

Friendly fire does somewhat balance nuking spells.

I could use that inferno spell, but I could kill my party members in the process, and have to solo the rest of the fight.

[MichaelStuart]

While I do like the idea of one use spell items, I really don't see why were need to come up with a lore reason for every game play mechanic.

[MichaelStuart]

Gileadan wrote...

Picking your abilities before heading out to an adventure is only pre-planning if you already know what opposition and problems you are going to face... otherwise, it's merely pre-guessing.

I agree, but you always ask what your likey to encounter and plan from there.

[Abraham_uk]

EntropicAngel wrote...

Abraham_uk wrote...

Friendly fire does somewhat balance nuking spells.

I could use that inferno spell, but I could kill my party members in the process, and have to solo the rest of the fight.

It really does.

In DA:O, my two mages are typically casting stuff like that Rockfist (can't remember the name), Freeze, all different types of individual spells.

In DA ][, the first thing they do against a room full of mooks is use Tempest and Firestorm.

In Dragon Age Origins: Golems of Amgarak (final boss), I ended up killing my entire party very quickly with my mage.

Inferno, inferno, inferno, inferno, inferno.

Thank goodness she was an Arcane Warrior.
I had to solo 2/3 of that fight end boss fight.


One of the dwalves tells you to swich between ice and flame weapons.
But when he's lying on the ground, it really makes things tricky.

[Emzamination]

I... can't see any pros in this request. It seems like all you're asking is for mages to be nerfed just for more difficult gameplay. I'm not opposed to more difficulty, but I am opposed to nerfing classes just for the sake of it. But then again, I suppose you did say it should be optional, tho this is really more a job for a personal mod, than a game mechanic.