593 réponses à ce sujet

[Tybo]

Feneckus wrote...

tyhw wrote...

Kroguard isn't really the problem, the LOLReegar is.  Without it, the kroguard is simply super tanky without very good damage output. 

Not really.

Melee Kroguard >>>>>> Melee KroSent/KroSol

Especially since the Kroguard doesn't even need melee kills to fuel his rage.

Sure, but melee sucks in this game anyway.  Saying that the Kroguard makes melee KroSent/KroSol obsolete is fair, but is also a totally different argument to the one about crutch classes.  In addition, non-melee KroSol is better than non-Reegar Kroguard.  Non-melee KroSent is still probably worse though, but imo its pretty close.  I doubt you'd hear much about Kroguards being OP without the LOLReegar

Modifié par tyhw, 18 janvier 2013 - 01:16 .

[NuclearTech76]

I didn't think this would spurn a 10 page thread.

Feneckus
Don't you think to a certain extent that a rather unskilled player can learn with a character like the GI on a higher level and eventually become a better player? TGI I might agree teaches bad habits but I think the GI gets too much hate.

The problem is people are never happy no matter how much the classes are balanced. They want something nerfed or buffed and usually it is the stuff they like or hate.

[Muhkida]

Derp88 wrote...

Ok, I'll put it this way. I'm quite an old school gamer. I'm of the opnion that many modern games are made more accessible nowadays, to appeal to the casual gamer. This, in turn, makes the game generally easier to play.

The only recent game I can think of that presents quite a good "old school" challenge is Dark Souls. That's a game I consider you have to be a good player. Not for the casual gamer, so to speak.

Being good in Dark Souls has a lot to do with how much knowledge a player has when he's trying to optimize his build properly as well as his timing/skill.  I don't consider myself a pro in DkS, but even I know how cheap Wrath of the Gods is.

[Feneckus]

tyhw wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

tyhw wrote...

Kroguard isn't really the problem, the LOLReegar is.  Without it, the kroguard is simply super tanky without very good damage output. 

Not really.

Melee Kroguard >>>>>> Melee KroSent/KroSol

Especially since the Kroguard doesn't even need melee kills to fuel his rage.

Sure, but melee sucks in this game anyway.  Saying that the kroguard makes melee krosent/krosol obsolete is fair, but is also a totally different argument to the one about crutch classes.  I doubt you'd hear much about Kroguards being OP without the LOLReegar

Well, yeah. I was talking about the lack of balance rather than his supposedly overpowered nature.

[FlowCytometry]

tyhw wrote...

Dorick wrote...

I feel the same way about the kroguard, TGI, and GI as I do about missile glitchers. 

Kroguard isn't really the problem, the LOLReegar is.  Without it, the kroguard is simply super tanky without very good damage output. 

Keep in mind thats really just vs. one (and a half if you count Cerb) factions. Reegar has a 50% armor penalty, which can be counteracted a bit by AP mods/rounds working on the gun, but its still not as strong vs. the armored factions (Reapers/Collectors).

[Derp88]

robarcool wrote...

Personally, no issues. I even don't have issues with me not getting grenades even if some QMI is at 3rd or 4th place with all grenades while I am devoid of them. I just use a thermal pack in that case. I don't even have a problem if they die too much. I simply leave the lobby when the game ends.

This. I don't really see the issue with grenade sharing. First come first serve. To think you're entitled to a grenade stash is pretty selfish. If I've ran out and no grenades have spawned at ammo spots, I'll just pop a termal clip. I always have too much of those things anyway lol

[Tybo]

FlowCytometry wrote...

tyhw wrote...

Dorick wrote...

I feel the same way about the kroguard, TGI, and GI as I do about missile glitchers. 

Kroguard isn't really the problem, the LOLReegar is.  Without it, the kroguard is simply super tanky without very good damage output. 

Keep in mind thats really just vs. one (and a half if you count Cerb) factions. Reegar has a 50% armor penalty, which can be counteracted a bit by AP mods/rounds working on the gun, but its still not as strong vs. the armored factions (Reapers/Collectors).

No, the Reegar is super OP versus everything, even though it doesn't come anywhere near its listed damage output, at least if you use an ammo consumable.  The 50% penalty doesn't affect ammo powers at all.  In addition, as a high fire rate weapon, it is perfect to take advantage of incendiary ammo stacking.

[Cyonan]

Feneckus wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

I don't actually care what your reasoning for it

Sorry, how dare I bring logical arguments and facts in a conversation ? Silly me 

There is no logical argument or facts that you can bring that doesn't make you an elitist once you admit to looking down on somebody because of their class. That is essentially the definition of elitism.

You might think it justified. You might not be bothered by being called it, but it is still elitism.

I also do enjoy the part where you ignored my bit about your "fact" about the Krogan Sentinel being wrong, though.

[Bechter]

Feneckus wrote...

tyhw wrote...

Kroguard isn't really the problem, the LOLReegar is.  Without it, the kroguard is simply super tanky without very good damage output. 

Not really.

Melee Kroguard >>>>>> Melee KroSent/KroSol

Especially since the Kroguard doesn't even need melee kills to fuel his rage.

Melee isn't a efficient build on any 3 of the characters you are comparing.The KroSent and KroSol have access 2 of the best grenades in the game.

How about we go about comparing sub optimal builds across all characters while discussing balance between characters. <_<

[SeitenHekireki]

I personally find nothing wrong with these classes, and I even enjoy using them. However, I may sometimes feel uncomfortable playing them, BECAUSE of all the criticism. If the team (whether friends or pugs) stays together for more than one game, I'll almost certainly change kits, as a way of saying "Check this out, I can definitely hold my own without playing as a TGI/Kroguard".

Modifié par SeitenHekireki, 18 janvier 2013 - 01:33 .

[Crimson Vanguard]

Feneckus wrote...

tyhw wrote...

Kroguard isn't really the problem, the LOLReegar is.  Without it, the kroguard is simply super tanky without very good damage output. 

Not really.

Melee Kroguard >>>>>> Melee KroSent/KroSol

Especially since the Kroguard doesn't even need melee kills to fuel his rage.

All Krogan should gain Rage just by killing enemies.

[Cyonan]

Bechter wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

tyhw wrote...

Kroguard isn't really the problem, the LOLReegar is.  Without it, the kroguard is simply super tanky without very good damage output. 

Not really.

Melee Kroguard >>>>>> Melee KroSent/KroSol

Especially since the Kroguard doesn't even need melee kills to fuel his rage.

Melee isn't a efficient build on any 3 of the characters you are comparing.The KroSent and KroSol have access 2 of the best grenades in the game.

How about we go about comparing sub optimal builds across all characters while discussing balance between characters. <_<

I should probably point out that people who think the Asariguard is godly because of her Lift Grenades should also think the KroSent is almost just as godly.

The damage difference between the two is ~10% on their Lift Grenades if you spec properly. It's not that big of a difference.

[DSxCallOfBooty-]

Because OP characters are detrimental to game balance.

Although, honestly, I don't find either of those kits to be imbalanced. I have a much larger concern with the weapons, and the Slayer. And fixing of the remaining bugs in the MP.

[Derp88]

Crimson Vanguard wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

tyhw wrote...

Kroguard isn't really the problem, the LOLReegar is.  Without it, the kroguard is simply super tanky without very good damage output. 

Not really.

Melee Kroguard >>>>>> Melee KroSent/KroSol

Especially since the Kroguard doesn't even need melee kills to fuel his rage.

All Krogan should gain Rage just by killing enemies.

I agree. I find its not usually worth the risk on higher difficulties for a Kro Sent/Sol. Should operate more like Bloodlust.

[Feneckus]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

Feneckus
Don't you think to a certain extent that a rather unskilled player can learn with a character like the GI on a higher level and eventually become a better player?

Absolutely. I've been there myself. At first playing on silver was a struggle. Then I learned a lot with the SI and then some more when the GI came out. Those kits made me a much better player.

But my beef with infiltrators comes from the fact that there can be no balance because of them. 

A GI/SI can use proxy mines to kill stuff, and will get 10+ kills in a single game with them while a Turian Soldier can't.

A TGI will do more damage with his overload specced to hit 2 targets + weapon damage in the passives than a Human Engineer with full single target damage, all power damage bonuses in the passives and with a Power Amp I. And he can use heavy weapons because he doesn't give a **** about cooldowns. 

The Piranha was nerfed mostly because of the GI. But a Piranha GI is almost as effective now as he was pre-nerf. However, a Piranha Human Engineer is significantly weaker. Same thing with the Krysae. It wasn't OP at all on a Human Engineer, but they had to nerf it because of Tactical Cloak. Now only infiltrators can somewhat use the Krysae.

Same thing with the Hunter Mode/Stim Packs nerfs. Barely any effect on infiltrators while their cousins got significantly weaker. If there's a recon mine nerf, it will be the same thing. 

It is frustrating to realize that you're essentially handicapping yourself when you choose a non-infiltrator. It does help newer players and I guess that's a good thing but it's frustrating to work much harder to get the same results. And yes, I do realize that skilled players can have overcome this but that's not relevant.

Cyonan wrote...

I also do enjoy the part where you ignored my bit about your "fact" about the Krogan Sentinel being wrong, though.

i ignored it because you seem to be allergic to logic.

They could buff rage, the fitness tree or their heavy melee. And as far as I know, the KroSent and Kroguard share all those. And buffing one of those will make the Kroguard even more unbalanced.

[Crimson Vanguard]

Derp88 wrote...

Crimson Vanguard wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

tyhw wrote...

Kroguard isn't really the problem, the LOLReegar is.  Without it, the kroguard is simply super tanky without very good damage output. 

Not really.

Melee Kroguard >>>>>> Melee KroSent/KroSol

Especially since the Kroguard doesn't even need melee kills to fuel his rage.

All Krogan should gain Rage just by killing enemies.

I agree. I find its not usually worth the risk on higher difficulties for a Kro Sent/Sol. Should operate more like Bloodlust.

Instead of 3 they can increase it to 5 problem solved.

[Feneckus]

Bechter wrote...

Melee isn't a efficient build on any 3 of the characters you are comparing.The KroSent and KroSol have access 2 of the best grenades in the game.

How about we go about comparing sub optimal builds across all characters while discussing balance between characters. <_<

The optimal KroSent build is using him as a slightly weaker Asari Vanguard. If I want to spam lift grenades, I'd rather do it with the Asari.

Anyway, you know it's one f*cked up game when someone asks you why you wanna headbutt stuff with a Krogan.

[FlowCytometry]

tyhw wrote...

FlowCytometry wrote...

tyhw wrote...

Dorick wrote...

I feel the same way about the kroguard, TGI, and GI as I do about missile glitchers. 

Kroguard isn't really the problem, the LOLReegar is.  Without it, the kroguard is simply super tanky without very good damage output. 

Keep in mind thats really just vs. one (and a half if you count Cerb) factions. Reegar has a 50% armor penalty, which can be counteracted a bit by AP mods/rounds working on the gun, but its still not as strong vs. the armored factions (Reapers/Collectors).

No, the Reegar is super OP versus everything, even though it doesn't come anywhere near its listed damage output, at least if you use an ammo consumable.  The 50% penalty doesn't affect ammo powers at all.  In addition, as a high fire rate weapon, it is perfect to take advantage of incendiary ammo stacking.

Well, you said it urself, its not as good. Ofc ammo powers (esp if you have a biotic primer and/or warper on the team) help mask the penalty. The warp+fire ammo glitch is super OP, and warp ammo is prob over-budget too (same w/ cyclonic mods), but that's a bit of a diff topic.

To me, the reegar should never have been allowed to get HS or AP benefits, but in turn allow the smart choke to increase its range. W/ better balanced or de-bugged ammo powers, it'd make it a bit more of a sane weapon, imo.

(OT, but I recall many months ago nearly everyone on the BSN outraging at Stardusk when he procliamed this gun OP; interesting how that view seems to be more accepted now; not a judgement, just an observation).

Cyonan wrote...

I should probably point out that people who think the Asariguard is godly because of her Lift Grenades should also think the KroSent is almost just as godly.

The damage difference between the two is ~10% on their Lift Grenades if you spec properly. It's not that big of a difference.

also, the KSe doesn't need a BC buff running beforehand; they even out pretty well effectively.

Modifié par FlowCytometry, 18 janvier 2013 - 01:51 .

[BridgeBurner]

Feneckus wrote...

Bechter wrote...

Melee isn't a efficient build on any 3 of the characters you are comparing.The KroSent and KroSol have access 2 of the best grenades in the game.

How about we go about comparing sub optimal builds across all characters while discussing balance between characters. <_<

The optimal KroSent build is using him as a slightly weaker Asari Vanguard. If I want to spam lift grenades, I'd rather do it with the Asari.

Anyway, you know it's one f*cked up game when someone asks you why you wanna headbutt stuff with a Krogan.

Silly Feneckus, how dare you even contemplate the thought that melee builds could be relevant in the meta game.

Because, f*ck knows, adding 10 seconds onto the base cooldown of the kroguard's charge and giving krogan y'know, proper immunity to staggers, and adding another 300 damage to their base melee damage and bumping their rage melee damage bonus up to 160% would be SOOOOO overpowered in comparison to the GI that can one clip anything in the game with a hurricane.

[Crimson Vanguard]

Annomander wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Bechter wrote...

Melee isn't a efficient build on any 3 of the characters you are comparing.The KroSent and KroSol have access 2 of the best grenades in the game.

How about we go about comparing sub optimal builds across all characters while discussing balance between characters. <_<

The optimal KroSent build is using him as a slightly weaker Asari Vanguard. If I want to spam lift grenades, I'd rather do it with the Asari.

Anyway, you know it's one f*cked up game when someone asks you why you wanna headbutt stuff with a Krogan.

Silly Feneckus, how dare you even contemplate the thought that melee builds could be relevant in the meta game.

Because, f*ck knows, adding 10 seconds onto the base cooldown of the kroguard's charge and giving krogan y'know, proper immunity to staggers, and adding another 300 damage to their base melee damage and bumping their rage melee damage bonus up to 160% would be SOOOOO overpowered in comparison to the GI that can one clip anything in the game with a hurricane.

Then all Krogan kits will be crutch kits.

[sliverofamoon]

EricS86 wrote...

Using one of those classes doesn't give you a default win. I've seen plenty of people using them who were terrible.

Also.... I don't care what someone else plays as long as they are having fun, and are respectful. I always try to pick a character, or class that compliments the rest of the party.

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

Annomander wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Bechter wrote...

Melee isn't a efficient build on any 3 of the characters you are comparing.The KroSent and KroSol have access 2 of the best grenades in the game.

How about we go about comparing sub optimal builds across all characters while discussing balance between characters. <_<

The optimal KroSent build is using him as a slightly weaker Asari Vanguard. If I want to spam lift grenades, I'd rather do it with the Asari.

Anyway, you know it's one f*cked up game when someone asks you why you wanna headbutt stuff with a Krogan.

Silly Feneckus, how dare you even contemplate the thought that melee builds could be relevant in the meta game.

Because, f*ck knows, adding 10 seconds onto the base cooldown of the kroguard's charge and giving krogan y'know, proper immunity to staggers, and adding another 300 damage to their base melee damage and bumping their rage melee damage bonus up to 160% would be SOOOOO overpowered in comparison to the GI that can one clip anything in the game with a hurricane.

Or you could play L4D/L4D2. Melee is actually OP in that game. 

Modifié par Jay_Hoxtatron, 18 janvier 2013 - 01:54 .

[Feneckus]

FlowCytometry wrote...

also, the KSe doesn't need a BC buff running beforehand; they even out pretty well effectively.

Not really. You're most effective when you're grenading spawns. A Vanguard will always get there faster, especially on big maps.

Annomander wrote...

Because, f*ck knows, adding 10 seconds onto the base cooldown of the kroguard's charge and giving krogan y'know, proper immunity to staggers, and adding another 300 damage to their base melee damage and bumping their rage melee damage bonus up to 160% would be SOOOOO overpowered in comparison to the GI that can one clip anything in the game with a hurricane.

Or in comparison to a GI who can melt 3 phantoms in a single heavy melee. While a Krogan has to melee them one by one, with all the BS that implies.

[Dorick]

tyhw wrote...

FlowCytometry wrote...

tyhw wrote...

Dorick wrote...

I feel the same way about the kroguard, TGI, and GI as I do about missile glitchers. 

Kroguard isn't really the problem, the LOLReegar is.  Without it, the kroguard is simply super tanky without very good damage output. 

Keep in mind thats really just vs. one (and a half if you count Cerb) factions. Reegar has a 50% armor penalty, which can be counteracted a bit by AP mods/rounds working on the gun, but its still not as strong vs. the armored factions (Reapers/Collectors).

No, the Reegar is super OP versus everything, even though it doesn't come anywhere near its listed damage output, at least if you use an ammo consumable.  The 50% penalty doesn't affect ammo powers at all.  In addition, as a high fire rate weapon, it is perfect to take advantage of incendiary ammo stacking.

exactly, that coupled with a fire explosion

[BridgeBurner]

Crimson Vanguard wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Bechter wrote...

Melee isn't a efficient build on any 3 of the characters you are comparing.The KroSent and KroSol have access 2 of the best grenades in the game.

How about we go about comparing sub optimal builds across all characters while discussing balance between characters. <_<

The optimal KroSent build is using him as a slightly weaker Asari Vanguard. If I want to spam lift grenades, I'd rather do it with the Asari.

Anyway, you know it's one f*cked up game when someone asks you why you wanna headbutt stuff with a Krogan.

Silly Feneckus, how dare you even contemplate the thought that melee builds could be relevant in the meta game.

Because, f*ck knows, adding 10 seconds onto the base cooldown of the kroguard's charge and giving krogan y'know, proper immunity to staggers, and adding another 300 damage to their base melee damage and bumping their rage melee damage bonus up to 160% would be SOOOOO overpowered in comparison to the GI that can one clip anything in the game with a hurricane.

Then all Krogan kits will be crutch kits.

Hardly. Having a damage output which is high doesn't make your kit a crutch.... or so all these infiltrators keep telling me. High damage output and high survivabiltiy =/= crutch according to Cyonan and crew.

Plus, melee will always have a higher risk element involved; you can't kill an entire spawn from behind soft cover as a melee character.

The damage I proposed would actually make it worthwhile going up and melee'ing bosses. Most of the time I melee bosses because it's an "I don't give a f*ck if you've got a sync kill, f*ck you" moment. A bit like melee'ing phantoms, its not a good idea, but you do it anyway.

I had another suggestion for the rage tree, but its pointless to even bring it up. Biower aren't interested in making anything else in the game decent, they just like their infiltrators at the top of the pile.