224 réponses à ce sujet

[Yumichika]

mopotter wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I for one hope the writers continue to not worry much about possessive feelings players may develop towards fictional romance interests, and certainly not worry about it at the expense of drama.

Ahhh, but if we care about the characters, it shows how well written they are.  If I didn't care about the characters they gave us,  I for one, probably wouldn't care that much how the story went.

Well written fictional characters have always brought out emotions,  I love Edmond Dantes.  I love the story and the characters and the ending.   Edward Rochester,  Simon Tregarth and Per Hiero Desteen.  Some of the BioWare characters are included in that list of written male characters I care about.  

+1
In general i'm not that much attached in fictionnal characters. Video games, movies, songs, comics etc they are all the same. I can't understand why people can get touched with a character in a movie and why they can't if it's video game. Plus people do love romance in general specially if it's epic and heroic.

I start understand the point view of certain regarding Morrigan.
If the warden is female and dates Alistair then Morrigan appears to be a big b...ch

[Blackrising]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I for one hope the writers continue to not worry much about possessive feelings players may develop towards fictional romance interests, and certainly not worry about it at the expense of drama.

Wish Fulfillment:  The Game already exists.  We don't need BioWare games to be that too.

Just so you know, I deeply enjoy living vicariously through fictional characters.

[Renmiri1]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I for one hope the writers continue to not worry much about possessive feelings players may develop towards fictional romance interests, and certainly not worry about it at the expense of drama.

Wish Fulfillment:  The Game already exists.  We don't need BioWare games to be that too.

Is not the same at all. Sims 3 is pretty much all headcannon, there is no story. Role playing on Second Life is also mentioned as an alternative but again, no story. And no point, since there are no quests or bosses to defeat. It is even more "loose" than Skyrim.

The whole idea that people who like romances in a game are some kind of dateless teens or deviant sexual fetishists (as stated in another thread here) is offensive and bogus.  People don't play Bioware games for "dating" or for "pr0n" because both of those can be done a lot further on other games.

Second Life does have the pixel pr0n factor and I gotta tell you, it goes many miles beyond what you see in Bioware games. Hentai also goes a lot further. And then there's internet pr0n. There are plenty of sites to see more than a couple in their underwar, fading to black. 

If playing a game that has this teenage level romance scenes embarasses you among your friends, I suggest that you need to either grow up or get new friends. 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 29 janvier 2013 - 09:51 .

[esper]

Renmiri1 wrote...

esper wrote...

**snip**
Alistair does NOT want to sleep with Morrigan. It is humiliating for him. He is not Zevran, he places a huge intimacy value in sex, think about how long it takes before your warden can get him into bed. And then you demand to get an equal opportunity to cheat (And this is cheat for you are going behind his back) on him.That's just... wrong.

Do the 3some with Isabella on the Pearl and you will see Alisatair quite likes the idea of beding another female. He got pretty disappointed when my Warden said it was a one time only thing. 

PS: And makes for a very funny "reunion" on DA2 if you take Isabela to meet him 

That's different in that is with your PC. That is him a bit warringly exploring his sexuality and decide that it was worth it. He would not have done it had your PC not been there. And it still doesn't mean that losing his virginity isn't a big deal for him, or that he doesn't place intimacy value in sex. Because he does. It is simply him broading his sexual horizont by prodding off your PC.

Try thinking about it this way.

Say your lover comes up and says that only way to save both off you is to sleep with a man you explicity loathe and don't trust. Now you are perfectly willing to take the fall for both you and your love interest and die in their place, but your lover more and less guilt trips you into havin sex with this person and then, just to add insult to the wound explicity states that you are cheating and to even things out he should have the right to go and sleep with another person. Because that was the demand that was presented, not by you but by some off those who are totally ignoring that we as a PC is pressuring an uwilling person to have sex (and a child) with a person they don't want to have sex with and then have the gall to suggest that the victim in this case was the one doing their PC wrong.

It is just wrong on so many levels.

Modifié par esper, 29 janvier 2013 - 10:34 .

[esper]

mopotter wrote...

esper wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

I think making Alistair do the Dark Ritual is pretty brutal. And it's good storytelling, but yeah, it's brutal. ESPECIALLY if you didn't romance Alistair and he's still a virgin. Geez. It's a horrible, nasty way to lose your virginity.

I didn't romance Alistair, so I think I was able to get the brutal effects of that choice in the game without feeling upset about it. If my LI Zevran had been forced to sleep with Morrigan (or anyone; I've nothing against Morrigan) I think I would have felt differently.

If my LI Fenris had been forced to sleep with someone, I would have been... pretty upset. Not because I'd be jealous (he's my canon LI but I'm not "into" him) but because of his past.

I think forcing anyone to sleep with someone is just nasty, nasty business. But... good storytelling. Aughgh I have no answer to this problem.

It was brutal and had my warden not spend so much time to get both Alistair and Anora to rule Fereldan together then I might have let him to the sacrifce.

But my warden was best friends with Morrigan and was sure that a common ruled Fereldan between Alistair and Anora was for the best, so she couldn't let Alistair die and she was not willing to do the sacrife herself, so yes, sorry Alistair.

My female Warden was best friends with Alistair but loved Zev.  She also worked very hard to get Alistair and Anora together and had Loghain join the Wardens and I didn't make him do the ritual.  Alistair was upset but after Loghain died Alistair agreed that having him become a Warden had been the best option.   I think he does this if Loghain lives by doing the ritual also.  

It really irritated me that if Alistair "loved" my Warden he wouldn't come back after going on his drunken hissy fit and apologize, or just go off and fight on his own, then come back and apologize.  I really dislike the idea that his friendship was worth more than his love which is the way BW wrote it.  

I can play it now, after my ME3 endings, but I still hate the dark ritual with a passion for my female characters that romances Alistair.  And to add insult to injury, I had to watch Alistair crawling up to Morrigan while my warden spent the night before battle alone.    

 My male character romanced Morrigan so it was no problem.  He's out there looking for her. 

Sometimes friendship IS more worth than romance, in that in some thing it is easier to forgive a friend than a person who is supposes to love you on a closer level.

But Alistair always wander off drunken wherever he loves you or not if Anora is alone on the throne. I had a friendship Alistair do just that in one playthrough.

But my canon warden who loves Zev and have to reject Alistair down the line kills Loghain because she knows how much it matters to Alistair (who she does come to think of as a brother figure) and because Loghain personally insulted her, which leaves her with the dark ritual and since she trust Morrigan her only concern how it would affect Alistair and since she doesn't place much emotional value in sex herself, she doesn't quite realize that she is more and less pressuring an unwilling person to sex. She just wants to save everyone she cares about and doesn't really think about how little Alistair might want to be saved that way.

[esper]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I for one hope the writers continue to not worry much about possessive feelings players may develop towards fictional romance interests, and certainly not worry about it at the expense of drama.

Wish Fulfillment:  The Game already exists.  We don't need BioWare games to be that too.

I do not worry about that bioware does loves their drama.

[Renmiri1]

esper wrote...

That's different in that is with your PC. That is him a bit warringly exploring his sexuality and decide that it was worth it. He would not have done it had your PC not been there. And it still doesn't mean that losing his virginity isn't a big deal for him, or that he doesn't place intimacy value in sex. Because he does. It is simply him broading his sexual horizont by prodding off your PC.

Try thinking about it this way.

Say your lover comes up and says that only way to save both off you is to sleep with a man you explicity loathe and don't trust. Now you are perfectly willing to take the fall for both you and your love interest and die in their place, but your lover more and less guilt trips you into havin sex with this person and then, just to add insult to the wound explicity states that you are cheating and to even things out he should have the right to go and sleep with another person. Because that was the demand that was presented, not by you but by some off those who are totally ignoring that we as a PC is pressuring an uwilling person to have sex (and a child) with a person they don't want to have sex with and then have the gall to suggest that the victim in this case was the one doing their PC wrong.

It is just wrong on so many levels.

I agree that a real person would / could feel the way you describe but I didn't headcannon all that angst for Alistair. But that is the way I perceived it, it doesn't mean you have to see it the same way as I do.

To me was one of those "is just a game" moments where my RL morals and what I do in game are completely different. For instance, on Skyrim I sacrificed one of my companions to Boethia to obtain a rare piece of armor. Would I ever do anything remotely similar in RL or defend it as just ? Not on a million years. And even in game it did bother me a bit. So I see where you are coming from.

I don't think the game writers wanted to leave you with a bad taste in your mouth about pushing Alistair into Morrigan's bed. Perhaps on dA3 such scenes will be written in a way both of us can play and sleep well at night 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 29 janvier 2013 - 11:55 .

[upsettingshorts]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I for one hope the writers continue to not worry much about possessive feelings players may develop towards fictional romance interests, and certainly not worry about it at the expense of drama.

Wish Fulfillment:  The Game already exists.  We don't need BioWare games to be that too.

Is not the same at all. Sims 3 is pretty much all headcannon, there is no story. Role playing on Second Life is also mentioned as an alternative but again, no story. And no point, since there are no quests or bosses to defeat. It is even more "loose" than Skyrim.

The whole idea that people who like romances in a game are some kind of dateless teens or deviant sexual fetishists (as stated in another thread here) is offensive and bogus.  People don't play Bioware games for "dating" or for "pr0n" because both of those can be done a lot further on other games.

Second Life does have the pixel pr0n factor and I gotta tell you, it goes many miles beyond what you see in Bioware games. Hentai also goes a lot further. And then there's internet pr0n. There are plenty of sites to see more than a couple in their underwar, fading to black. 

If playing a game that has this teenage level romance scenes embarasses you among your friends, I suggest that you need to either grow up or get new friends. 

A host of people are misinterpreting what I felt was a plainly obvious criticism.  So I will spell it out for everyone who replied as if I was saying something else:

The keyword in my post is possessive.

To which posters and complaints am I referring then?  Those that concern themselves with the "fidelity" of their chosen romance option, often while stretching their definition of what would constitute loyal or fair behavior outside the constraints of the game or reason itself.  

That isn't to say that players cannot play characters that would feel betrayed by their chosen love interest for whatever reason is befitting that character.  But that is almost never how these posts approach the issue.  It is always a personal betrayal by either the character in question or - worse - by the writers, having led such a precious and cherished thing down an unexpected and unwanted path.  You know, because of the "story" or whatever.

So whenever I see a poster angry about Alistair or Fenris' alleged cheating (the latter is especially insane, given that players claim his sleeping with Isabela in games they are not romancing him constitutes unacceptable infidelity to the extent some sociopaths immature people sell her to the Arishok rather than put up with it), I roll my eyes.  But I don't always post.  To each their own, of course.  Going around telling people how to feel is a pointless and futile exercise.  That said...

When do I post?  When this kind of opinion is promoted to "the writers shouldn't do [this/that]" levels of rhetoric.  Then I'm going to be as loud, or louder, voicing my disagreement on principle.  

"I want the [romances/friendships] to [play out exactly how I want] and not make me feel [list of unwanted emotions]" argument is something I will continue to disagree with.  Because the romances need not exercises in wish fulfillment, and when they are, they are likely to suffer for it. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 30 janvier 2013 - 12:13 .

[Yumichika]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

..."I want the [romances/friendships] to [play out exactly how I want] and not make me feel [list of unwanted emotions]" argument is something I will continue to disagree with.  Because the romances need not exercises in wish fulfillment, and when they are, they are likely to suffer for it. 

Well first of all it's a game plenty of surprises good or bad and the challenge is there.
Morrigan did not force nobody.

If u are her lover beyond her primary objective, she proposed to save ur life + that baby will not be evil or die at all.

If u are with Alistair or a woman it's different but again u had the choice. Dieing with honor or accepting her sacrifice, cause that poor girl will sacrifice her virginity too [ecept if u succeed to sleep with her with the one time random opportunity she will offer u]

Morrigan is not the one to blame. The destiny of the wardens is cruel, they don't have futur at all. Why blaming Morrigan who is showing some pity?

[Hadeedak]

Me, I'd like one like Nathaniel, Sten, Varric, or Aveline. You know, someone who can handle their own issues to some extent. Someone who is a little less dependent on your PC for emotional security. I'd like to see a bit of depth and maybe some situations where the PC needs help -- like the keep rescue in DA or Jacob asking femShep how she's actually holding up. And I'd prefer it start as a bromance before slipping into smoochies or whatever.

[mopotter]

esper wrote...

mopotter wrote...

esper wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

I think making Alistair do the Dark Ritual is pretty brutal. And it's good storytelling, but yeah, it's brutal. ESPECIALLY if you didn't romance Alistair and he's still a virgin. Geez. It's a horrible, nasty way to lose your virginity.

I didn't romance Alistair, so I think I was able to get the brutal effects of that choice in the game without feeling upset about it. If my LI Zevran had been forced to sleep with Morrigan (or anyone; I've nothing against Morrigan) I think I would have felt differently.

If my LI Fenris had been forced to sleep with someone, I would have been... pretty upset. Not because I'd be jealous (he's my canon LI but I'm not "into" him) but because of his past.

I think forcing anyone to sleep with someone is just nasty, nasty business. But... good storytelling. Aughgh I have no answer to this problem.

It was brutal and had my warden not spend so much time to get both Alistair and Anora to rule Fereldan together then I might have let him to the sacrifce.

But my warden was best friends with Morrigan and was sure that a common ruled Fereldan between Alistair and Anora was for the best, so she couldn't let Alistair die and she was not willing to do the sacrife herself, so yes, sorry Alistair.

My female Warden was best friends with Alistair but loved Zev.  She also worked very hard to get Alistair and Anora together and had Loghain join the Wardens and I didn't make him do the ritual.  Alistair was upset but after Loghain died Alistair agreed that having him become a Warden had been the best option.   I think he does this if Loghain lives by doing the ritual also.  

It really irritated me that if Alistair "loved" my Warden he wouldn't come back after going on his drunken hissy fit and apologize, or just go off and fight on his own, then come back and apologize.  I really dislike the idea that his friendship was worth more than his love which is the way BW wrote it.  

I can play it now, after my ME3 endings, but I still hate the dark ritual with a passion for my female characters that romances Alistair.  And to add insult to injury, I had to watch Alistair crawling up to Morrigan while my warden spent the night before battle alone.    

 My male character romanced Morrigan so it was no problem.  He's out there looking for her. 

Sometimes friendship IS more worth than romance, in that in some thing it is easier to forgive a friend than a person who is supposes to love you on a closer level.

But Alistair always wander off drunken wherever he loves you or not if Anora is alone on the throne. I had a friendship Alistair do just that in one playthrough.

But my canon warden who loves Zev and have to reject Alistair down the line kills Loghain because she knows how much it matters to Alistair (who she does come to think of as a brother figure) and because Loghain personally insulted her, which leaves her with the dark ritual and since she trust Morrigan her only concern how it would affect Alistair and since she doesn't place much emotional value in sex herself, she doesn't quite realize that she is more and less pressuring an unwilling person to sex. She just wants to save everyone she cares about and doesn't really think about how little Alistair might want to be saved that way.

Sorry it's getting long, I'm not sure how to get rid of some of the quotes that don't really apply.  

Yes he does run off no matter what and that is what irritates me.  It does not matter if  your approval is maxed out or so low it's non existent. For me, it is a way to force me to either make him King or do the dark ritual.  I would not have minded that choice if he ran when your approval  were not maxed out.   I'd cuss him out and go on to finish the fight without him.

I wish they had done this like the confrontation with Zev.  If your friendship/love isn't high he will join the crows when they attempt to kill you the 2nd time.  If your friendship/love is topped out he fights for you.

  I also had a character who killed Loghain, who let Alistair kill Loghain and even Dog killed Loghain.  I also had a character who was best friends with Morrigan and talked Alistair into the dark ritual because she also trusted Morrigan.   And I had a mage who told Anora she may be Queen but the mage would be the ruler behind Alistair. I would have just liked one option where the warden and Alistair could survive together without the dark ritual or having him marry Anora.   Though that said, I do like the Alistair and Anora couple when they end up working together and Anora admits he's not what she expected.

I do hope the next game has character/romances that do make me care about them and with the previous games, for me at least, they probably will.

[esper]

mopotter wrote...

esper wrote...

mopotter wrote...

esper wrote...

motomotogirl wrote...

I think making Alistair do the Dark Ritual is pretty brutal. And it's good storytelling, but yeah, it's brutal. ESPECIALLY if you didn't romance Alistair and he's still a virgin. Geez. It's a horrible, nasty way to lose your virginity.

I didn't romance Alistair, so I think I was able to get the brutal effects of that choice in the game without feeling upset about it. If my LI Zevran had been forced to sleep with Morrigan (or anyone; I've nothing against Morrigan) I think I would have felt differently.

If my LI Fenris had been forced to sleep with someone, I would have been... pretty upset. Not because I'd be jealous (he's my canon LI but I'm not "into" him) but because of his past.

I think forcing anyone to sleep with someone is just nasty, nasty business. But... good storytelling. Aughgh I have no answer to this problem.

It was brutal and had my warden not spend so much time to get both Alistair and Anora to rule Fereldan together then I might have let him to the sacrifce.

But my warden was best friends with Morrigan and was sure that a common ruled Fereldan between Alistair and Anora was for the best, so she couldn't let Alistair die and she was not willing to do the sacrife herself, so yes, sorry Alistair.

My female Warden was best friends with Alistair but loved Zev.  She also worked very hard to get Alistair and Anora together and had Loghain join the Wardens and I didn't make him do the ritual.  Alistair was upset but after Loghain died Alistair agreed that having him become a Warden had been the best option.   I think he does this if Loghain lives by doing the ritual also.  

It really irritated me that if Alistair "loved" my Warden he wouldn't come back after going on his drunken hissy fit and apologize, or just go off and fight on his own, then come back and apologize.  I really dislike the idea that his friendship was worth more than his love which is the way BW wrote it.  

I can play it now, after my ME3 endings, but I still hate the dark ritual with a passion for my female characters that romances Alistair.  And to add insult to injury, I had to watch Alistair crawling up to Morrigan while my warden spent the night before battle alone.    

 My male character romanced Morrigan so it was no problem.  He's out there looking for her. 

Sometimes friendship IS more worth than romance, in that in some thing it is easier to forgive a friend than a person who is supposes to love you on a closer level.

But Alistair always wander off drunken wherever he loves you or not if Anora is alone on the throne. I had a friendship Alistair do just that in one playthrough.

But my canon warden who loves Zev and have to reject Alistair down the line kills Loghain because she knows how much it matters to Alistair (who she does come to think of as a brother figure) and because Loghain personally insulted her, which leaves her with the dark ritual and since she trust Morrigan her only concern how it would affect Alistair and since she doesn't place much emotional value in sex herself, she doesn't quite realize that she is more and less pressuring an unwilling person to sex. She just wants to save everyone she cares about and doesn't really think about how little Alistair might want to be saved that way.

Sorry it's getting long, I'm not sure how to get rid of some of the quotes that don't really apply.  

Yes he does run off no matter what and that is what irritates me.  It does not matter if  your approval is maxed out or so low it's non existent. For me, it is a way to force me to either make him King or do the dark ritual.  I would not have minded that choice if he ran when your approval  were not maxed out.   I'd cuss him out and go on to finish the fight without him.

I wish they had done this like the confrontation with Zev.  If your friendship/love isn't high he will join the crows when they attempt to kill you the 2nd time.  If your friendship/love is topped out he fights for you.

  I also had a character who killed Loghain, who let Alistair kill Loghain and even Dog killed Loghain.  I also had a character who was best friends with Morrigan and talked Alistair into the dark ritual because she also trusted Morrigan.   And I had a mage who told Anora she may be Queen but the mage would be the ruler behind Alistair. I would have just liked one option where the warden and Alistair could survive together without the dark ritual or having him marry Anora.   Though that said, I do like the Alistair and Anora couple when they end up working together and Anora admits he's not what she expected.

I do hope the next game has character/romances that do make me care about them and with the previous games, for me at least, they probably will.

I disagree, something should break all bonds of friendship and or romance, not matter what. Alistair gets upset and wander off is fair game and if duty in the form of Anora isn't there to bind him to the place to he gets his head cooled off, him wandering off permently is fair.

[esper]

Renmiri1 wrote...

esper wrote...

That's different in that is with your PC. That is him a bit warringly exploring his sexuality and decide that it was worth it. He would not have done it had your PC not been there. And it still doesn't mean that losing his virginity isn't a big deal for him, or that he doesn't place intimacy value in sex. Because he does. It is simply him broading his sexual horizont by prodding off your PC.

Try thinking about it this way.

Say your lover comes up and says that only way to save both off you is to sleep with a man you explicity loathe and don't trust. Now you are perfectly willing to take the fall for both you and your love interest and die in their place, but your lover more and less guilt trips you into havin sex with this person and then, just to add insult to the wound explicity states that you are cheating and to even things out he should have the right to go and sleep with another person. Because that was the demand that was presented, not by you but by some off those who are totally ignoring that we as a PC is pressuring an uwilling person to have sex (and a child) with a person they don't want to have sex with and then have the gall to suggest that the victim in this case was the one doing their PC wrong.

It is just wrong on so many levels.

I agree that a real person would / could feel the way you describe but I didn't headcannon all that angst for Alistair. But that is the way I perceived it, it doesn't mean you have to see it the same way as I do.

To me was one of those "is just a game" moments where my RL morals and what I do in game are completely different. For instance, on Skyrim I sacrificed one of my companions to Boethia to obtain a rare piece of armor. Would I ever do anything remotely similar in RL or defend it as just ? Not on a million years. And even in game it did bother me a bit. So I see where you are coming from.

I don't think the game writers wanted to leave you with a bad taste in your mouth about pushing Alistair into Morrigan's bed. Perhaps on dA3 such scenes will be written in a way both of us can play and sleep well at night 

I am sorry to be so rude as I will be in the next line, BUT you personal level of angst for Alistaïr is completely irrellevant to why I am mad.

I am mad because some (and this is not you it was the one I first started arguing with) is putting blame on Alistair, acting like he is cheating on them because they equal cheating with sleeping with another person no matter the circumstances, completly ignoring that Alistair did not want to sleep with Morrigan, the player wanted Alistair to sleep with Morrigan.

I can completely understand your in game moral being different than your real life morals. My warden certainly was a lot more selfish and a loit more... promoscius than I and my Hawke and lot more colder and willing to murder people. I can also appreciate that it is a situation in fantasy world that has no direct real world counterpart. But once you start to cast blame on Alistair for being forced to sleep with Morrigan I call the double standard.

If Alistair was a woman we would be talking something completely different here and not having the discussion. Fact is Alistair is relucant, if he isn't outright denying to do it, but the warden uses an almost jedi mindcontrol silver tounge to pressure him into it. The level off sexual enjoyment is ultimately irrellevant.

He basically says no or I would rather not. The warden says you must and he bends to the wardens will. In real life we call it something very nasty indeed, but it is NOT cheating.

Modifié par esper, 30 janvier 2013 - 06:07 .

[WildOrchid]

Hopefully we'll have more gay options for female and male. Mass Effect failed with it.

[mopotter]

Esper, sorry if I missed that. I agree, Alistair did NOT cheat. No way, how how.

[n2nw]

esper wrote...
Cheat implies that Alistair went behind your
back and did it without your consent. He does not. He only does it if
you forces him to do it.
Alistair is not the one who invented the Archdemon soul jump thing, nor the dark ritual. He did not force your hand.
In
fact it is the completely opposite. You are forcing his hand as he
would be more than willing to take the sacrifice for you. Now you and I
can both agree that dying is stupid when there is a perfectly safe way
out.
But place the blame on Alistair for your action and demand that
you have the oppertunity to make the situation worse is wrong on so many
levels that I can't count it.

Alistair does NOT want to sleep
with Morrigan. It is humiliating for him. He is not Zevran, he places a
huge intimacy value in sex, think about how long it takes before your
warden can get him into bed. And then you demand to get an equal
opportunity to cheat (And this is cheat for you are going behind his back) on him.That's just... wrong.

Cheat implies that your lover slept with someone else when you didn't want them to do so.  I had no choice in the matter.

And my demand was in jest.

esper wrote...
I am mad because some (and this is not you it was the one I first started arguing with) is putting blame on Alistair, acting like he is cheating on them because they equal cheating with sleeping with another person no matter the circumstances, completly ignoring that Alistair did not want to sleep with Morrigan, the player wanted Alistair to sleep with Morrigan.

I can completely understand your in game moral being different than your real life morals. My warden certainly was a lot more selfish and a loit more... promoscius than I and my Hawke and lot more colder and willing to murder people. I can also appreciate that it is a situation in fantasy world that has no direct real world counterpart. But once you start to cast blame on Alistair for being forced to sleep with Morrigan I call the double standard.

If Alistair was a woman we would be talking something completely different here and not having the discussion. Fact is Alistair is relucant, if he isn't outright denying to do it, but the warden uses an almost jedi mindcontrol silver tounge to pressure him into it. The level off sexual enjoyment is ultimately irrellevant.

He basically says no or I would rather not. The warden says you must and he bends to the wardens will. In real life we call it something very nasty indeed, but it is NOT cheating.

I don't see why you're getting mad at all.  It's a difference of opinion.  Your getting upset at me won't change my mind and I'm not the least bit angry that you don't see it my way.  If it's upsettig to you, I will just agree to disagree. *shrugs*

[Blackrising]

esper wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

esper wrote...

That's different in that is with your PC. That is him a bit warringly exploring his sexuality and decide that it was worth it. He would not have done it had your PC not been there. And it still doesn't mean that losing his virginity isn't a big deal for him, or that he doesn't place intimacy value in sex. Because he does. It is simply him broading his sexual horizont by prodding off your PC.

Try thinking about it this way.

Say your lover comes up and says that only way to save both off you is to sleep with a man you explicity loathe and don't trust. Now you are perfectly willing to take the fall for both you and your love interest and die in their place, but your lover more and less guilt trips you into havin sex with this person and then, just to add insult to the wound explicity states that you are cheating and to even things out he should have the right to go and sleep with another person. Because that was the demand that was presented, not by you but by some off those who are totally ignoring that we as a PC is pressuring an uwilling person to have sex (and a child) with a person they don't want to have sex with and then have the gall to suggest that the victim in this case was the one doing their PC wrong.

It is just wrong on so many levels.

I agree that a real person would / could feel the way you describe but I didn't headcannon all that angst for Alistair. But that is the way I perceived it, it doesn't mean you have to see it the same way as I do.

To me was one of those "is just a game" moments where my RL morals and what I do in game are completely different. For instance, on Skyrim I sacrificed one of my companions to Boethia to obtain a rare piece of armor. Would I ever do anything remotely similar in RL or defend it as just ? Not on a million years. And even in game it did bother me a bit. So I see where you are coming from.

I don't think the game writers wanted to leave you with a bad taste in your mouth about pushing Alistair into Morrigan's bed. Perhaps on dA3 such scenes will be written in a way both of us can play and sleep well at night 

I am sorry to be so rude as I will be in the next line, BUT you personal level of angst for Alistaïr is completely irrellevant to why I am mad.

I am mad because some (and this is not you it was the one I first started arguing with) is putting blame on Alistair, acting like he is cheating on them because they equal cheating with sleeping with another person no matter the circumstances, completly ignoring that Alistair did not want to sleep with Morrigan, the player wanted Alistair to sleep with Morrigan.

I can completely understand your in game moral being different than your real life morals. My warden certainly was a lot more selfish and a loit more... promoscius than I and my Hawke and lot more colder and willing to murder people. I can also appreciate that it is a situation in fantasy world that has no direct real world counterpart. But once you start to cast blame on Alistair for being forced to sleep with Morrigan I call the double standard.

If Alistair was a woman we would be talking something completely different here and not having the discussion. Fact is Alistair is relucant, if he isn't outright denying to do it, but the warden uses an almost jedi mindcontrol silver tounge to pressure him into it. The level off sexual enjoyment is ultimately irrellevant.

He basically says no or I would rather not. The warden says you must and he bends to the wardens will. In real life we call it something very nasty indeed, but it is NOT cheating.

Wait, was that me? (These topics tend to get a bit confusing at times.)
To be clear here, I don't blame Alistair for anything. It's certainly not his fault he had to be the one to do the Dark Ritual. Yes, I used 'cheating' and I guess that implies a sort of blame, but it wasn't my intention. I simply meant the act of sleeping with someone that is not your current partner.
I didn't like the thought of Alistair sleeping with Morrigan. It was a rather unpleasant punch in the gut. But that doesn't make me resent either of those characters.
I'm also not asking Bioware to change their current approach. I might not have liked it, but who am I to tell them how to do their job? Hell, I'm just grateful they're making these games at all.

[esper]

Blackrising wrote...

esper wrote...

Renmiri1 wrote...

esper wrote...

That's different in that is with your PC. That is him a bit warringly exploring his sexuality and decide that it was worth it. He would not have done it had your PC not been there. And it still doesn't mean that losing his virginity isn't a big deal for him, or that he doesn't place intimacy value in sex. Because he does. It is simply him broading his sexual horizont by prodding off your PC.

Try thinking about it this way.

Say your lover comes up and says that only way to save both off you is to sleep with a man you explicity loathe and don't trust. Now you are perfectly willing to take the fall for both you and your love interest and die in their place, but your lover more and less guilt trips you into havin sex with this person and then, just to add insult to the wound explicity states that you are cheating and to even things out he should have the right to go and sleep with another person. Because that was the demand that was presented, not by you but by some off those who are totally ignoring that we as a PC is pressuring an uwilling person to have sex (and a child) with a person they don't want to have sex with and then have the gall to suggest that the victim in this case was the one doing their PC wrong.

It is just wrong on so many levels.

I agree that a real person would / could feel the way you describe but I didn't headcannon all that angst for Alistair. But that is the way I perceived it, it doesn't mean you have to see it the same way as I do.

To me was one of those "is just a game" moments where my RL morals and what I do in game are completely different. For instance, on Skyrim I sacrificed one of my companions to Boethia to obtain a rare piece of armor. Would I ever do anything remotely similar in RL or defend it as just ? Not on a million years. And even in game it did bother me a bit. So I see where you are coming from.

I don't think the game writers wanted to leave you with a bad taste in your mouth about pushing Alistair into Morrigan's bed. Perhaps on dA3 such scenes will be written in a way both of us can play and sleep well at night 

I am sorry to be so rude as I will be in the next line, BUT you personal level of angst for Alistaïr is completely irrellevant to why I am mad.

I am mad because some (and this is not you it was the one I first started arguing with) is putting blame on Alistair, acting like he is cheating on them because they equal cheating with sleeping with another person no matter the circumstances, completly ignoring that Alistair did not want to sleep with Morrigan, the player wanted Alistair to sleep with Morrigan.

I can completely understand your in game moral being different than your real life morals. My warden certainly was a lot more selfish and a loit more... promoscius than I and my Hawke and lot more colder and willing to murder people. I can also appreciate that it is a situation in fantasy world that has no direct real world counterpart. But once you start to cast blame on Alistair for being forced to sleep with Morrigan I call the double standard.

If Alistair was a woman we would be talking something completely different here and not having the discussion. Fact is Alistair is relucant, if he isn't outright denying to do it, but the warden uses an almost jedi mindcontrol silver tounge to pressure him into it. The level off sexual enjoyment is ultimately irrellevant.

He basically says no or I would rather not. The warden says you must and he bends to the wardens will. In real life we call it something very nasty indeed, but it is NOT cheating.

Wait, was that me? (These topics tend to get a bit confusing at times.)
To be clear here, I don't blame Alistair for anything. It's certainly not his fault he had to be the one to do the Dark Ritual. Yes, I used 'cheating' and I guess that implies a sort of blame, but it wasn't my intention. I simply meant the act of sleeping with someone that is not your current partner.
I didn't like the thought of Alistair sleeping with Morrigan. It was a rather unpleasant punch in the gut. But that doesn't make me resent either of those characters.
I'm also not asking Bioware to change their current approach. I might not have liked it, but who am I to tell them how to do their job? Hell, I'm just grateful they're making these games at all.

It was not only you, the one above you is much worse in this regard.

That highlighted feeling is fair and a feeling I can understand. It is not nice situation and as long as we are not pushing the blame on on the one being manioulated, I am fine with the player not being happy wiht it.

It is just that when one uses loaded words such as cheats and silly demands (in jest or not), you came across as saying something with very unfortunate implications.

And then some jumped into it with the 'he is a man', and 'he enjoyed it' justification which just made a bad situation worse.

I can truely understand you not being happy with the situation and as long as no blame is pushed around, we don't have a problem.

[nefantur]

Hi I just want to say that the writers of Bioware always seem to write very interesting well thought out romances as well as the characters that go along with them. So i have no concerns and am looking forward to seeing what step you guys take it to next. Writing is always evolving, so props to you Dragon age writing team for mixing it up and making us fangirls swoon lol

[Gamer Ftw]

Annie89 wrote...

I for one am interested to know about new characters that are available as LIs. Wasn't there a rumor about a Tevinter mage being one of them? Oh and btw, has anyone else noticed that all male romance options so far have been blond? Alistair, Zevran, Anders, even Fenris has light hair! Variety please?

Alistair isn't even close to blonde why do people keep saying that?
Neither is Anders.
Alistair and Anders both have medium brown hair.
I actaully modded Anders so it would make sense for Varric to call him blondie.
And Fenris has white hair.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 03 février 2013 - 05:01 .

[Renmiri1]

Anders is blonde, blonde I tell you!!

He isn't ginger, no, not ginger! 

Modifié par Renmiri1, 03 février 2013 - 04:50 .

[Gamer Ftw]

If you want him to be blonde so badly mod him?
I had to mod him to even look at him ugh.

Modifié par Gamer Ftw, 03 février 2013 - 06:44 .

[Yumichika]

Mods are only available on PC. Why i will never ever play any RPG game on my PS3.

[Renmiri1]

Gamer Ftw wrote...

If you want him to be blonde so badly mod him?

Denial is much easier 

[esper]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Anders is blonde, blonde I tell you!!

He isn't ginger, no, not ginger! 

Anders is a mix between dirty and strawberry blonde, which is as blonde as the engine allows for the game to make him apperently. We don't get to choose truely blond colours for ourself either.

And since Varric calls him blondie, I always assume that he was meant to be blonde.