Feneckus doesn't let little things like facts, logic, or fair comparisons get in the way of his arguements.
Oh, the irony
Tankcommander wrote...
Cloaking as Infil rarely works for me
I play the Shadow when I've got a bad hangover (only two buttons to press, no aiming required, free shield recharge, perfect) and I have no problem staying undetected as well. I do get some BS like twice a game but no more than that.
Shadow is a bit unique in that her teleport allows you to get enemies otherwise focused. I've never really had problems with her. But I still have bosses ignore even my Volus cloak at times, so cloak isn't that great.
Tankcommander wrote... Shadow is a bit unique in that her teleport allows you to get enemies otherwise focused. I've never really had problems with her. But I still have bosses ignore even my Volus cloak at times, so cloak isn't that great.
The enemy does some weird things that can sometimes allow them to see through cloak(it's far worse in solo play).
Though in general if you don't cloak when something is in the middle of firing a burst on you, and move after you cloak you do a lot better with the invisibility half.
Actually, I would argue the character and mettle of those who hate 'crutch' kits has been clearly revealed for the benefit of all. [/quote]
One side argues with facts, numbers and intelligent discussion about the balance of the game.
The other says "LOL you stupid butthurt elitist"
[/quote]
Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you:
Facts, numbers, and intelligent discussion.
[quote]Feneckus wrote...
I get pissed when my grenade class can't find grenades because the TGI needed his noob packs to stay alive.
[/quote]
[quote]Annomander wrote...
n00b / crutch classes ****** me off not because they've ever come close to outscoring me, but because they owe their entire score to whatever crutch they happen to be using; NOT to any skill they have. And frequently they do things which annoy you or restrict MY ability to play. Standing behind me spamming biotic slash, or flamer so my screen is shaking, or I can't see the enemies is utterly moronic.
Call me an elitist, whatever you like. I'll be over here doubling your score on my vorcha engineer.
Scoring highly I feel is important, as most of the time I'm NOT using something which you might expect to score highly.
[/quote]
[quote]Annomander wrote...
Crutch classes BREAK the balance.
[/quote]
[quote]Dorick wrote...
I feel the same way about the kroguard, TGI, and GI as I do about missile glitchers.
[/quote]
[quote]Feneckus wrote...
All this wouldn't have happened if such a large portion of the community didn't exclusively play OP kits. [/quote]
[quote]Feneckus wrote...
Wait a minute, why I am arguing ? Forget it, I'm just a butthurt elitist.
[/quote]
[quote]Feneckus wrote...
Take a team of say, Asari Vanguard, Human Soldier, Batarian Sentinel and MQE.
Cast Tac Scan and see how much extra damage the entire team does because of it (ie, how effective Tac Scan was)
Now switch the MQE for an MQI. Tac Scan will cause the entire team to do more extra damage, ie Tac Scan was a better debuffer, ie MQI's Tac Scan > MQE's Tac Scan.
[/quote]
[quote]Annomander wrote... [emphasis added]
Well done, correct, would you like a gold star?
We were never arguing that the ability varies between kits (read out posts; never once do we implicitly or explicitly state this) yet you still read into the post wrong.
For the same number of points invested in tactical scan, an infiltrator gains much more damage as a result.
This was the argument all along. You were just incapable of seeing this.
[/quote]
[quote]Feneckus wrote...
[/quote]
This compendium is not comprehensive.
Modifié par lightswitch, 18 janvier 2013 - 09:49 .
It's not irrelevant since the best Engineer is currently the N7 Paladin.
Yes it is. He only has that title because he's bugged. And there's no infiltrators with snap freeze and incinerate. You're comparing apples and oranges. However, if you compare classes who share tech powers, infiltrators are better, even if specced for weapon damage and the engineer has a Power Amplifier.
You also claimed they're the most durable. Half the Vanguards in this game disagree with that statement.
Vanguards have a high risk style of play. Infiltrators just don't die. Especially the GI, SI, QMI and obviously the TGI. Everything's dead before they can pose a threat.
I love how some people have deluded themselves into thinking Mass Effect is competitive and that it's somehow an accomplishment that you can kill predictable enemy NPCs efficiently.
Oh, and that there's a "right" or "skillful" way of killing these NPCs. I guess people will do anything to try and look like hardcore ub3r 1337 gam3rs.
Modifié par Scruffaluphagus, 18 janvier 2013 - 09:58 .
HolyAvenger wrote... I'd redesign TC, something like this:
Rank 4: Weapon Damage 25% or Power Damage 25% Rank 5: Recharge Speed 50% (a big buff) or Movement Speed 25% Rank 6: Duration 100% or Bonus Power
TC would not override the CD of other powers. Using a power from within TC would trigger the CD of the other power (unless you took the rank 6 bonus power evo). Also immediately breaking TC upon shooting would not trigger the minimum 3 sec CD, but the actual CD based on whatever your weapon is and how heavy it is.
Numbers open to change of course.
The problem with all the Tactical Cloak redesigns is that you can't just redesign Tactical Cloak.
People are designing them around the idea that the TGI and GI will be balanced with it, but not all Infiltrators are on the same level as the TGI and GI.
It would be like me trying to balance BEs for the Human Adept around how powerful the Drell Adept is. It just doesn't work because the Drell Adept is so incredibly potent due to Cluster Grenades, which the Human Adept doesn't have.
The best way to balance TC in a future game would be to split it into two powers: Cloak and Assassination. The current All-In-One power is an artifact of the Single Player game. (I do agree that the weapon, power, and melee damage bonuses need to be dissociated like HolyAvenger mentioned above.)
========
Back on topic, I do think the Crutch kits are a result of poor design. What's especially poor design is handcuffing unbalanced kits like the GI or TGI to the GE and Havoc. Balance one, kill the other. FWIW, I blame the limitations that the Bioware Devs are subjected to rather than the Devs themselves.
Modifié par Shampoohorn, 18 janvier 2013 - 10:03 .
Yes it is. He only has that title because he's bugged. And there's no infiltrators with snap freeze and incinerate. You're comparing apples and oranges. However, if you compare classes who share tech powers, infiltrators are better, even if specced for weapon damage and the engineer has a Power Amplifier.
Vanguards have a high risk style of play. Infiltrators just don't die. Especially the GI, SI, QMI and obviously the TGI. Everything's dead before they can pose a threat.
Ah yes, lets play then.
Overload has 220 base damage. My Human Engineer does 440 damage with just passives and Overload evolutions. Cooldown is 2.46 seconds.
440 / 2.46 = 178.86 DPS
Let's give her Tactical Cloak now, shall we? The TGI is the only one with Overload and his passive doesn't have as much power damage but I'll let that slide and just use it on a Human. It'll make the Infiltrator seem better anyway.
You need to add 176 from 80% Tactical Cloak damage. Remember that 1 cloak cycle is 4 seconds because of a 3 second minimum cooldown plus the 1 second mandatory duration.
616 / 4 = 154 DPS
Or maybe you want to use Energy Drain? Both Salarians have that.
Engineer: 210.16 DPS, Infiltrator: 173.25 DPS
So what was that about the Engineer's inferiority in tech damage?
Keep in mind this is actually using a full power damage spec on the Infiltrator.
Certain Vanguards are only at risk of death from sync kills, and Biotic Charge is the second best regeneration ability in the game. Second only to Shield Boost.
Even if you don't count Vanguards, then Volus Adept has better survivability with Biotic Orbs.
Overload has 220 base damage. My Human Engineer does 440 damage with just passives and Overload evolutions. Cooldown is 2.46 seconds.
440 / 2.46 = 178.86 DPS
Let's give her Tactical Cloak now, shall we? The TGI is the only one with Overload and his passive doesn't have as much power damage but I'll let that slide and just use it on a Human. It'll make the Infiltrator seem better anyway.
You need to add 176 from 80% Tactical Cloak damage. Remember that 1 cloak cycle is 4 seconds because of a 3 second minimum cooldown plus the 1 second mandatory duration.
616 / 4 = 154 DPS
Or maybe you want to use Energy Drain? Both Salarians have that.
Engineer: 210.16 DPS, Infiltrator: 173.25 DPS
So what was that about the Engineer's inferiority in tech damage?
Keep in mind this is actually using a full power damage spec on the Infiltrator.
Certain Vanguards are only at risk of death from sync kills, and Biotic Charge is the second best regeneration ability in the game. Second only to Shield Boost.
Even if you don't count Vanguards, then Volus Adept has better survivability with Biotic Orbs.
DPS with a power ? Really ? Again, you math guys do a useful job and everything, but you sometime lose track of what's really important.
Overload is not really a power you spam. Well, you do it but only for the CC aspect of it. When the damage is important is against phantoms.
TGI vs 3 phantoms. He's specced for 3 target overload. The first phantom will have no barriers left.
To do that, a Human Engineer has to spec for max single target damage. 3 chain overload will do pathetic damage. And against phantoms, overload's damage is extremely important since they'll stop shooting at you when you deplete their barriers.
It's like the Claymore having a relatively low DPS compared to other weapons. That's when numbers stop being useful because in-game the great damage you get instantly is much more useful.
Same thing with energy drain. The SI can deplete a lot of unit's shields with it while the SE can't. DPS isn't important, you only use the power once 95% of the time.
This game is unbelievably easy. The difference between terrible players and the best of the best is about 300 hours of play time, depending on how many video game the player has played in the past.
(in my case it is determined by how many beers I have had... More accurately: fail juice)
To argue over 10-30% DPS numbers and claim that something is unbalanced is just insane. If we got four experienced people in a LAN party on Slayers running PD + BC with no weapons whatsoever then clear times would be like 9 minutes or some stupidity on Gold games. If you were to replace those Slayers with some awful class like the Saboteur or (in my opinion) the Slasher Adept, the clear times would be in the 15-20 minute neighborhood.
And if you put those same exact class setups in the hands of the inexperienced they would get crushed every time. So you give the inexperienced TGIs or Krogan Battlemasters. They might clear gold in 25-30 minutes. As they get better at the game that time would get down to the 15 or so minute mark, and then they would be good enough to turn into the people up in the above paragraph. The more forgiving class that does marginally less damage is not imbalanced. It's just more forgiving.
The balance question is just so dumb because this game is so easy. Every enemy is entirely predictable, and the only real danger is that you have teammates that are so bad that they allow enemies to overwhelm them/you. The fact that most classes can solo a difficulty designed for four people (Gold) in the hands of a reasonably experienced player shows how pointless balance discussions are.
Yes, some classes have higher theoretical, or actual DPS than other classes. But really all that matters is learning the predictable enemy movements, and knowing how to use your class abilities. Good weapons and consumables just speed up the clear time.
NOTE - this is in no way a dig at Bioware. I have been very pleasantly surprised with the ME3 multiplayer, and have very few complaints with it. I think it has been an excellent tech demo/proof of concept for the upcoming ME4 multiplayer, and I am personally very excited for it. There are lots of bugs, but few of them are super game-breaking, and there has been a great amount of improvement as the meta-game has developed.
(don't get me started on the worst single-player bioware campaign in their illustrious history, though. ME3 is a horrible single player game, especially when compared to the rest of Bioware's library.)
I often see people complain about Kroguards or TGIs being used as crutch classes for noobs. What's the problem if someone wants to play a crutch character or weapon?
One question to ask I suppose is to whom would this be a problem. Whenever I went with my GI in the lobby, I've never received an X against my name, implying perhaps that those guys in those PUGs were okay with it, which is what matters to me in the end...
I often see people complain about Kroguards or TGIs being used as crutch classes for noobs. What's the problem if someone wants to play a crutch character or weapon?
I don't see a problem with it personally. Its the lack of self awareness i think that makes people lol. they think they are an awesome player and they beat you by 2k points suing a TGI harrier with armored compatments rocketing 8 spawns and brags about it even though you were a level 1 volus and didn't use a rocket.
If you wanna use a crutch go for it, its better then making me revive you eevry 5 seconds, but don't act like you are good at the game becuase of it. People also hate TGIs due to they fact they take all the grenads to survive
To argue over 10-30% DPS numbers and claim that something is unbalanced is just insane. If we got four experienced people in a LAN party on Slayers running PD + BC with no weapons whatsoever then clear times would be like 9 minutes or some stupidity on Gold games. If you were to replace those Slayers with some awful class like the Saboteur or (in my opinion) the Slasher Adept, the clear times would be in the 15-20 minute neighborhood.
An
First of all, no the Slayer /w PD spam couldn't finish an entire Gold game in 9 minutes consistantly without good objectives (talking consistant Pizzas on Wave 10, Targets on Wave 3 etc, maybe room for one Escort or Hack to knock the time down by 20-30 seconds), exceptional rocket usage, good team positioning to force spawns, great communication and a Cerberus/Glacier map and enemy. Sure it's possible to get Sub-9 using QMI/GI/DI+Harrier but hey they get to triple the Harrier's already outrageous (close to 1000) BASE DPS) in an instant (Cloak + TCP + Recon Mine and/or Proximity Mine) but it doesn't mean every class that is good at spawn clearing can do the same, and no not everyone can do that, as far as i know only Jay's crew have reached Sub-9 and only a select few members of Team AreleX (myself, Bechter, Tatty, Navi and HeroicMass) have hit the Sub-9.30 marks. Yup 9 entire people can do runs under 9.30 on Glacier, definately everyone.
Also anyone who labels the Slasher dreadful clearly hasn't got a place in a conversation about Crutch Characters, the Slasher can be seen as a crutch character, an easier to use Drell Adept (Did you know that people STILL think the Drells are a squishy, terrible class, unbelievable isn't it...) sacrificing Multiple BEs for a stronger overall explosion, it's a marginally better boss kill but marginally worse at clearing mob spawns. Marginally being the word, a BA could probably be used in a Sub-10 minute run since you're comparing them in terms of overall damage output, in fact it was used in a twelve and a half minute Gold Trio on Giant vs. Collectors so it can't be that bad of a class.
Though I do agree with you on the "Crutch classes" being acceptable as a way of easing players into an unfamiliar difficulty, it shouldn't be so powerful that it makes it easymode for real good players, the Turian Ghost does this because of rediculous damage output compared with insane survivability (Amazing CC, 5 to 8 extra OSPs on tap that also increase damage and buff your overall shield strength). The class is OP, it's an Infiltrator with Vanguard-esque survival tactics. I seldom label a class OP but the TGI is, it is also extremely boring to play but that's a different story. Sure it's a crutch but it's a better crutch than the Kroguard (it's putting out 100% more weapon damage, more if using an Assault Rifle and has a Stability Bonus and a Dodge). It doesn't need to be so good.
Feneckus wrote... DPS with a power ? Really ? Again, you math guys do a useful job and everything, but you sometime lose track of what's really important.
Overload is not really a power you spam. Well, you do it but only for the CC aspect of it. When the damage is important is against phantoms.
TGI vs 3 phantoms. He's specced for 3 target overload. The first phantom will have no barriers left.
To do that, a Human Engineer has to spec for max single target damage. 3 chain overload will do pathetic damage. And against phantoms, overload's damage is extremely important since they'll stop shooting at you when you deplete their barriers.
It's like the Claymore having a relatively low DPS compared to other weapons. That's when numbers stop being useful because in-game the great damage you get instantly is much more useful.
Same thing with energy drain. The SI can deplete a lot of unit's shields with it while the SE can't. DPS isn't important, you only use the power once 95% of the time.
The damage is important against all shields and barriers, and as a detonator.
Energy Drain isn't going to break a Phantom's barrier because it's not bugged like Overload is. The Human Engineer can break all but a Platinum Phantom's barrier with equipment on. You can't claim they're better overall Engineers because of a single unit.
If we're talking about spamming it for CC then the Engineers still win because they can use it once every 2.46 seconds while the Infiltrators are once every 4 seconds.
Of course, the Human Engineer also wont use Overload on an armoured target. They'll use Incinerate.
A single cast of Incinerate does ~2000 damage. If you go for frozen damage, you can get up to ~2800 damage. Lets see your Salarian Infiltrator do that with Proximity Mine or Energy Drain.
Let's see your Quarian Male Infiltrator be able to follow up his Arc Grenade with an Incinerate that triggers a Tech Burst.
An Engineer using only their powers will do better than an Infiltrator using only their powers.
Infiltrators are not the best weapons users, nor are they the best tech users.
They combine the two to become the best overall damage dealers.
I like to ply all the classes. Some I am near pro with. Some I should be playing bronze. I am awful at GI...avoid theTGI...and can rock the drellguard. Outside the GI and TGI what are considered krutch?
...My Human Engineer does 440 damage with just passives and Overload evolutions. Cooldown is 2.46 seconds.
440 / 2.46 = 178.86 DPS
The TGI is the only one with Overload ... You need to add 176 from 80% Tactical Cloak damage.
616 / 4 = 154 DPS
Or maybe you want to use Energy Drain? Both Salarians have that.
Engineer: 210.16 DPS, Infiltrator: 173.25 DPS
Pardon my snips, but I just wanted to deal with what I saw as the root of your point with respect to power damage. I think that the element you've left out of that comparison is weapon weight. There's a breakpoint somewhere around 120% weapon bonus (just a guess) where the Infiltrator's ability to ignore cooldown overcomes any advantage the engineer might have WRT faster cooldowns. Given that bigger weapons generally mean more DPS, the engineers quickly fall far behind in total potential DPS.
Feneckus's point about the utility of higher damage spikes is also relevant given that your power DPS numbers represent an ideal (i.e. unachievable) state for nearly all characters except maybe vanguards.
Also, the Huntress, Drell and MQuarian and Infiltrators don't fit into your comparison since their damage powers rely on different mechanics than GCD. (The huntress is best served by using DC as a Fire&Forget damage dealing power.)
I'd say all the Infiltrator's have a power damage advantage over all Engineers (or the Fury) in the majority of cases.
Modifié par Shampoohorn, 19 janvier 2013 - 12:31 .
Shampoohorn wrote... Pardon my snips, but I just wanted to deal with what I saw as the root of your point with respect to power damage. I think that the element you've left out of that comparison is weapon weight. There's a breakpoint somewhere around 120% weapon bonus (just a guess) where the Infiltrator's ability to ignore cooldown overcomes any advantage the engineer might have WRT faster cooldowns. Given that bigger weapons generally mean more DPS, the engineers quickly fall far behind in total potential DPS.
Feneckus's point about the utility of higher damage spikes is also relevant given that your power DPS numbers represent an ideal (i.e. unachievable) state for nearly all characters except maybe vanguards.
Also, the Huntress, Drell and MQuarian and Infiltrators don't fit into your comparison since their damage powers rely on different mechanics than GCD. (The huntress is best served by using DC as a Fire&Forget damage dealing power.)
I'd say all the Infiltrator's have a power damage advantage over all Engineers (or the Fury) in the majority of cases.
At 75% weapon weight your Overload will have a 4 second cooldown(I'm assuming you picked up Neural Shock and not Recharge Speed at rank 5).
My Engineer can bring the Hurricane, Reegar, or Piranha and still have a shorter cooldown than 4 seconds. These are the highest DPS weapons in the game(there is also the PPR but nobody can spam cast while using it without ruining the DPS anyway).
However, Infiltrators do not ignore weapon weight no matter how many times the BSN wants to make this claim. Not immediately breaking cloak when running very heavy setups result in long cooldown times. Only Grenadiers can ignore weight.
As I pointed out earlier in this thread, can your Male Quarian Infiltrator follow up his Arc Grenade with an Incinerate that triggers a Tech Burst? Can he use his Arc Grenade to trigger his own Fire Explosion that was set up by Incinerate?
Yes his Arc Grenade hits harder than the MQEs, but no the MQI does not deal more tech damage overall.
Asari Huntress does not use tech damage, so she's not really relevant in a discussion about who is the best tech user(Which is actually the N7 Paladin as I said before). If I'm allowed to bring biotics into the mix then Infiltrators have lost because Drelldept.
In the majority of cases I would say that the Engineer is going to deal more tech damage than the Infiltrator. One of the exceptions is the Drellfiltrator vs the Volus Engineer because of Recon Mine's insanely long base cooldown.
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