593 réponses à ce sujet

[sandboxgod]

This whole 'crutch' thing is utter nonsense. I see PUG players take a good class like TGI and fail horribly. I've lost count of the sniper TGIs I've counted. Pistol TGIs. Shotgun TGIs.... Kroguards with sniper + shotgun.

If only BSN could be taken serously! If only every TGI would use a Harrier! If only every Kroguard woiuld use a Reager! I'd never have to carry. Rather I'd always enjopy easy credits and I'd never have to burn my gels, etc

You just gotta learn to ignore the average BSN post that whines about Crutch, nerf this & that, etc and look for that rare good post that actually teaches ya something new (that new threrad by RedJohn just taught me a new trick for example bout the Ops packs)

[Feneckus]

Bechter wrote...

His original comparison was that Tac Scan on the Infl is objectively better than the engineer which is not the case they share the same skill tree.

It is.

Tac Scan allows you to do more extra damage on the QMI.

It's basically the same as TGI's overload vs Human Engineer's overload.

Wait a minute, why I am arguing ? Forget it, I'm just a butthurt elitist.

[BridgeBurner]

Bechter wrote...

I like how its hairsplitting when he leaves out the entire picture. You two compare apples to oranges when it suits your views. I wasn't tyring to debate the MQI vs MQE but a statement TAC Scan is better on Inf vs the engineer without any of the other supporting evidence is false. That was my only issue with that statement and I could go back and qoute several more thoughout this thread from both of you.

However neither you or him can quote some of the claims you have made about my post and when called on it just state that it was directed at me even though i was quoted in the post.

He didn't leave out the "entire picture" comparing the same ability used by an infiltrator and a non-infiltrator is comparing a cooking apple to a golden delicious.

The cooking apple (QME) may be an apple just like the other, but the golden delicious is the one you want to take a bite out of isn't it?

Feneckus SAID that tac scan is better on an infiltrator than it is on the engineer because he assumed that you would understand WHY that is the case. Apparently he was wrong to assume that, and that you would take his statement at literal face value, which was not his intention.

Modifié par Annomander, 18 janvier 2013 - 06:51 .

[lightswitch]

Lord_Sirian wrote...

TC is garbage when it comes to cloaking. 

Cloak with nothing having LoS on you. --> wait a couple of seconds --> walk into the next room --> a Collector Captain sees you from across the map and goes TROLOLOLOLOLO and one bursts you with perfect accuracy.

Good job TC.

I wonder if lag plays a hand in the overall effectiveness of cloak. I don't have a lot of these kinds of problems.

Modifié par lightswitch, 18 janvier 2013 - 06:58 .

[Bechter]

Feneckus wrote...

Bechter wrote...

His original comparison was that Tac Scan on the Infl is objectively better than the engineer which is not the case they share the same skill tree.

It is.

Tac Scan allows you to do more extra damage on the QMI.

It's basically the same as TGI's overload vs Human Engineer's overload.

Wait a minute, why I am arguing ? Forget it, I'm just a butthurt elitist.

So are you saying that tac scan benefits from cloak damage in the same way as powers like arc grenades, proxy mine, and overload or that the inf can benefit from tac scan because its capable of higher damage output from cloaked shots and cloaked grenades?

I would just like to be clear on what you are saying. Again I have never called you a butthurt elitist. I thought we were getting more civil and cheeky

[unclemonster]

I understand almost all of the games mechanics.
Of course, I know powers, weapons, and melees bonuses are all increased from cloak (except Huntress sans weapons)
I did not know (nor have I ever seen posted) that actual buffs are increased as well from cloak (like tac scan)? So, you are telling me that power buffs are actually increased as well when cast from cloak?

[BridgeBurner]

Bechter wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Bechter wrote...

His original comparison was that Tac Scan on the Infl is objectively better than the engineer which is not the case they share the same skill tree.

It is.

Tac Scan allows you to do more extra damage on the QMI.

It's basically the same as TGI's overload vs Human Engineer's overload.

Wait a minute, why I am arguing ? Forget it, I'm just a butthurt elitist.

So are you saying that tac scan benefits from cloak damage in the same way as powers like arc grenades, proxy mine, and overload or that the inf can benefit from tac scan because its capable of higher damage output from cloaked shots and cloaked grenades?

I would just like to be clear on what you are saying. Again I have never called you a butthurt elitist. I thought we were getting more civil and cheeky

Tacitical scan is a multiplicative debuff.

Damage is calculated something like this:

(base damage + sum of total additive bonuses: this includes tactical cloak if you have it) x (total sum of multiplicative bonuses)

(damage + tactical cloak boost) multiplied by tac scan debuff is significantly more than...
(damage) multiplied by tac scan debuff

The example being...

if arc grenade hits for 1000 damage and tac scan gives +20% damage then tac scan gives you 200 extra damage on your arc grenade.

if arc grenade hits for 1000 damage, cloak gives you 800 extra, then tac scan increases this damage again by 20% (360 extra damage in this case), the same debuff (due to cloak) gives more damage as it is a multiplicative bonus not an additive one.

360 damage for a 1000 damage arc grenade thrown from cloak on a tac scanned target from the QMI

200 damage for a 1000 damage arc grenade thrown on a tac scanned target by QME

Works the same way for weapons.

Modifié par Annomander, 18 janvier 2013 - 07:17 .

[lightswitch]

So if a QME or QMS scans a target and a QFI throws a grenade at it, it does the same amount of damage as if the QFI had done the scanning.

So Tac Scan isn't really better on an infiltrator per se, it's just his other powers take better advantage of it.

Modifié par lightswitch, 18 janvier 2013 - 07:20 .

[unclemonster]

Annomander wrote...

Bechter wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Bechter wrote...

His original comparison was that Tac Scan on the Infl is objectively better than the engineer which is not the case they share the same skill tree.

It is.

Tac Scan allows you to do more extra damage on the QMI.

It's basically the same as TGI's overload vs Human Engineer's overload.

Wait a minute, why I am arguing ? Forget it, I'm just a butthurt elitist.

So are you saying that tac scan benefits from cloak damage in the same way as powers like arc grenades, proxy mine, and overload or that the inf can benefit from tac scan because its capable of higher damage output from cloaked shots and cloaked grenades?

I would just like to be clear on what you are saying. Again I have never called you a butthurt elitist. I thought we were getting more civil and cheeky

Tacitical scan is a multiplicative debuff.

Damage is calculated something like this:

(base damage + sum of total additive bonuses: this includes tactical cloak if you have it) x (total sum of multiplicative bonuses)

(damage + tactical cloak boost) multiplied by tac scan debuff is significantly more than...
(damage) multiplied by tac scan debuff

The example being...

if arc grenade hits for 1000 damage and tac scan gives +20% damage then tac scan gives you 200 extra damage on your arc grenade.

if arc grenade hits for 1000 damage, cloak gives you 800 extra, then tac scan increases this damage again by 20% (360 extra damage in this case), the same debuff (due to cloak) gives more damage as it is a multiplicative bonus not an additive one.

360 damage for a 1000 damage arc grenade thrown from cloak on a tac scanned target from the QMI

200 damage for a 1000 damage arc grenade thrown on a tac scanned target by QME

Works the same way for weapons.

Thank you for the explanation.
It is as I thought originally (pre-confusion).
Tac scan is better if cast pre cloak as it will break cloak and adds 3-second cooldown
buff is NOT increased,
so tac scan itself is the exact same QMI vs QME
it is cloaking after the tac scan casting that adds the damage NOT tac scan itself

Modifié par unclemonster, 18 janvier 2013 - 07:33 .

[BridgeBurner]

unclemonster wrote...

Thank you for the explanation.
It is as I thought originally (pre-confusion).
Tac scan is better if cast pre cloak as it will break cloak and adds 3-second cooldown
buff is NOT increased,
so tac scan itself is the exact same QMI vs QME
it is cloaking after the tac scan casting that adds the damage NOT tac scan itself

The end result is the same. The infiltrator still gets more out of the debuff than the soldier or the engineer do, irrespective of how or where this improvement derives from.

[Feneckus]

lightswitch wrote...

So Tac Scan isn't really better on an infiltrator per se, it's just his other powers take better advantage of it.

Just like the TGI's overload isn't better per se, it's the same tree as every other class, but his other powers (ie Tactical Cloak) take better advantage of it.

For a QMI, there's a lot more extra damage to be had when casting Tactical Scan, so it is objectively better, even if it's the same power. Its effectiveness is boosted by Tactical Cloak, just like the TGI's overload.

Peddro or some other math guy could probably explain it better than I do, and provide numbers. But I believe the difference is quite significant.

[unclemonster]

Annomander wrote...

unclemonster wrote...

Thank you for the explanation.
It is as I thought originally (pre-confusion).
Tac scan is better if cast pre cloak as it will break cloak and adds 3-second cooldown
buff is NOT increased,
so tac scan itself is the exact same QMI vs QME
it is cloaking after the tac scan casting that adds the damage NOT tac scan itself

The end result is the same. The infiltrator still gets more out of the debuff than the soldier or the engineer do, irrespective of how or where this improvement derives from.

Not really...
If the debuff was improved by cloak, ALL my teammates would also benefit from cloak cast tac scan
whether I cast tac scan as a QMI or a QME casts tac scan, the result is THE EXACT SAME!!
it is what is done after the casting that matters
I can get the exact same result, by cloaking and then targeting a tac scan cast from a QME
bottom line:  QMI tac scan=QME tac scan=QMS tac scan

Modifié par unclemonster, 18 janvier 2013 - 07:42 .

[BridgeBurner]

unclemonster wrote...

Annomander wrote...

unclemonster wrote...

Thank you for the explanation.
It is as I thought originally (pre-confusion).
Tac scan is better if cast pre cloak as it will break cloak and adds 3-second cooldown
buff is NOT increased,
so tac scan itself is the exact same QMI vs QME
it is cloaking after the tac scan casting that adds the damage NOT tac scan itself

The end result is the same. The infiltrator still gets more out of the debuff than the soldier or the engineer do, irrespective of how or where this improvement derives from.

Not really...
If the debuff was improved by cloak, ALL my teammates would also benefit from cloak cast tac scan
whether I cast tac scan as a QMI or a QME casts tac scan, the result is THE EXACT SAME!!
it is what is done after the casting that matters
I can get the exact same result, by cloaking and then targeting a tac scan cast from a QME
bottom line:  QMI tac scan=QME tac scan

Yes genius, that's not what we were saying. We were saying it provides more of a benefit to infiltrators.

If you'd read our posts...

Modifié par Annomander, 18 janvier 2013 - 07:42 .

[unclemonster]

Annomander wrote...

unclemonster wrote...

Annomander wrote...

unclemonster wrote...

Thank you for the explanation.
It is as I thought originally (pre-confusion).
Tac scan is better if cast pre cloak as it will break cloak and adds 3-second cooldown
buff is NOT increased,
so tac scan itself is the exact same QMI vs QME
it is cloaking after the tac scan casting that adds the damage NOT tac scan itself

The end result is the same. The infiltrator still gets more out of the debuff than the soldier or the engineer do, irrespective of how or where this improvement derives from.

Not really...
If the debuff was improved by cloak, ALL my teammates would also benefit from cloak cast tac scan
whether I cast tac scan as a QMI or a QME casts tac scan, the result is THE EXACT SAME!!
it is what is done after the casting that matters
I can get the exact same result, by cloaking and then targeting a tac scan cast from a QME
bottom line:  QMI tac scan=QME tac scan

Yes genius, that's not what we were saying. We were saying it provides more of a benefit to infiltrators.

If you'd read our posts...

1st of all: Your degrading comments are unnecessary
I did read...and it IS what you were saying
and I wasn't the only one asking a legit question either...
Once again, you skew things to your corrupted viewpoint towards infiltrators!!!!
bottom line: TAC SCAN IS THE EXACT SAME ON ALL CHARACTERS that have it PERIOD!!!!!!!

Modifié par unclemonster, 18 janvier 2013 - 07:48 .

[Feneckus]

unclemonster wrote...

whether I cast tac scan as a QMI or a QME casts tac scan, the result is THE EXACT SAME!!

Not really.

Take a team of say, Asari Vanguard, Human Soldier, Batarian Sentinel and MQE.

Cast Tac Scan and see how much extra damage the entire team does because of it (ie, how effective Tac Scan was)

Now switch the MQE for an MQI. Tac Scan will cause the entire team to do more extra damage, ie Tac Scan was a better debuffer, ie MQI's Tac Scan > MQE's Tac Scan.

[RoundedPlanet88]

unclemonster wrote...

Annomander wrote...

unclemonster wrote...

Thank you for the explanation.
It is as I thought originally (pre-confusion).
Tac scan is better if cast pre cloak as it will break cloak and adds 3-second cooldown
buff is NOT increased,
so tac scan itself is the exact same QMI vs QME
it is cloaking after the tac scan casting that adds the damage NOT tac scan itself

The end result is the same. The infiltrator still gets more out of the debuff than the soldier or the engineer do, irrespective of how or where this improvement derives from.

Not really...
If the debuff was improved by cloak, ALL my teammates would also benefit from cloak cast tac scan
whether I cast tac scan as a QMI or a QME casts tac scan, the result is THE EXACT SAME!!
it is what is done after the casting that matters
I can get the exact same result, by cloaking and then targeting a tac scan cast from a QME
bottom line:  QMI tac scan=QME tac scan=QMS tac scan

Tac cloak and tac scan give a mulpicative damage boost towards each other as far as I know. in other words, the tac scan gives a boost to teammates, but the infiltrator gets taht boosts multipled by tac cloaks boost, i.e., a non-diminished return.
in other words, tac scan gives x percent damge boost, tac cloak give al least 80%. The infltrator does NOT get 1.8+ x, he gets (1.8)*(1+x) Everything else gets just a 1+x modifier. As far as I`m aware anyway.

[lightswitch]

Feneckus wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

So Tac Scan isn't really better on an infiltrator per se, it's just his other powers take better advantage of it.

Just like the TGI's overload isn't better per se, it's the same tree as every other class, but his other powers (ie Tactical Cloak) take better advantage of it.

*snip*

No, it isn't like that at all. That's a terrible analogy. Overload is actually stronger when cast from cloak. Tac Scan is not.

It's just as accurate to say the QMS also gets more out of Tac Scan than the QME.

[BridgeBurner]

unclemonster wrote...

1st of all: Your degrading comments are unnecessary
I did read...and it IS what you were saying

No it wasn't. Stop trying to invent stuff. YOU misunderstood what I typed.

unclemonster wrote...
bottom line: TAC SCAN IS THE EXACT SAME ON ALL CHARACTERS that have it PERIOD!!!!!!!

Well done, correct, would you like a gold star?

We were never arguing that the ability varies between kits (read out posts; never once do we implicitly or explicitly state this) yet you still read into the post wrong.

For the same number of points invested in tactical scan, an infiltrator gains much more damage as a result.

This was the argument all along. You were just incapable of seeing this.

Modifié par Annomander, 18 janvier 2013 - 07:54 .

[Geek]

Feneckus wrote...

Now switch the MQE for an MQI. Tac Scan will cause the entire team to do more extra damage, ie Tac Scan was a better debuffer, ie MQI's Tac Scan > MQE's Tac Scan.

So are you saying that if each Quarian did nothing but use tac scan the infiltrator's team would do more damage to the scanned target?

Modifié par Geek Fest, 18 janvier 2013 - 07:56 .

[lightswitch]

Feneckus wrote...

unclemonster wrote...

whether I cast tac scan as a QMI or a QME casts tac scan, the result is THE EXACT SAME!!

Not really.

Take a team of say, Asari Vanguard, Human Soldier, Batarian Sentinel and MQE.

Cast Tac Scan and see how much extra damage the entire team does because of it (ie, how effective Tac Scan was)

Now switch the MQE for an MQI. Tac Scan will cause the entire team to do more extra damage, ie Tac Scan was a better debuffer, ie MQI's Tac Scan > MQE's Tac Scan.

What you're saying here and what Annomander said are two very different things. Where's Cyonan? Someone summon the master of numbers please.

[RoundedPlanet88]

It would be intresting to see if warp, tac scan and warp ammo modifiers stack additvly or mulpicativly, and if the order of such "stacking" matters, anyone know anything about that?

Modifié par RoundedPlanet88, 18 janvier 2013 - 07:57 .

[unclemonster]

Feneckus wrote...

unclemonster wrote...

whether I cast tac scan as a QMI or a QME casts tac scan, the result is THE EXACT SAME!!

Not really.

Take a team of say, Asari Vanguard, Human Soldier, Batarian Sentinel and MQE.

Cast Tac Scan and see how much extra damage the entire team does because of it (ie, how effective Tac Scan was)

Now switch the MQE for an MQI. Tac Scan will cause the entire team to do more extra damage, ie Tac Scan was a better debuffer, ie MQI's Tac Scan > MQE's Tac Scan.

now you and Annomander are giving 2 different explanations
(he says NO to extra debuff, whereas you are still saying YES)

[Feneckus]

lightswitch wrote...

No, it isn't like that at all. That's a terrible analogy. Overload is actually stronger when cast from cloak. Tac Scan is not.

The point of a debuff is to do extra damage to a target.

Since an MQI does more extra damage when casting Tac Scan than an MQE, Tac Scan is actually a better power on the MQI. What's so hard to understand ?