287 réponses à ce sujet

[Wayning_Star]

The problem with the MEU is that its not the MEU, it's the MMEU.

Multie Mass Effect Universe.

everyone 'else' has to pick the spot for everyone else. Kind of confusing when you have to actually think about it..

[BleedingUranium]

essarr71 wrote...

Not even close to my line of thought, 3D.

Id have sacrificed humanity, asari, geth... It doesnt matter. Hell, I would sacrifice the entire cycle if it meant the Reaper threat stopped.

And I do it because I DONT think its fair to condemn synthetics. They get wiped out by Reapers, just the same.

No. I dont condemn EDI lightly. But Id sacrifice 1000 EDIs or a 1000 Vegas or Garrus' if it meant the Reapers are done. I can accept that. I dont need to sell off my soul and keep everyone under the Reapers boot or genetically/psychologically rape the entire milky way to feel better about myself because a few SOLDIERS might die to save every soul/future soul.

Perfect.

3DandBeyond wrote...

Destroy.  It likely would delay the
conflict the longest, actually.  Organics would have to fix all tech and
create synthetics and as in all choices, they would and could.  The
conflict will return.  It's inevitable, or was the kid lying or just
wrong?

Lying or wrong, one or the other, but it doesn't
matter which. His assertions about organic and synthetic conflict were
proven wrong before I ever met him.

[Iamjdr]

@3D the reapers do note want to kill all synthetics so to say destroy is a reaper solution is ridiculous. The catalyst even says as much how can synthesis be the catalysts final solution if it wants to kill all synthetics?

[Wayning_Star]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

Why would I need to ask her again if she went out of her way to tell me in the first place? Is she gonna change her mind all of a sudden now that it's what's needed of her?

Exactly, and that's even besides the fact that she's a a soldier under my command, who I can order to do whatever I deem neccessary, her permission is awesome, but totally unneeded.

aah, the catalsyt works in mysterious ways.. as well as other forms of 'intellect'..lol

[teh DRUMPf!!]

BleedingUranium wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 At
a time when she's completely ignorant of the truth and the alternative
solutions to the problem, YES, she does say that.

The two Reaper alternatives?

Sorry, I reject IT.

IT isn't required for them to be Reaper options. They are that period, even if you view them as good.

EDI is a synthetic sympathizer.

She pitied the geth, who'd allied with the Reapers, and is the only squadmate who won't voice suspicion over Legion on the dreadnought. So it's not a stretch to believe she'd give the "Reaper options" a chance.

I think people who quote that one line from EDI are merely projecting their own rigidity on this subject onto her.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 17 janvier 2013 - 04:23 .

[Wayning_Star]

the peace won't last? The BSN is probably the best indicator... looks like the cat was correct again..

[Wayning_Star]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 At
a time when she's completely ignorant of the truth and the alternative
solutions to the problem, YES, she does say that.

The two Reaper alternatives?

Sorry, I reject IT.

IT isn't required for them to be Reaper options. They are that period, even if you view them as good.

EDI is a synthetic sympathizer.

She pitied the geth, who'd allied with the Reapers, and is the only squadmate who won't voice suspicion over Legion on the dreadnought.

So it's not a stretch to believe she'd give the "Reaper options" a chance.

preposterous.. covers this post.

edit: but it does show how well the catalyst covers the idea of organics vs synthetic and conflicts...of interests..n'stuff.

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 17 janvier 2013 - 04:25 .

[3DandBeyond]

essarr71 wrote...

Not even close to my line of thought, 3D.

Id have sacrificed humanity, asari, geth... It doesnt matter. Hell, I would sacrifice the entire cycle if it meant the Reaper threat stopped.

And I do it because I DONT think its fair to condemn synthetics. They get wiped out by Reapers, just the same.

No. I dont condemn EDI lightly. But Id sacrifice 1000 EDIs or a 1000 Vegas or Garrus' if it meant the Reapers are done. I can accept that. I dont need to sell off my soul and keep everyone under the Reapers boot or genetically/psychologically rape the entire milky way to feel better about myself because a few SOLDIERS might die to save every soul/future soul.

Then, you actually have no heart/soul and have decided that some life is more important than other life.  That is what is important about when Shepard says it isn't about just surviving.  It is not your right to decide.  And you believe the reapers will no longer exist-but Shepard has no way of knowing that with any certainty.  Shepard also speaks to that earlier in my game, when saying you don't condemn a race to extinction based upon what might happen.  Shepard, in order to make any choice, must believe that synthetics will always kill organics AND that the choices will do what the kid says they will do.  And then furthermore, Shepard must believe that what is done will create good.  But Shepard does not know that it will at all.

In the past things have been done to set one race above or below another and even that did not require a person of one race to exterminate a whole race of his friends and allies.  In ME3, the reality is that synthetics could be created again, whereas in real life if you wipe out a whole race, they no longer will exist ever again.  So, in ME3, new synthetics would exist in a reality where all people see synthetics as less authentic.  Mistrust would create new inevitable conflict.  So what if the reapers are dead-the new reality would be far worse, in many ways since no one could trust anyone. 

[Wayning_Star]

How can Edi 'choose' to die, she's not even human or organic OP.. Machines can die?

Who'd of thought of that one?

[BleedingUranium]

Oh, this again.

The Geth accepted Reaper help because the combination of the attack on their Dyson bubble along with the Quarians' "flashbang" type weapon reduced the Geth to animal-like intelligence. Blaming them for accepting help is like blaming a dog for eating a poisoned dog biscuit; it literally cannot know better and cannot be at fault.

As for Legion's code, that was not Reaper tech, it was based on Reaper tech, much like our Thanix cannons and the Prothean mass relay on Ilos. Reaper tech = bad. Reverse engineered Reaper tech = no problem.

[Iamjdr]

She is an advanced ai she altered her code to put the importance of her crews lives above her own

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

essarr71 wrote...

Not even close to my line of thought, 3D.

Id have sacrificed humanity, asari, geth... It doesnt matter. Hell, I would sacrifice the entire cycle if it meant the Reaper threat stopped.

And I do it because I DONT think its fair to condemn synthetics. They get wiped out by Reapers, just the same.

No. I dont condemn EDI lightly. But Id sacrifice 1000 EDIs or a 1000 Vegas or Garrus' if it meant the Reapers are done. I can accept that. I dont need to sell off my soul and keep everyone under the Reapers boot or genetically/psychologically rape the entire milky way to feel better about myself because a few SOLDIERS might die to save every soul/future soul.

Then, you actually have no heart/soul and have decided that some life is more important than other life.  That is what is important about when Shepard says it isn't about just surviving.  It is not your right to decide.  And you believe the reapers will no longer exist-but Shepard has no way of knowing that with any certainty.  Shepard also speaks to that earlier in my game, when saying you don't condemn a race to extinction based upon what might happen.  Shepard, in order to make any choice, must believe that synthetics will always kill organics AND that the choices will do what the kid says they will do.  And then furthermore, Shepard must believe that what is done will create good.  But Shepard does not know that it will at all.

In the past things have been done to set one race above or below another and even that did not require a person of one race to exterminate a whole race of his friends and allies.  In ME3, the reality is that synthetics could be created again, whereas in real life if you wipe out a whole race, they no longer will exist ever again.  So, in ME3, new synthetics would exist in a reality where all people see synthetics as less authentic.  Mistrust would create new inevitable conflict.  So what if the reapers are dead-the new reality would be far worse, in many ways since no one could trust anyone. 

Luckily  3d, it's not up to Shep. I'm assuming direct control..

[BleedingUranium]

No, Destroy is rejecting the kid's claim that organics and synthetics will always fight, because if you believed him, then you'd pick something else.

3D, if there were 10 people going to be run over by a train, but you had the option to press a button so only 1 would die, would you press it?

[crimzontearz]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Oh, this again.

The Geth accepted Reaper help because the combination of the attack on their Dyson bubble along with the Quarians' "flashbang" type weapon reduced the Geth to animal-like intelligence. Blaming them for accepting help is like blaming a dog for eating a poisoned dog biscuit; it literally cannot know better and cannot be at fault.

As for Legion's code, that was not Reaper tech, it was based on Reaper tech, much like our Thanix cannons and the Prothean mass relay on Ilos. Reaper tech = bad. Reverse engineered Reaper tech = no problem.

thanix cannons, sadly, have been retconned out of existence


 

 
goddammit

[BleedingUranium]

crimzontearz wrote...

thanix cannons, sadly, have been retconned out of existence

That is 100% false.

[3DandBeyond]

Iamjdr wrote...

@3D the reapers do note want to kill all synthetics so to say destroy is a reaper solution is ridiculous. The catalyst even says as much how can synthesis be the catalysts final solution if it wants to kill all synthetics?

No it isn't ridiculous.  The main goal isn't to kill them all, of course.  But it is to keep them from killing organics.  How is what I said so ridiculous when you believe the catalyst doesn't want to kill organics, but is killing organics?

You think Synthesis is his final solution because he says that, but his final solution is anything that solves the problem of synthetics killing organics.  So, in trying to solve this, he's killed organics.  The problem is in synthesis he also kills organics because they no longer exist.  It's like he has this equation-"Synthetics - Organics = problem".  Synthetics killing organics.  So he creates a solution, the reapers.  He kills organics before synthetics can.  So his equation no longer exists.  "Synthetics - Organics = no problem."  Then, there's synthesis, a more perfect version.  He doesn't out and out destroy organics but they no longer exist.  The equation is now "Synthetics - hybridized people = no problem".  So why would he not think that Destroy is an equally valid option?  The equation is "Synthetics   - Organics = no problem".  Control merely keeps the status quo. 

But even more is his reaction to any choice Shepard makes.  If he dislikes Destroy then why does he only get mad at refuse/reject?  Every choice changes the equation and gets rid of the problem so they are all solutions.  And they are all temporary or the conflict is not inevitable, not as he understands it.  If it can be stopped or avoided it is not inevitable.

[Iamjdr]

Yeah Im pretty sure thanix cannons are mentioned in one of the alliance war assets.

[Wayning_Star]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Oh, this again.

The Geth accepted Reaper help because the combination of the attack on their Dyson bubble along with the Quarians' "flashbang" type weapon reduced the Geth to animal-like intelligence. Blaming them for accepting help is like blaming a dog for eating a poisoned dog biscuit; it literally cannot know better and cannot be at fault.

As for Legion's code, that was not Reaper tech, it was based on Reaper tech, much like our Thanix cannons and the Prothean mass relay on Ilos. Reaper tech = bad. Reverse engineered Reaper tech = no problem.

reaper tech is tainted goods, don't matter what or how you 'tinker' with it. The cat redesigns Leviathan tech that way.

the only way to make it safe is to completely destroy it or convert its intent. Reverse engineering is just copying stuff, not redesigning.

[Iamjdr]

Umm he says if I pick destroy the peace won't last cause my children will make new synthetics so no I didn't solve anything for him nice try tho and I don't care what the catalyst is trying to do he failed time for us to take a crack at it without the reapers help

[essarr71]

Id rather have no heart than no brains, 3D.

As Im at work at hate using my phone for long posts, Ill leave you to your quixotic delusions.

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

@3D the reapers do note want to kill all synthetics so to say destroy is a reaper solution is ridiculous. The catalyst even says as much how can synthesis be the catalysts final solution if it wants to kill all synthetics?

No it isn't ridiculous.  The main goal isn't to kill them all, of course.  But it is to keep them from killing organics.  How is what I said so ridiculous when you believe the catalyst doesn't want to kill organics, but is killing organics?

You think Synthesis is his final solution because he says that, but his final solution is anything that solves the problem of synthetics killing organics.  So, in trying to solve this, he's killed organics.  The problem is in synthesis he also kills organics because they no longer exist.  It's like he has this equation-"Synthetics - Organics = problem".  Synthetics killing organics.  So he creates a solution, the reapers.  He kills organics before synthetics can.  So his equation no longer exists.  "Synthetics - Organics = no problem."  Then, there's synthesis, a more perfect version.  He doesn't out and out destroy organics but they no longer exist.  The equation is now "Synthetics - hybridized people = no problem".  So why would he not think that Destroy is an equally valid option?  The equation is "Synthetics   - Organics = no problem".  Control merely keeps the status quo. 

But even more is his reaction to any choice Shepard makes.  If he dislikes Destroy then why does he only get mad at refuse/reject?  Every choice changes the equation and gets rid of the problem so they are all solutions.  And they are all temporary or the conflict is not inevitable, not as he understands it.  If it can be stopped or avoided it is not inevitable.

just because you can paint over a famous painting doesn't mean that its not famous anymore 3d. You are trying to redesign the catalyst, not understand it's form'n function. Minces words do not an informed decision made.

Face it, Synthesis is what the MEU is after, we, here on old earth just cannot get a grip on it. Too organic oriented.

We're "Old School".. lol

[Gewehr_fr]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Gewehr_fr wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

 And this is why I feel that the Refuse Ending is perfect for those Shepards who just *cannot* make the choice due to their strong sense of morality.

Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters...

Their silence is your answer.

That's a quote from a person whose race believed that honor included the enslavement of other races to ensure their loyalty.  Those that refused to comply were slaughtered.  And others were controlled by them, uplifted to act as cannon fodder (the Rachni).  So, their honor didn't matter at all, but some honor does. 

What also matters is what just surviving means.  It isn't all about morality or even honor; it's about just what your actions do to those left behind.  If you don't know what will happen, then you've no business making such a choice for everyone else.  Even if you do know what will happen, there are questions as to when it is your right to decide for everyone.

Take the case of a doctor and someone who for religious reasons believes that certain medical procedures are unholy.  The doctor may save the person's life, but that person may feel their soul is lost.  They'd rather die than see their afterlife damaged.  Not my belief, but the real belief of some.  If a doctor comes upon an unconscious person and saves them, only to discover this person's religion forbade it, the doctor did nothing morally wrong, but it was wrong for that person that he saved.

However, Shepard knows what the people of the galaxy think.  The doctor in my example, does not.  Shepard knows many don't like tech at all, and don't even want implants-Shepard also has struggled with his/her own identity after the Lazarus Project, and Shepard knows what the geth think of being handed their future.  And those that have sought Synthesis have all been warped in some way or even indoctrinated.  That casts doubt on Synthesis.  Shepard knows what people think about Control.  Those that sought it were megalomaniacs, indoctrinated, or even dead.  Others thought it was folly or that control ruined both the one who sought it and the one under it-it changed everyone subjected to it.  That casts doubt on Control.  Shepard may come to understand EDI and the geth, and to appreciate them and even to help them see and want their own (free will) future.  And Shepard also may well view all life as precious and not see one life as more valuable than another.  That casts doubt on Destroy. 

It isn't about honor-it's about who decides who lives and who dies.  It's about who decides the kind of existence that will be handed to those that survive and if that existence is better than dying.  It's also being certain that it is.  These are not and should not be easy questions that are handled by one person who gets some paltry information from the one who has been causing death and destruction.  Shepard isn't looking to save his/her honor or even that of the galaxy, but Shepard should be looking at just what kind of a future is being handed to or forced upon the galaxy, and Shepard must know what it means.  Because Shepard is being forced to abandon everything that meant anything to him/her and the galaxy (based upon your game) in order to decide for everyone.  It would be like me deciding in the next 5 minutes what kind of life you get to lead. 

Even on the BSN, we have people that don't want me or anyone but BW or themselves, to decide the fate of ME3 or ME games, so how about I get to decide to turn you into a pumpkin or not?  Does that make sense?

I do not agree with Javik's views on pretty much everything, but right here his point still stands.

People are dying by hundred of millions, perhaps billions. You've got the chance to stop it once and for all, yes with the Geth people (yes I do consider them valid life forms) as collateral damage which is very dramatic, and you reject this only chance, the only one you'll ever get.

This might sound harsh, although this is not my intent, but only an idealistic moron would let the cycles continues to avoid making a choice that contraries his beliefs. As this quote says, while your Shepard is standing right there on the citadel, watching every ship get destroyed, every world burn, every single person dying, you should then asks the ghosts of these people if keeping their honor intact mattered, if their sacrifice was worth it. Their silence is indeed your answer.

Your example with the doctor works for Synthesis, which I despise and I agree that Shepard has no right to choose to do such thing, and eventually for control (living under the control of machines) but I fail to see it applied to the Destroy ending. Destroy is exactly the contrary of those, destroy means rejecting the catalyst's doctrine, litteraly refusing, and let the galaxy build a future of its own.

[Wayning_Star]

Wayning_Star wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

@3D the reapers do note want to kill all synthetics so to say destroy is a reaper solution is ridiculous. The catalyst even says as much how can synthesis be the catalysts final solution if it wants to kill all synthetics?

No it isn't ridiculous.  The main goal isn't to kill them all, of course.  But it is to keep them from killing organics.  How is what I said so ridiculous when you believe the catalyst doesn't want to kill organics, but is killing organics?

You think Synthesis is his final solution because he says that, but his final solution is anything that solves the problem of synthetics killing organics.  So, in trying to solve this, he's killed organics.  The problem is in synthesis he also kills organics because they no longer exist.  It's like he has this equation-"Synthetics - Organics = problem".  Synthetics killing organics.  So he creates a solution, the reapers.  He kills organics before synthetics can.  So his equation no longer exists.  "Synthetics - Organics = no problem."  Then, there's synthesis, a more perfect version.  He doesn't out and out destroy organics but they no longer exist.  The equation is now "Synthetics - hybridized people = no problem".  So why would he not think that Destroy is an equally valid option?  The equation is "Synthetics   - Organics = no problem".  Control merely keeps the status quo. 

But even more is his reaction to any choice Shepard makes.  If he dislikes Destroy then why does he only get mad at refuse/reject?  Every choice changes the equation and gets rid of the problem so they are all solutions.  And they are all temporary or the conflict is not inevitable, not as he understands it.  If it can be stopped or avoided it is not inevitable.

just because you can paint over a famous painting doesn't mean that its not famous anymore 3d. You are trying to redesign the catalyst, not understand it's form'n function. Minced words is not an informed decision made.

Face it, Synthesis is what the MEU is after, we, here on old earth just cannot get a grip on it. Too organic oriented.

We're "Old School".. lol

[BleedingUranium]

Borderline OT, but here are the Thanix cannons:

Volus Dreadought Kwunu
The volus have only produced one dreadnought, the Kwunu, named after the
diplomat who negotiated their client-race status with the turians. The
Kwunu is the only volus ship of its class, but it is remarkably
well-armed. Its broadside cannons and main gun are all Thanix
Magnetic-Hydrodynamic Weapons. A turian general touring the Kwunu after
its maiden system-voyage enthusiastically declared that the ship could
"char a planet three times over". While its construction was funded
entirely by the Elkoss Combine corporation, the dreadnought was jointly
gifted to the Vol Protectorate and Turian Hierarchy upon completion.

Alliance First Fleet
The SSV Leipzig was the first Alliance frigate to field-test the Thanix
cannon, a compact version of a Reaper weapon developed after the Battle
of the Citadel. The Leipzig's captain was so pleased with the results,
she gave her unconditional recommendation that the Alliance begin
mass-producing the cannon as soon as possible.

Alliance Frigate Normandy SR-2
To bolster the Normandy's firepower, Commander Shepard installed a
Thanix Magnetic-Hydrodynamic Cannon on the ship's undercarriage. Based
on Reaper technology, the powerful weapon fires molten metal accelerated
to a fraction of the speed of light.

Geth Fleet
After Commander Shepard's interview with Diana Allers assuring her viewers that the geth can be trusted, Alliance officials grudgingly sent over Thanix cannons for the geth fleet.

Quarian Civilian Fleet
The Civilian Fleet makes up most of the quarian flotilla. Properly
coordinated, the fleet compensates for its lack of dedicated warships
with its sheer numbers. Even its smallest crafts are equipped with
ship-to-ship weaponry. The civilian liveships, enormous floating gardens
that produce food for the quarians, have also been fitted with massive Thanix cannons to provide heavy firepower.

Salarian Third Fleet
An Alliance rear admiral once unfairly dismissed the salarian Third
Fleet as nothing more than "an over-abundance of spy-planes." While the
salarians rely heavily on gathering intelligence in any war, the Third
Fleet's firepower is comparable to any other major naval force. Its
vessels use the latest GARDIAN defense systems,
with improved tracking algorithms to handle a greater number of
projectiles than older models. Even its scouting flotillas have been
armed with hull-mounted Thanix cannons, developed in conjunction with the turian military.

And while not mentioned by name in any of the War Assets, the Turians use them too.

[3DandBeyond]

BleedingUranium wrote...

No, Destroy is rejecting the kid's claim that organics and synthetics will always fight, because if you believed him, then you'd pick something else.

3D, if there were 10 people going to be run over by a train, but you had the option to press a button so only 1 would die, would you press it?

If I had to kill my own child to do so, then no.  But your example is false.  If I was told a train was coming and was told I must kill 20 people to save 20 other random people, but that I did not know I'd be saving them, then no I wouldn't do that.  Also, if it was implied that the train might come back again, no I couldn't do that.  And, if the train engineer doesn't specifically state that he could not make another killer train then no I couldn't do that.

I've given real examples of why this is a fool's gambit.  You are betting the house on the kid telling you the truth, but even all that he says is riddled with misdirection, contradictions, less than adequate explanation, and even lies.  So, by all means press the button.  Gamble all that you know and care about on what he says.  And in so doing, have no idea what will happen to you-the one person that he has become obsessed with and that he sees as a real threat.  He tells you that you must die in 2 out of 3 choices.  Gee, sounds like he really wants to help and isn't merely trying to get you out of the way.

A gang of killers enters your neighborhood, killing all your neighbors (who fought you even as you tried to tell them the killers were coming) and eating them.  You find out they are weaklings controlled by a head thug who in his delusion thinks he's providing everyone with salvation.  You confront him and on the floor of his car is a device that coincidentally works with this thing you've been building to fight the killers.  You have no idea what the thing you've making will do, but it seems to be pretty powerful.  A lot of people tried to help make it and added to it, so that it could change the mind of the head thug to destroy the killers, but no one knew the killers were controlled by a delusional head thug. 

This head thug tells you that because you plugged in the thing you made into his car, it made the device on the car floor start working and it changed his mind.  He now sees that the killers can't keep eating people-that isn't working now.  His main purpose was to keep killers from killing people by killing people, but his eating killers are no longer working to fix that.

So, he gives you 3 choices. 

You can die and control the eating killers-sure your surviving neighbors might have a problem with that, but who cares?  And, you will have to upload your brain into the head thug's body and all and his brain still might be in there, but who cares?

You can get some DNA uploaded into you from somewhere so that you will become part killer and the killers will now understand you better (that's what they get).  You kind of join together, but not really.  The killers aren't changed, they just understand you better.  How they do is not known.

Or, you can use the head thug's car, the device on the floor, and the unknown device you made to destroy the killers, but in doing so you must also kill your kids, your parents, your siblings, your wife, and anyone else you know that you have ever had a conflict with, some may have been forced to help the killers.  But eventually, those in conflict with you will return.  You yourself have been in conflict with you.  You will lose something more, but no more than you've already lost.

Oh, yeah and anyone who ever believed anything the head thug and the killers said and did what they wanted, was also drugged (but ignore the little pill the killers made you swallow).

If you refuse, the thug gets mad and forces you to fight him with your bare fists while he brings in missile launchers.

Make a choice.