287 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

Gewehr_fr wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

 And this is why I feel that the Refuse Ending is perfect for those Shepards who just *cannot* make the choice due to their strong sense of morality.

Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters...

Their silence is your answer.

That's a quote from a person whose race believed that honor included the enslavement of other races to ensure their loyalty.  Those that refused to comply were slaughtered.  And others were controlled by them, uplifted to act as cannon fodder (the Rachni).  So, their honor didn't matter at all, but some honor does. 

What also matters is what just surviving means.  It isn't all about morality or even honor; it's about just what your actions do to those left behind.  If you don't know what will happen, then you've no business making such a choice for everyone else.  Even if you do know what will happen, there are questions as to when it is your right to decide for everyone.

Take the case of a doctor and someone who for religious reasons believes that certain medical procedures are unholy.  The doctor may save the person's life, but that person may feel their soul is lost.  They'd rather die than see their afterlife damaged.  Not my belief, but the real belief of some.  If a doctor comes upon an unconscious person and saves them, only to discover this person's religion forbade it, the doctor did nothing morally wrong, but it was wrong for that person that he saved.

However, Shepard knows what the people of the galaxy think.  The doctor in my example, does not.  Shepard knows many don't like tech at all, and don't even want implants-Shepard also has struggled with his/her own identity after the Lazarus Project, and Shepard knows what the geth think of being handed their future.  And those that have sought Synthesis have all been warped in some way or even indoctrinated.  That casts doubt on Synthesis.  Shepard knows what people think about Control.  Those that sought it were megalomaniacs, indoctrinated, or even dead.  Others thought it was folly or that control ruined both the one who sought it and the one under it-it changed everyone subjected to it.  That casts doubt on Control.  Shepard may come to understand EDI and the geth, and to appreciate them and even to help them see and want their own (free will) future.  And Shepard also may well view all life as precious and not see one life as more valuable than another.  That casts doubt on Destroy. 

It isn't about honor-it's about who decides who lives and who dies.  It's about who decides the kind of existence that will be handed to those that survive and if that existence is better than dying.  It's also being certain that it is.  These are not and should not be easy questions that are handled by one person who gets some paltry information from the one who has been causing death and destruction.  Shepard isn't looking to save his/her honor or even that of the galaxy, but Shepard should be looking at just what kind of a future is being handed to or forced upon the galaxy, and Shepard must know what it means.  Because Shepard is being forced to abandon everything that meant anything to him/her and the galaxy (based upon your game) in order to decide for everyone.  It would be like me deciding in the next 5 minutes what kind of life you get to lead. 

Even on the BSN, we have people that don't want me or anyone but BW or themselves, to decide the fate of ME3 or ME games, so how about I get to decide to turn you into a pumpkin or not?  Does that make sense?

[BleedingUranium]

Iamjdr wrote...

How are you taking there free will? If someone tells you they are willing to sacrifice themselves then isn't there will to be sacrificed if it what needs to be done, if that is what is nessicary to win? Isn't that the point of Edi telling you that before the end happens so when the time comes you know where she stands there's no guessing.

Exactly. A soldier (make no mistake, that's what EDI and all of the Geth are now) knows they may have to make the ultimate sacrifice, and that they're not going to be personally asked at that time whether they would or would not like to die for that particular reason. EDI says she would die to ensure the Reapers are killed, that's all that matters.

[3DandBeyond]

essarr71 wrote...

Its irrelevent how EDI feels. She's a crew member during war. She goes wheres shes ordered. Its Shepards call to make. I doubt anyone WANTS to die. Its a war.  

How many people have you commanded that you sent to die?  It's completely relevant how they feel, even during war.  It can determine how well they follow your orders.  And, it's one thing to order someone to face death in fighting an enemy.  It's another thing to throw them onto a bomb to save the lives of others, especially if you have no real idea that that's what you're doing. 

Jump on the bomb yourself-that makes sense.  Tell people that they have to run headlong at an enemy that will likely kill them-that makes sense.  Shoot someone in the head to possibly save another's life-that's another thing, altogether.  If you choose to shoot, you've committed murder.  The enemy may well win, but you not only change the context of your own character by shooting a friend, you change the value of life itself.  If the question was one of killing all humans to save all the Geth, or to save all Batarians, it might be clearer.  Destroy sets one race (organics) above another (synthetics).  Shepard, in my game, believed the geth and EDI were alive and did care about them-she saw them as people.  But the game wants that Shepard to kill them and not allow them to use their free will and decide to sacrifice themselves.

[Seboist]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

If EDI's prepared to die, I'm more than happy to oblige her.

Same here and Joker can join it in the grave too.

[Iamjdr]

That's exactly what I ment every single man and woman under my command knows the stakes of what we are fighting for. They all are willing to fight and die on my orders to end the reaper threat and they are all willing to sacrifice there own if necessary to do so. Or did you all forget that Garris left Manae as Palavin burned or Grunt left Arlack to save me and the queen or that Tali came back to fight on earth instead of staying on rannoch or that mordin gave his life to cure the krogan how bout when victus's son sacrificed his self and his men to stop the bomb. What makes Edi or the Geth anymore valuable then all these people who have fought sacrificed and died for me to stop the reapers.

[BleedingUranium]

EDI states that submission is not preferable to extinction. She would rather die than accept what the Reapers want. The leader of the Reapers wants anything that is not Destroy.

[3DandBeyond]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

How are you taking there free will? If someone tells you they are willing to sacrifice themselves then isn't there will to be sacrificed if it what needs to be done, if that is what is nessicary to win? Isn't that the point of Edi telling you that before the end happens so when the time comes you know where she stands there's no guessing.

Exactly. A soldier (make no mistake, that's what EDI and all of the Geth are now) knows they may have to make the ultimate sacrifice, and that they're not going to be personally asked at that time whether they would or would not like to die for that particular reason. EDI says she would die to ensure the Reapers are killed, that's all that matters.

You aren't asking her to die, you are killing her.  In fact, if you presented the scenario to EDI and the geth, it's very likely they'd say "WTF?"  EDI and the geth disprove the logic that the kid uses that is the basis for the choices existing.  So, it makes sense to kill them, but not even reference them in order to refute what the kid says?

Consider it.  Give EDI the choice to die (in your head).  Explain to EDI all that the kid says and then ask her if she is willing to die.  Then, explain to her why you never discussed her at all when the kid says that synthetics will kill organics.  Explain that to the geth.

Then, go to war and explain to your soldiers that you need to drop a bomb on them because the enemy needs you to do that in order to solve his problem.  The enemy thinks that soldiers are killing civilians so all soldiers must be killed.  See how many volunteers you have to stand under the bomb.

[Steelcan]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

If EDI's prepared to die, I'm more than happy to oblige her.

. She can join the geth.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 At a time when she's completely ignorant of the truth and the alternative solutions to the problem, YES, she does say that.

[BD Manchild]

Forget it, 3D. I've tried debating and arguing with this person on another thread. Your time would be better spent talking to a wall.

Modifié par BD Manchild, 17 janvier 2013 - 04:08 .

[BleedingUranium]

What you just said makes no sense on a number of levels.

When it comes down to it, EDI is a soldier under my command, as are the Geth. They have said, both in words directly to be that they are willing to die attempting to kill the Reapers, and agreed just by joining in the war that they are willing to die for whatever situation I deem appropriate. That's what all soldiers agree to, period.

[Wayning_Star]

It's kind of funny reading posts about how so'n so is about 'sacrfice'n stuff', but only pick destroy to safe Sheps assets..

NOBODY wants or are willing to just die, they're willing to RISK their lives..big f'n difference..Kids. lol

[BleedingUranium]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 At a time when she's completely ignorant of the truth and the alternative solutions to the problem, YES, she does say that.

The two Reaper alternatives?

[Iamjdr]

Why would I need to ask her again if she went out of her way to tell me in the first place? Is she gonna change her mind all of a sudden now that it's what's needed of her?

[BleedingUranium]

Wayning_Star wrote...

It's kind of funny reading posts about how so'n so is about 'sacrfice'n stuff', but only pick destroy to safe Sheps assets..

NOBODY wants or are willing to just die, they're willing to RISK their lives..big f'n difference..Kids. lol

That's actually not true at all, because I thought Shepard was going to die the first time I finished the game. And Destroy is painted by the kid as the one where you will die, and in the other two you will "live on" in some way or another.

[Yate]

It's sad that she dies. But frankly, if it comes down to me, Shepard, vs. her, I choose Shepard every time.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

BleedingUranium wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 At a time when she's completely ignorant of the truth and the alternative solutions to the problem, YES, she does say that.

The two Reaper alternatives?

Sorry, I reject IT.

[Wayning_Star]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

It's kind of funny reading posts about how so'n so is about 'sacrfice'n stuff', but only pick destroy to safe Sheps assets..

NOBODY wants or are willing to just die, they're willing to RISK their lives..big f'n difference..Kids. lol

That's actually not true at all, because I thought Shepard was going to die the first time I finished the game. And Destroy is painted by the kid as the one where you will die, and in the other two you will "live on" in some way or another.

Yeah,well the breath scene begs to differ, the 'hope' is still there and strong in you young skywalker..

[BleedingUranium]

Iamjdr wrote...

Why would I need to ask her again if she went out of her way to tell me in the first place? Is she gonna change her mind all of a sudden now that it's what's needed of her?

Exactly, and that's even besides the fact that she's a a soldier under my command, who I can order to do whatever I deem neccessary, her permission is awesome, but totally unneeded.

[xAmilli0n]

Eterna5 wrote...

EDI would have accepted death if there was no other choice. But the thing is, there are other choices that solve the problem and don't result in her and every other Synthetics beings death.

You can rationalize it all you wish, EDI would not pick Destroy if she knew of the other options.

I like this post.  While I believe EDI would most likely understand the need for her sacrafice, it is important to realize there are other options that do not require it, and she would more than likely prefer.

[Iamjdr]

She isn't completely oblivious to the other options btw cause the illusive man defiantly tried to convince Edi control was a good idea since she took doctor evas body.

[essarr71]

Not even close to my line of thought, 3D.

Id have sacrificed humanity, asari, geth... It doesnt matter. Hell, I would sacrifice the entire cycle if it meant the Reaper threat stopped.

And I do it because I DONT think its fair to condemn synthetics. They get wiped out by Reapers, just the same.

No. I dont condemn EDI lightly. But Id sacrifice 1000 EDIs or a 1000 Vegas or Garrus' if it meant the Reapers are done. I can accept that. I dont need to sell off my soul and keep everyone under the Reapers boot or genetically/psychologically rape the entire milky way to feel better about myself because a few SOLDIERS might die to save every soul/future soul.

[3DandBeyond]

BleedingUranium wrote...

EDI states that submission is not preferable to extinction. She would rather die than accept what the Reapers want. The leader of the Reapers wants anything that is not Destroy.

Shepard states that it is not about just surviving.  Making a choice also is a form of submission.  Who needed a new solution and was using a solution to kill people?  Actually, destroy does serve the leader of the reapers' problem.  It destroys synthetics.

You are assuming that all of the choices are permanent.  Please explain the permanence of Control and Synthesis.  Does control stop all conflict between organics and synthetics?  The reapers are synthetic and the geth still live, as likely will other synthetics that people will create.  So, if conflict occurs, who will Shepard protect?  And conflict will occur-it's inevitable or was the kid lying or just wrong?

Synthesis.  Consider what happens to the geth and all synthetics.  They don't have their DNA altered.  They get full understanding of organics (from somewhere), and yet organics no longer exist.  Organics and even new synthetics could one day be created and using the kid's logic, the conflict will return.  It's inevitable, or was the kid lying or just wrong?

Destroy.  It likely would delay the conflict the longest, actually.  Organics would have to fix all tech and create synthetics and as in all choices, they would and could.  The conflict will return.  It's inevitable, or was the kid lying or just wrong?

The only permanent solution is annihilation of the galaxy.  The destruction of all life is the only thing that could ultimately assure that the conflict will never exist.  The galaxy would have to be wiped clean of anything that would possibly eventually lead to life ever existing again.  But, the kid was created to see that the conflict was inevitable.  He not only sees that it will always happen, he believes he must make sure that it will always happen.

[BleedingUranium]

Wayning_Star wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

It's kind of funny reading posts about how so'n so is about 'sacrfice'n stuff', but only pick destroy to safe Sheps assets..

NOBODY wants or are willing to just die, they're willing to RISK their lives..big f'n difference..Kids. lol

That's actually not true at all, because I thought Shepard was going to die the first time I finished the game. And Destroy is painted by the kid as the one where you will die, and in the other two you will "live on" in some way or another.

Yeah,well the breath scene begs to differ, the 'hope' is still there and strong in you young skywalker..

Like I literally just said, I didn't know about that when I first played, it was a nice surprise.

HYR 2.0 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 At
a time when she's completely ignorant of the truth and the alternative
solutions to the problem, YES, she does say that.

The two Reaper alternatives?

Sorry, I reject IT.

IT isn't required for them to be Reaper options. They are that period, even if you view them as good.