174 réponses à ce sujet

[Renmiri1]

I don't think you "get" DA2's style and that may be your difficulty with listening to us talk favorably about it. Let me try to explain this another way:

Personal story:
DAO is very paternalistic and "on rails": Warden leads, picks the battles, picks the routes, decides if when and where pretty much everything will be done. The very few external circunstances that affect the Warden are so major that you don't feel coerced but they are coercion: End Blight, End Civil War, Defend Denerim. besides that, the only other fixed point is the origin on how you became a warden and Zevran trying to kill you. Well, if you ignore the blight, civil war and Denerim defense then ya, it is an open world and Warden decides everything on it. Yet you CAN NOT go to Orlais and get help right after Ostagar (or ever). Your Warden also CAN NOT say "scr*w the civil war, I'm going to Kirkwall, Nevarra and get help. And you absolutely CAN NOT opt to battle the Archdemon from Orzumar, the dwarven city wich is much better defended. Think about it: why go to Denerim when most of your troops are not coming from there ? Orzumar is closer to the Earl's castle, the mages tower and the forests, has resisted assault by darkspawn for thousands of years and full of dwarfs who have spent their life battling Darkspawn.And has very good defense lines and is able to resist sieges for a long time. It has done so in the past!

Note that not one of the issues above has anything to do with who the Warden is or how the Warden's personality is.

On DAO you are just as helpless as in DA2, but you don't feel it because there is no companion who disagrees with you. No one says "scr*ew Loghain, lets find the other Wardens outside Ferelden". No one says "Let's bunk in Orzumar". Everything is presented as the only course to take and you get fooled thinking it was your decision when in reality you didn't decide a thing, you just moved on the rails the game made for you.

On DA2, Bethany / Carver disagree with going to Kirkwall right off the bat. Going to the Deep Roads is debated, discussed and pros and cons brought up and Hawke is forced to agree to go, but you get shown alternatives. Your companions have their own minds and are very vocal about it. The Qunari problem ? Endless debate, several diverging opinions, Hawke gets pushed every way imaginable. Then the sh*t hits the fan (TSHTF) Hawke has to think on his / her feet and take care of the mess.  TSHTF too on DAO but you were never aware there were other ways to solve it so you never agonized over it.

Well, guess what ? RL teamwork is a lot more like DA2 then DAO. When you lead a team you lead much better when you debate decisions with them and let them show you pros and cons before deciding. And even when you and teamates agree, and there is a clear "good" plan, sometimes TSHTF and you have to roll with the punches and lead your team out of the mess the best way you can. 

Independant Companions:
This is Hawke: A well seasoned leader that listens to his / her team and respects their input. The team has plans and goals but is flexible enough to be able to act when nothing goes according to said plan. They respect each other and trust each other and consider they are getting their goals met, hence they stay together. Their friendships are very strong and as Isabella says "there is no one else I'd want having my back", they and Hawke see each other as equals. Several of your compoanions have their own lives and goals and they pursue them sometimes without telling you (Isabella, Fenris). You know they can and will leave someday, while on DAO you know your team will not leave you until the Blight is over.

Is a much closer relationship TO ME, when you treat the companions as equals, not as serfs. You don't have to keep buyng gifts or agree with them on every detail. You just have to show you listen and you take their views seriously. You may fail in their "loyalty quest", like never fixing Merril's mirror, but she doesn't dump you and the team. She knows you did what you could (or refused because you thought it was a big mistake). Friends do that sometimes, as Aveline learned.. Sometimes friends are pushy and ignore your wishes, when they are convinced you are doing a mistake. 

No one has to be "hardened", they evolve together with Hawke. As equals. TO ME that shows a lot more personality then the DAO way where everithing is up to the Warden, like everything is up to "daddy" or "mommy". 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 17 janvier 2013 - 10:54 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Harle Cerulean wrote..

It also always gets me when people complain about companions 'needing' their PC to help them on a personal quest. Unless you (general you meaning "those who make this complaint") are going on quests 100% by yourself, leaving all your allies at home, I'm pretty sure you have no room to talk about who needs who.

The "Need" part comes in because DA2 requires that you complete companion story arc' s In Act3, they are literally main quest's. How do you feel Hawke ? 

Modifié par FreshIstay, 17 janvier 2013 - 10:53 .

[Renmiri1]

Actually, no.. Fenris spent 2 years looking for his sister, contacted Aveline (or was it Isabela ?) and scheduled a meeting at the Hanged Man, all by himself. He just wanted Hawke there to have his back because that is what friends do. Anders ? Got all the stuff he could alone, and then enlisted help for some ingredients but never ever includes Hawke on his plans. Merril I give it to you, she is a needy npc and needs Hawke but that is HER PERSONALITY. Aveline ? Hawke gets tipped that Aveline is in trouble and offers help. And in the end Aveline and Donnic are CRUCIAL to Hawke's success. Varric ? Wants Hawke at his back but he means the entire team. Just him and Hawke would not have been able to face the haunted house. Sebastian ? The one who wants Hawke involved isn't him, is Elthina

[iOnlySignIn]

Good points. But I think you need not worry too much about these, especially the second one, given what the Inquisitor is and what Inquisition is about (i.e. more similar to Wardening than refugeeing).

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 17 janvier 2013 - 11:06 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Renmiri1 wrote...

On DA2, Bethany / Carver disagree with going to Kirkwall right off the bat. Going to the Deep Roads is debated, discussed and pros and cons brought up and Hawke is forced to agree to go, but you get shown alternatives. Your companions have their own minds and are very vocal about it. The Qunari problem ? Endless debate, several diverging opinions, Hawke gets pushed every way imaginable. Then the sh*t hits the fan (TSHTF) Hawke has to think on his / her feet and take care of the mess.  TSHTF too on DAO but you were never aware there were other ways to solve it so you never agonized over it.

I agonized over a few things because I was concerned about the future of Ferelden and the Holding' s within it.
Save/Sacrfice Redcliffe Kill Conor/Sacrifice Isolde/Save them both, Behlen/Harrowmont, Branka/Caridin, Elves/Werewolves/Break the Curse, Mages/Templar' s, Defile the Urn/Preserve the Urn, Alistair/Anora/Marry one
Alistair/Lohgain Who takes the Final Blow.

Quite a few thing with quite a few ways to solve them....I would say. thats  just me though:whistle:

[Auras_Mendalla]

I saw this link on another thread here, and it really opened my eyes as to the type of story BioWare was trying to tell here.

gamasutra.com/blogs/LaraCrigger/20120521/170722/Walking_the_Heroines_Journey_How_Dragon_Age_2_Follows_An_OldBut_Often_OverlookedStorytelling_Archetype.php


It must also be said that as much as I loved DA:O, for me personally DAII was the far superior game. I know I'm in the minority on that point, and so be it, but I felt that storywise it wasn't as cliched and inevitable as Origins.

[Asch Lavigne]

I agree, their lived did revolve around Hawke. I remember hearing Aveline threw a party between acts 2 & 3, other than that there was no mention (that I can recall) of them ever doing anything in those jumps. Oh Isabela was looking for her thingy, how about telling me what you did exactly? You too Varric, something about how you tracked down leads for Bartrand would have been nice,

It also bugged me how Isabela got away with what she did. Aveline tells the Arishok we should punish her, but she winds up avoiding everyone, who must not be looking very hard because there she was in the bar.

[Renmiri1]

FreshIstay wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

On DA2, Bethany / Carver disagree with going to Kirkwall right off the bat. Going to the Deep Roads is debated, discussed and pros and cons brought up and Hawke is forced to agree to go, but you get shown alternatives. Your companions have their own minds and are very vocal about it. The Qunari problem ? Endless debate, several diverging opinions, Hawke gets pushed every way imaginable. Then the sh*t hits the fan (TSHTF) Hawke has to think on his / her feet and take care of the mess.  TSHTF too on DAO but you were never aware there were other ways to solve it so you never agonized over it.

I agonized over a few things because I was concerned about the future of Ferelden and the Holding' s within it.
Save/Sacrfice Redcliffe Kill Conor/Sacrifice Isolde/Save them both, Behlen/Harrowmont, Branka/Caridin, Elves/Werewolves/Break the Curse, Mages/Templar' s, Defile the Urn/Preserve the Urn, Alistair/Anora/Marry one
Alistair/Lohgain Who takes the Final Blow.

Quite a few thing with quite a few ways to solve them....I would say. thats  just me though:whistle:

Ya but.. 

1) I was concerned about the future of Ferelden and the Holding' s within it 
Why ? Unless you were a Cousland noble, you would have no ties to Ferelden. Dwarves don't care about surface things. Neither do Dalish elves or Circle mages. Perhaps as an alienage elf you would have some ties to Fereldem but maybe not, considering they were the ones who kept you in that sh*thole and killed your bride / groom. You cared about Frelden.. just because.. You didn't seek the other Wardens outside Fereldem,, just because.. You took a stand in Denerim, not Orzumar which would be clearly better strategy wise, just because..

2)All those minor decisions were there in DA2 as well. Help (or not) Sebastian, Fenris, the magistrate's son, Merril...

3) Both the minor and big decisions were barely discussed.
who did you discuss Redcliff with ? Connor ? Loghain ? Think of it from the perspective of Zevran: Why am I fighting here ? Warden says so. Why did Warden side with Loghain / Allistair ? Dunno, don't care. I'm here to end the blight and will do anything the Warden (daddy) says. Sure Morrigan would sometimes butt in, but she usually did that AFTER the fact to tell you how disappointed she was at you. There was never any expectation from her or from you that her opinion mattered. Same for Zevran, Leliean, Alistair, Winne.. If you went too far you dissapointed them and they left, if not they stayed grumbling. There was rarely a dialog. Only one I can remember is the fate of the Anvil. Pretty much everything else was your decision alone with no expectation of input from anyone from you or from the team. Compare that with Hawke's decision to join mages or Templars.

[AlexanderCousland]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Ya but.. 

1) I was concerned about the future of Ferelden and the Holding' s within it 
Why ? Unless you were a Cousland noble, you would have no ties to Ferelden. Dwarves don't care about surface things. Neither do Dalish elves or Circle mages. Perhaps as an alienage elf you would have some ties to Fereldem but maybe not, considering they were the ones who kept you in that sh*thole and killed your bride / groom. You cared about Frelden.. just because.. You didn't seek the other Wardens outside Fereldem,, just because.. You took a stand in Denerim, not Orzumar which would be clearly better strategy wise, just because..

2)All those minor decisions were there in DA2 as well. Help (or not) Sebastian, Fenris, the magistrate's son, Merril...

3) Both the minor and big decisions were barely discussed.
who did you discuss Redcliff with ? Connor ? Loghain ? Think of it from the perspective of Zevran: Why am I fighting here ? Warden says so. Why did Warden side with Loghain / Allistair ? Dunno, don't care. I'm here to end the blight and will do anything the Warden (daddy) says. Sure Morrigan would sometimes butt in, but she usually did that AFTER the fact to tell you how disappointed she was at you. There was never any expectation from her or from you that her opinion mattered. Same for Zevran, Leliean, Alistair, Winne.. If you went too far you dissapointed them and they left, if not they stayed grumbling. There was rarely a dialog. Only one I can remember is the fate of the Anvil. Pretty much everything else was your decision alone with no expectation of input from anyone from you or from the team. Compare that with Hawke's decision to join mages or Templars.

You like your companions, I like Fereldan and Thats That, dont tell me why i like something.

Who care' s about their opinion? pssh..not me. It's my character my decision, the game is supposed to be about my character right? Why did mages or templars matter in the grand scheme, all the circles in Thedas are destroyed, and you know that from the prolouge. I can give two poops about what any companion thinks about my descisions, You dont like that, Then get the F out my party homie.  "My companions this My companions that, they have feelings wha wha wha :crying:"  cry me a freaking river DA2 only works if the character' s grab you, outside of that it really serves no purpose.

Modifié par FreshIstay, 18 janvier 2013 - 12:31 .

[batlin]

This thread blew up while i was gone, so I'll respond to ggg's since he bottom-lined the responses nicely

ggghhhxxxpuf wrote...

All these people answered it nicely on their posts. So let's sum them up.

1) The personal story is refering to the scope of it; not as an internal journey, but as the story of the PC's life instead of the grand scope Origins had with fighting a Big Bad.
But, if you want the internal journey, this game provides you with the oportunities to do so.

The scope of the narrative has nothing to do with how personal a story is, though. You spend no less time with the Warden than you do with Hawke, and again, we skip almost a decade of Hawke's life, so if anything the scope of DA2 only serves to make it less personal than DA:O was. People show up who had apparently befreinded Hawke in that stretch of time, and you the player have no idea who they are even though all the dialogue options assume you do. Its made very clear that these are Hawke's friends, not yours. It's very difficult for me to see how DA2's story is especially personal when Hawke's life is made so nebulous to us.

2) The companions in Origins and DA2 are the same, they do things based on your inpact in their lifes with two big differences: In Origins, the time scope is very short and everyone has a clear goal they want to achieve, in DA2 everyone is suposed to carry on with their lifes between arcs because there is no sense of urgency. How it was executed in a cosmetic way is another discursion.

Execution is vital in this case because there's very little evidence that they do anything important in the years the narrative skips. Without evidence, then their lives outside of Hawke's purview isn't believable and therefore we the players are only left to assume that they don't have lives apart from Hawke. Consider this: What does Aveline accomplish in three years outside of her job? Is Fenris really spending 100% of his time helping his sister? Exactly how much time does Merrill need to study the mirror, and why does she only seem to make breakthroughs when Hawke shows up? My point is that while the characters say that they are doing things apart from bumming around with Hawke, none of them ever seem to do anything important unless Hawke is around, nor do they change unless Hawke is there to impose his friendship/rivalry on them. Hell, Fenris maintains his assertion that all mages are exactly like Tevinter mages, despite spending six years  in a place with mages that very obviously are not. The three year gap between each act may as well be three day gaps based on how static your friends remain over those periods of time. The only character that actually does make you believe time has passed since you last saw them is your sibling, because they have a noticeably different outlook when they return as a Grey Warden then they had before. Not the case for anyone else in your group.

Modifié par batlin, 18 janvier 2013 - 01:05 .

[Renmiri1]

FreshIstay wrote...
 all the circles in Thedas are destroyed

Huh ?

FreshIstay wrote...
You like your companions, I like Fereldan and Thats That, dont tell me why i like something.

Who care' s about their opinion? pssh..not me. It's my character my decision, the game is supposed to be about my character right? Why did mages or templars matter in the grand scheme, all the circles in Thedas are destroyed, and you know that from the prolouge. I can give two poops about what any companion thinks about my descisions, You dont like that, Then get the F out my party homie.  "My companions this My companions that, they have feelings wha wha wha :crying:"  cry me a freaking river DA2 only works if the character' s grab you, outside of that it really serves no purpose.

In that case, I wont bother explaining my taste in gaming to you, as you clearly don't care. I wonder why you replied to my post with a question though.

Alas, since this is a BIOWARE forum and they seem to care a little bit, I will continue to post here, Feel free to ignore my posts as I will ignore yours from now on 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 18 janvier 2013 - 01:00 .

[AlexanderCousland]

Renmiri1 wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...
 all the circles in Thedas are destroyed

Huh ?

Yep. They' ve already been anulled. Most of them right after Kirkwall, watch the prologue between Cassandra & Varric

 Goodbye

[addiction21]

FreshIstay wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

FreshIstay wrote...
 all the circles in Thedas are destroyed

Huh ?

Yep. They' ve already been anulled. Most of them right after Kirkwall, watch the prologue between Cassandra & Varric

 Goodbye

Dairsmuid, Rivain, and maybe Kirkwall.

http://dragonage.wik...ht_of_Annulment

A total of 14-15 Circle Towers in Thedas.

http://dragonage.wik.../Circle_of_Magi

Now here are the videos as best as I could get em.

The opening movie


The second one. Go to 10:10


And the last one.  18:00
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGwYjy6rqd4

Not one mention of all or even most of the circles being annulled.

[AlexanderCousland]

How bout Reading Asunder ^

[thats1evildude]

batlin wrote...

In a personal story you learn about the lead character's life, get insight into why the character is the way he/she is, and that character has an arc. In other words, the character is a fundamentally different person at the end of the story than they are at the beginning. A Christmas Carol is a personal story. Planescape: Torment is a personal story.

By that definition, then The Sandman is not a personal story, as Dream ultimately refuses to change his nature and dies as a result of it. Did you hear that, Neil Gaiman? Batlin's found you out, you ****ing limey hack!

I would argue that any character development in Planescape: Torment is totally the choice of the player, though the story certainly facilitates it. I would also argue that any change in Hawke's character is the choice of the player and many people end in different places than they started.

But that's not what people really mean by "personal story." You're interpreting that phrase to mean the same thing as "character arc", but it's not the same thing.

When people praise the more "personal" story of DA2, they are referring to Hawke's role in world-scale events; while the Warden sets out to meddle in international politics, and any personal advancement in their own personal welfare or that of their friends and family is merely a by-product of their quest.

Hawke sets out to improve the lot of himself, his family and his friends, and is merely pulled into world-changing events by virtue of trying to do the best for himself and his family.

As I implied earlier, I should also note that a "personal story" does not require a character to be drastically changed at the end. In fact, the main characters of many tragedies refuse to accept change and come to a bad end. Is MacBeth not a "personal story" as you choose to define it because MacBeth never undergoes any character development and remains an overly ambitious and paranoid ****?

batlin wrote...

Second, the praise it gets for party members having "lives that don't revolve around the main character". This is especially confusing because as far as I can tell, your party just kind of remain in stasis in their dwellings whenever Hawke isn't around.

Your own post lists how the party members live their own lives. Your perception is that the characters simply hang around their home base, but many events occur without Hawke's involvement: Varric may confront Bartrand on his own, Aveline becomes captain on her own, Isabela recovers the artifact on her own and Anders creates his bomb ON HIS OWN. None of these things requires Hawke's involvement.

Now, your party members follow actual character arcs, which is really what you were talking about with your first point.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 18 janvier 2013 - 03:27 .

[ggghhhxxxpuf]

batlin wrote...

The scope of the narrative has nothing to do with how personal a story is, though.

Not quite, the story is personal because is Hawke's story and how he resolved/interacted with the hardships of his own life, getting rich, defending his ideals, etc.
Origins is the story about the defeat of the blight by the hands of the Warden, not much about the Warden himself outside the origins.

Maybe you and I understand the meaning of personal story diferently though.

You spend no less time with the Warden than you do with Hawke, and again, we skip almost a decade of Hawke's life, so if anything the scope of DA2 only serves to make it less personal than DA:O was.

True that, if we look at them as hours played, they probably are very similar ingame, even with the time-story span difference, but that doesn't define "personal".

I don't have to see the everyday's life of the PC to consider him more or less closer.
We see the evolution of his family, the evolution of friendship, rivalries, the evolution of the city; that evolution of, let's call it "Kirkwall's big family", is what made it feel very close.
The origins were the only personal stories, apart from some tidbits here and there, that DAO had. It was a good heroic story, but not very personal.

People show up who had apparently befreinded Hawke in that stretch of time, and you the player have no idea who they are even though all the dialogue options assume you do. Its made very clear that these are Hawke's friends, not yours. It's very difficult for me to see how DA2's story is especially personal when Hawke's life is made so nebulous to us. 

Are you talking about the potion, poison and rune makers? Because I don't remember anyone else to fit that description. If you are talking about the family, well, I didn't know who Jowan was before he said he was the warden's childhood friend, same with Tamlen, etc, etc. This doesn't bother me much, to be honest.

*snip*
My point is that while the characters say that they are doing things apart from bumming around with Hawke, none of them ever seem to do anything important unless Hawke is around, nor do they change unless Hawke is there to impose his friendship/rivalry on them. Hell, Fenris maintains his assertion that all mages are exactly like Tevinter mages, despite spending six years  in a place with mages that very obviously are not. The three year gap between each act may as well be three day gaps based on how static your friends remain over those periods of time. The only character that actually does make you believe time has passed since you last saw them is your sibling, because they have a noticeably different outlook when they return as a Grey Warden then they had before. Not the case for anyone else in your group.

In my opinion, characters don't radically change, but they are influenced by you if you rival or befriend them and by the way you resolve their personal quests etc, like you could with Leliana or Alistair, unless it wasn't really decisive in anything but the fr/rvl meter.
I have to admit I would've liked even more interactions and differences (wich I hope we will have in DA3), but as far as Origins and DA2 go, I still prefer DA2 approach; for one, I was finally able to disagree with companions without hostility.

And as for cosmetic changes, yes, I agree, DA2 lacked them as DAO did, I hope the world and companions feel more alive in DA3.

[AntiChri5]

Is BSN seriously complaining that DA2 gets too much praise?

[Renmiri1]

addiction21 wrote...


Dairsmuid, Rivain, and maybe Kirkwall.

http://dragonage.wik...ht_of_Annulment

A total of 14-15 Circle Towers in Thedas.


Not one mention of all or even most of the circles being annulled.

Yup, in Asunder only 2 were (or 3), the rest was still there at the end of Asunder.

Which is pretty irrelevant since the poster in question said he didn't care about mages IN DAO since all the circles in Thedas are destroyed which was very strange to me as even by the end of Asunder we still have mages. But I guess I misinterpreted the remark

Modifié par Renmiri1, 18 janvier 2013 - 03:21 .

[Renmiri1]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Is BSN seriously complaining that DA2 gets too much praise?

No just the OP 

[addiction21]

FreshIstay wrote...

How bout Reading Asunder ^

I did. They are disbanded or do you not know the difference between that and destroyed? I would not be surprised. You are wrong. Now provide some evidence since you made the claim and I have shown that not all or even most of the circles in Thedas were destroyed.

Until you actually provide it I will just back to ignoring you and not getting another thread derailed.

[AlexanderCousland]

Psssh. Dont try to take some sort of moral high ground on me like you dont participate in debate' s that' s kind of hypotcritical. Abolished/Disbanded/Disolved/Destroyed we can go on and on with semantic' s you know the point of what I was trying to say. Lmao. THE CIRCLE DOESNT EXIST ANYMORE, you know the Chantry has fallen to Pieces from the beggining of the game and the entire world is about to go to War, and that' s why I said WHY play? What' s the point?

[Plaintiff]

FreshIstay wrote...

Psssh. Dont try to take some sort of moral high ground on me like you dont participate in debate' s that' s kind of hypotcritical. Abolished/Disbanded/Disolved/Destroyed we can go on and on with semantic' s you know the point of what I was trying to say. Lmao. THE CIRCLE DOESNT EXIST ANYMORE, you know the Chantry has fallen to Pieces from the beggining of the game and the entire world is about to go to War, and that' s why I said WHY play? What' s the point?

Well, I dunno about you, but when I play a story-based game, I do it because I want to know the story. As in the whole story, not just how it ends.

[addiction21]

FreshIstay wrote...

Psssh. Dont try to take some sort of moral high ground on me like you dont participate in debate' s that' s kind of hypotcritical. Abolished/Disbanded/Disolved/Destroyed we can go on and on with semantic' s you know the point of what I was trying to say. Lmao. THE CIRCLE DOESNT EXIST ANYMORE, you know the Chantry has fallen to Pieces from the beggining of the game and the entire world is about to go to War, and that' s why I said WHY play? What' s the point?

I know what I did and I don't like to get threads locked bickering with some person that does not even know the meaning of the words he is using.
The differences between destroyed or annulled and disbanded are not semantics. You were blatantly wrong and trying to move the goalpost as usual. No one can know what your point is if you do not even know what you yourself are saying.

Want to go further send me a PM or make a thread for this.

[gosimmons]

Wouldn't it be better if the mentioned aspects were further improved in the third game rather than not included at all?

Modifié par gosimmons, 18 janvier 2013 - 05:44 .