174 réponses à ce sujet

[ggghhhxxxpuf]

All these people answered it nicely on their posts. So let's sum them up.

1) The personal story is refering to the scope of it; not as an internal journey, but as the story of the PC's life instead of the grand scope Origins had with fighting a Big Bad.
But, if you want the internal journey, this game provides you with the oportunities to do so.

2) The companions in Origins and DA2 are the same, they do things based on your inpact in their lifes with two big differences: In Origins, the time scope is very short and everyone has a clear goal they want to achieve, in DA2 everyone is suposed to carry on with their lifes between arcs because there is no sense of urgency. How it was executed in a cosmetic way is another discursion.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

To OP,

Nothing is personal about a story being told by other people. You're not even experiencing Hawke's memory. You're merely an omniscient third party observer who imagine what could BioWare's character called Hawke done over a decade. The main character of DA 2 are Varric and Cassandra. And through them, you get to imagine Hawke's life which may or may not be true, since no one, except Varric knows the truth. How is this story presentation supposed to be personal, I have no idea. I'd rather have the story be presented  in the form of diary written by Hawke himself, instead of a story told by unreliable narrator. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 17 janvier 2013 - 04:05 .

[esper]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

To OP,

Nothing is personal about a story being told by other people. You're not even experiencing Hawke's memory. You're merely an omniscient third party observer who imagine what could BioWare's character called Hawke done over a decade. The main character of DA 2 are Varric and Cassandra. And through them, you get to imagine Hawke's life which may or may not be true, since no one, except Varric knows the truth. How is this story presentation supposed to be personal, I have no idea. I'd rather have the story be presented  in the form of diary written by Hawke himself, instead of a story told by unreliable narrator. 

No, they are the frame. THE FRAME.

I so which that people would get their narrative tools right.

Hawke is the protagonist, because the story is: Who was the real person behind the legend of the champion.

Varric and Cassandra are the FRAME. FRAME!

(Where is my blowing up in frustration smiley?)

[The Teyrn of Whatever]

esper wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

To OP,

Nothing is personal about a story being told by other people. You're not even experiencing Hawke's memory. You're merely an omniscient third party observer who imagine what could BioWare's character called Hawke done over a decade. The main character of DA 2 are Varric and Cassandra. And through them, you get to imagine Hawke's life which may or may not be true, since no one, except Varric knows the truth. How is this story presentation supposed to be personal, I have no idea. I'd rather have the story be presented  in the form of diary written by Hawke himself, instead of a story told by unreliable narrator. 

No, they are the frame. THE FRAME.

I so which that people would get their narrative tools right.

Hawke is the protagonist, because the story is: Who was the real person behind the legend of the champion.

Varric and Cassandra are the FRAME. FRAME!

(Where is my blowing up in frustration smiley?)

Want to borrow mine? <--- here you go.

Modifié par The Teryn of Whatever, 17 janvier 2013 - 04:33 .

[esper]

The Teryn of Whatever wrote...

esper wrote...

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

To OP,

Nothing is personal about a story being told by other people. You're not even experiencing Hawke's memory. You're merely an omniscient third party observer who imagine what could BioWare's character called Hawke done over a decade. The main character of DA 2 are Varric and Cassandra. And through them, you get to imagine Hawke's life which may or may not be true, since no one, except Varric knows the truth. How is this story presentation supposed to be personal, I have no idea. I'd rather have the story be presented  in the form of diary written by Hawke himself, instead of a story told by unreliable narrator. 

No, they are the frame. THE FRAME.

I so which that people would get their narrative tools right.

Hawke is the protagonist, because the story is: Who was the real person behind the legend of the champion.

Varric and Cassandra are the FRAME. FRAME!

(Where is my blowing up in frustration smiley?)

Want to borrow mine?

Well, I certainly feel that way.



(Thanks Teyrn of Whatever)

Modifié par esper, 17 janvier 2013 - 04:35 .

[Alexander1136]

 While I agree with the given statements by the op, I don't see why this is in the DA3 thread, there is still a da2 thread up. go on there and complain about da2.

[Knight of Dane]

Foopydoopydoo wrote...

These are common praises? 0_o

Could've fooled me too.. 

[DisturbedJim83]

Alexander1136 wrote...

 While I agree with the given statements by the op, I don't see why this is in the DA3 thread, there is still a da2 thread up. go on there and complain about da2.

Possibly because most there ignore him in the same way Scientists ignore Creationists I recall batlin as one of many who complained about not being able to change Aveline armour and when the logical point that Aveline is a member of the city guard so she would'nt wear anything other than city guard armour his counter argument was " well thats irrelevant because I want to change it" ergo totally missing the point and guess what he hasn't changed one iota

[nightscrawl]

batlin wrote...

Second, the praise it gets for party members having "lives that don't revolve around the main character". This is especially confusing because as far as I can tell, your party just kind of remain in stasis in their dwellings whenever Hawke isn't around. Sure, Varric says he's tracking down Bartrand, and yes, Aveline gets a job in the guard, but the majority of the party just seems to hang out in one area for years on end without accomplishing anything important until Hawke shows up and activates their subplot.

This second one at least it more like a goal they had for the presentation of the companions, rather than the reality of the game play. IMO the time jumps added to the perception that the companions didn't do anything except wait around for you to put in your party, so too did their stationary positions in their respective areas. They are ALL, every single one, just standing around waiting, doing nothing at all. Aveline could be sitting at her desk working on papers, Isabela could be drinking or flirting with someone, Fenris could be reading (this is a big one for me), on and on. The only time that companions were given some action was during a specific cutscene, usually only if you had a quest to talk to them.

I liked the idea hey had for companions in DA2, especially as I felt it fit in with the game's environment and long term story development, I just don't think it was executed as well as it could have been.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 17 janvier 2013 - 05:46 .

[Scarlet Rabbi]

I too use to raise an eyebrow when I'd hear praise about DA2's companions having there own lives and not, as some basically put it, mindlessly waiting around a camp for the warden to interact with them.

To me, the only thing different is the setting. Yes, Fenris has the mansion, Isabela and Varric have the Hanged Man, etc. But they are doing the exact same thing the Origins' companions did, which is standing in the exact same spot (for almost ten years, I might add) waiting for Hawke to interact with them. I guess if you do half the creative work, you can imagine Isabela walking around the Hanged Man, drink in hand, flirting with the patrons. You can imagine Aveline at her desk piling through paperwork, or out back training her guardsmen.

But that's the thing isn't it? You, as the player, have to imagine the companions going about their own lives, the game doesn't it for you. If all it takes for people to claim that DA2's companions are 'going about their own lives' is to simply drop each companion in front of a different background, then hell, why can't I claim Origins' companions are going about their own lives, they just all happen to be in the same setting.

Morrigan and Fenris do the exact same thing when not actively in the party, they stand in the same spot, not moving, until they are placed in the party. Just because Fenris mimics a statue in a different spot then Merrill or Anders does not mean he's 'going about his life' while not in the party. Unless, as I said before, you as the player do half the work and imagine Fenris, in his mansion, cleaning up a bit or sipping wine in front of a roaring fireplace. And, if that's the case, I can rightly say that Leliana or Sten are actively going about their lives, they just happen to be in the same setting. I can easily imagine Sten cleaning his blade, or Leliana gathering herbs or preparing something to eat. Apparently, if I listen to those who claim DA2's companions had their own lives, that's all it takes; a little imagination.

My point being that in order to rightfully claim that companions are 'going about their own lives', they should....well, actually be going about their lives. Not standing around like a beef eater, just in a different setting than the other companions. This burdens the player with half the work of imagining the companion interacting with their setting. And if that's the case, then Origins companions were going about their own lives just as much as DA2's were, they just all happen to be in the same setting.

Modifié par Scarlet Rabbi, 17 janvier 2013 - 09:12 .

[ScarMK]

Scarlet Rabbi
wrote...cleaning up a bit.

Fenris cleaning up the mansion? Anders will submit to the Templars before that happens.

[Scarlet Rabbi]

ScarMK wrote...

Scarlet Rabbi
wrote...cleaning up a bit.

Fenris cleaning up the mansion? Anders will submit to the Templars before that happens.

 great point

[AlexanderCousland]

batlin wrote...

First, the idea that DA2 is a personal story is pretty head-scratching. In a personal story you learn about the lead character's life, get insight into why the character is the way he/she is, and that character has an arc. In other words, the character is a fundamentally different person at the end of the story than they are at the beginning. 

 Yes!

[frostajulie]

fchopin wrote...

Sir JK wrote...

*takes bait*

 

Sorry but i disagree with you. I knew more about my warden by just doing any one of the origins in DAO than i did playing the whole DA2 game about Hawke.
 
The only personal thing i learned about Hawke was that Hawke killed people for money and he considered life very cheap and never had any control on any important choice in the game. A complete failure as a person.
The companions were even worse. If you take Merill you will find that she can do nothing without Hawke and constantly seeks help as she is completely useless by herself. There is nothing personal about her life, all she does is complain that no one understands her like a 12 year old girl.
 
DAO had companions that could stand on their own feet and were not dependent on the Warden but were just helping the warden.
 
If DA2 is supposed to be personal then i don’t want personal, i like real people with a brain.

This to me is why I feel no connection to the characters in DA2.  I love every character in DAO they were smart intelligent Morrigan was amazing Wynne could be a loving grama or a old **** depending on who your warden was and you pretty much knew who your warden was by the time you got out of Ostegar the origins did a LOT to set up character motivations and allow you to know who your warden was as a person and why they would react a certain way to different characters.  DAO was magical DA2 was Meh in terms of character development for both side characters and the PC and thats npt to say DA2 had no good points Varric and the sibling relationship really hooked me in but then your sib is gone in act 2 and you just let it happen... yeah Hawke is pretty much a failure as a person from beginning to end.

[AlexanderCousland]

Wulfram wrote...

I really don't see much of a personal story. Just a lack of any sort of real main plot. If the player creates for themselves a personal story, then that absence maybe gives it more prominence, but I don't think the game does anything particularly to encourage the creation of such a personal story.

BINGO 

[Cutlasskiwi]

For me, it was a personal story because I got to focus on my Hawke and what s/he cares about, how events chape him/her through the years and what makes him/her the person that they are. The mage-trusting Hawke that arrived in Kirkwall is not the same Hawke that later sided with the templars without thinking twice about it.

[AlexanderCousland]

Sir JK wrote...

DA2 just show us more of the character's personalities without our input and their rleationship to the story as a whole is not neccessarily linked through the protagonist.

Problem, The marketing campaign told us DA2 was about "A Rise To Power" and we have "The ability to shape the world around you" 

They didnt tell us it was as a coincidence.

[Harle Cerulean]

So Fenris contacting his sister and earning the money to pay her passage to Kirkwall is "doing nothing?" He takes mercenary jobs, he doesn't just sit in his mansion, drinking and waiting for Hawke to show up. And doing it all without Hawke's help is relying on Hawke? The only point where he needs Hawke is when she actually arrives, and he's worried it may be a trap and wants backup. He doesn't even need Hawke to teach him how to read - if he can't read and write, he finds another way.

Before before then, during the prior Act gap, Fenris goes out and plays cards with the other companions, and Donnic visits him at his home and they build a friendship, to the point where, by Act III, Donnic talks to Fenris about Donnic and Aveline's plans for children, etc.

It also always gets me when people complain about companions 'needing' their PC to help them on a personal quest. Unless you (general you meaning "those who make this complaint") are going on quests 100% by yourself, leaving all your allies at home, I'm pretty sure you have no room to talk about who needs who.

[AlexanderCousland]

Sir JK wrote...

If you prefer, just use Internal Journey istead of Personal Story. The latter is a cruder and more simplistic phrasing of the former (I believe this story structure has another, even more specific, name in academia as well). It's simply a name to indicate that the story is about a person's changing relationship with the world. That the conflict is emotional and introspective. As opposed to external.

You saying DA2 needs to hinge upon my emotions in order to work:crying:

[AlexanderCousland]

Reikilea wrote...

My problme wiht them is I dont sea a reason for them to follow you. Why woudl Anders and Fenris follow this power hungry blood mage, if he/she is something they despise. Why would Anders follow you if you keep insulting his cause. Why is Isabella following you - doesn´t she a ship to take care of? Why is Aveline following you if you keep killing innocents and keep breaking the law. It doesn´t make sense

[Sutekh]

Harle Cerulean wrote...

It also always gets me when people complain about companions 'needing' their PC to help them on a personal quest. Unless you (general you meaning "those who make this complaint") are going on quests 100% by yourself, leaving all your allies at home, I'm pretty sure you have no room to talk about who needs who.

Not mentioning that if companions solved their own problems off screen and had merry adventures on their own, it would be a bit frustrating for us (players). It's a game after all. So companions needing help is a way for us to have some fun too; a plot device.

[AlexanderCousland]

Faerunner wrote...

I personally feel that DA2 has the worst of the pre-designed and blank slate characters. It's specific enough that you cannot create your own story arc (pre-determined background, pre-determined relationship with family except for the empty friendship/rivalry with one surviving sibling, three rigid personalities, limited dialogue options, voice-acted), but it's also vague enough that the "story arc" they give you is weak and ineffectual. Nothing changes or progresses for years until Hawke holds their hands through the entire process

Cha-Ching! Im buying this, Full price, no discount.