174 réponses à ce sujet

[batlin]

First, the idea that DA2 is a personal story is pretty head-scratching. In a personal story you learn about the lead character's life, get insight into why the character is the way he/she is, and that character has an arc. In other words, the character is a fundamentally different person at the end of the story than they are at the beginning. A Christmas Carol is a personal story. Planescape: Torment is a personal story. Dragon Age 2 is most certainly not a personal story. Hawke is not a different person at the end of the game than he/she is at the beginning. Hawke's demeanor does not change after things happen to his family members outside of a couple dialogue options that have no real effect on the narrative. We learn nothing about Hawke's past beyond how his parents fled to Ferelden to escape the Templars and grew up in Lothering. Hawke by design is a blank slate for you to mold into either a diplomatic, "funny", or aggressive person so they obviously could not construct a backstory that alludes to Hawke having a specific personality or else the character would be incongruent. DA2 is no more personal a story for Hawke than DA:O was for the Warden.

Second, the praise it gets for party members having "lives that don't revolve around the main character". This is especially confusing because as far as I can tell, your party just kind of remain in stasis in their dwellings whenever Hawke isn't around. Sure, Varric says he's tracking down Bartrand, and yes, Aveline gets a job in the guard, but the majority of the party just seems to hang out in one area for years on end without accomplishing anything important until Hawke shows up and activates their subplot. What exactly does Fenris do when he's not sitting in that dark mansion? What does Merrill do when she's not studying the Eluvian or getting furniture for her shack? Does Isabela have a job at the tavern she's always in, or does she just hit on drunk dudes all day every day? My point is that the idea the companions actually have lives beyond Hawke's purview is not beleivable whatsoever, because we see almost no evidence that they do. Even their romantic interests are suspended until Hawke decides to follow up on their encounters three years after the fact. In essence, giving each character their own dwelling only makes for a less convenient campsite that we had in DA:O, only your friends will only talk to you when your map allows them to.

Can anyone justify these praises? Because I'm stumped.

Modifié par batlin, 17 janvier 2013 - 11:04 .

[Celene II]

I agree with you but I am sure someone is going to make a statement that a personal story does not require change. Just that it focuses intimately upon one individual. Which DA2 does focus far more on Hawke then DAO did on the Warden.

[batlin]

Celene II wrote...

I agree with you but I am sure someone is going to make a statement that a personal story does not require change. Just that it focuses intimately upon one individual. Which DA2 does focus far more on Hawke then DAO did on the Warden.

I don't see in what way DA2 focuses more on Hawke than DA:O on the Warden. I suppose it differs by the origin you pick, but the human noble hits every point that DA2 does in terms of family strife, and also handles the revenge subplot way better. You also don't skip over several years of the Warden's life. 

[Fredward]

These are common praises? 0_o

[daft inquisitor]

Foopy, they actually are, from what I've seen.

While mostly I don't care for batlin's posts (I think most of them are empty natter), this one I actually agree with a lot.

Also, we do discover quite a bit about Hawke's background, or at least his family background, making it have hints of a "personal story", but I'm with you that they kind of failed in the execution.

[Plaintiff]

In breaking news, Batlin has more complaints about DA2. This is a great shock to nobody.

[batlin]

Plaintiff wrote...

In breaking news, Batlin has more complaints about DA2. This is a great shock to nobody.

Would you like it better if I ignored all of DA2's problems and just gave empty, flaccid praise to it?

[Plaintiff]

batlin wrote...

Plaintiff wrote...

In breaking news, Batlin has more complaints about DA2. This is a great shock to nobody.

Would you like it better if I ignored all of DA2's problems and just gave empty, flaccid praise to it?

I don't agree with your assessment of DA2, so I don't really care what you think its "problems" are.

But I'd be more likely to take your "concerns" about these aspects of DA2 more seriously if you hadn't already complained incessantly about every other aspect of the game. As it is, I don't believe you''re interested in serious discussion. I think you just want to get back up on your soapbox.

[fchopin]

I saw no personal story on Hawke in the game, all the Wardens in DAO were more personal than Hawke so i don’t understand where this personal story comes from.

The DA2 companions were mostly boring and one dimensional apart from Varic so i hope we don’t see anything like it in DA3.

[Sir JK]

*takes bait*

Regarding if DA2 is a personal story? It absolutely is. As is Planscape Torment and a Christmas Carol as you say. But PT is about personal revelation, it is about an internal journey to find out who you are. A Christmas Carol is a personal story about facing one's vices and becoming a better person. So what is DA2? It is a bit of a tricky question because by merit of being a roleplaying game, the core of the personal growth have to happen on your end of the interface. If you do not let your Hawke grow then your Hawke won't grow and the story will fall flat.
But the structure of the narrative is still very much that of a personal story, because all the little quests are more events to suffer through or obstacles on your inner journey. The game constantly flips plans over, questions assumtions made, shatters perceptions and asks you how you feel about it. That is what makes it personal. Contrast it with DAO, in virtually every instance you're faced with a metaphorical monster that needs to be overcome or a treasure that needs to be found and by using your inner strength you achieve success and solve the problem. That journey is external, it's about overcoming challenges from the outside.
There's nothing of that in DA2, only the realisation that defeating the monster solves nothing. You're involved in everything, you affect everything... but you cannot solve it. You can only suffer through it and learn from it. The only way to move forward... is to grow. That is why it is a personal story.

The execution leaves a thing or two wanted to be sure, but I think it's definantely a story that's worth telling and one that egaged me a lot more than DAO did. Compared to their other games it's very fresh because virtually all of Bioware's games have had the same narrative structure (the external journey), it broke out of the mold and stood out. Unfortunantely it turned out a bit "love-it-or-hate-it".

As for the companions. Like with the narrative structure, the executions left things a bit wanting. It did not work as well as it could have. Mostly, because as you point out, the for the scope of the story there's precious little interaction or cosmetic change. But if you look at your interactions with them, you'll see that virtually nothing they do revolves around you. Not even in the romantic sequences does it centre around you.
Contrast with DAO, you're quite literally the centre of the universe there. Everyone follows you, their relationship with the Quest is through you and the only two people that does not (Sten and Morrigan) happens to have pretty much the same quest. Their lives, from the moment they meet you to the defeat of the archdemon, is revolving around you. There's pretty much nothing else save a few distractions for -you- to overcome.
Merill's life however, centres around dalish heritage and proving to "mom" that she's strong enough to care for herself and her people. Fenris about his inability to move on, Varric about his relationship with his brother, Aveline about finding her sense of self-worth, Isabela about staving of the consequences of her life, Sebastian about his duty and Anders about the conflict between idea and life. While Hawke factors into these stories, they're not defined by Hawke's presence. You're more a fellow traveller than the great arbiter. Which of course ties into the story structure as a whole. You cannot solve their problems, only suffer through them together with them and in the end help them realise the lesson they need to learn.

These two praises are rather abstract and academic, they're not so much about how it ended up on screen as the underlying structures. They go hand in hand, and probably would not fit as well in another combination. The lack of interactivity is not so much the faults of these structures as how they were presented (basically, the same problems you have with these things could also have happened if the story and companions had the same layout as in DAO).

Hope that helps answering your question.

[batlin]

Plaintiff wrote...

I don't agree with your assessment of DA2, so I don't really care what you think its "problems" are.

But I'd be more likely to take your "concerns" about these aspects of DA2 more seriously if you hadn't already complained incessantly about every other aspect of the game. As it is, I don't believe you''re interested in serious discussion. I think you just want to get back up on your soapbox.

So I take it you aren't going to explain why these two aspects of the game are praised?

Also, why are you reacting with so much hostility about criticisms of DA2?

[batlin]

Sir JK wrote...

*takes bait*

Regarding if DA2 is a personal story? It absolutely is. As is Planscape Torment and a Christmas Carol as you say. But PT is about personal revelation, it is about an internal journey to find out who you are. A Christmas Carol is a personal story about facing one's vices and becoming a better person. So what is DA2? It is a bit of a tricky question because by merit of being a roleplaying game, the core of the personal growth have to happen on your end of the interface. If you do not let your Hawke grow then your Hawke won't grow and the story will fall flat.

So then the player must adjust their dialog options according to Hawke's arc? I'm not sure that has the desired effect, because again, you only have three tonalities to choose from.

But the structure of the narrative is still very much that of a personal story, because all the little quests are more events to suffer through or obstacles on your inner journey. The game constantly flips plans over, questions assumtions made, shatters perceptions and asks you how you feel about it. That is what makes it personal. Contrast it with DAO, in virtually every instance you're faced with a metaphorical monster that needs to be overcome or a treasure that needs to be found and by using your inner strength you achieve success and solve the problem. That journey is external, it's about overcoming challenges from the outside.

I'm not sure you're being fair to both sides. Both games involve battles with scary monsters and acquiring treasure, and both place the lead character in moral dilemmas.

There's nothing of that in DA2, only the realisation that defeating the monster solves nothing. You're involved in everything, you affect everything... but you cannot solve it. You can only suffer through it and learn from it. The only way to move forward... is to grow. That is why it is a personal story.

This is a point of contention for me. The only reason Hawke is unable to solve a lot of the problems he/she faces is because they do not give you the option to take obvious steps to solve a problem. They don't let you investigate the Qunari occupation beyond asking them what they want, they don't let you take steps to stop the serial killer even though it's incredibly obvious the person they initially catch is innocent, they don;t give you the option to try and prevent Anders from doing whatever it is he plans on doing even though there's every indication that he has something malicious planned, etc. In short, being unable to stop the inevitable does not make for a good personal story when the only reason the events are inevitable to begin with is that there's an artificial roadblock planted in front of you by the developers. It doesn't make Hawke deeper, it makes Hawke look like a dunce.

Contrast with DAO, you're quite literally the centre of the universe there. Everyone follows you, their relationship with the Quest is through you and the only two people that does not (Sten and Morrigan) happens to have pretty much the same quest. Their lives, from the moment they meet you to the defeat of the archdemon, is revolving around you. There's pretty much nothing else save a few distractions for -you- to overcome.
Merill's life however, centres around dalish heritage and proving to "mom" that she's strong enough to care for herself and her people. Fenris about his inability to move on, Varric about his relationship with his brother, Aveline about finding her sense of self-worth, Isabela about staving of the consequences of her life, Sebastian about his duty and Anders about the conflict between idea and life. While Hawke factors into these stories, they're not defined by Hawke's presence. You're more a fellow traveller than the great arbiter. Which of course ties into the story structure as a whole. You cannot solve their problems, only suffer through them together with them and in the end help them realise the lesson they need to learn.

It looks like you're using the DA2 companions' subplots as indicators that they have lives that do not revolve around you. They are, but then every party member in DA:O has a subplot as well. Alistair's royal heritage has nothing to do with the Warden. Flemeth's book doesn't, nor do Oghren's wife, Sten's quest, Zevran's past with the Crows, Wynne's apprentice, etc.

Again, the party in DA2 claim they have lives outside of Hawke's purview, but there's almost no evidence of that.

Modifié par batlin, 17 janvier 2013 - 12:10 .

[Kidd]

batlin wrote...

First, the idea that DA2 is a personal story is pretty head-scratching.

It's not that kind of personal story you're thinking about. Because you can't really write much of that while allowing the character to be as much of a blank slate as Hawke is - Hawke is essentially the Warden with a set and voiced name instead of a choice of six unvoiced ones after all.

I imagine people are mostly talking about scale and goals. The scale of the perceived conflicts is simply much larger on average in DAO than it is in DA2. Also, if you were to explain what the main goal is, how it is reached and what the outcome of it all is, you'll notice a fair bias between the games.

DAO
Main goal: Stop the archdemon
Reaching the goal: Gain allies and charge the archdemon together
Outcome: The world is saved, thanks to you or a companion

DA2
Main goal: Go from refugee to viscount or the catalyst of change
Reaching the goal: Become the Champion and solve Kirkwall's magic problems
Outcome: The world is changed, because of you or in spite of you

Note how in DAO, everything focuses on the archdemon and the Blight when put in a list like that. In DA2, everything focuses on Hawke and to a lesser extent their family (you could make a case for putting Isabela and Anders in there as well depending on how detailed you want to make it). There are consequences on the scale of the world but the game never tells you this until you stumble upon the consequences yourself. This sets a very different kind of tone for the entire story. DA2 would've felt very differently if Hawke had actively set out to incite or quell a mage rebellion right out of Lothering.

This also ties into one of the potential problems with DA2's narrative. Since you're not supposed to know the outcome beyond what teases you get from Varric's storytelling bits, you need to accept the current subplot (secure your family / look into the Qunari presence / solve the magic problem) as the current main objective at all times. To me, this worked and it lead to so much more of a surprise as I neared the end of act 3. To others, it didn't work and made them feel as if they weren't doing much worthwhile.

batlin wrote...

Second, the praise it gets for party members having "lives that don't revolve around the main character".

Yeah, I don't really get this one that much either. As much as I love that we get three companion quests instead of one to flesh out their characters and follow their plots in realtime rather than mostly hearing about them (this may be what some mean when saying that phrase? kind of a difference between what they say and mean in that case), they do indeed mostly just sit on their butts when they're not in the current party.

The scenes where we go to talk to a character and see a short dialogue between them and another companion are really good and I love having them, but they don't sell me quite enough to allow me to say they indeed live full lives when Hawke isn't there.

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 17 janvier 2013 - 12:18 .

[esper]

Sir JK wrote...

*takes bait*

Regarding if DA2 is a personal story? It absolutely is. As is Planscape Torment and a Christmas Carol as you say. But PT is about personal revelation, it is about an internal journey to find out who you are. A Christmas Carol is a personal story about facing one's vices and becoming a better person. So what is DA2? It is a bit of a tricky question because by merit of being a roleplaying game, the core of the personal growth have to happen on your end of the interface. If you do not let your Hawke grow then your Hawke won't grow and the story will fall flat.
But the structure of the narrative is still very much that of a personal story, because all the little quests are more events to suffer through or obstacles on your inner journey. The game constantly flips plans over, questions assumtions made, shatters perceptions and asks you how you feel about it. That is what makes it personal. Contrast it with DAO, in virtually every instance you're faced with a metaphorical monster that needs to be overcome or a treasure that needs to be found and by using your inner strength you achieve success and solve the problem. That journey is external, it's about overcoming challenges from the outside.
There's nothing of that in DA2, only the realisation that defeating the monster solves nothing. You're involved in everything, you affect everything... but you cannot solve it. You can only suffer through it and learn from it. The only way to move forward... is to grow. That is why it is a personal story.

The execution leaves a thing or two wanted to be sure, but I think it's definantely a story that's worth telling and one that egaged me a lot more than DAO did. Compared to their other games it's very fresh because virtually all of Bioware's games have had the same narrative structure (the external journey), it broke out of the mold and stood out. Unfortunantely it turned out a bit "love-it-or-hate-it".

As for the companions. Like with the narrative structure, the executions left things a bit wanting. It did not work as well as it could have. Mostly, because as you point out, the for the scope of the story there's precious little interaction or cosmetic change. But if you look at your interactions with them, you'll see that virtually nothing they do revolves around you. Not even in the romantic sequences does it centre around you.
Contrast with DAO, you're quite literally the centre of the universe there. Everyone follows you, their relationship with the Quest is through you and the only two people that does not (Sten and Morrigan) happens to have pretty much the same quest. Their lives, from the moment they meet you to the defeat of the archdemon, is revolving around you. There's pretty much nothing else save a few distractions for -you- to overcome.
Merill's life however, centres around dalish heritage and proving to "mom" that she's strong enough to care for herself and her people. Fenris about his inability to move on, Varric about his relationship with his brother, Aveline about finding her sense of self-worth, Isabela about staving of the consequences of her life, Sebastian about his duty and Anders about the conflict between idea and life. While Hawke factors into these stories, they're not defined by Hawke's presence. You're more a fellow traveller than the great arbiter. Which of course ties into the story structure as a whole. You cannot solve their problems, only suffer through them together with them and in the end help them realise the lesson they need to learn.

These two praises are rather abstract and academic, they're not so much about how it ended up on screen as the underlying structures. They go hand in hand, and probably would not fit as well in another combination. The lack of interactivity is not so much the faults of these structures as how they were presented (basically, the same problems you have with these things could also have happened if the story and companions had the same layout as in DAO).

Hope that helps answering your question.

^Sums it up pretty nicely.

[fchopin]

Sir JK wrote...

*takes bait*

 

Sorry but i disagree with you. I knew more about my warden by just doing any one of the origins in DAO than i did playing the whole DA2 game about Hawke.
 
The only personal thing i learned about Hawke was that Hawke killed people for money and he considered life very cheap and never had any control on any important choice in the game. A complete failure as a person.
The companions were even worse. If you take Merill you will find that she can do nothing without Hawke and constantly seeks help as she is completely useless by herself. There is nothing personal about her life, all she does is complain that no one understands her like a 12 year old girl.
 
DAO had companions that could stand on their own feet and were not dependent on the Warden but were just helping the warden.
 
If DA2 is supposed to be personal then i don’t want personal, i like real people with a brain.

[Kidd]

fchopin wrote...

The companions were even worse. If you take Merill you will find that she can do nothing without Hawke and constantly seeks help as she is completely useless by herself. There is nothing personal about her life, all she does is complain that no one understands her like a 12 year old girl.

I suppose you could simplify it like this if you want to. It's not fair if you don't do the same thing with DAO's companions though. For instance, Merrill sits on her butt in between Hawke helping her as much as Wynne isn't dealing with Faith. Things happen off screen to both characters. Off screen we have the bulk of Merrill's research - she only goes to Hawke for specific tasks when she's hit an academic roadblock. Wynne has a lot of contemplation about what the warmth in her body is and why she has it - it is only later she tells the Warden her thoughts after they watch her collapse.

Modifié par KiddDaBeauty, 17 janvier 2013 - 12:25 .

[Plaintiff]

batlin wrote...
So I take it you aren't going to explain why these two aspects of the game are praised?

I'm not a mindreader, so no.

Also, why are you reacting with so much hostility about criticisms of DA2?

I'm not hostile to criticisms. I have my own criticisms.

I'm hostile to you because, as I said, I don't believe you're interested in seriously discussing the game.

[fchopin]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

fchopin wrote...

The companions were even worse. If you take Merill you will find that she can do nothing without Hawke and constantly seeks help as she is completely useless by herself. There is nothing personal about her life, all she does is complain that no one understands her like a 12 year old girl.

I suppose you could simplify it like this if you want to. It's not fair if you don't do the same thing with DAO's companions though. For instance, Merrill sits on her butt in between Hawke helping her as much as Wynne isn't dealing with Faith. Things happen off screen to both characters. Off screen we have the bulk of Merrill's research - she only goes to Hawke for specific tasks when she's hit an academic roadblock. Wynne has a lot of contemplation about what the warmth in her body is and why she has it - it is only later she tells the Warden her thoughts after they watch her collapse.

Yes but Wynne is capable of looking after herself and only goes with the Warden to help out.
If Merril was by herself she would be dead in a few months without someone to guide and help her.

[thebigbad1013]

Sir JK wrote...

*takes bait*

Regarding if DA2 is a personal story? It absolutely is. As is Planscape Torment and a Christmas Carol as you say. But PT is about personal revelation, it is about an internal journey to find out who you are. A Christmas Carol is a personal story about facing one's vices and becoming a better person. So what is DA2? It is a bit of a tricky question because by merit of being a roleplaying game, the core of the personal growth have to happen on your end of the interface. If you do not let your Hawke grow then your Hawke won't grow and the story will fall flat.
But the structure of the narrative is still very much that of a personal story, because all the little quests are more events to suffer through or obstacles on your inner journey. The game constantly flips plans over, questions assumtions made, shatters perceptions and asks you how you feel about it. That is what makes it personal. Contrast it with DAO, in virtually every instance you're faced with a metaphorical monster that needs to be overcome or a treasure that needs to be found and by using your inner strength you achieve success and solve the problem. That journey is external, it's about overcoming challenges from the outside.
There's nothing of that in DA2, only the realisation that defeating the monster solves nothing. You're involved in everything, you affect everything... but you cannot solve it. You can only suffer through it and learn from it. The only way to move forward... is to grow. That is why it is a personal story.

The execution leaves a thing or two wanted to be sure, but I think it's definantely a story that's worth telling and one that egaged me a lot more than DAO did. Compared to their other games it's very fresh because virtually all of Bioware's games have had the same narrative structure (the external journey), it broke out of the mold and stood out. Unfortunantely it turned out a bit "love-it-or-hate-it".

As for the companions. Like with the narrative structure, the executions left things a bit wanting. It did not work as well as it could have. Mostly, because as you point out, the for the scope of the story there's precious little interaction or cosmetic change. But if you look at your interactions with them, you'll see that virtually nothing they do revolves around you. Not even in the romantic sequences does it centre around you.
Contrast with DAO, you're quite literally the centre of the universe there. Everyone follows you, their relationship with the Quest is through you and the only two people that does not (Sten and Morrigan) happens to have pretty much the same quest. Their lives, from the moment they meet you to the defeat of the archdemon, is revolving around you. There's pretty much nothing else save a few distractions for -you- to overcome.
Merill's life however, centres around dalish heritage and proving to "mom" that she's strong enough to care for herself and her people. Fenris about his inability to move on, Varric about his relationship with his brother, Aveline about finding her sense of self-worth, Isabela about staving of the consequences of her life, Sebastian about his duty and Anders about the conflict between idea and life. While Hawke factors into these stories, they're not defined by Hawke's presence. You're more a fellow traveller than the great arbiter. Which of course ties into the story structure as a whole. You cannot solve their problems, only suffer through them together with them and in the end help them realise the lesson they need to learn.

These two praises are rather abstract and academic, they're not so much about how it ended up on screen as the underlying structures. They go hand in hand, and probably would not fit as well in another combination. The lack of interactivity is not so much the faults of these structures as how they were presented (basically, the same problems you have with these things could also have happened if the story and companions had the same layout as in DAO).

Hope that helps answering your question.

Thank you!

I was going to write up this whole thing about these subjects only to find it already summed up perfectly. Kudos!

[thebigbad1013]

fchopin wrote...




Yes but Wynne is capable of looking after herself and only goes with the Warden to help out.
If Merril was by herself she would be dead in a few months without someone to guide and help her.

Perhaps, but Wynne and Merrill are two very different people, at very different stages of their lives. A direct comparison between the two of them seems unfair to me.

[Sir JK]

batlin wrote...

So then the player must adjust their dialog options according to Hawke's arc? I'm not sure that has the desired effect, because again, you only have three tonalities to choose from.

Perhaps, but then you've always only had 3 tonalities to choose from. It's just a lot more obvious now (and possibly jarring). But this is more of a execution issue.

I'm not sure you're being fair to both sides. Both games involve battles with scary monsters and acquiring treasure, and both place the lead character in moral dilemmas.

But once the monster is defeated (or the moral choice choosen) the problem solves itself in DAO. Not even when Meredith dies is the problem solved in DA2.

This is a point of contention for me. The only reason Hawke is unable to solve a lot of the problems he/she faces is because they do not give you the option to take obvious steps to solve a problem. They don't let you investigate the Qunari occupation beyond asking them what they want, they don't let you take steps to stop the serial killer even though it's incredibly obvious the person they initially catch is innocent, they don;t give you the option to try and prevent Anders from doing whatever it is he plans on doing even though there's every indication that he has something malicious planned, etc. In short, being unable to stop the inevitable does not make for a good personal story when the only reason the events are inevitable to begin with is that there's an artificial roadblock planted in front of you by the developers. It doesn't make Hawke deeper, it makes Hawke look like a dunce.

Perhaps, but again this is an execution issue. It has no real bearing on what kind of story it is.
Also... note that most solutions you put up here are reliant on Metaknowledge. You know the Qunari is up to something and you want the option to ask them about it and help them with it, yet both admitting the loss and recieving help to get it would be very dishonourable to the Qunari.
You know the serial killer is at large and wants to keep looking, yet no tracks are available.
You know Anders is planning something, but short of killing him or imprisoning him can you really stop him?

Note how in all these cases you suggested solutions to problems, or more metaphorically: the weapon which with you will kill the monster. These are not monsters to be killed, but events to help you form Hawke. Different story.

But you do have a point. Agency is an issue with DA2. This has no bearing on whether the story was personal or not (as Planescape shows us, it gots lots of agency and is personal). It is an execution issue, not a structural one.

It looks like you're using the DA2 companions' subplots as indicators that they have lives that do not revolve around you. They are, but then every party member in DA:O has a subplot as well. Alistair's royal heritage has nothing to do with the Warden. Flemeth's book doesn't, nor do Oghren's wife, Sten's quest, Zevran's past with the Crows, Wynne's apprentice, etc.

Again, the party in DA2 claim they have lives outside of Hawke's purview, but there's almost no evidence of that.

Also note that all the companion quests in DAO revolves around you solving their problems. Alistair won't accept his royal heritage without you pushing him into it. Morrigan won't recieve the book without you fetching it for her. Ohgren won't rekindle lost love without you guiding him through it. Sten won't regain his honour without you helping him forgive himself, Zevran won't regain his life without you saving it, and Wynne won't ever come to terms with her past without you finding it. It's the same really... you defeating the external foe.

While your interaction is obviously crucial in DA2 as well. You're more of a passenger than the agent. You don't solve their problems (if anything you help them making them worse), it is them growing.

They're different stories, told different ways. You do not have to like them. But apart from the edges being a bit rough (or very rough, if you will), there's no inherent fault with them.

[Kidd]

fchopin wrote...

Yes but Wynne is capable of looking after herself and only goes with the Warden to help out.
If Merril was by herself she would be dead in a few months without someone to guide and help her.

That has nothing to do with the written quality of her character, only what kind of characters you like. It's an entirely different and incredibly much more subjective issue.

[Sir JK]

fchopin wrote...

Sorry but i disagree with you. I knew more about my warden by just doing any one of the origins in DAO than i did playing the whole DA2 game about Hawke.
 
The only personal thing i learned about Hawke was that Hawke killed people for money and he considered life very cheap and never had any control on any important choice in the game. A complete failure as a person.
The companions were even worse. If you take Merill you will find that she can do nothing without Hawke and constantly seeks help as she is completely useless by herself. There is nothing personal about her life, all she does is complain that no one understands her like a 12 year old girl.
 
DAO had companions that could stand on their own feet and were not dependent on the Warden but were just helping the warden.
 
If DA2 is supposed to be personal then i don’t want personal, i like real people with a brain.

I'm not entirely certain in what manner you disagree with me. I was talking about it out of a purely acadmeic viewpoint, that the story of DA2 is one of experiencing rather than overcoming. Or if you will: You cannot win, just learn.

Yet it sounds to me that you disagree with me because you had a more personal connection to the warden. Which is completely fine and one I can understand perfectly. But it was not what I was refering to. It is a bit tricky since the word in this case means two different things.

If I am completely awry in my interpretation of your viewpoint here, please help lead me straight

[Wulfram]

I really don't see much of a personal story. Just a lack of any sort of real main plot. If the player creates for themselves a personal story, then that absence maybe gives it more prominence, but I don't think the game does anything particularly to encourage the creation of such a personal story.

I do think the companions have more of a life outside of the PC. Actually, I sometimes felt a bit left out - how come Fenris goes around having card games with everyone else, but Hawke just gets "Mages are bad, slaves are bad" all the time?

[fchopin]

Sir JK wrote...

I'm not entirely certain in what manner you disagree with me. I was talking about it out of a purely acadmeic viewpoint, that the story of DA2 is one of experiencing rather than overcoming. Or if you will: You cannot win, just learn.

Please explain what you mean by experiencing rather than overcoming, do you mean Hawke or the person playing the game?
We are all experiencing life and it does not matter if we are overcoming something or just relaxing by the pool, both can be personal so how does that differ by what DA2 did.