287 réponses à ce sujet

[Meltemph]

my impression of destroy is that it MUST destroy all technology in the MEU, its the only way to end the chaos.

Many seek to ingnore chaos as some transient techno singularity. But organics created technology to upend nature to have a better chance at survival, a force of pressure induced by evolution. In the MEU, that pressure invoked synthetic life to compete. Following the scripts of evolution and the struggle against nature to survive.

That is 'the chaos'.

You are interpreting a personal bias on the perceived outcomes of situations to justify the decision to try and "bring down chaos". However, the situation in which you are talking about isn't as simple as "synthetics destroy organics", and to assume that the fundamental problem was solved by something as simple as domination or subjugation of a particular DNA string is nothing short of "building a tower to heaven".

Modifié par Meltemph, 17 janvier 2013 - 07:29 .

[Wayning_Star]

hey, I just realized, we're having a dreaded "Endings" discussion without trying to choke each other out?!?

Synthesis...gotta love it!!

[BleedingUranium]

Iamjdr wrote...

So now I need to meta to know that if Shep is given the chance to take out there reapers definitively he would take it? He killed 300000 bartarians just to.slow them down but he won't kill the Geth cause now they are "alive" I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense to me.

Exactly! It's the exact same thing, just on a larger scale, and this time the Reapers are gone for good!

Eterna5 wrote...

At the end of the day, all the people
saying EDI would be okay with Destroy are people who are placing their
personal bias on the character to make themselves feel better about
their choice.

Wrong, she says all of that herself multiple times. But it doesn't really matter, because I'd still pick Destroy even if she didn't want me to, she's a soldier under my command and will do as I say, as will everyone else. And yes, I do consider synthetics as valid as organics, so I'm not trying to make myself feel better at any point here.

I will destroy the Reapers no matter the cost.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 17 janvier 2013 - 07:28 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Wayning_Star wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indoctrination means that your goals align with those of the Reapers'. Unless one of the Reapers' goals is to destroy all Reapers, then Destroy can't be indoctrination, this isn't my opinion, that's how it works.

Indoctrination is used to promote and support harvest, that is the reaper perogative/core directive. The catalyst is more complicated in it's motives. Many think it's up to something, and that something is only to end the chaos.

How many Sheps actually KNOW what the chaos really is? 

It never says what the chaos really is. It is determined to bring order to the chaos before the chaos arrives. It says that synthetics will wipe out all organic life. That is quite a bold statement and quite a hyperbole. It doesn't say all advanced organic life. It says ALL organic life, and that means down to the virus level.

How does it know this? It doesn't. It is one of many projected paths. So we have to take it with a grain of salt. He's basically a salesman. He's selling you Synthesis. That's his top of the line product. His second best product is Control. His bottom end product is Destroy, but soon your children will build synthetics and the cycle will begin again.

Let's look at that last segment. What does he mean by that? Does he mean that the harvest will begin again? Does this imply that he left the old standby machines, those originals, in dark space, as reserves, just in case so he can bring them in at another time if this fleet gets destroyed by the Crucible?

The Crucible sets technology back far enough so that civilizations will forget about the reapers. They will become a legend or a myth. The civilizations themselves will take credit for building the Mass Relay network when they finish reconstructing it while Starbrat sit comfortably protected in his little hide away in the Citadel... waiting.

[Wayning_Star]

Meltemph wrote...

ignoring chaos is a dangerous precident.. Look where it got the Leviathan..

Hmm? Chaos is what it is, there is no such thing as avoiding it. To assume the ability to predict is to assume the abilities of a god or God. None of the endings took care of the fundamental idea of chaos, they only chose to change what that chaos entails. You effectively created a new galaxy with out taking care of a supposed problem(chaos).

oh no.. I don't even wanna go there.. you'd get soooo bored with my take on it you'd probably hope for Ninja Stan.

[3DandBeyond]

Meltemph wrote...

ignoring chaos is a dangerous precident.. Look where it got the Leviathan..

Hmm? Chaos is what it is, there is no such thing as avoiding it. To assume the ability to predict is to assume the abilities of a god or God. None of the endings took care of the fundamental idea of chaos, they only chose to change what that chaos entails. You effectively created a new galaxy with out taking care of a supposed problem(chaos).

Yes, and the problem is one of agreeing that all chaos is bad and that all order is good.  Or that conflict is bad and that agreement is always good.  Neither is true.  Chaos/order, Conflict/agreement are all neutral.  There can be bad and good versions of each.  Only a computer would "think" that order is preferable to chaos, so it seeks to control the variables, to create a known thing that fits its narrow view of things.  Chaos is a force for change, sometimes good.  The alternative is stagnation and a kind of warped idea of order.  True symmetry is order to the extreme, but symmetry is not always or evey beautiful.  It's that thing that is out of place that makes something wonderful and beautiful.  The kid is a program, a very warped one and he can't see that chaos creates variety so he needs to stomp that out.  He can't see that conflict can be disagreement that can be used to formulate new ideas and to find new ways to see things or many ways to solve problems.

[WYLDMAXX]

Geth are the antagonists in ME1 and parts of ME2 but all of sudden they become everyone's best friend at the end of ME3.   


As for EDI, she died because the Alliance doesn't follow a basic standards for backing up essential software.

[Iamjdr]

Who ever said I think it makes sense for him to kill organics to keep synthetics from killing them? That's not even what he said they do anyways they said are saving them by storing them in reaper form.

[Meltemph]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

ignoring chaos is a dangerous precident.. Look where it got the Leviathan..

Hmm? Chaos is what it is, there is no such thing as avoiding it. To assume the ability to predict is to assume the abilities of a god or God. None of the endings took care of the fundamental idea of chaos, they only chose to change what that chaos entails. You effectively created a new galaxy with out taking care of a supposed problem(chaos).

Yes, and the problem is one of agreeing that all chaos is bad and that all order is good.  Or that conflict is bad and that agreement is always good.  Neither is true.  Chaos/order, Conflict/agreement are all neutral.  There can be bad and good versions of each.  Only a computer would "think" that order is preferable to chaos, so it seeks to control the variables, to create a known thing that fits its narrow view of things.  Chaos is a force for change, sometimes good.  The alternative is stagnation and a kind of warped idea of order.  True symmetry is order to the extreme, but symmetry is not always or evey beautiful.  It's that thing that is out of place that makes something wonderful and beautiful.  The kid is a program, a very warped one and he can't see that chaos creates variety so he needs to stomp that out.  He can't see that conflict can be disagreement that can be used to formulate new ideas and to find new ways to see things or many ways to solve problems.

Which is why I say, the only rational choice, no matter how it is presented(since our choices are limited) is destroy.  If someone picks a different choice, that is fine, but the other choices are far less rational(which again is fine for the indivudal, we are talking about a game here).

Modifié par Meltemph, 17 janvier 2013 - 07:35 .

[Wayning_Star]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indoctrination means that your goals align with those of the Reapers'. Unless one of the Reapers' goals is to destroy all Reapers, then Destroy can't be indoctrination, this isn't my opinion, that's how it works.

Indoctrination is used to promote and support harvest, that is the reaper perogative/core directive. The catalyst is more complicated in it's motives. Many think it's up to something, and that something is only to end the chaos.

How many Sheps actually KNOW what the chaos really is? 

It never says what the chaos really is. It is determined to bring order to the chaos before the chaos arrives. It says that synthetics will wipe out all organic life. That is quite a bold statement and quite a hyperbole. It doesn't say all advanced organic life. It says ALL organic life, and that means down to the virus level.

How does it know this? It doesn't. It is one of many projected paths. So we have to take it with a grain of salt. He's basically a salesman. He's selling you Synthesis. That's his top of the line product. His second best product is Control. His bottom end product is Destroy, but soon your children will build synthetics and the cycle will begin again.

Let's look at that last segment. What does he mean by that? Does he mean that the harvest will begin again? Does this imply that he left the old standby machines, those originals, in dark space, as reserves, just in case so he can bring them in at another time if this fleet gets destroyed by the Crucible?

The Crucible sets technology back far enough so that civilizations will forget about the reapers. They will become a legend or a myth. The civilizations themselves will take credit for building the Mass Relay network when they finish reconstructing it while Starbrat sit comfortably protected in his little hide away in the Citadel... waiting.

but, you forgot that the organic Leviathan designed the catalyst for that purpose. They couldn't of known it would take an intitive and become part of that problem by harvesting them. The cat figured out that nature is the reason for the chaos, as nature IS chaos, or beings of all stripe wouldn't be so set on creating tools to compete with nature/space'n such. Organics, being (supposedly) OF nature, or 'natural'(not totally synthetic) created the intelligence who 'decided' to become the catalyst, as the ultimate tool to upend nature. It didn't really know that tho, as nature is loath to give up such secrets. Most scientist will agree.

[Meltemph]

The cat figured out that nature is the reason for the chaos, as nature IS chaos, or beings of all stripe wouldn't be so set on creating tools to compete with nature/space'n such. Organics, being (supposedly) OF nature, or 'natural'(not totally synthetic) created the intelligence who 'decided' to become the catalyst, as the ultimate tool to upend nature. It didn't really know that tho, as nature is loath to give up such secrets. Most scientist will agree.

The "chaos" was the synthetic vs organic debate, but at its base it isnt that, at all.

We know that the Reapers are, essentially, the physical representation of the Leviathan, in the DLC we learned the cultural and sociological mentality behind the Leviathan which was:

1. To subjugate all forms of organics to their will, through domination and mind control.

2. Leviathan dictated the course of these organics they were in charge of.

3. Their desire was to be lords over all their domain(the galaxy).

4. Their thralls all had a propencity to create synthetics that would in the end turn on them.

5. We learn in the ME series that synthetics dont turn on them because AI's are evil, but when they are used as slaves(essntially the difference between EDI and the Geth).

6. Leviathan ruled over their thralls with an iron fist, and used them as nothing more then tools(much like how the Quarians used the Geth).

7. Slavery leads to the inevitable end of the slave rebelling against their masters(as being proven in the ME universe by number 5)

8. Leviathan created the catalyst to figure out how to prevent their tools(Organic thralls), tools(synthetics) from destroying them.

9. The catalyst figures out that the only way to prevent the tools(synthetics) from destroying the tools(organic thralls to the Leviathan), was to reap the tools(Organics) that were creating the tools(synthetics) that wiped them out.

10. The catalyst realized that the only way to eliminate the tools(synthetics) from wiping out the Leviathans tools(organics) on a permanent basis, was to kill the organic(Levithan) event that was causing the tools(organics) from creating tools(synthetics) that would wipe them out.

11. The implications of 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 10 indicate that the constant that created the cyclical trap of slaves destroying slaves, was to take out the slaver. The sociological constant that was causing the inevitable conflict was the embodyment of the physical manifestation of the reapers, the Leviathen.

12. The Leviathan are the "manifestation of the synthetic conflict"; the Leviathan's sociological impact on the galaxy, hence the only conclusion the catalyst came to, based on who created him was: Slave owners must be destroyed, so their tools dont destroy all slave owners.

[3DandBeyond]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

So now I need to meta to know that if Shep is given the chance to take out there reapers definitively he would take it? He killed 300000 bartarians just to.slow them down but he won't kill the Geth cause now they are "alive" I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense to me.

Exactly! It's the exact same thing, just on a larger scale, and this time the Reapers are gone for good!

Eterna5 wrote...

At the end of the day, all the people
saying EDI would be okay with Destroy are people who are placing their
personal bias on the character to make themselves feel better about
their choice.

Wrong, she says all of that herself multiple times. But it doesn't really matter, because I'd still pick Destroy even if she didn't want me to, she's a soldier under my command and will do as I say, as will everyone else. And yes, I do consider synthetics as valid as organics, so I'm not trying to make myself feel better at any point here.

I will destroy the Reapers no matter the cost.

It's one point that Eterna5 and I agree on.  I do think it's used by people to feel better and it's done by ignoring the reality of the situation and what goes on in the story.  Shepard is say, a soldier and the last thing a soldier will do is to shoot someone under their command in the face to suit the whims of the enemy.  A soldier would instead say, we stick together, no one left behind, we will all go down together, and so on.  A real soldier will not purposedly target allies to fix the enemy's problem.  There's a real lack of logic here.  The enemy glow boy is telling Shepard to either kill him/herself (thus weakening the resistance) or kill a huge group of allies (doing the same thing), and let's all justify it by pointing out that EDI said she was willing to die.  Well of course she was-that was what her free will was about.  The point is in how you determine to best use the assets you have-do you have a reasonable expectation that destroying billions of your allies will help especially when the kid even says it will only temporarily do so? 

[Wayning_Star]

Meltemph wrote...

The cat figured out that nature is the reason for the chaos, as nature IS chaos, or beings of all stripe wouldn't be so set on creating tools to compete with nature/space'n such. Organics, being (supposedly) OF nature, or 'natural'(not totally synthetic) created the intelligence who 'decided' to become the catalyst, as the ultimate tool to upend nature. It didn't really know that tho, as nature is loath to give up such secrets. Most scientist will agree.

The "chaos" was the synthetic vs organic debate, but at its base it isnt that, at all.

We know that the Reapers are, essentially, the physical representation of the Leviathan, in the DLC we learned the cultural and sociological mentality behind the Leviathan which was:

1. To subjugate all forms of organics to their will, through domination and mind control.

2. Leviathan dictated the course of these organics they were in charge of.

3. Their desire was to be lords over all their domain(the galaxy).

4. Their thralls all had a propencity to create synthetics that would in the end turn on them.

5. We learn in the ME series that synthetics dont turn on them because AI's are evil, but when they are used as slaves(essntially the difference between EDI and the Geth).

6. Leviathan ruled over their thralls with an iron fist, and used them as nothing more then tools(much like how the Quarians used the Geth).

7. Slavery leads to the inevitable end of the slave rebelling against their masters(as being proven in the ME universe by number 5)

8. Leviathan created the catalyst to figure out how to prevent their tools(Organic thralls), tools(synthetics) from destroying them.

9. The catalyst figures out that the only way to prevent the tools(synthetics) from destroying the tools(organic thralls to the Leviathan), was to reap the tools(Organics) that were creating the tools(synthetics) that wiped them out.

10. The catalyst realized that the only way to eliminate the tools(synthetics) from wiping out the Leviathans tools(organics) on a permanent basis, was to kill the organic(Levithan) event that was causing the tools(organics) from creating tools(synthetics) that would wipe them out.

11. The implications of 1, 2, 5, 6, 7, 8 and 10 indicate that the constant that created the cyclical trap of slaves destroying slaves, was to take out the slaver. The sociological constant that was causing the inevitable conflict was the embodyment of the physical manifestation of the reapers, the Leviathen.

12. The Leviathan are the "manifestation of the synthetic conflict"; the Leviathan's sociological impact on the galaxy, hence the only conclusion the catalyst came to, based on who created him was: Slave owners must be destroyed, so their tools dont destroy all slave owners.

peel the facts like an onion. see the basis, not the obvious reality there. Its all about the "nature" of things. Intellect and how it must deal with nature to survive. Doesn't matter what kind of physical being it is. Even if all organic beings were gone, nature would still 'demand' stuff from them(survivors) to permit their existience.

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 17 janvier 2013 - 07:44 .

[Meltemph]

3DandBeyond wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Iamjdr wrote...

So now I need to meta to know that if Shep is given the chance to take out there reapers definitively he would take it? He killed 300000 bartarians just to.slow them down but he won't kill the Geth cause now they are "alive" I'm sorry but that doesn't make sense to me.

Exactly! It's the exact same thing, just on a larger scale, and this time the Reapers are gone for good!

Eterna5 wrote...

At the end of the day, all the people
saying EDI would be okay with Destroy are people who are placing their
personal bias on the character to make themselves feel better about
their choice.

Wrong, she says all of that herself multiple times. But it doesn't really matter, because I'd still pick Destroy even if she didn't want me to, she's a soldier under my command and will do as I say, as will everyone else. And yes, I do consider synthetics as valid as organics, so I'm not trying to make myself feel better at any point here.

I will destroy the Reapers no matter the cost.

It's one point that Eterna5 and I agree on.  I do think it's used by people to feel better and it's done by ignoring the reality of the situation and what goes on in the story.  Shepard is say, a soldier and the last thing a soldier will do is to shoot someone under their command in the face to suit the whims of the enemy.  A soldier would instead say, we stick together, no one left behind, we will all go down together, and so on.  A real soldier will not purposedly target allies to fix the enemy's problem.  There's a real lack of logic here.  The enemy glow boy is telling Shepard to either kill him/herself (thus weakening the resistance) or kill a huge group of allies (doing the same thing), and let's all justify it by pointing out that EDI said she was willing to die.  Well of course she was-that was what her free will was about.  The point is in how you determine to best use the assets you have-do you have a reasonable expectation that destroying billions of your allies will help especially when the kid even says it will only temporarily do so? 

The Catalyst is a non sequitur, specifically, when it comes to determining what the most rational choice is.

[Meltemph]

peel the facts like an onion. see the basis, not the obvious reality there. Its all about the "nature" of things. Intellect and how it must deal with nature to survive. Doesn't matter what kind of physical being it is. Even if all organic beings were gone, nature would still 'demand' stuff from them to permit their existience.

Huh? The "nature" of things isn't a constant and isn't the same across the board. I'm not sure what you are trying to infer here, other then you think it is possible to warp reality into the shape of your own mind.

[3DandBeyond]

Iamjdr wrote...

Who ever said I think it makes sense for him to kill organics to keep synthetics from killing them? That's not even what he said they do anyways they said are saving them by storing them in reaper form.

Yes, that is what he says.  Except he says he is ascending and harvesting advanced organics to keep synthetics from killing all organics, which on its face is ridiculous.  He knows he is killing but mitigates it by saying ascending and harvesting.  It's ridiculous to think that synthetics will just always become killer robots and will destroy all organics, as shotgunjulia explained, that means destroying viruses, goldfish, and earthworms, as well as daisies and peanuts.  Logic is supposed to be logical.

The kid says that synthetics will destroy organics, so he destroys organics (the advanced variety) to keep synthetics from destroying all organics.  So, it is just as likely that he may have deduced that killing synthetics before they kill organics might work better.  People in these forums have asked that same question, that if the problem is synthetics killing organics, then why kill organics.

The kid knows he's destroying lives (killing) because he did that to his creators.  It's the whole issue.  He destroyed his own creators and he said he had to, and he's doing the exact same thing to organics that he did to his creators.  He also is not ascending everybody.  Even the kid whose image he uses was not ascended, he was obliterated in a destroyed shuttle.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 17 janvier 2013 - 07:48 .

[shodiswe]

Everyone on that ship better be prepared to die, ... correction everyone in the galaxy better be prepared to die on some level, thoguh they shoudn't just give up ofcurse. Things don't look too bright tbh.

[Wayning_Star]

Meltemph wrote...

peel the facts like an onion. see the basis, not the obvious reality there. Its all about the "nature" of things. Intellect and how it must deal with nature to survive. Doesn't matter what kind of physical being it is. Even if all organic beings were gone, nature would still 'demand' stuff from them to permit their existience.

Huh? The "nature" of things isn't a constant and isn't the same across the board. I'm not sure what you are trying to infer here, other then you think it is possible to warp reality into the shape of your own mind.

but it is, or the MEU wouldn't exist...ever.

science fiction is proof postive that nature is at work at all times. Nature does the shaping of minds. The catayst lost it's way on just how far to go with that reality..and decide it can change it. But then, organics invented the catalyst..don't that beat all?

Why would they do that?

[3DandBeyond]

@Meltemph,
The whole thing is that Leviathan makes all of this much more ridiculous. They created the kid because those they controlled apparently were not controlled enough. They kept creating killer robots-but in Leviathan it's stated the synthetics the enthralled ones created kept killing them and didn't go after Leviathan to get them out of their enslaved state. Leviathan wanted to keep their thralls alive so they could pay them tribute.

Bottom line is Leviathan couldn't stop those they controlled from creating synthetics that killed them, so Leviathan created a synthetic that they didn't control that killed them. It's idiotic. First rule when creating a synthetic to keep synthetics from killing people, is to make it so it can't kill you. But this is such a timeworn and stupid story that was so out of hand with the whole concept of the geth as an individualistic race of synthetics, that it is just not acceptable.

It all comes down to killer robots and some power hungry AI (open the pod bay doors, Hal) that doesn't quite understand what's going on, is behind a lot of killing.

The real story behind all of this and the one that is ignored at the end is that of the geth and that they determined to be alive and did understand a lot more about organics than the kid seems to. The story of the geth is ignored at the end, but one of the choices requires Shepard to blast them out of existence just because.

[Wayning_Star]

Step back nature, I'm like totally technological...what'a yah think of those apples.

(key in garden of eden,etc.)

[3DandBeyond]

shodiswe wrote...

Everyone on that ship better be prepared to die, ... correction everyone in the galaxy better be prepared to die on some level, thoguh they shoudn't just give up ofcurse. Things don't look too bright tbh.

Ha, being prepared to die or being sent into battle and dying is a lot different from your commander pointing a gun at your head and killing you because the enemy says it's one solution to his own problem.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Wayning_Star wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indoctrination means that your goals align with those of the Reapers'. Unless one of the Reapers' goals is to destroy all Reapers, then Destroy can't be indoctrination, this isn't my opinion, that's how it works.

Indoctrination is used to promote and support harvest, that is the reaper perogative/core directive. The catalyst is more complicated in it's motives. Many think it's up to something, and that something is only to end the chaos.

How many Sheps actually KNOW what the chaos really is? 

It never says what the chaos really is. It is determined to bring order to the chaos before the chaos arrives. It says that synthetics will wipe out all organic life. That is quite a bold statement and quite a hyperbole. It doesn't say all advanced organic life. It says ALL organic life, and that means down to the virus level.

How does it know this? It doesn't. It is one of many projected paths. So we have to take it with a grain of salt. He's basically a salesman. He's selling you Synthesis. That's his top of the line product. His second best product is Control. His bottom end product is Destroy, but soon your children will build synthetics and the cycle will begin again.

Let's look at that last segment. What does he mean by that? Does he mean that the harvest will begin again? Does this imply that he left the old standby machines, those originals, in dark space, as reserves, just in case so he can bring them in at another time if this fleet gets destroyed by the Crucible?

The Crucible sets technology back far enough so that civilizations will forget about the reapers. They will become a legend or a myth. The civilizations themselves will take credit for building the Mass Relay network when they finish reconstructing it while Starbrat sit comfortably protected in his little hide away in the Citadel... waiting.

but, you forgot that the organic Leviathan designed the catalyst for that purpose. They couldn't of known it would take an intitive and become part of that problem by harvesting them. The cat figured out that nature is the reason for the chaos, as nature IS chaos, or beings of all stripe wouldn't be so set on creating tools to compete with nature/space'n such. Organics, being (supposedly) OF nature, or 'natural'(not totally synthetic) created the intelligence who 'decided' to become the catalyst, as the ultimate tool to upend nature. It didn't really know that tho, as nature is loath to give up such secrets. Most scientist will agree.

Of course nature is chaos. Chaos is required for evolution to exist. Chaos is not complete randomness and disorder.

This "cat" also figured out the timing for its intervention. It intervenes just when the organics turn the tide against the synthetics in their conflicts, because once the conflict is over, the organics will surpass it, and that is unacceptable.

The other thing that really doesn't make any sense is that the rarity of worlds that can support life let alone evolve advanced lifeforms in the galaxy are pretty rare. By harvesting and stripping them of all the resources already mined from them it kills entire worlds leaving the cockroaches and rats behind. That is something that cannot be forgiven.

Then it leaves plans for the Crucible around so that the next cycle can find them and occupy themselves building it. The Crucible is a test for the cycle to see if it is ready to do something the Catalyst cannot do: Synthesize the galaxy. If the cycle can run the gauntlet with the crucible to the Citadel, attach the Crucible then get someone to the panel, they will speak with the avatar of the reapers.

In this way the catalyst brings order to the chaos by halting natural evolution and  it now progresses along lines it desires.

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

@Meltemph,
The whole thing is that Leviathan makes all of this much more ridiculous. They created the kid because those they controlled apparently were not controlled enough. They kept creating killer robots-but in Leviathan it's stated the synthetics the enthralled ones created kept killing them and didn't go after Leviathan to get them out of their enslaved state. Leviathan wanted to keep their thralls alive so they could pay them tribute.

Bottom line is Leviathan couldn't stop those they controlled from creating synthetics that killed them, so Leviathan created a synthetic that they didn't control that killed them. It's idiotic. First rule when creating a synthetic to keep synthetics from killing people, is to make it so it can't kill you. But this is such a timeworn and stupid story that was so out of hand with the whole concept of the geth as an individualistic race of synthetics, that it is just not acceptable.

It all comes down to killer robots and some power hungry AI (open the pod bay doors, Hal) that doesn't quite understand what's going on, is behind a lot of killing.

The real story behind all of this and the one that is ignored at the end is that of the geth and that they determined to be alive and did understand a lot more about organics than the kid seems to. The story of the geth is ignored at the end, but one of the choices requires Shepard to blast them out of existence just because.

yeah, that's where the post ending idea I got about destroy neeeeeding to wipe out all tech in the MEU, not just the parts that irritated the organic compendium. Life is selfish, it's evolution in progress.

[Meltemph]

but it is, or the MEU wouldn't exist...ever.

science fiction is proof postive that nature is at work at all times. Nature does the shaping of minds. The catayst lost it's way on just how far to go with that reality..and decide it can change it. But then, organics invented the catalyst..don't that beat all?

Why would they do that?

I'm not trying to be mean here, but you are all over the place and not making much sense. I'm going to assume you think scifi has some specific nature in mind when they make stories, but then that would be a sociological thing... So ya, I have no clue where you are trying to go with this.

@3D

The Leviathan actually help make more sense of the story, but I'm unsure if they(BW) meant to do it or not, in the way they did it. They effectively admited that the synthetics eventually destroying all organics is a misnomer, and something that wasnt really ever a problem, outside of what the Leviathan did.

I can understand not believing BW had any intention of doing it, and honestly, based on a lot of parts in the story, I tend to agree. That said, I can always hope the ending gets changed/retconed.

Considering my biggest problem with the game was the crucible, I'm not one to defend the writers intent only trying to find some rationality in the intent of some writers.

[Wayning_Star]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Indoctrination means that your goals align with those of the Reapers'. Unless one of the Reapers' goals is to destroy all Reapers, then Destroy can't be indoctrination, this isn't my opinion, that's how it works.

Indoctrination is used to promote and support harvest, that is the reaper perogative/core directive. The catalyst is more complicated in it's motives. Many think it's up to something, and that something is only to end the chaos.

How many Sheps actually KNOW what the chaos really is? 

It never says what the chaos really is. It is determined to bring order to the chaos before the chaos arrives. It says that synthetics will wipe out all organic life. That is quite a bold statement and quite a hyperbole. It doesn't say all advanced organic life. It says ALL organic life, and that means down to the virus level.

How does it know this? It doesn't. It is one of many projected paths. So we have to take it with a grain of salt. He's basically a salesman. He's selling you Synthesis. That's his top of the line product. His second best product is Control. His bottom end product is Destroy, but soon your children will build synthetics and the cycle will begin again.

Let's look at that last segment. What does he mean by that? Does he mean that the harvest will begin again? Does this imply that he left the old standby machines, those originals, in dark space, as reserves, just in case so he can bring them in at another time if this fleet gets destroyed by the Crucible?

The Crucible sets technology back far enough so that civilizations will forget about the reapers. They will become a legend or a myth. The civilizations themselves will take credit for building the Mass Relay network when they finish reconstructing it while Starbrat sit comfortably protected in his little hide away in the Citadel... waiting.

but, you forgot that the organic Leviathan designed the catalyst for that purpose. They couldn't of known it would take an intitive and become part of that problem by harvesting them. The cat figured out that nature is the reason for the chaos, as nature IS chaos, or beings of all stripe wouldn't be so set on creating tools to compete with nature/space'n such. Organics, being (supposedly) OF nature, or 'natural'(not totally synthetic) created the intelligence who 'decided' to become the catalyst, as the ultimate tool to upend nature. It didn't really know that tho, as nature is loath to give up such secrets. Most scientist will agree.

Of course nature is chaos. Chaos is required for evolution to exist. Chaos is not complete randomness and disorder.

This "cat" also figured out the timing for its intervention. It intervenes just when the organics turn the tide against the synthetics in their conflicts, because once the conflict is over, the organics will surpass it, and that is unacceptable.

The other thing that really doesn't make any sense is that the rarity of worlds that can support life let alone evolve advanced lifeforms in the galaxy are pretty rare. By harvesting and stripping them of all the resources already mined from them it kills entire worlds leaving the cockroaches and rats behind. That is something that cannot be forgiven.

Then it leaves plans for the Crucible around so that the next cycle can find them and occupy themselves building it. The Crucible is a test for the cycle to see if it is ready to do something the Catalyst cannot do: Synthesize the galaxy. If the cycle can run the gauntlet with the crucible to the Citadel, attach the Crucible then get someone to the panel, they will speak with the avatar of the reapers.

In this way the catalyst brings order to the chaos by halting natural evolution and  it now progresses along lines it desires.

but evoluton is apparently natural, as in selection, or some claim. Intellect interacts with nature via physical attatchment to nature,as being part of nature, and evolves, supposedly. Nature always has the upper hand, as time it's self is on it's side. But in the short run it would seem a better way to address the catalyst gambit, an immediate threat of the nature of organic intellect supersceding nature, if only for the time being. Synthesis isn't halting nature as it's just another form of evolution of intelligence/being.

Unless you figure nature to have intellect?