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[freche]

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

batlin wrote...

First, the idea that DA2 is a personal story is pretty head-scratching.

DAO
Main goal: Stop the archdemon
Reaching the goal: Gain allies and charge the archdemon together
Outcome: The world is saved, thanks to you or a companion

DA2
Main goal: Go from refugee to viscount or the catalyst of change
Reaching the goal: Become the Champion and solve Kirkwall's magic problems
Outcome: The world is changed, because of you or in spite of you

Note how in DAO, everything focuses on the archdemon and the Blight when put in a list like that. In DA2, everything focuses on Hawke and to a lesser extent their family (you could make a case for putting Isabela and Anders in there as well depending on how detailed you want to make it).

This is exactly what I prefered with DA2, the story is about my character (Hawke). Prologue - end of Act 2, things that are done is for personal gain for my character. Act 3 I get dragged into the Mage, Templar conflict because of my previous actions and my high status.

In DAO, I never felt that being part of the Wardens was anything special. Warden was just a convinent title and nothing more. Then the rest of the story is about Blight, Blight, evil monster that wants to destory everything just because it's is evil.
The story is never about me (the Warden). It's not even about me when I kill Howe as a human noble, it's about saving the queen so I can end the blight.

[TallonOverlord]

batlin wrote...

First, the idea that DA2 is a personal story is pretty head-scratching. In a personal story you learn about the lead character's life, get insight into why the character is the way he/she is, and that character has an arc. In other words, the character is a fundamentally different person at the end of the story than they are at the beginning. A Christmas Carol is a personal story. Planescape: Torment is a personal story. Dragon Age 2 is most certainly not a personal story. Hawke is not a different person at the end of the game than he/she is at the beginning. Hawke's demeanor does not change after things happen to his family members outside of a couple dialogue options that have no real effect on the narrative. We learn nothing about Hawke's past beyond how his parents fled to Ferelden to escape the Templars and grew up in Lothering. Hawke by design is a blank slate for you to mold into either a diplomatic, "funny", or aggressive person so they obviously could not construct a backstory that alludes to Hawke having a specific personality or else the character would be incongruent. DA2 is no more personal a story for Hawke than DA:O was for the Warden.

Second, the praise it gets for party members having "lives that don't revolve around the main character". This is especially confusing because as far as I can tell, your party just kind of remain in stasis in their dwellings whenever Hawke isn't around. Sure, Varric says he's tracking down Bartrand, and yes, Aveline gets a job in the guard, but the majority of the party just seems to hang out in one area for years on end without accomplishing anything important until Hawke shows up and activates their subplot. What exactly does Fenris do when he's not sitting in that dark mansion? What does Merrill do when she's not studying the Eluvian or getting furniture for her shack? Does Isabela have a job at the tavern she's always in, or does she just hit on drunk dudes all day every day? My point is that the idea the companions actually have lives beyond Hawke's purview is not beleivable whatsoever, because we see almost no evidence that they do. Even their romantic interests are suspended until Hawke decides to follow up on their encounters three years after the fact. In essence, giving each character their own dwelling only makes for a less convenient campsite that we had in DA:O, only your friends will only talk to you when your map allows them to.

Can anyone justify these praises? Because I'm stumped.

Okay let me a say a few things. First of all this story is talking about how hawke became the champion of kirkwall not how how hawke became hawke. They actually give alot of hawkes background, he and his brother had left the kings men before ostigar, they were both soldiers in Calins army. Hawkes father was an apostate mage who stole a noble woman's heart in kirkwall while he was there to help the wardens seal away a darkspawn. Play legacy as this is explained. His mother was one of the noble families in kirkwall till hawke's father showed up and swept her off her feet. Until there death her parents had basically disowned her for running off to marry some apostate. So actually quite a bit is known about hawke's origins. More is revealed depending on which sibling you save as each gives you another peace of the story. Carver mentioning how hard it is for him being the only blade in a house of mages.  You also learn things like beathy wasnt the first mage in her mothers family and that by marrying there father and birthing bethany she added more magic into the blood line. Again though you need do the family quests more. As for the progressive change, read alot of the bantor back and forth. Hawkes mother dying does put a strain on him/her. watch the end of legacy with both siblings dead and there mother dead. It really shows how much he cares. Granted there isnt alot in the way of change.  but it's there if you look. I am mortified they stopped DLC for the game, there was alot of good it was doing to help make it better

The companion part is also tricky. If you listen to companion conversations they talk a bit about there expliots in the down time. Merril for example is learning about the city, and gathering dalish artifacts that will help her find her missing friend and fix the alluvian. Fenris talks about finding his sister, what his former master is up too, and taking on jobs as a mercanary (i believe). Varric has to take care of his house's interests. After the expidition in act one he and everyone else who were along become very wealthy. so he has to manage that new found wealth, affairs of his house, get the merchants guild off his back, and even work on business deals. All while doing things like finding bartrand and getting info for hawke. What isabella is doing for most of act two is dodging the qunari. She is actively trying to find a ship out of kirkwall and a means to make money and profit. she probably joins other traveling groups that allow her to make money. Act 3 is hard to say because her being there or not depends on what your hawke does. Avaline is busy with her gaurd duties, and her new husband. So what she is doing is obvious. Take isbella with you when you are doing her courtship mission it's hillarious. Your sister or brother are doing whatever the fate is they were given. If they are a grey warden they are fighting dark spawn or looking for new ways in the deep roads. If they are dead they are rotting in the deep roads. if they join the circle or the templars they are do whatever it takes in that. Anders is a well known healer and general do gooder in the slums. So he's healing people, raiding the chantry and putting things in place for the endgame stuff. Sebastian, stays mostly in the chantry, he's looking at ways to reclaim his home land, to further himself in the makers eyes, probably practicing his bow skills, and generally living his life. So yes they arent all doing amazing world changing things in there off time but they are doing things. For some reason they are doing them when hawke is around. But most of the time they arent just sitting on there hands.

[wright1978]

I certainly feel Hawke has a pretty strong personal story but so did the warden through the origins.
Where Hawke falls flat in in his/her actions fails to effect the larger picture which rolls on over him/her like a river.

As for companions having their own lives..
- I like the fact they have their own base.
- I like when you go see them they are seen chatting with another companion etc and that they banter with eachother and you can get a good sense of their level of closeness with other companions.

The area they are lacking i suppose is their livlihood where the player has to head canon their activities outside of being in their base or out adventuring with you.

[Sir JK]

fchopin wrote...

Please explain what you mean by experiencing rather than overcoming, do you mean Hawke or the person playing the game?
We are all experiencing life and it does not matter if we are overcoming something or just relaxing by the pool, both can be personal so how does that differ by what DA2 did.

It is a fundamental difference in how the story is told. The personal story (the journey internal) and the quest (the journey external). It has no bearing on life itself, since there are stories and thus the structure is relating to the messages and morals within.

The journey is the one the character undertakes.

DAO is of the latter of the two categories. The Archdemon, Uldred, Zathrian and the Lady of the Forest, Branka, Eamon's sickness, the issues the companions face... these are challenges unrelated to you. They come from the outside. It is thus up to the protagonist to gather his strength, solidify his support and brave the dangers and ultimately defeat the monster.
It is essentially about proving your strength and restoring order to the world, gaining the reward in the process. A good solid story structure. Often very engaging.
But ultimately... while you can have a personal connection to the protagonist (ie. you relate to him/her), it is not a personal story. You might be stronger, reaffirmed in your self, at the end... but you're not really changed.

The journey internal is not about that. There are external threats, yes. But they're only there to relate to core issues inside of yourself. It's not about defeating the monster of finding the richest. It is about learning what your place in the world is. It is about having the world ripped out from underneath you and being forced to rebuild it. About illusions shattered. About becoming a new person from the rubble of the old.
Consider, that you do not have a large impact on the events that transpire in DA2. But at every turn you can give a reaction to what happened. You relationship with the companions is not about them trusting you with their problems (as it is in DAO) but rather your stance to their life choices and opinions (do you oppose it and earn rivalry, or do you support it and earn frienship?). You're just a part of a larger picture, just an actor among others, just one cog in the machine. The challenge is not to win over the machine... or even to break out of it. But to develop your relationship with the world around you.
The story does not progress through you solving anything, but through you developing your personal connection to the world (it might very well be resentment). The journey, is internal, personal. Hence the name.

In summary;
The external journey is about overcoming a problem and solving it. It is about changing the world around you.
The internal journey is about finding your place in the world and coming to terms with it. It is about changing yourself.

Hope that clears it all up.

Modifié par Sir JK, 17 janvier 2013 - 01:19 .

[Maria Caliban]

ShadowDragoonFTW wrote...

While mostly I don't care for batlin's posts (I think most of them are empty natter), this one I actually agree with a lot.

You can't imagine my surprise when I read the original post. Not only is it well-written and thought out, but the criticism are specific and not the complaint I read twenty times a day on this forum.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 17 janvier 2013 - 01:23 .

[Kidd]

Wulfram wrote...

I do think the companions have more of a life outside of the PC. Actually, I sometimes felt a bit left out - how come Fenris goes around having card games with everyone else, but Hawke just gets "Mages are bad, slaves are bad" all the time?

The solution is simple. Put a TCG called De Divine's Deck or something similar in the game. I know *I* would love it ^^

[TEWR]

I'll read over the thread and address many posts after a nice long rest but...

KiddDaBeauty wrote...

Hawke is essentially the Warden with a set and voiced name instead of a choice of six unvoiced ones after all.

...this isn't accurate. The Warden's name is just as set and, in the case of two origins, voiced.

But not used as much as their title which they have from the start of the game.

[Maria Caliban]

1. Mark Darrah has strongly suggested DA:I will be a return to BioWare's traditional, epic storytelling. I'd bet money ($50), that this won't be a personal story at all.

2. I don't think we're going to see companions having more of a non-PC-centric life than in DA II. David has said that they won't have the longer companion quests, presumably because more ambient companion interactions give some players a stronger feeling of control and/or closeness.

[esper]

Maria Caliban wrote...

1. Mark Darrah has strongly suggested DA:I will be a return to BioWare's traditional, epic storytelling. I'd bet money ($50), that this won't be a personal story at all.

2. I don't think we're going to see companions having more of a non-PC-centric life than in DA II. David has said that they won't have the longer companion quests, presumably because more ambient companion interactions give some players a stronger feeling of control and/or closeness.

1. Yeah, I know and I also think that I will like da.I less for it. Sighs...

2. I do hope they keep their having a life outside the pc ability.

[Poison_Berrie]

Sir JK wrote...
Also note that all the companion quests in DAO revolves around you solving their problems. Alistair won't accept his royal heritage without you pushing him into it. Morrigan won't recieve the book without you fetching it for her. Ohgren won't rekindle lost love without you guiding him through it. Sten won't regain his honour without you helping him forgive himself, Zevran won't regain his life without you saving it, and Wynne won't ever come to terms with her past without you finding it. It's the same really... you defeating the external foe.

Which is exactly his point.
The praise about DA2's companions being more their own individuals isn't true. I'd argue that DA:O were less apparent in thier lack of life outside the Warden, since in their case years did not pass while they remained as static as the rest of the city.

[fchopin]

Sir JK wrote...

Hope that clears it all up.

I understand what you mean by overcoming a dragon or Zathrian and the Lady of the forest but why do you not consider this as personal? For me it is personal as i have to find out all the facts and decide what action to take so this does change me as i don’t want to do a mistake and kill innocent people. For me making important decisions that affect others is what is important and personal and changes the self.
 
If i am by the pool with companions and buy everyone a drink and we chat it is still personal but just a different kind of personal.
 
What i don’t understand is why you base personal to be thinking about yourself or doing something for someone else as different as both can be personal and expands the self.

[esper]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

Sir JK wrote...
Also note that all the companion quests in DAO revolves around you solving their problems. Alistair won't accept his royal heritage without you pushing him into it. Morrigan won't recieve the book without you fetching it for her. Ohgren won't rekindle lost love without you guiding him through it. Sten won't regain his honour without you helping him forgive himself, Zevran won't regain his life without you saving it, and Wynne won't ever come to terms with her past without you finding it. It's the same really... you defeating the external foe.

Which is exactly his point.
The praise about DA2's companions being more their own individuals isn't true. I'd argue that DA:O were less apparent in thier lack of life outside the Warden, since in their case years did not pass while they remained as static as the rest of the city.

But in da2, they don't need Hawke. If Hawke refuses they figure out their own solution or leave the party. Hawke is a friend/someone they respect and they want her along, but they have their own life and manage it for better or for worse without Hawke.

Without the warden the da:o's one aren't going to even try solving their problem. (at least not in game). They life revolves around the warden

[fchopin]

Maria Caliban wrote...

1. Mark Darrah has strongly suggested DA:I will be a return to BioWare's traditional, epic storytelling. I'd bet money ($50), that this won't be a personal story at all.

2. I don't think we're going to see companions having more of a non-PC-centric life than in DA II. David has said that they won't have the longer companion quests, presumably because more ambient companion interactions give some players a stronger feeling of control and/or closeness.

Have you a link?

[Sir JK]

Poison_Berrie wrote...
Which is exactly his point.
The praise about DA2's companions being more their own individuals isn't true. I'd argue that DA:O were less apparent in thier lack of life outside the Warden, since in their case years did not pass while they remained as static as the rest of the city.

The staticness I grant you, it certainly was both apparent and jarring. But it has no bearing on whether the companions are their own persons or not, does it? It is more an issue of scope and volume of content. They could have run across the same problem if the companions were written the same was as they were in DAO

As for their own individuality, their stories are those of their own journeys with you as a passenger and the banter and certain cutscenes shows them interacting with one another without you bringing them together. I think primarily the latter is the most praised bit in that regard. They interact with one another, they have interests and similarities beyond their stories, they develop friendships and rivalries on their own. And they do not go through you to do so.

Whether one likes that or not is subjective, and it is certainly not so great a difference between the two as I seem to suggest (it's more a case of DA2 refining something already somewhat present in DAO). DA2 just show us more of the character's personalities without our input and their rleationship to the story as a whole is not neccessarily linked through the protagonist.

EDIT: Silly me forgot to finish a sentence properly

Modifié par Sir JK, 17 janvier 2013 - 01:54 .

[Maria Caliban]

fchopin wrote...

Have you a link?

To?

[LPPrince]

Maria Caliban wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Have you a link?

To?

I believe chopin wants links to the devs' respective statements, Maria.

[LPPrince]

Maria Caliban wrote...

1. Mark Darrah has strongly suggested DA:I will be a return to BioWare's traditional, epic storytelling. I'd bet money ($50), that this won't be a personal story at all.

2. I don't think we're going to see companions having more of a non-PC-centric life than in DA II. David has said that they won't have the longer companion quests, presumably because more ambient companion interactions give some players a stronger feeling of control and/or closeness.

Both of these makes me happy. Though a middle ground between companion quests and ambient any time interactions would be preferable, at least to me.

[fchopin]

Maria Caliban wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Have you a link?

To?

I thought there was a link to Mark Darrah where he said that they would return to traditional epic storytelling.

[Sir JK]

fchopin wrote...

I understand what you mean by overcoming a dragon or Zathrian and the Lady of the forest but why do you not consider this as personal? For me it is personal as i have to find out all the facts and decide what action to take so this does change me as i don’t want to do a mistake and kill innocent people. For me making important decisions that affect others is what is important and personal and changes the self.
 
If i am by the pool with companions and buy everyone a drink and we chat it is still personal but just a different kind of personal.
 
What i don’t understand is why you base personal to be thinking about yourself or doing something for someone else as different as both can be personal and expands the self.

The issue it seems, is semantical. 

If you prefer, just use Internal Journey istead of Personal Story. The latter is a cruder and more simplistic phrasing of the former (I believe this story structure has another, even more specific, name in academia as well). It's simply a name to indicate that the story is about a person's changing relationship with the world. That the conflict is emotional and introspective. As opposed to external.

Just confusing terminology I guess

Ultimately it's just different means of telling a story. The focus lie on different things.

[Reikilea]

I agree about the characters. They did have something resembling their own life - Anders and his clinic, Aveline and his guard and Fenris his nothing. Yup it really seems like they did nothing thought those years. Except Aveline and Anders.

My problme wiht them is I dont sea a reason for them to follow you. Why woudl Anders and Fenris follow this power hungry blood mage, if he/she is something they despise. Why would Anders follow you if you keep insulting his cause. Why is Isabella following you - doesn´t she a ship to take care of? Why is Aveline following you if you keep killing innocents and keep breaking the law. It doesn´t make sense.

I feel like that big years span was the biggest problem. 8 yeas has gone by and nothing changed. 8 years! Things change in weeks, people change their professions, their opinions on life. And i got the feel that except Anders and Isabella no one grow up as a character. And there was only a tiny change for those two, because they had important role in the story development.

And the personal story focus was a great idea,but in the end it didn´t work that well.

[Maria Caliban]

fchopin wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

fchopin wrote...

Have you a link?

To?

I thought there was a link to Mark Darrah where he said that they would return to traditional epic storytelling.

He hasn't said that. He's mentioned that some fans want a more traditional fantasy story (epic enemy, clear villain). I am willing to bet that this means a return to the traditional, epic fantasy plots of previous BioWare games.

[Poison_Berrie]

Sir JK wrote...

Whether one likes that or not is subjective, and it is certainly not so great a difference between the two as I seem to suggest (it's more a case of DA2 refining something already somewhat present in DAO). DA2 just show us more of the character's personalities without our input and their rleationship to the story as a whole is not neccessarily linked through the protagonist.

I'll concede that the characters seemed to talk a bit more about doing things with others in their banter, otherwise both games really don't feel all that different in terms of personalization of your companions.

[legbamel]

The DA2 companion quests made it clear that they were pursuing their own lives. Fenris was searching for Denarius and, after Hadriana, finds his sister and brings her to Kirkwall without Hawke even knowing about it. Even if you tell Merill she's a fool she'll keep doing exzctly what she came to Kirkwall to do. Isabella is looking for the book and eventually comes to you when she finds it.

You aren't given a way to stop the big events because Hawke doesn't know they are big until they explode in her face. The PC isn't given a reason to solve all of Kirkwall's problems and she generally has enough of her own, plus those of her friends, to keep her busy. In hindsight she's powerless but during the build-up she's more worried about her family and companions than the city as a whole.

Should there have been a way to play Hawke as the all-powerful hero? That might have been more satisfying but, in the end, it would have destroyed the plot of the story they were trying to tell.

[Cimeas]

I like the fact that you're not THE ONLY THING in your companions' lives. I think in general, though, execution could be better.


But that's the whole thing with DA2 anyway. The core IDEA of the game wasn't bad, but it was clearly rushed and so came out poorly.

[wright1978]

Reikilea wrote...

....
I feel like that big years span was the biggest problem. 8 yeas has gone by and nothing changed. 8 years! Things change in weeks, people change their professions, their opinions on life. And i got the feel that except Anders and Isabella no one grow up as a character. And there was only a tiny change for those two, because they had important role in the story development.

And the personal story focus was a great idea,but in the end it didn´t work that well.

Yeah really hope they don't try that experiment again as it really fell flat. I just head canon that the time span is much more compressed or else otherwise things don't work.