593 réponses à ce sujet

[Derp88]

Muhkida wrote...

Derp88 wrote...

Ok, I'll put it this way. I'm quite an old school gamer. I'm of the opnion that many modern games are made more accessible nowadays, to appeal to the casual gamer. This, in turn, makes the game generally easier to play.

The only recent game I can think of that presents quite a good "old school" challenge is Dark Souls. That's a game I consider you have to be a good player. Not for the casual gamer, so to speak.

Being good in Dark Souls has a lot to do with how much knowledge a player has when he's trying to optimize his build properly as well as his timing/skill.  I don't consider myself a pro in DkS, but even I know how cheap Wrath of the Gods is.

In terms of PvP, I'd agree with that. I'm just talking about the game generally, such as AI, base difficulty etc...

Modifié par Derp88, 18 janvier 2013 - 10:25 .

[Derp88]

Oops double post

Modifié par Derp88, 18 janvier 2013 - 10:24 .

[COLZ7R]

Question then. Is the claymore a crutch wep for pc players then as its a lot easier to turn it into a semi auto death stick with button mapping?

[-Sxx-]

Annomander wrote...

Bechter wrote...

Send me your personal code of conduct for ME3 and I'll start a forward to all my friends and then they will send it to their friends so eventually the entire community will play by your made up set of rules. Sounds reasonable to me.

After all every teammate should care about how their play affects your enjoyment and nothing more.

I love this.

Everyone's argument: "score doesn't matter because it's a co-op game!"

Then your argument turns round to: "Your enjoyment doesn't matter in this Co-op game."

So if this is a co-op game, why should I have my enjoyment diminished by your brainlessness?

See, I can reverse the whole argument that you guys just love using.

"Hey guys it's a co-op game, but excuse me whilst I completely disregard the co-operative aspect and pay no attention to whether or not MY play style is interfering with anyone else's. But it's a co-op game remember."

Emphasis on the "co-op" if I can't see anything because of your flamer spam, then we aren't co-operating are we? You rendering me unable to see the enemies =/= co-operation.

Then to an extent by this notion, to bring it around to KS'ing, if you're 'kill stealing' most of the kills (even with a non-'crutch' class) you aren't cooperating that well either, because you're taking a partial element of enjoyment out of the game for others. To turn it around again, one who might be flaming enemies isn't always doing it because of selfish reasons, but could thinking 'I'm wearing the enemies down for my teammates' and enjoys doing so for that reason.

Either way it's a shame elitist notions have flowed into this MP now. It's not the worst but it's not a rarity either. 

[ThelLastTruePatriot]

mrs_anomaly wrote...

Personally I don't really care what characters are most often played because it's "OP". I've noticed it's the player not the class largely. Even the Harrier for example- only *I* can make it work like a damn water gun vs the monster it's supposed to be. I for some reason just cannot use my Harrier IV and score really well. :|
Everyone has crutch characters whether they realize it or not- it may not be the standard kit that everyone kvetches about endlessly on BSN but there is probably a kit or two that most people feel most comfortable using. I know for myself it is the Human Adept (the vanilla) I can use her w/out even thinking and do just fine on Plat usually. Any other kit? Well then that isn't my forte and I better be playing at my utmost best to keep up with the rest of my team.
This is my own failing and I'm trying to expand my horizons kit wise lately and actually attempt some of those "OP crutch classes" everyone complains about because I have never been able to weild them with the same ability as my HA or SI.

Basically- people love to complain and certain people are just elitists IMO.

People should be able to play what they want.

 I agree with this viewpoint. There are classes I play where I feel naturally better using. Mostly my realm are infiltrators, I just like them as I enjoy being able to sneak about the battlefield doing what I like to do. I can of course play most other classes but i don't find them as enjoyable. These various characters exist to accomodate all playstyles, what's the point if we are stuck with a handful of kits or weapons that are deemed "acceptable" by some group of peons? I like the turian ghost, I like the harrier, though I don't always use it. I especially like the Reegar for it's shield stripping as much as some like the acolyte, which I don't. I'm sure it's a great gun but I'm not afraid to admit it can't even zap bugs in my hands.

[Derp88]

COLZ7R wrote...

Question then. Is the claymore a crutch wep for pc players then as its a lot easier to turn it into a semi auto death stick with button mapping?

In the sense you're taking away its major drawback, then yes. Double standards I suppose.

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

I need mah crutch.

Modifié par Jay_Hoxtatron, 18 janvier 2013 - 11:00 .

[Oggy666]

Yeah, also everyone who dares to equip Cyclonic IV is less skilled...

[CNevarezN]

I never used the GI but had a friend of mine who rocked em like a pro with a scorpion before said class became famous as all hell. Nevertheless, I never took the time to try the GI out and honoestly don't give a damn if other people use the class. The Kroguard on the other hand is different. I've used em, against all enemies. Against the Geth, he's Brock Samson. Against other enemies he still can be Brock Samson, but other people always end up screwed because of the SK's.

If you're good with a particular character or weapon, use em. **** what other people have to say about em. Tell em to go **** themselves.

[Negative_Creep]

megabeast37215 wrote...
It's pretty stupid IMO.... it's stupid along the same lines as Gentleman's Combat was stupid hundreds of years ago (guys in bright uniforms standing right in front of each other all lined up shooting/reloading muskets).

Completely off-topic, but combat being more "gentlemanly" in the past is really just a fabrication. Things that strike us modern people as such were actually sound military strategies at the time.

Case in point, arranging your infantry in a line gave you maximum use of the very limited firepower at your disposal. Even a very skilled musketman could only take a few shots per minute, and needed to be fairly close to the enemy for the bullet to have any stopping power, so how many of your men had a clear shot at the enemy at any given moment could make a huge difference. Likewise, when the battle would inevitably deteriorate into melee, the bright uniforms served as an IFF, helping one tell apart enemies and allies. This was particularly important for commanding officers, who had to rely on visuals to map the development of the battle.

The advent of the machine gun (and, although they would later be banned, battle gasses) made both of these tactics grossly obsolete, as was aptly proven by WWI. The infamous Western Front was a meatgrinder over which commanders still clinging to old tactics would march their men in orderly lines straight to their deaths. All development wasn't for the worse, though; Ever more deadlier weapons technology ushered the need for international agreements on the conduct of war, which especially for the civilians was a huge improvement. In the olden days, it was common for the army victorious on the field of battle to reap the spoils of war on the enemy territory, razing cities to the ground, raping and murdering with little oversight or consequence.

EDIT: Fixed brainfart.

Modifié par Negative_Creep, 18 janvier 2013 - 11:24 .

[OD-Dragon]

I always find it strange that people complain about crutch classes, and how they ruin their gaming experience, and yet seem to be perfectly fine with the way other classes work, like grenade classes for example. If infiltrators aren't fine why is it fine for a class tree like the vanguards who have near invulnerability?(excluding sync-kills, but then, every class in this game can be sync killed, it isn't just a vanguard specific occurance.)

Also, if the kroguard is a crutch class why am I not seeing the batarian vanguard up on the list? Specced for melee he operates just like the kroguard does, his heavy melee makes him invulnerable after a charge even.

I thought crutch classes were the classes you pick up, faceroll the keyboard and breeze through difficulties no problem. Also, wasn't the pirahna nerfed specifically because it was too good on SOLDIER classes like the destroyer, since he had clip increase along with rate of fire and accuracy bonuses? Not to mention how much power the Tsol had with its 8 clip.

People also tend to forget that fun is not allowed in video games.

[vonSlash]

mrs_anomaly wrote...

No its because most of our AR's suck compared to the other weapons we have. The Harrier is literally the only AR anyone bothers talking about- but heh- call me super stupid I'll take my Avenger X over it  

The Mattock and Revenant are also quite good, even compared to non-ARs, and they never get mentioned.

[FlowCytometry]

COLZ7R wrote...

Question then. Is the claymore a crutch wep for pc players then as its a lot easier to turn it into a semi auto death stick with button mapping?

oh BSN, you never stop giving gifts

[GallowsPole]

OD-Dragon wrote...

I always find it strange that people complain about crutch classes, and how they ruin their gaming experience, and yet seem to be perfectly fine with the way other classes work, like grenade classes for example. If infiltrators aren't fine why is it fine for a class tree like the vanguards who have near invulnerability?(excluding sync-kills, but then, every class in this game can be sync killed, it isn't just a vanguard specific occurance.)

Also, if the kroguard is a crutch class why am I not seeing the batarian vanguard up on the list? Specced for melee he operates just like the kroguard does, his heavy melee makes him invulnerable after a charge even.

I thought crutch classes were the classes you pick up, faceroll the keyboard and breeze through difficulties no problem. Also, wasn't the pirahna nerfed specifically because it was too good on SOLDIER classes like the destroyer, since he had clip increase along with rate of fire and accuracy bonuses? Not to mention how much power the Tsol had with its 8 clip.

People also tend to forget that fun is not allowed in video games.

Everyone defines fun differently. So when peeps say Im playing 'honorably' or my comments are geared towards more 'honorable' play, they are just ignorant. My way of having fun is playing the game without exploiting its weaknesses or OPness, such as a GI. You can absolutely play a GI without taking advantage of every techinique known to man to try and top the board with. Like wall hacking, for example (might be a bad example given the fact that you can see through walls, but still). Other ignorant people will say Im gimping myself. Wrong again. How can one gimp himself, when you are playing the game how it was originally designed san glitches, bugs, hacks or whatever you want to cal them) You arent. You are playing, pure and simple, how the game is out of the box.

If you read through my comments, especially on reload cancelling, I dont chastise people for using it, I just call the technique cheap. Just like spawn nuking, just like grenade spam, just like Krogan and Reegars, Warp and incendiary, etc etc. I really could care less if you use them, but dont think for a moment you're some awesome gamer because you do. If you were so awesome, you can play the game like I do, on any difficulty, without them. (Note: IM not telling anyone to play like I do nor am I calling myself awesome)

Modifié par GallowsPole, 18 janvier 2013 - 01:35 .

[FlowCytometry]

If you use a 'crutch' to acclimate to a new setting or map or weapon or w/e, hey its an efficient way to learn the ropes w/o being too punishing. Can't blame ya, humans luv the path of least resistance, have fun, good for you, etc.

If I'm in a gold lobby w/ a KV that keeps getting executed every other wave cause they only learned to play gold vs. geth and haven't properly learned how to handle SK-capable enemies, then I start care about over-reliance on crutches. If they decide to swap from the TGI to the GI everyone seems to be saying is the best kit out there they'll be dying 5 times every wave and then I start caring about their over-reliance on a crutch kit. If they start to use the reegar on any other kit and find they just keep dying cause lord knows ur AA on gold/plat may not like being in the enemy's face, then I start caring about their over-reliance on a crutch.

Easier classes are fine, but since 'crutches' are rather narrowly defined (specific loadouts or factions) they could hamper that player and their teammates rather than help every single time they step out of that narrow zone.

Why is it a problem? Simple. Cause most players won't keep it to private lobbies and have it only affect themselves or friends- instead affecting other players they don't know and who don;t necc want to stay in those narrow zones. It affects public matches and their diversity, and BW has shown that they want a diverse game and will 'balance' based on use, among many other factors. Its not just some of the players that don't want to see TGIs and KVs and harriers and reegars everywhere (well maybe that guy how designed the harrier does, but w/e), it also doesn't reflect well on BW's game either.

It is elitist to criticize others for taking an easier route when learning the ropes; it isn't elitist to criticize the adult still using training wheels after all these years, though.


In all fairness, TGI+harrier is an abomination to balance since he has all the benefits being one of the highest ranged dps'ers w/o any real major drawback- notably of not being durable (the opposite, he can be one of the tankiest in the game and w/o ever needing to get in CQC range or even care about 'hiding' in cloak) or not very mobile (jet packs, nuff said).

Imo, stims were a bad idea for the kit. If they replaced them w/ the sentry turret and gave the Sabotuer ED instead of the turret, we'd have a more sensible, still high-dps TGI that could combo from the turret if specced right (has the 'flavor' of being the only infil w/ a minion too), an all around better Sabo w/ better power synergy, and the freedom to buff stims for the Havoc w/o affecting anyone else.
But oh well. biower- I mean BW can't get everything right (though I hope they've learned a bunch from this first MP outting).

Modifié par FlowCytometry, 18 janvier 2013 - 01:23 .

[Airealite]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Elitists get pissy if you tie or overtake their score.

Apart from that depends on how much of a noob you really are.

[billy the squid]

vonSlash wrote...

mrs_anomaly wrote...

No its because most of our AR's suck compared to the other weapons we have. The Harrier is literally the only AR anyone bothers talking about- but heh- call me super stupid I'll take my Avenger X over it  

The Mattock and Revenant are also quite good, even compared to non-ARs, and they never get mentioned.

Lol wut? Revenant really needs the recoil and accuracy seen to. It's not that good on anything outside a Turian, and is still heavier than most ARs. The Mattock, you're right, is a great AR. But you'll break your finger after a few gold games. 

Harrier seems best, mainly through ease of use. But, the Saber and PPR are easily it's equal, they are a little more difficult to use that's all, not much mind you. With the Typhoon close behind.

[vonSlash]

I ruin all the crutch characters by using really strange builds on them, so the decrease in difficulty compared to a regular class is nil...or it would be, if I used normal builds on the regular classes, anyways.

[longgamma]

Kroguard is just a tank, he cant kill very quickly so I really dont like him. The krogan soldier has higher overall dps than the kroguard.

The Tsent is better than the TGI imo as he is versatile and gels very well with biotics and tech classes.

If both these characters help some to be more competive, then that is good by me.

[Feneckus]

stormrider1012 wrote...

I agree with the majority of your points but telling other players how they should play just doesn't seem right.

I don't do that. I don't even want a Tactical Cloak nerf.

[BridgeBurner]

Feneckus wrote...

stormrider1012 wrote...

I agree with the majority of your points but telling other players how they should play just doesn't seem right.

I don't do that. I don't even want a Tactical Cloak nerf.

Neither, I couldn't care less about the damage boost, but the mechanics should be altered so its not so.... perfect at everything, as no other power is.

Volus engineer needs to spec for power damage and have a power amp IV to make his proxy mine do anything close to the damage that a SI or a GI can get out of it.

Modifié par Annomander, 18 janvier 2013 - 04:46 .

[Herbasaurusrex]

The only problem with crutch characters is that once people are accustomed to them they eventually get bored and then complain about how all the other characters/guns/powers "suck". Then we get annoying threads…

[HolyAvenger]

Nothing major is going to happen to TC or infiltrators for ME3 imo, they'd have to rewrite the code.

Better of just saying they should have separate power trees for every kit in ME4 and leaving it at that.

[Bechter]

Feneckus wrote...

stormrider1012 wrote...

I agree with the majority of your points but telling other players how they should play just doesn't seem right.

I don't do that. I don't even want a Tactical Cloak nerf.

So how would you go about balancing the overpowered tactical cloack without a nerf?

[Rhayak]

Heh, just charge and reegar a lot and you won't be able to hear them pseudo-elites ****in.

Trust me, i tested it many times XD