224 réponses à ce sujet

[David Gaider]

esper wrote...
Because people needs a label for big horned Giant that is non-religious and doesn't involve converted elves and humans too. What about Meeras, sure his former Qunari 'friends' would properly still label him Tal-Vashot, but Meeras rejected that role specifically.

So because Maraas doesn't like the term tal'vashoth, you decide you need a separate word for it?

Whatever. As I said earlier, if you'd really rather use terms incorrectly then do as you like. Just don't pretend you're a) being more accurate or that that will ever be reflected in the game or supporting material.

Modifié par David Gaider, 24 janvier 2013 - 06:04 .

[esper]

David Gaider wrote...

esper wrote...
Because people needs a label for big horned Giant that is non-religious and doesn't involve converted elves and humans too. What about Meeras, sure his former Qunari 'friends' would properly still label him Tal-Vashot, but Meeras rejected that role specifically.

So because Maraas doesn't like the term tal'vashoth, you decide you need a separate word for it?

Whatever. As I said earlier, if you'd really rather use terms incorrectly then do as you like. Just don't pretend you're a) being more accurate or that that will ever be reflected in the game or supporting material.

I need to be able to say: Now I am talking about the Big Horned (or not horned) Giants as a whole, just as sometimes I talk about elves without distinquishing between city elves and dalish.

Quanri involves, non-giant races.

Tal-Vashot involved only those giants (and other races?) that have turned away from the Qun.

Just as I need to be able to distinquish between the gruops, I need a Superterm to generlize the Big Grey Horned (or not) People, when it for some reason is necessary to talk about the Big Greyed Horned People without distinquishing between Tal-Vashot and Qunari.

Kossith is still the only thing coming close to that.

Modifié par esper, 24 janvier 2013 - 06:13 .

[TheJediSaint]

You know, I don't really have a specific desire for romantic interests beyond at least one being female. Well, that and said romantic interest being tolerant of the pathological heroism my characters tend to be prone to.

[hoorayforicecream]

esper wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

esper wrote...
Because people needs a label for big horned Giant that is non-religious and doesn't involve converted elves and humans too. What about Meeras, sure his former Qunari 'friends' would properly still label him Tal-Vashot, but Meeras rejected that role specifically.

So because Maraas doesn't like the term tal'vashoth, you decide you need a separate word for it?

Whatever. As I said earlier, if you'd really rather use terms incorrectly then do as you like. Just don't pretend you're a) being more accurate or that that will ever be reflected in the game or supporting material.

I need to be able to say: Now I am talking about the Big Horned (or not horned) Giants as a whole, just as sometimes I talk about elves without distinquishing between city elves and dalish.

Quanri involves, non-giant races.

Tal-Vashot involved only those giants (and other races?) that have turned away from the Qun.

Just as I need to be able to distinquish between the gruops, I need a Superterm to generlize the Big Grey Horned (or not) People, when it for some reason is necessary to talk about the Big Greyed Horned People without distinquishing between Tal-Vashot and Qunari.

Kossith is still the only thing coming close to that.

You could just use the terms the Qunari themselves use. Qunari and Viddathari.

[Sutekh]

Sorry for the OT, but let me get this straight (I feel so lost):

- Kossith is the species (genetically) - e.g. everything big and grey (but horns are optional)
- Qunari are followers of the Qun and Kossith - e.g. Sten
- Viddathari are followers of the Qun, but not Kossith (converts) - e.g. Tallis, the elven brothers.
- Tal'vashoth are Qunari apostates. - e.g. Maaras

Or did I completely misunderstand?

[esper]

hoorayforicecream wrote...

esper wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

esper wrote...
Because people needs a label for big horned Giant that is non-religious and doesn't involve converted elves and humans too. What about Meeras, sure his former Qunari 'friends' would properly still label him Tal-Vashot, but Meeras rejected that role specifically.

So because Maraas doesn't like the term tal'vashoth, you decide you need a separate word for it?

Whatever. As I said earlier, if you'd really rather use terms incorrectly then do as you like. Just don't pretend you're a) being more accurate or that that will ever be reflected in the game or supporting material.

I need to be able to say: Now I am talking about the Big Horned (or not horned) Giants as a whole, just as sometimes I talk about elves without distinquishing between city elves and dalish.

Quanri involves, non-giant races.

Tal-Vashot involved only those giants (and other races?) that have turned away from the Qun.

Just as I need to be able to distinquish between the gruops, I need a Superterm to generlize the Big Grey Horned (or not) People, when it for some reason is necessary to talk about the Big Greyed Horned People without distinquishing between Tal-Vashot and Qunari.

Kossith is still the only thing coming close to that.

You could just use the terms the Qunari themselves use. Qunari and Viddathari.

I would love to use them, If we actually got them explained.
But Qunari, stil involve non-giant race, and so does Viddathari (those two elves were called Viddathari). Qunari doesn't seem to care much about race, which is cool, but us gamers here dissicting the world are going to need terms and wors to use.

What we need is a term for the race. If Bioware is so against Kossith, then I supposse they could advocate us use the term Giants or something. But it need to be single-wordly to override Kossith in use.

Currently when saying Kossith most here on BSN knows what I am talking about. Sadly, langue sometimes develop or side-develops in a way not intended. People making up fantasy langues are particular at risk for this since the rest of us are going to assimilate the necessary words when we discover we needs them.

If enough people uses or spells are word wrong, over time that wrong understanding risks becoming correct, simply because langue develop, so if Bioware is not going to give us a super-term for the large horned people, they must accept that BSN develops one themself.

Of course they a welcome to make an in-game correction anytime. It's their lore. But with the way Qunari works in game, Qunari vs. Tal-Vashot is simply not descriptive enough.

And... Here we have the case of langue developing.

Filament wrote...

 Mike Laidlaw used kossith one time on twitter, good enough for me. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]

It is going to happen because people need these terms.

Modifié par esper, 24 janvier 2013 - 06:28 .

[In Exile]

Sutehk, 

Kossith isn't the species, from what I understand. It was the name of (a) nation of the horned giants who converted to the Qun. 

Qunari refers to all followers born to the Qun (including elves/humans). Viddathari refers to converts. 

Modifié par In Exile, 24 janvier 2013 - 06:27 .

[esper]

Sutekh wrote...

Sorry for the OT, but let me get this straight (I feel so lost):

- Kossith is the species (genetically) - e.g. everything big and grey (but horns are optional)
- Qunari are followers of the Qun and Kossith - e.g. Sten
- Viddathari are followers of the Qun, but not Kossith (converts) - e.g. Tallis, the elven brothers.
- Tal'vashoth are Qunari apostates. - e.g. Maaras

Or did I completely misunderstand?

- Gaider doesn't like us using it that way, but a majority on BSN still doesn-
- Yes, but it is also a superterm that involved non-giants. Tallis is still Qunari, even she might have another term also because of race.
- Unsure... The games were a bit unclear here for me.
- In a way, but take in mind that Tal-Vashot still thinks that they have a specfic role to fullfill (Ie. the role of being not-Qunari), that was what Maaras turned against when he turned against his brothers. In time we might need to be able to distinquish between Tal-Vashot who full-fill their expected Tal-Vashot 'role' andTal-Vashot like Maaras.

[Sutekh]

@In Exile.

Thanks. Makes sense now.

Edit: and esper too.

Modifié par Sutekh, 24 janvier 2013 - 06:37 .

[In Exile]

Sutekh wrote...

@In Exile.

Thanks. Makes sense now.

I'm happy to help. Just, further caveats, not sure if I'm right.

[Wulfram]

I think the impression that "Tal Vashoth" only applies to a subset of ex-qunari is based on the codex on the subject, which seems to read as if it only applies to those who violently "turn against the society that cast them out", though it could be read otherwise. It seems that reading was incorrect, but it lingers. And in my case mixes with some uneasiness about defining people by their former religion.

And not having Kossith in our vocabulary still leaves us with this

(The level of overlap isn't intended to reflect reality)

Modifié par Wulfram, 24 janvier 2013 - 06:42 .

[Blackrising]

David Gaider wrote...

Get fired up wrote...
but all I want is a female kossith LI. (I'm still using the term since I don't want an actual qunari, sorry Gaider!)

I don't know why people keep apologizing when they use the term incorrectly (especially in this case, since what you seem to mean by "an actual qunari" is one who doesn't believe in the Qun-- which is a tal'vashoth). The idea that people want to use lore terms but do so incorrectly is a little dumb, but that's their problem. It doesn't upset me.

As for in-game romance options, we're well past deciding which characters can be romanced in DA3. Speculate on who they might be, if you prefer, but there's really no point in anyone requesting them. Sorry.

Does that mean it's too late to ask for the Eluvian as LI? Goddammit!

On another note, I think most of us here are aware that it's way to late to change anything about the LIs. Not to mention that many of the requests are probably not meant as serious suggestions. *points to signature*
It's just fun to discuss which characters might add to the story and in what way.

[Xilizhra]

David Gaider wrote...

esper wrote...
Because people needs a label for big horned Giant that is non-religious and doesn't involve converted elves and humans too. What about Meeras, sure his former Qunari 'friends' would properly still label him Tal-Vashot, but Meeras rejected that role specifically.

So because Maraas doesn't like the term tal'vashoth, you decide you need a separate word for it?

Whatever. As I said earlier, if you'd really rather use terms incorrectly then do as you like. Just don't pretend you're a) being more accurate or that that will ever be reflected in the game or supporting material.

I thought that the Tal-Vashoth were the "true grey," the ones who filled a role of attacking the qunari? Qunari who just left the Qun and didn't do anything with it again were just "vashoth." At least as I remember it.

[LobselVith8]

esper wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I can see your point in the problems that can arise with players having knowledge about certain characters that the new protagonist wouldn't. However, I don't think that's going to happen. And I'm concerned about how much railroading might be involved in Inquisition, since Dragon Age II had so much because of the difficulty that the developers had in accomodating the different outcomes in Origins. I sincerely have no interest in working with people like Cassandra, Cullen, or Tallis with a new protagonist.

Hopefully, we will (at least) have the same option we had in Origins to refuse companions, or kick them out of the group. While I think the protagonist wouldn't have the same information as The Warden or the Champion, I doubt that Cullen, Cassandra, or Tallis are going to hide who they are to the protagonist.

Cassandra seems to be working for Divine Justina V, so I don't think she's going to aid the protagonist if his motives and goals oppose her own (or the Divine's goals, if Cassandra and her sect of Seekers are still working for the Divine). Cullen dismisses mages as though they shouldn't be treated as people, and seems to support the Tranquil Solution; even if Culen has changed since Kirkwall, I don't see him supporting the protagonist who is pro-mage or an open apostate (especially a blood mage). And Tallis refers to mages as animals in 'Redemption', and her Qunari views are simply sickening.

I think enough exposure to these three people would allow the protagonist to easily oppose having them as part of the protagonist's group. 

I do think that we are stuck with Cullen and Cassandra too yeah. I think we might be able to avoid Tallis.

I dislike the idea of being stuck with Cullen or Cassandra. I don't have any desire to kill them (unless they oppose the goals of my protagonist and threaten his life like any typical enemy), but I don't see any point in being saddled with Cullen or Cassandra. Cullen seemed very pro-templar as Knight-Captain when he gave his views on how he thought mages shouldn't be treated as people, how he saw them as weapons, his apparent support for the Tranquil Solution, and his participation in Meredith's Right of Annulment; he only opposed Meredith when she threatened Hawke specifically (which made little sense for pro-mage Hawke). I genuinely dislike the character. Cassandra seems to support Divine Justina V, and by extension the Chantry of Andraste, and I still have no idea why she sought the Champion when she initially thought Hawke was spreading subversion against the Chantry. I'm not interested in working alongside a character who works for an organization that I find to be repugnant and monstrous in their views and actions.

If the protagonist supports mage autonomy, for example, I don't see why Cullen or Cassandra would assist the protagonist. And if the protagonist is an open apostate, wouldn't that make Cullen and Cassandra oppose the protagonist, especially if he is a blood mage? I think it would be better to simply have the option to accept their help, rather than have it forced on us.

esper wrote...

But that still doesn't mean I think it is a good idea.

Of course, I understand. I simply hope it isn't the case.

esper wrote...

I love Anders as a character, and my Hawkes certainly love him completely, but I can still acknowledge the problem, that still doesn't change the fact that the difference between Player Knowledge vs. Character knowledge is huge and there is no good way around it.

Either the character does nothing to fill in the gap, meaning that the player is essentially left with the feeling of 'the character are purposely lying' or the character does fill in the gap leaving the player with a feeling, 'I know already'. With an companion or even worse an LI this is a serious problem. 

I can see your point. I suppose it can go either way. I'm trying to keep an open mind, despite some of the news that makes me wary about Inquisition.

[David Gaider]

Enough on the qunari. If you want to discuss it, start a different topic. I only meant to address the people who apparently feel the need to apologize for mentioning "kossith" as if it somehow makes me angry. It's eyeroll-inducing mostly because they think they're being accurate but they're not-- nobody is going to misconstrue what you mean by "qunari"-- but I hardly care what term people want to use, despite it not being used in a way we ever shall.

The topic here, however, is romances. So please drop the tangent.

Modifié par David Gaider, 24 janvier 2013 - 07:46 .

[Travie]

Funny, I was just discussing this off site...

Of course, most of that discussion was dominated by all the missteps these last few years by Bioware...

Not too much Bioware love out there on the internets these days...

[Reikilea]

Wait a minute. LI´s are already decided..I suppose its understandable, time and all that, but damn I was late. So I hope new LI´s made it. Completely new. Not Cullen. But I suppose if we are stuck with him, we will get some mage as a counter-romance - and I can live with that one.

I´m fine without quanari. Or kossith. Or whatever that is.

(To the Cassandra and Cullen, it will feel weird with two chantry people in the squad).

[Dino]

 I want to romance a dragon. 
Make it happen Bioware.

[esper]

David Gaider wrote...

Enough on the qunari. If you want to discuss it, start a different topic. I only meant to address the people who apparently feel the need to apologize for mentioning "kossith" as if it somehow makes me angry. It's eyeroll-inducing mostly because they think they're being accurate but they're not-- nobody is going to misconstrue what you mean by "qunari"-- but I hardly care what term people want to use, despite it not being used in a way we ever shall.

The topic here, however, is romances. So please drop the tangent.

(but you started it;))

I am dying to know what you actually think about the whole character knowlegde vs. player knowlegde that I was discussing with Lob, I actually think it is a serious problem.

[esper]

LobselVith8 wrote...

esper wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

I can see your point in the problems that can arise with players having knowledge about certain characters that the new protagonist wouldn't. However, I don't think that's going to happen. And I'm concerned about how much railroading might be involved in Inquisition, since Dragon Age II had so much because of the difficulty that the developers had in accomodating the different outcomes in Origins. I sincerely have no interest in working with people like Cassandra, Cullen, or Tallis with a new protagonist.

Hopefully, we will (at least) have the same option we had in Origins to refuse companions, or kick them out of the group. While I think the protagonist wouldn't have the same information as The Warden or the Champion, I doubt that Cullen, Cassandra, or Tallis are going to hide who they are to the protagonist.

Cassandra seems to be working for Divine Justina V, so I don't think she's going to aid the protagonist if his motives and goals oppose her own (or the Divine's goals, if Cassandra and her sect of Seekers are still working for the Divine). Cullen dismisses mages as though they shouldn't be treated as people, and seems to support the Tranquil Solution; even if Culen has changed since Kirkwall, I don't see him supporting the protagonist who is pro-mage or an open apostate (especially a blood mage). And Tallis refers to mages as animals in 'Redemption', and her Qunari views are simply sickening.

I think enough exposure to these three people would allow the protagonist to easily oppose having them as part of the protagonist's group. 

I do think that we are stuck with Cullen and Cassandra too yeah. I think we might be able to avoid Tallis.

I dislike the idea of being stuck with Cullen or Cassandra. I don't have any desire to kill them (unless they oppose the goals of my protagonist and threaten his life like any typical enemy), but I don't see any point in being saddled with Cullen or Cassandra. Cullen seemed very pro-templar as Knight-Captain when he gave his views on how he thought mages shouldn't be treated as people, how he saw them as weapons, his apparent support for the Tranquil Solution, and his participation in Meredith's Right of Annulment; he only opposed Meredith when she threatened Hawke specifically (which made little sense for pro-mage Hawke). I genuinely dislike the character. Cassandra seems to support Divine Justina V, and by extension the Chantry of Andraste, and I still have no idea why she sought the Champion when she initially thought Hawke was spreading subversion against the Chantry. I'm not interested in working alongside a character who works for an organization that I find to be repugnant and monstrous in their views and actions.

If the protagonist supports mage autonomy, for example, I don't see why Cullen or Cassandra would assist the protagonist. And if the protagonist is an open apostate, wouldn't that make Cullen and Cassandra oppose the protagonist, especially if he is a blood mage? I think it would be better to simply have the option to accept their help, rather than have it forced on us.

esper wrote...

I love Anders as a character, and my Hawkes certainly love him completely, but I can still acknowledge the problem, that still doesn't change the fact that the difference between Player Knowledge vs. Character knowledge is huge and there is no good way around it.

Either the character does nothing to fill in the gap, meaning that the player is essentially left with the feeling of 'the character are purposely lying' or the character does fill in the gap leaving the player with a feeling, 'I know already'. With an companion or even worse an LI this is a serious problem. 

I can see your point. I suppose it can go either way. I'm trying to keep an open mind, despite some of the news that makes me wary about Inquisition.

I am sure you and I like the thought of Cullen and Cassandra equally little, but I am trying to keep personal emotion for certain characters out of it. Those thing a better left for the pro-mage and anti-chantry threads or for discussion the characters purposefully.


My concern right now is getting too much of character with too much prior exposure into the game as companion and LI's.
The rumour so far goes to, Cullen, Cassandra and the crazy guy from Asunder, I understand that people wants cameros, but these characters are better left for roles kept outside of the companion roster. There are tons of important NPC roles that doesn't demand that our character gets to know them on a personal level as the LI roles basically demands. And these along with the name are what makes me wary of da;I,

There is also a completely different problem to tackle: execpatations. If Cullen for example is suppossed to be the guy humanizing the templars it will utterly fail for people like you and me who alreayd know his character and have taking a dislike to him, in fact it will do the exact opposite.

No matter what Cullen is an unrealiable turncoat to me. I have seen him change opion rapidly over two games and while I do not think it unrealistic for a guy who has been through what he has been through, I as a player is incapable of see him as moderate since I will know what he did in da2.

[n2nw]

esper wrote...

No matter what Cullen is an unrealiable turncoat to me. I have seen him change opion rapidly over two games and while I do not think it unrealistic for a guy who has been through what he has been through, I as a player is incapable of see him as moderate since I will know what he did in da2.

Cullen is hawt and therefore, I forgive him.  I would adore having him.  I would also like to have him as a LI. 

And I would like to have the option to tell off the LI or punish them a little if I get treated poorly.  I don't want to lose them over it, but if they're going to be buttholes, they should have to suffer a little angst as well and get over it like my PC did.  (Alistair & the whole non-noble thing, Fenris and the whole memory thing, Anders and the whole kill-them-all thing...)  A good relationship can persevere through mistakes and shortcomings, but that doesn't mean someone should just get away scott free with acting like a jerk.

And since I mentioned Alistair, I would really like to NOT have to make horrid choices in order to keep the LI.  Anything that makes someone unfaithful to me is just not fun.  I can choose between them and another companion that I really like (sorry, Ashley), forgive them for murdering people that I really like (sorry, Grand Cleric), but sleeping with someone else affects me directly and, after all, this is my game so it really is all about me.  And I like it that way.   I also don't want to get dumped by the LI through no fault of my own.  If I really ****** them off, I deserve to get kicked to the curb.  But if I'm a good girl (mostly), then I want to reap the rewards of those actions, not get kicked in the teeth.

Modifié par n2nw, 26 janvier 2013 - 05:37 .

[Blackrising]

n2nw wrote...

esper wrote...

No matter what Cullen is an unrealiable turncoat to me. I have seen him change opion rapidly over two games and while I do not think it unrealistic for a guy who has been through what he has been through, I as a player is incapable of see him as moderate since I will know what he did in da2.

Cullen is hawt and therefore, I forgive him.  I would adore having him.  I would also like to have him as a LI. 

And I would like to have the option to tell off the LI or punish them a little if I get treated poorly.  I don't want to lose them over it, but if they're going to be buttholes, they should have to suffer a little angst as well and get over it like my PC did.  (Alistair & the whole non-noble thing, Fenris and the whole memory thing, Anders and the whole kill-them-all thing...)  A good relationship can persevere through mistakes and shortcomings, but that doesn't mean someone should just get away scott free with acting like a jerk.

And since I mentioned Alistair, I would really like to NOT have to make horrid choices in order to keep the LI.  Anything that makes someone unfaithful to me is just not fun.  I can choose between them and another companion that I really like (sorry, Ashley), forgive them for murdering people that I really like (sorry, Grand Cleric), but sleeping with someone else affects me directly and, after all, this is my game so it really is all about me.  And I like it that way.   I also don't want to get dumped by the LI through no fault of my own.  If I really ****** them off, I deserve to get kicked to the curb.  But if I'm a good girl (mostly), then I want to reap the rewards of those actions, not get kicked in the teeth.

I feel the same way, though I'm sure many people here will disagree.
Being forced to watch my partner get it on with someone else is something that I will inevitably take personally, even if it's just a video game. And that will ruin that romance for me forever.
I didn't mind it too much in DA:O as it was optional, though it did lead to my one and only female Warden doing the ultimate sacrifice. I could never bear Alistair putting his grubby paws on Morrigan...and she wasn't even with my Warden. So i guess I prefer death over cheating. (From that point onward, I have always played a male Warden, even though I dislike playing a male PC.)
Pretty skewered priorities, yeah, but there you have it.

[BlueMagitek]

In Alistar's case, you were given plenty of warning. Not only from Wynne, but from Eoman's wish for him to assume the throne.

Going back on topic, I would like a female warrior LI, as we have been lacking in that role. Hopefully it's not a Qunari, because I'm sure the PC has no desire to go through their bizarre breeding rituals (thanks for the mental picture, Sten). Certainly can't be a Dalish. I would also prefer it not be a dwarf. I'd prefer an attitude full of dark humor or cheerful dark humor. =D

[Sable Rhapsody]

BlueMagitek wrote...
In Alistar's case, you were given plenty of warning. Not only from Wynne, but from Eoman's wish for him to assume the throne.

The same is true of Morrigan and Anders.  Those three characters have "THIS COULD END VERY BADLY" written all over them in neon lights.  Of course, I still romanced them 

Being able to call out the LI on his/her bull should also go both ways.  If the PC is being unreasonable or crappy, the LI should be able to respond to it.  Of course, people get touchy on this front, but it'd be realistic and interesting.  I know I've had PCs who could really use a good smack upside the head every now and then.

Modifié par Sable Rhapsody, 26 janvier 2013 - 10:32 .