593 réponses à ce sujet

[Lordhaelmchen]

Annomander wrote...


I love this.

Everyone's argument: "score doesn't matter because it's a co-op game!"

Then your argument turns round to: "Your enjoyment doesn't matter in this Co-op game."

So if this is a co-op game, why should I have my enjoyment diminished by your brainlessness?

See, I can reverse the whole argument that you guys just love using.

"Hey guys it's a co-op game, but excuse me whilst I completely disregard the co-operative aspect and pay no attention to whether or not MY play style is interfering with anyone else's. But it's a co-op game remember."

Emphasis on the "co-op" if I can't see anything because of your flamer spam, then we aren't co-operating are we? You rendering me unable to see the enemies =/= co-operation.

If I stand close enough to an enemy that i get flamered I am always happy for the support, my teammate is probably flaming the sneaky husk behind me. if he flames from behind me at my target I will gladly blow it up with the overload on my op crutch ghost.

[Bechter]

Derp88 wrote...

Crimson Vanguard wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

tyhw wrote...

Kroguard isn't really the problem, the LOLReegar is.  Without it, the kroguard is simply super tanky without very good damage output. 

Not really.

Melee Kroguard >>>>>> Melee KroSent/KroSol

Especially since the Kroguard doesn't even need melee kills to fuel his rage.

All Krogan should gain Rage just by killing enemies.

I agree. I find its not usually worth the risk on higher difficulties for a Kro Sent/Sol. Should operate more like Bloodlust.

I don't know about you but a rage with a krogan regardless if the ability is activated or not

[BridgeBurner]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Bechter wrote...

Melee isn't a efficient build on any 3 of the characters you are comparing.The KroSent and KroSol have access 2 of the best grenades in the game.

How about we go about comparing sub optimal builds across all characters while discussing balance between characters. <_<

The optimal KroSent build is using him as a slightly weaker Asari Vanguard. If I want to spam lift grenades, I'd rather do it with the Asari.

Anyway, you know it's one f*cked up game when someone asks you why you wanna headbutt stuff with a Krogan.

Silly Feneckus, how dare you even contemplate the thought that melee builds could be relevant in the meta game.

Because, f*ck knows, adding 10 seconds onto the base cooldown of the kroguard's charge and giving krogan y'know, proper immunity to staggers, and adding another 300 damage to their base melee damage and bumping their rage melee damage bonus up to 160% would be SOOOOO overpowered in comparison to the GI that can one clip anything in the game with a hurricane.

Or you could play L4D/L4D2. Melee is actually OP in that game. 

You should see me with the impact hammer in unreal tournament.

Sometimes I stop and yell "OH, YOU WANNA F*CKING DANCE!?" when people manage to dodge my first attempt at splattering them.

[Crimson Vanguard]

Annomander wrote...

Crimson Vanguard wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Bechter wrote...

Melee isn't a efficient build on any 3 of the characters you are comparing.The KroSent and KroSol have access 2 of the best grenades in the game.

How about we go about comparing sub optimal builds across all characters while discussing balance between characters. <_<

The optimal KroSent build is using him as a slightly weaker Asari Vanguard. If I want to spam lift grenades, I'd rather do it with the Asari.

Anyway, you know it's one f*cked up game when someone asks you why you wanna headbutt stuff with a Krogan.

Silly Feneckus, how dare you even contemplate the thought that melee builds could be relevant in the meta game.

Because, f*ck knows, adding 10 seconds onto the base cooldown of the kroguard's charge and giving krogan y'know, proper immunity to staggers, and adding another 300 damage to their base melee damage and bumping their rage melee damage bonus up to 160% would be SOOOOO overpowered in comparison to the GI that can one clip anything in the game with a hurricane.

Then all Krogan kits will be crutch kits.

Hardly. Having a damage output which is high doesn't make your kit a crutch.... or so all these infiltrators keep telling me. High damage output and high survivabiltiy =/= crutch according to Cyonan and crew.

Plus, melee will always have a higher risk element involved; you can't kill an entire spawn from behind soft cover as a melee character.

The damage I proposed would actually make it worthwhile going up and melee'ing bosses. Most of the time I melee bosses because it's an "I don't give a f*ck if you've got a sync kill, f*ck you" moment. A bit like melee'ing phantoms, its not a good idea, but you do it anyway.

I had another suggestion for the rage tree, but its pointless to even bring it up. Biower aren't interested in making anything else in the game decent, they just like their infiltrators at the top of the pile.

I think the Krodept, Krosent and Krosol are pretty good classes, A+ for me. I hate playing as the Kroguard though. But what ****** me off is Krogan in Silver+ has to play like little ******. Hit and run instead of ram the spawn and laugh at enemy puny attempt to hurt you.

[xtorma]

Sorry bad link

Would crutch classes be a game design choice by developers?

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par xtorma, 18 janvier 2013 - 02:06 .

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

Annomander wrote...

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Bechter wrote...

Melee isn't a efficient build on any 3 of the characters you are comparing.The KroSent and KroSol have access 2 of the best grenades in the game.

How about we go about comparing sub optimal builds across all characters while discussing balance between characters. <_<

The optimal KroSent build is using him as a slightly weaker Asari Vanguard. If I want to spam lift grenades, I'd rather do it with the Asari.

Anyway, you know it's one f*cked up game when someone asks you why you wanna headbutt stuff with a Krogan.

Silly Feneckus, how dare you even contemplate the thought that melee builds could be relevant in the meta game.

Because, f*ck knows, adding 10 seconds onto the base cooldown of the kroguard's charge and giving krogan y'know, proper immunity to staggers, and adding another 300 damage to their base melee damage and bumping their rage melee damage bonus up to 160% would be SOOOOO overpowered in comparison to the GI that can one clip anything in the game with a hurricane.

Or you could play L4D/L4D2. Melee is actually OP in that game. 

You should see me with the impact hammer in unreal tournament.

Sometimes I stop and yell "OH, YOU WANNA F*CKING DANCE!?" when people manage to dodge my first attempt at splattering them.

Lol. I preferred the 2ndary fire for ninjaing powerups 

Modifié par Jay_Hoxtatron, 18 janvier 2013 - 02:04 .

[Bechter]

xtorma wrote...

Sorry bad link

Would crutch classes be a game design choice by developers?

I think by law all games have to handicap accessible.

[BridgeBurner]

Crimson Vanguard wrote...
I think the Krodept, Krosent and Krosol are pretty good classes, A+ for me. I hate playing as the Kroguard though. But what ****** me off is Krogan in Silver+ has to play like little ******. Hit and run instead of ram the spawn and laugh at enemy puny attempt to hurt you.

Thats the problem. The kroguard being more powerful means the rest of the krogan can't have nice things. Again,we come down to balance. I have to sacrifice a huge chunk of health and shields to be even able to 1hk marauders / centurions.... but that I need that survivability that I just sacrficed to be able to withstand the damage I am inevitably going to take.

The only way krogan become very powerful is through grenade spamming. I can clear a swathe of enemies by pressing my grenade button twice. Can I do the same with melee? No, it takes longer and it has more risk involved for lower reward.

If you go melee, you have to be on your own, all the time; meaning a lot of your game is tied purely on luck; where do the enemies spawn, which enemies spawned where... has your heavy melee randomly decided not to track properly? Has the enemy randomly decided to become temporarily immune to staggers? Has the phantom decided that even though it hasn't began a melee attack it's going to sync kill you regardless?

[Cyonan]

Feneckus wrote...
i ignored it because you seem to be allergic to logic.

They could buff rage, the fitness tree or their heavy melee. And as far as I know, the KroSent and Kroguard share all those. And buffing one of those will make the Kroguard even more unbalanced.

Actually, there is references to a "KroVanMeleePassive" in the Resurgence game files. This is how they label their fitness trees, and it is not named for the specific character unless it is planned on being unique to them.

This is why the Krogan Vanguard rage was bugged while the Sentinel and Soldiers was not.

What was that you were saying about logic?

Modifié par Cyonan, 18 janvier 2013 - 02:07 .

[aliceshell]

Feneckus wrote...
A GI/SI can use proxy mines to kill stuff, and will get 10+ kills in a single game with them while a Turian Soldier can't.

True for very skilled players, but in my 300+ hours PUG experience, I saw more good TS than good SI. Average players would probably invest more points on ED and fitness.
And GI? never saw a very-well-played GI, only some decent ones(which means that they didnt die too many times), and rarely saw anyone use it these days. I never get the "GI must be nerfed" theory, who cares??

[BridgeBurner]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

Lol. I preferred the 2ndary fire for ninjaing powerups 

Not very useful as there's only one map in UT3 that has an invincibility power up....  you'd be better of killing them first, then picking it up off the ground if its invisibility, berserk or damage amp. I've yet to come across a single player-made map that has an invincibility too.

Though the 2ndary fire does do a whole chunk of damage to vehichles... if you ever desired to run up to a darkwalker and attempt to hammer it that is...

But the hammer jumps, the hammer jumps. SO. MUCH. AIR.

Modifié par Annomander, 18 janvier 2013 - 02:12 .

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

Annomander wrote...

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

Lol. I preferred the 2ndary fire for ninjaing powerups 

Not very useful as there's only one map in UT3 that has an invincibility power up....  you'd be better of killing them first, then picking it up off the ground.

Though the 2ndary fire does do a whole chunk of damage to vehichles... if you ever desired to run up to a darkwalker and attempt to hammer it that is...

But the hammer jumps, the hammer jumps. SO. MUCH. AIR.

Yeah it's useful against tanks, but against aircraft lolno. And yeah, loltrickjumping with hammer jumps. On low grav map it's even more lulzy.

[Crimson Vanguard]

Annomander wrote...

Crimson Vanguard wrote...
I think the Krodept, Krosent and Krosol are pretty good classes, A+ for me. I hate playing as the Kroguard though. But what ****** me off is Krogan in Silver+ has to play like little ******. Hit and run instead of ram the spawn and laugh at enemy puny attempt to hurt you.

Thats the problem. The kroguard being more powerful means the rest of the krogan can't have nice things. Again,we come down to balance. I have to sacrifice a huge chunk of health and shields to be even able to 1hk marauders / centurions.... but that I need that survivability that I just sacrficed to be able to withstand the damage I am inevitably going to take.

The only way krogan become very powerful is through grenade spamming. I can clear a swathe of enemies by pressing my grenade button twice. Can I do the same with melee? No, it takes longer and it has more risk involved for lower reward.

If you go melee, you have to be on your own, all the time; meaning a lot of your game is tied purely on luck; where do the enemies spawn, which enemies spawned where... has your heavy melee randomly decided not to track properly? Has the enemy randomly decided to become temporarily immune to staggers? Has the phantom decided that even though it hasn't began a melee attack it's going to sync kill you regardless?

According to lore best weapon for Krogan is Shotgun. In this game best weapon for non-Kroguard melee Krogan is Acolyte, SURPRISE! Hold down the charge button, run toward that Phantom, release the button, Phantom Barrier Stripped + Stun -> Slap her. Or the Reetard. Seriously, I would love to use Claymore on Krogsent and beat the crap out of an Atlas with that, but it turns out he beats the crap out of me.

[HolyAvenger]

Am I the only one who thinks its OK that melee builds shouldn't be that viable in a scifi shooter?






Probably.

Modifié par HolyAvenger, 18 janvier 2013 - 02:21 .

[Cyonan]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Am I the only one who thinks its OK that melee builds shouldn't be that viable in a scifi shooter?






Probably.

Tell that to the Jedi.

[HolyAvenger]

Cyonan wrote...

HolyAvenger wrote...

Am I the only one who thinks its OK that melee builds shouldn't be that viable in a scifi shooter?






Probably.

Tell that to the Jedi.

 

Midichlorians:sick:

[Zero132132]

xtorma wrote...

Sorry bad link

Would crutch classes be a game design choice by developers?

www.youtube.com/watch

They would if they were effective with low skill but there were high skill strategies that paid of better if you could pull them off. Instead, a GI will always have the greatest damage output. A TGI will always have great survivability. The Harrier will always be awesome. This game doesn't have anything that's easy to use but ultimately worse than some other strategy. There are just crutch classes that are unambiguously easier AND more effective than others.

[Kenadian]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Am I the only one who thinks its OK that melee builds shouldn't be that viable in a scifi shooter?






Probably.

You're a fool. I should eat you.

[Feneckus]

Cyonan wrote...

Feneckus wrote...
i ignored it because you seem to be allergic to logic.

They could buff rage, the fitness tree or their heavy melee. And as far as I know, the KroSent and Kroguard share all those. And buffing one of those will make the Kroguard even more unbalanced.

Actually, there is references to a "KroVanMeleePassive" in the Resurgence game files. This is how they label their fitness trees, and it is not named for the specific character unless it is planned on being unique to them.

This is why the Krogan Vanguard rage was bugged while the Sentinel and Soldiers was not.

What was that you were saying about logic?

Oh ok, it's just Biower being stupid then. I should have known.

HolyAvenger wrote...

Am I the only one who thinks its OK that melee builds shouldn't be that viable in a scifi shooter?

Krogans literaly weigh a ton. They should be good at meleeing. Not only that, they should be better at it than freaking infiltrators. Biower's incompetence again.

Modifié par Feneckus, 18 janvier 2013 - 02:29 .

[Cyonan]

Zero132132 wrote...
They would if they were effective with low skill but there were high skill strategies that paid of better if you could pull them off. Instead, a GI will always have the greatest damage output. A TGI will always have great survivability. The Harrier will always be awesome. This game doesn't have anything that's easy to use but ultimately worse than some other strategy. There are just crutch classes that are unambiguously easier AND more effective than others.

I don't really see how the GI is a crutch.

If an unskilled player tries to use him on a higher difficulty they just end up dying over and over.

[BridgeBurner]

Feneckus wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Feneckus wrote...
i ignored it because you seem to be allergic to logic.

They could buff rage, the fitness tree or their heavy melee. And as far as I know, the KroSent and Kroguard share all those. And buffing one of those will make the Kroguard even more unbalanced.

Actually, there is references to a "KroVanMeleePassive" in the Resurgence game files. This is how they label their fitness trees, and it is not named for the specific character unless it is planned on being unique to them.

This is why the Krogan Vanguard rage was bugged while the Sentinel and Soldiers was not.

What was that you were saying about logic?

Oh ok, it's just Biower being retards then. I should have known.

HolyAvenger wrote...

Am I the only one who thinks its OK that melee builds shouldn't be that viable in a scifi shooter?

Krogans literaly weigh a ton. They should be good at meleeing. Not only that, they should be better at it than freaking infiltrators. Biower being retarded again.

Using the "Sci-Fi" argument suggests taking lore into account.

And what do the krogan do in the lore? Headbutt stuff. Smash it. MMMMRRRAAAAAHHH it. Break it into pieces with their bare hands.

Lore says this game is a Sci-fi game. Lore also says krogan should be able to break stuff with their bare hands / headbutt it to death. If we krogan defeated hordes of rachni and rachni queens with headbutts and shotguns in the lore, there is no reason why just because this is sci-fi that melee cannot or should not be viable.

[lightswitch]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Am I the only one who thinks its OK that melee builds shouldn't be that viable in a scifi shooter?






Probably.

*raises hand*

[Zero132132]

Cyonan wrote...

Zero132132 wrote...

They would if they were effective with low skill but there were high skill strategies that paid of better if you could pull them off. Instead, a GI will always have the greatest damage output. A TGI will always have great survivability. The Harrier will always be awesome. This game doesn't have anything that's easy to use but ultimately worse than some other strategy. There are just crutch classes that are unambiguously easier AND more effective than others.

I don't really see how the GI is a crutch.

If an unskilled player tries to use him on a higher difficulty they just end up dying over and over.

That's true. And I started thinking about it more and I think power-focussed classes are actually the crutch classes for noobs, but high weapon damage starts to overshadow them when you start getting good weapons. It definitely takes a lot more effort to aim than it does to tap a button and unleash a power that aims itself.

[Blarg]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Am I the only one who thinks its OK that melee builds shouldn't be that viable in a scifi shooter?






Probably.

It kinda makes sense for both sides. On one hand, there's monomolecular swords, holographic blades, and explosions that would keep a modern soldier from getting anywhere near melee range. On the other hand, you've got kinetic barriers and races like Krogan that allow people to close in.

Personally, I think for ME4 we should switch around melee combat. Ever read Dune? The concept of kinetic barriers there was that slow melees would go through shields because they weren't fast enough to trigger the field. Still stops everything else though, and heavy melees are still fast enough to be affected.

Sorry for the wall of text, but it's an idea.

[T41rdEye]

People need to chill out. Smoke a fatty, play a Volus and laugh with your friends. Rez your teammate before that Atlas can stomp him. OSK a Phantom from across the map with a Javelin. Pull off biotic/tech combos with your buddies.

That's what this game is about. It's about killing Reapers with friends and having fun in the process. Who cares about score? I don't even look at mine till the end screen. People need to realize this is a game, co-op at that. As long as you're not diminishing someone else's enjoyment by cheating or griefing.

And no, Annanomaonaonomander, the classes aren't the problem. Its the people who play them. No matter what, there's going to be a top-tier level of characters. And some people just can't stop themselves from playing the best setups, or they can't hack gold/plat without them. So what? If your Jimmies are so rustled play solo or with friends (if you have any, with that disposition).