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[Wayning_Star]

Gewehr_fr wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Gewehr_fr wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

 And this is why I feel that the Refuse Ending is perfect for those Shepards who just *cannot* make the choice due to their strong sense of morality.

Stand amongst the ashes of a trillion dead souls and ask the ghosts if honor matters...

Their silence is your answer.

That's a quote from a person whose race believed that honor included the enslavement of other races to ensure their loyalty.  Those that refused to comply were slaughtered.  And others were controlled by them, uplifted to act as cannon fodder (the Rachni).  So, their honor didn't matter at all, but some honor does. 

What also matters is what just surviving means.  It isn't all about morality or even honor; it's about just what your actions do to those left behind.  If you don't know what will happen, then you've no business making such a choice for everyone else.  Even if you do know what will happen, there are questions as to when it is your right to decide for everyone.

Take the case of a doctor and someone who for religious reasons believes that certain medical procedures are unholy.  The doctor may save the person's life, but that person may feel their soul is lost.  They'd rather die than see their afterlife damaged.  Not my belief, but the real belief of some.  If a doctor comes upon an unconscious person and saves them, only to discover this person's religion forbade it, the doctor did nothing morally wrong, but it was wrong for that person that he saved.

However, Shepard knows what the people of the galaxy think.  The doctor in my example, does not.  Shepard knows many don't like tech at all, and don't even want implants-Shepard also has struggled with his/her own identity after the Lazarus Project, and Shepard knows what the geth think of being handed their future.  And those that have sought Synthesis have all been warped in some way or even indoctrinated.  That casts doubt on Synthesis.  Shepard knows what people think about Control.  Those that sought it were megalomaniacs, indoctrinated, or even dead.  Others thought it was folly or that control ruined both the one who sought it and the one under it-it changed everyone subjected to it.  That casts doubt on Control.  Shepard may come to understand EDI and the geth, and to appreciate them and even to help them see and want their own (free will) future.  And Shepard also may well view all life as precious and not see one life as more valuable than another.  That casts doubt on Destroy. 

It isn't about honor-it's about who decides who lives and who dies.  It's about who decides the kind of existence that will be handed to those that survive and if that existence is better than dying.  It's also being certain that it is.  These are not and should not be easy questions that are handled by one person who gets some paltry information from the one who has been causing death and destruction.  Shepard isn't looking to save his/her honor or even that of the galaxy, but Shepard should be looking at just what kind of a future is being handed to or forced upon the galaxy, and Shepard must know what it means.  Because Shepard is being forced to abandon everything that meant anything to him/her and the galaxy (based upon your game) in order to decide for everyone.  It would be like me deciding in the next 5 minutes what kind of life you get to lead. 

Even on the BSN, we have people that don't want me or anyone but BW or themselves, to decide the fate of ME3 or ME games, so how about I get to decide to turn you into a pumpkin or not?  Does that make sense?

I do not agree with Javik's views on pretty much everything, but right here his point still stands.

People are dying by hundred of millions, perhaps billions. You've got the chance to stop it once and for all, yes with the Geth people (yes I do consider them valid life forms) as collateral damage which is very dramatic, and you reject this only chance, the only one you'll ever get.

This might sound harsh, although this is not my intent, but only an idealistic moron would let the cycles continues to avoid making a choice that contraries his beliefs. As this quote says, while your Shepard is standing right there on the citadel, watching every ship get destroyed, every world burn, every single person dying, you should then asks the ghosts of these people if keeping their honor intact mattered, if their sacrifice was worth it. Their silence is indeed your answer.

Your example with the doctor works for Synthesis, which I despise and I agree that Shepard has no right to choose to do such thing, and eventually for control (living under the control of machines) but I fail to see it applied to the Destroy ending. Destroy is exactly the contrary of those, destroy means rejecting the catalyst's doctrine, litteraly refusing, and let the galaxy build a future of its own.

rejecting the catalyst's doctrine for another.. but it doesn't stop the cycle as that is the basis for chaos.

[Wayning_Star]

Destroy is the creator destroying the created.

funny how that works in real time...

[BleedingUranium]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Destroy is the creator destroying the created.

funny how that works in real time...

You're still acting like the fact that it's synthetics that die matters, compared to anyone else dying. If it was "destroy the Reapers, but 90% of all life in the galaxy will die" I'd still do it.

@3D What makes you think I trust the kid?

[3DandBeyond]

Gewehr_fr wrote...


I do not agree with Javik's views on pretty much everything, but right here his point still stands.

People are dying by hundred of millions, perhaps billions. You've got the chance to stop it once and for all, yes with the Geth people (yes I do consider them valid life forms) as collateral damage which is very dramatic, and you reject this only chance, the only one you'll ever get.

This might sound harsh, although this is not my intent, but only an idealistic moron would let the cycles continues to avoid making a choice that contraries his beliefs. As this quote says, while your Shepard is standing right there on the citadel, watching every ship get destroyed, every world burn, every single person dying, you should then asks the ghosts of these people if keeping their honor intact mattered, if their sacrifice was worth it. Their silence is indeed your answer.

Your example with the doctor works for Synthesis, which I despise and I agree that Shepard has no right to choose to do such thing, and eventually for control (living under the control of machines) but I fail to see it applied to the Destroy ending. Destroy is exactly the contrary of those, destroy means rejecting the catalyst's doctrine, litteraly refusing, and let the galaxy build a future of its own.

No it isn't on point, because as I said it isn't all about honor.  It's about reality and about knowing what your actions will do, the good and the bad.

Collateral damage is not considered intentional and it is limited.  It is not targeted and on purpose.  That's different.  And it isn't only about what this means for Shepard (how it affects his/her honor), it is about what it does to the galaxy and what Shepard would logically be able to know it will do.

You have to go back point by point and be able to trust all that the catalyst says will happen and you have to know what it all means.  There's no way to do that.  Destroy does not reject his doctrine at all-it is one form of it.  He is at this moment killing organics to stop synthetics from killing organics.  And, people have often said if he wants to do that, then why isn't he killing synthetics?  So, I ask you to tell me how killing synthetics does not also serve his purpose if killing organics does?

Remember that his ultimate goal is to stop synthetics from killing organics-his path to do that is by finding balance, creating peace, and forming a connection, but all that is meant to serve his purpose.  Balance, peace, and a connection are not the goal or the end, they are the means to achieve it.

I work to earn money to buy games.  My goal is to buy games, not to just earn money.  The kid is supposed to achieve balance and the rest to stop the killing, but not just to achieve balance.  So, say the kid creates a connection between organics and synthetics but synthetics still kill organics.  He has not solved the problem.  That's why synthesis has never really worked for him.  It's what the reapers are in a way and that did not work.  They were a connection, were a balance, and they don't work, because he still needs to keep synthetics from killing organics, but he's doing that himself.

[BleedingUranium]

You're saying we shouldn't trust the kid, but then going on about how his motive is to protect organics from synthetics by killing them... or something. Why should I trust that? Why should I believe that's he true purpose and goal?

[Iamjdr]

@ 3D how can detroy be helping the catalyst if he says that one day the synthetics will return? Please help me understand how one of his solutions to the problem of organics being killed off by synthetics is killing himself ,all his reaper forces and the Geth if the synthetics will just come back regardless?

[Ridwan]

She better be. Besides, we can just rebuild her and Joker can get a new one with bigger guns.

[3DandBeyond]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Destroy is the creator destroying the created.

funny how that works in real time...

You're still acting like the fact that it's synthetics that die matters, compared to anyone else dying. If it was "destroy the Reapers, but 90% of all life in the galaxy will die" I'd still do it.

@3D What makes you think I trust the kid?

Your last part first.  You trust him because you make a choice.  You believe Destroy will do something since he says it will.  What else makes you think Destroy will destroy the reapers at all?

The death of synthetics would matter, if not to you, then to the Shepard I played.  Everything she said and did, indicated that the cavalier death of just one person does matter.  Each person is unique and so devaluing the life of one, devalues the life of all.  I am reminded of Star Trek here and the needs of the many and how it became clear that sometimes the needs of the one are more important than the needs of the many. 

The Coast Guard confronts this all the time as does anyone in service to others.  Twelve people will risk their lives to save one because all life, any one life matters.  When it devolves into mere numbers (save ten by killing three), life becomes meaningless.  That's why individuality matters.  What if ten minutes after Shepard kills EDI she could have come up with a way to destroy only the reapers?  What if one of the geth had spontaneously determined a way to do so?  And what if one of the organics whose life you save turns out to be even more evil than the reapers and finds a way to reanimate some of them and decides to become God?  You are presuming that one life is less important than another, based purely upon numbers.

You don't have to justify the decision to anyone, but you must know that what you are doing does what he says it will do and that in doing that you have not done more harm than good.  You can't know that.  And the kind of galaxy left at the end does matter.  All that Shepard said in my game should also matter.  That should form the kind of decision Shepard can and would make, but it doesn't.  Everything comes back to doing what the kid says or insta-death.  Well, current events show that real people would rather die than exist on their enemy's terms.  The kid sets the terms.  If you make a choice, you agree to those terms.  It's called surrender.

[Gewehr_fr]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Gewehr_fr wrote...


I do not agree with Javik's views on pretty much everything, but right here his point still stands.

People are dying by hundred of millions, perhaps billions. You've got the chance to stop it once and for all, yes with the Geth people (yes I do consider them valid life forms) as collateral damage which is very dramatic, and you reject this only chance, the only one you'll ever get.

This might sound harsh, although this is not my intent, but only an idealistic moron would let the cycles continues to avoid making a choice that contraries his beliefs. As this quote says, while your Shepard is standing right there on the citadel, watching every ship get destroyed, every world burn, every single person dying, you should then asks the ghosts of these people if keeping their honor intact mattered, if their sacrifice was worth it. Their silence is indeed your answer.

Your example with the doctor works for Synthesis, which I despise and I agree that Shepard has no right to choose to do such thing, and eventually for control (living under the control of machines) but I fail to see it applied to the Destroy ending. Destroy is exactly the contrary of those, destroy means rejecting the catalyst's doctrine, litteraly refusing, and let the galaxy build a future of its own.

So, I ask you to tell me how killing synthetics does not also serve his purpose if killing organics does?

Because in his logic organics will build synthetics all over again and chaos will return. You're completely destroying his solutions and the catalyst thus FAILS its purpose ! You reject his logic, the solutions he came up with, and trust the galaxy not to fall into "chaos" in the future. It's that simple.

[dreamgazer]

I'm prepared to die if the situation demanded it, but I'd rather not.

[BleedingUranium]

Actually, we built the Crucible, he's just a glorified doorman. A doorman with an agenda, but still just a doorman.

If you take the game literally, then the kid is not lying to you at all, and all three choices do exactly what they say they do. No reason not to pick Destroy, at the very least.

If you take the game from an IT point of view, Destroy is not one of the kid's options, it's a product of Shepard's subconscious and the kid cannot hide it or make it go away, the best he can do is convince you it's a bad idea, and that his options are better.

[3DandBeyond]

BleedingUranium wrote...

You're saying we shouldn't trust the kid, but then going on about how his motive is to protect organics from synthetics by killing them... or something. Why should I trust that? Why should I believe that's he true purpose and goal?

See, I'm not the one proving I'd trust him.  I don't believe a thing he says, but you do.  You think his choices are real.  I don't see them as making any sense.  I'm merely pointing out that if you believe him on anything he says then you must believe all that he says to make a choice.

I said Destroy (if real) doesn't do anything that is that much different from what he is now doing.  Right now he is killing organics to keep synthetics from killing them.  So, why would it be hard to believe he would decide to kill synthetics to keep synthetics from killing organics? 

The other issue is that Leviathan does say he is doing what he's doing because synthetics were killing organics.  Leviathan wanted their thralls to stop making killer synthetics, but they kept making them.  So, the kid sees all synthetics as potential killers, so why wouldn't he want to kill them?  He also says his solution (the reapers) no longer works, so what would he lose if they are destroyed?  Of course, again I say I don't find him credible so that casts doubt on any choice, but in theory believing what he says, the reapers have failed and can't solve the problem.  It's like a junk car-why care about it going to the junkyard if it no longer works?

[BleedingUranium]

That whole post shows that you believe his motives and goals, and note my post above that one.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 17 janvier 2013 - 05:34 .

[3DandBeyond]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Actually, we built the Crucible, he's just a glorified doorman. A doorman with an agenda, but still just a doorman.

If you take the game literally, then the kid is not lying to you at all, and all three choices do exactly what they say they do. No reason not to pick Destroy, at the very least.

If you take the game from an IT point of view, Destroy is not one of the kid's options, it's a product of Shepard's subconscious and the kid cannot hide it or make it go away, the best he can do is convince you it's a bad idea, and that his options are better.

I thought you didn't trust him or do you?

Actually, we built the crucible from plans that came from some unknown source and that were adapted to work with something that was unknown by anyone until Shepard got to the Citadel (the kid).  It's like creating a peripheral for a computer when you don't know what connectors the computer uses, you don't know the language used or the OS and you don't even know the computer exists.  And everyone who worked on the plans after they were created, had to adapt them further to work with this computer that no one knows about.

You have to ask who created the original crucible plans and whoever did knew about the kid and what he is and does.  That means whoever made (and/or adapted the plans) had to know the kid was an AI that controlled the reapers, that the kid was created to solve his problem (synth vs organics), and they had to know all about his programming in order to create code to change him.  Who knew all that?  Leviathan did, but did not make the plans.  Shepard does, but did not make the plans.  That leaves the kid and the reapers.

And the kid has lied and has used indoctrination to get people to do things they would not otherwise do.  If the reapers did anything, the kid controlled them, so they did what he wanted them to do.

Neither one of your points is actually true.  I ask you to go through point by point all that the kid says and all that the kid and the reapers have done and say they have not been about deception at all.  The fact he shows up as a kid is deception in and of itself.

And no, IT does not bear out Destroy as some authentic choice.  That's your interpretation of it, but not the only one.  It's just as likely that the kid could (if you think IT is at all valid) have indoctrinated Shepard into thinking s/he could destroy the reapers.  Nothing proves Destroy is valid at all, except meta-gaming and what comes after is all pretty ridiculous.

If you take the game literally, you actually don't have any proof he's telling the truth at all.

[Wayning_Star]

Folks tends to pander to their ego rather than see the facts of the decision making processes.

Oh well, you'll have that...as the cycle continues as the new reaper hordes moves in...And Sheps the hero.

[Iamjdr]

@ 3D
So your saying I believe what he says and choose to act and destroy the reapers once and for all and you believe what he says but since he's evil you hesitate to act because you can't make the hard choice and doom this cycle to extinction? good to know hope your never the leader of any military engagements.

[3DandBeyond]

BleedingUranium wrote...

That whole post shows that you believe his motives and goals, and note my post above that one.

No it doesn't and this post proves you didn't read what I wrote.

I don't believe him.  I don't even necessarily believe Leviathan.  That means this whole ending is built on shifting sand.  You cannot say who created the crucible plans and how they could be adapted to work with something that is not known to exist.  It is you that believes what he says and not me.  I'm just pointing out the things he has said that you must believe in order to trust him.  He's the only one telling Shepard what the choices will do and by his admission, he has been sending reapers to turn people into goo.  So, he can kill, but he can't lie?

[Wayning_Star]

Fans needs to think more like Pirates... it'd be better for all concerned.

[BleedingUranium]

Destroy cannot be indoctrination, ever. That goes against what indoctrination is.

Destroy could be a trap of some sort, but only in a Deception Theory-like scenario, and that's filled with more holes than the literal ending.

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

That whole post shows that you believe his motives and goals, and note my post above that one.

No it doesn't and this post proves you didn't read what I wrote.

I don't believe him.  I don't even necessarily believe Leviathan.  That means this whole ending is built on shifting sand.  You cannot say who created the crucible plans and how they could be adapted to work with something that is not known to exist.  It is you that believes what he says and not me.  I'm just pointing out the things he has said that you must believe in order to trust him.  He's the only one telling Shepard what the choices will do and by his admission, he has been sending reapers to turn people into goo.  So, he can kill, but he can't lie?

absolute thinker working with shifting sand logistics..hmmm (does not compute)

[BleedingUranium]

3DandBeyond wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

That whole post shows that you believe his motives and goals, and note my post above that one.

No it doesn't and this post proves you didn't read what I wrote.

I don't believe him.  I don't even necessarily believe Leviathan.  That means this whole ending is built on shifting sand.  You cannot say who created the crucible plans and how they could be adapted to work with something that is not known to exist.  It is you that believes what he says and not me.  I'm just pointing out the things he has said that you must believe in order to trust him.  He's the only one telling Shepard what the choices will do and by his admission, he has been sending reapers to turn people into goo.  So, he can kill, but he can't lie?

But now you're getting into non-literal territory. I personally believe the Crucible is a Reaper trap, for the same reasons you laid out, but in IT what we see isn't really the Crucible, it's just a construct in Shepard's mind, so that point is moot.

[Ridwan]

Just destroy it people. Seriously.

When you have a problem and the solution to fix it means you have to dump everyone in a vat (metaphorically speaking, before anyone misunderstands) and turn us all into green peace freaks or become so powerful, yet removed from the world that's it only a question of time before you go full retard and start making new cycles, then neither of those are real solutions.

Just destroy it, sucks for the Geth and EDI sure, but they're just a bunch of talking toasters in the end. We'll make new ones and this time we won't have some lame ass Casper the genocidal ghost kid ripped off from the crappy film Contact trying to kill us cause of his moronic logic.

Modifié par M25105, 17 janvier 2013 - 05:46 .

[Wayning_Star]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Destroy cannot be indoctrination, ever. That goes against what indoctrination is.

Destroy could be a trap of some sort, but only in a Deception Theory-like scenario, and that's filled with more holes than the literal ending.

idoctrination in that instance would take a Leviathan. They'd be all for destroying reaperships.. they don't get along well at all.

[Wayning_Star]

M25105 wrote...

Just destroy it people. Seriously.

When you have a problem and the solution to fix it means you have to dump everyone in a vat (metaphorically speaking, before anyone misunderstands) and turn us all into green peace freaks or become so powerful, yet removed from the world that's it only a question of time before you go full retard and start making new cycles, then neither of those are real solutions.

Just destroy it, sucks for the Geth and EDI sure, but they're just a bunch of talking toasters in the end. We'll make new ones and this time we won't have some lame ass Casper the genocidal ghost kid ripped off from the crappy film Contact trying to kill us cause of his moronic logic.

been there done that don't work.. next!

[Wayning_Star]

[/quote]

non-literal territory. I personally believe the Crucible is a Reaper trap, for the same reasons you laid out, but in IT what we see isn't really the Crucible, it's just a construct in Shepard's mind, so that point is moot.

[/quote]

it's all a reaper trap. But why? That is the RIGHT question.