593 réponses à ce sujet

[bogsters23]

it does not bother me what kits my team use. the more OP the better, less work for me. i just play for fun with friends.

[Ziegrif]

Annomander wrote...

Ziegrif wrote...

From a game designer standpoint I guess it's more in the form of if people become one trick ponies and never venture onto the harder characters to use and learn them, they'll get bored faster.

You'd think so wouldn't you?

The problem being I see the same monkeys playing TGI / kroguard or whatever else happens to be in fashion this week time and time again in gold games. Never once are they better, never once do they actually look like they should be in gold.

Based my comment off of this.

http://www.penny-arc...ncing-for-skill

Seemed like a pretty good assessment on the tippytoe scale of balance and skill.

[NuclearTech76]

My opinion is that a player shouldn't limit themselves too much to a particular character or weapon combo but I have no problem with them using these "noob" classes.

[BridgeBurner]

brad2240 wrote...

Ok, honest question here:

Would you rather have somebody on your team who's contributing because its a good class, despite a low skill level, or somebody who's just plain sucking with an average class and dragging the whole team down?

You can contribute without needing to use an easy mode class. The answer is to become better at the game, not to rely on XYZ combination to carry you.

If you are "just plain sucking" with a non-infiltrator, or without a reegar, or without playing kroguard then they shouldn't be playing in gold then should they?

HolyAvenger wrote...

If I don't like a lobby I just find another one.

This was easier 4 months ago. Now everyone is hellbent on starting the game with only 2 players in the lobby, so my valkyrie or my slasher gets dropped into a game in progress with 2 people both using disruptor ammo.

<_<

Modifié par Annomander, 17 janvier 2013 - 08:17 .

[Bechter]

You're all elitist's and should be thrown out of an airlock!

[Fawx9]

LOL this thread is hilarious.

I mean unless one of these so called crutch classes just invalidates every other class than I see no harm in it. It's a bloody co-op game. There's not even an economy. One person playing a TGI cause they think its good/cool doesn't affect anyone else in any meaningful way. They'd die more or less the same amount if they were using another class anyways so it not like it's a handicap that hurting credits/hour or anything else.

This is worse than nerf threads on Diablo boards because a character can clear a certain act faster than others. At least those game actually have an economy that is influenced by players and their farming rates.

[Crimson Vanguard]

Ziegrif wrote...

Annomander wrote...

Ziegrif wrote...

From a game designer standpoint I guess it's more in the form of if people become one trick ponies and never venture onto the harder characters to use and learn them, they'll get bored faster.

You'd think so wouldn't you?

The problem being I see the same monkeys playing TGI / kroguard or whatever else happens to be in fashion this week time and time again in gold games. Never once are they better, never once do they actually look like they should be in gold.

Based my comment off of this.

http://www.penny-arc...ncing-for-skill

Seemed like a pretty good assessment on the tippytoe scale of balance and skill.

ALso you should note that:

A GI is harder to play than a TGI but if mastered its way better than TGI.

A Krosentinel was supposed to be overshadowed by Kroguard. But if well played, his power can surpass Kroguard in term of offensive.

4 Biotic users who teamwork together is better than 4 TGIs who run around and shoot stuffs. Plus also the matter of Grenade.

Modifié par Crimson Vanguard, 17 janvier 2013 - 08:15 .

[blacklight309]

monkeyhunter wrote...
Valid point, but if you're just farming the game gets tedious, if not, good for you guys, I guess.

llandwynwyn wrote...
Can't speak for other people, but I find boring to play with the same group of characters all the f*cking time.

I actually find farming and playing the same characters to be quite enjoyable. But maybe I'm just weird... 

Annomander wrote...
n00b / crutch classes ****** me off...because they owe their entire score to whatever crutch they happen to be using; NOT to any skill they have.

Ok, but...why does this fact ****** you off, exactly?

Modifié par blacklight309, 17 janvier 2013 - 08:17 .

[Original Twigman]

NuclearTech76 wrote...

I often see people complain about Kroguards or TGIs being used as crutch classes for noobs. What's the problem if someone wants to play a crutch character or weapon?

I think its an unfortunate attitude some people have. It limits your lobby pool to consider "only X class" as viable or "worthy."

I don't care if someone brings a "crutch" class so that they can "contribute." It shows that they are willing to participate and have some fun. You want to play the TGI? Go ahead!!

[FataliTensei]

I think it's because people get pissy when they get outscored, so they just say that whatever beat them is just "way too OP". Some classes are better than others but overall the gap isn't as wide as some people make it out to be. Again it's people getting pissy when they outscored.

[lightswitch]

Annomander wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

The truth is that new or inexperienced players don't know how to use the TGI. They don't know when to use stim packs and don't have them when they really need them, they try to use the Harrier like a firehose don't hit anything and never have ammo, and they barely understand the utility of Overload.

Topping the scoreboard with a TGI takes a good understanding of game mechanics, good aim, and trigger control: i.e., 'skill', just like with any other class.

Like pointing your gun at the enemy? And pressing your number 2 button?

And of course, the TGI is in no way helped in any way by the invincibility that n00b packs provide and the 100% extra damage cloak gives.

You really are ignorant.



Traditionally a no-fitness build has some sort of risk factor involved. Yet, when last I checked a no-fitness TGI was actually optimal as your survivability is virtually the same and your damage output is higher as a consequence of going no fitness. Wheras "no-fitness" should mean you are less survivable at the expense of more damage... a concept foreign to the TGI.

Yes...yes, I know nothing about this game. At least I have the ability to use reason and logic however, and I know a straw man fallacy when I see one.

You implied that I suggested the TGIs powers were useless. I never said this, however; I merely said that using them to great effect takes skill.

As for your point about fitness, noobs die with TGIs all the time. They're not as easy to survive with as you would like.

Edit: Heh, this really made me chuckle:

Annomander wrote...

Like pointing your gun at the enemy?

Ahh, yes, you may be familiar with the common vernacular: "aiming." Generally regarded as the primary skill for most gamers everywhere, skill levels vary greatly between players, and those who are very good at it can become quite famous within the communities of their respective games. Those who are not so good at aiming, however, will generally waste a lot of bullets, have no ammo, and in general not be very good at killing things, no matter how much they try to exploit game mechanics by using so-called 'crutch' characters.

Modifié par lightswitch, 17 janvier 2013 - 08:29 .

[Sgt SuperWae]

Funny thing is, in the fighting game circuit, using a top tier character is mostly recognized as good strategy. Meanwhile, those who condemn others for using such characters, or refuse to use these characters themselves just because they're top tier, are recognized as scrubs.

Check the link, and maybe someone can explain why -- in a co-op game -- this mentality is somehow flipped around.

[BridgeBurner]

blacklight309 wrote...
Ok, but...why does this fact ****** you off, exactly?

I played Unreal Tournament for a very long time. I still do. I even have both a steam version of UT3 and a regular edition with all my unlocked character skins, achievements, play time invested and mods / maps.

UT, despite having no "in-game" leaderboards as such, is highly competitive and ridiculously good fun.

I don't play this game for credits, I play this game for fun.

And fun for me is deriven from whether or not I can achieve certain things in game; 20 headshots medal, 50 melee kills medal, high score, etc.

I rarely play kits you would call "powerful" in fact, with some I deliberately go out my way to gimp most kits to make them interesting.

Scoring highly I feel is important, as most of the time I'm NOT using something which you might expect to score highly. 

Unreal Tournament is a highly balanced game; every weapon is equally powerful in skilled hands.

The problem with mass effect 3 is this is not the case. Some weapons / characters over perform in under-skilled hands.

And I guess my old habits from Unreal Tournament die hard. When I see someone using something which is blatantly more powerful than what I'm using (or that shakes my screen like grenade spam, or blocks my view like flamer or overwrites my biotic effects like disruptor / overload) then it diminishes my feeling of enjoyment from the game.

Modifié par Annomander, 17 janvier 2013 - 08:27 .

[mrs_anomaly]

lightswitch wrote...

Annomander wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

The truth is that new or inexperienced players don't know how to use the TGI. They don't know when to use stim packs and don't have them when they really need them, they try to use the Harrier like a firehose don't hit anything and never have ammo, and they barely understand the utility of Overload.

Topping the scoreboard with a TGI takes a good understanding of game mechanics, good aim, and trigger control: i.e., 'skill', just like with any other class.

Like pointing your gun at the enemy? And pressing your number 2 button?

And of course, the TGI is in no way helped in any way by the invincibility that n00b packs provide and the 100% extra damage cloak gives.

You really are ignorant.



Traditionally a no-fitness build has some sort of risk factor involved. Yet, when last I checked a no-fitness TGI was actually optimal as your survivability is virtually the same and your damage output is higher as a consequence of going no fitness. Wheras "no-fitness" should mean you are less survivable at the expense of more damage... a concept foreign to the TGI.

Yes...yes, I know nothing about this game. At least I have the ability to use reason and logic however, and I know a straw man fallacy when I see one.

You implied that I suggested the TGIs powers were useless. I never said this, however; I merely said that using them to great effect takes skill.

As for your point about fitness, noobs die with TGIs all the time. They're not as easy to survive with as you would like.

I'm a complete noob with the TGI. I've run mine probably twice. In both cases I remember struggling trying to make him as "epic" as everyone says he is. Now- one could say "well you just suck clearly!" I'd say yep, I do when it comes to a lot of the classes I never use. My point is- unless you know how to play him effectively at least somewhat you are not going to be fantastic at the TGI. I've seen so many TGI's in U/U/G go down repeatedly and my squishy Human Adept revives those countless times. 

You do actually have to L2P for the TGI to be incredible. It does require some skill IMO. I doubt that most of the characters even with optimal builds and setups are even just instant wins for most people- you have to be able to play them. Even the Human Adept with her mere three biotic skills is just mashing three buttons yes? I rarely see a good one. She's a powerhouse- but only if you actually learn to play her. 

[NuclearTech76]

lightswitch wrote...

Annomander wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

The truth is that new or inexperienced players don't know how to use the TGI. They don't know when to use stim packs and don't have them when they really need them, they try to use the Harrier like a firehose don't hit anything and never have ammo, and they barely understand the utility of Overload.

Topping the scoreboard with a TGI takes a good understanding of game mechanics, good aim, and trigger control: i.e., 'skill', just like with any other class.

Like pointing your gun at the enemy? And pressing your number 2 button?

And of course, the TGI is in no way helped in any way by the invincibility that n00b packs provide and the 100% extra damage cloak gives.

You really are ignorant.



Traditionally a no-fitness build has some sort of risk factor involved. Yet, when last I checked a no-fitness TGI was actually optimal as your survivability is virtually the same and your damage output is higher as a consequence of going no fitness. Wheras "no-fitness" should mean you are less survivable at the expense of more damage... a concept foreign to the TGI.

Yes...yes, I know nothing about this game. At least I have the ability to use reason and logic however, and I know a straw man fallacy when I see one.

You implied that I suggested the TGIs powers were useless. I never said this, however; I merely said that using them to great effect takes skill.

As for your point about fitness, noobs die with TGIs all the time. They're not as easy to survive with as you would like.

Heh, this really made me chuckle:

Annomander wrote...

Like pointing your gun at the enemy?

Ahh, yes, you may be familiar with the common vernacular: "aiming." Generally regarded as the primary skill for most gamers everywhere, skill levels vary greatly between players, and those who are very good at it can become quite famous within the communities of their respective games. Those who are not so good at aiming, however, will generally waste a lot of bullets, have no ammo, and in general not be very good at killing things, no matter how much they try to exploit game mechanics by using so-called 'crutch' characters.

I can kind of see both sides here. The TGI makes just about everyone's skill level a litlle higher than it actually is unless they are complete idiots. I can usually play a terrible PUG match with him and never use a single consumable on Gold with most other kits and a terrible lobby I'm at least using something.

All of that said, it doesn't matter to me any whatsoever. The scoreboard doesn't matter even though I'm competitive with friends at times. All I care about is having fun, being successful, and clearing in a decent time.

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

Sgt SuperWae wrote...

Funny thing is, in the fighting game circuit, using a top tier character is mostly recognized as good strategy. Meanwhile, those who condemn others for using such characters, or refuse to use these characters themselves just because they're top tier, are recognized as scrubs.

Check the link, and maybe someone can explain why -- in a co-op game -- this mentality is somehow flipped around.

QFT.

This reminds me of when I was still playing CSS comp, and pubstars were moaning about the AWP (who is a oneshot-onekill weapon no matter where you aim, even with Kevlar, except for the leg) because it's a "noskill" weapon compared to the Scout which needs a clean headshot to OS.

I see nothing wrong with using efficient builds/the best characters/the best weapons. If that's how you want to play the game, go ahead. I'll play the game my way myself. I don't tell people how to play, and you don't tell me how to play. That's how it should be .

PS : I rarely use the TGI/Kroguard myself, but that's because I don't like Turians as a whole and I don't play Krogans .


PS 2 : I can understand Annomander/Feneckus's point of view though, there are a few things which don't make sense. The Human Engineer overload damage should be better than the TGI's overload damage for example. Stuff could be balanced easier if skill trees were separated. 

 i.e. BioWare could have nerfed the TGI's stims without touching the Havoc's stims.

Modifié par Jay_Hoxtatron, 17 janvier 2013 - 08:31 .

[Bechter]

Annomander wrote...
When I see someone using something which is blatantly more powerful than what I'm using (or that shakes my screen like grenade spam, or blocks my view like flamer or overwrites my biotic effects like disruptor / overload) then it diminishes my feeling of enjoyment from the game.

Send me your personal code of conduct for ME3 and I'll start a forward to all my friends and then they will send it to their friends so eventually the entire community will play by your made up set of rules. Sounds reasonable to me.

After all every teammate should care about how their play affects your enjoyment and nothing more.

Modifié par Bechter, 17 janvier 2013 - 08:32 .

[Dorick]

I have a serious dislike for Kroguard, Turian Ghost, and Geth Infiltrator. Way OP, kind of throws balance out of the game. And its not about when a noob uses that character, its when a decent player does. Like I dont want to play a match with a missile glitcher because it essentially breaks the game, same deal when someone with harrier x on a ghost enters the game. It just cancels the fun for the next 30 minutes.

If you want to feel like you did a great job for your team by scoring well, but can't compete with a crutch kit, makes it feel like that kit needs a nerf. That's all.

Those characters are popular for the same reason the missile glitch is popular.

[Felhand]

Given the sheer number of terribad players combined with terrible mechanics and sometimes gimpy enemies crutches are going to be needed by some (see:many) folks, would you begrudge a crippled man the use of a handicap zone? I bet you would, you illegal handicap zone parking bastard you.

The problem comes when some mediocre player steps into the special olympics and is all happy hes winning a game you really cant win that way I mean sure they are handing out medals at the end of each match but your still just sitting at the front of the short bus when all is said and done.

(On the other hand a skilled player is going to dominate no matter what you give him or her, be it a crutch or a rat-flail.)

[Strongwater]

mrs_anomaly wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

Annomander wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

The truth is that new or inexperienced players don't know how to use the TGI. They don't know when to use stim packs and don't have them when they really need them, they try to use the Harrier like a firehose don't hit anything and never have ammo, and they barely understand the utility of Overload.

Topping the scoreboard with a TGI takes a good understanding of game mechanics, good aim, and trigger control: i.e., 'skill', just like with any other class.

Like pointing your gun at the enemy? And pressing your number 2 button?

And of course, the TGI is in no way helped in any way by the invincibility that n00b packs provide and the 100% extra damage cloak gives.

You really are ignorant.



Traditionally a no-fitness build has some sort of risk factor involved. Yet, when last I checked a no-fitness TGI was actually optimal as your survivability is virtually the same and your damage output is higher as a consequence of going no fitness. Wheras "no-fitness" should mean you are less survivable at the expense of more damage... a concept foreign to the TGI.

Yes...yes, I know nothing about this game. At least I have the ability to use reason and logic however, and I know a straw man fallacy when I see one.

You implied that I suggested the TGIs powers were useless. I never said this, however; I merely said that using them to great effect takes skill.

As for your point about fitness, noobs die with TGIs all the time. They're not as easy to survive with as you would like.

I'm a complete noob with the TGI. I've run mine probably twice. In both cases I remember struggling trying to make him as "epic" as everyone says he is. Now- one could say "well you just suck clearly!" I'd say yep, I do when it comes to a lot of the classes I never use. My point is- unless you know how to play him effectively at least somewhat you are not going to be fantastic at the TGI. I've seen so many TGI's in U/U/G go down repeatedly and my squishy Human Adept revives those countless times. 

You do actually have to L2P for the TGI to be incredible. It does require some skill IMO. I doubt that most of the characters even with optimal builds and setups are even just instant wins for most people- you have to be able to play them. Even the Human Adept with her mere three biotic skills is just mashing three buttons yes? I rarely see a good one. She's a powerhouse- but only if you actually learn to play her. 

This.  And the same thing about the Kroguard.  I and other players I see can really, truly suck with the Kroguard.  It is not a good kit unless you know how to effectively target your attacks.  I'm sure if I played it a whole lot, I'd get good at it, and I'm sure some people do say "hey, I think this is a good class, I am ONLY going to play this until I am awesome at it and nothing else", but it takes the skill to even identify good classes to focus on them.  If I didn't read BSN, I wouldn't know what cards I was getting were "crutches" or not...I just take them all for a spin and see if I like their abilities.  I'm not certain there's any class in the game besides the basic humans that are off-the-bat easy/tactically understandable for newbies.

[Original Twigman]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

Sgt SuperWae wrote...

Funny thing is, in the fighting game circuit, using a top tier character is mostly recognized as good strategy. Meanwhile, those who condemn others for using such characters, or refuse to use these characters themselves just because they're top tier, are recognized as scrubs.

Check the link, and maybe someone can explain why -- in a co-op game -- this mentality is somehow flipped around.

QFT.

This reminds me of when I was still playing CSS comp, and pubstars were moaning about the AWP (who is a oneshot-onekill weapon no matter where you aim, even with Kevlar, except for the leg) because it's a "noskill" weapon compared to the Scout which needs a clean headshot to OS.

I see nothing wrong with using efficient builds/the best characters/the best weapons. If that's how you want to play the game, go ahead. I'll play the game my way myself. I don't tell people how to play, and you don't tell me how to play. That's how it should be .

PS : I rarely use the TGI/Kroguard myself, but that's because I don't like Turians as a whole and I don't play Krogans .


PS 2 : I can understand Annomander/Feneckus's point of view though, there are a few things which don't make sense. The Human Engineer overload damage should be better than the TGI's overload damage for example. Stuff could be balanced easier if skill trees were separated. 

 i.e. BioWare could have nerfed the TGI's stims without touching the Havoc's stims.

In any game, competitive or not, anything is useable, so long as you stay within the rules of the game (no missile glitching). The only time this actually gets "iffy" is when you have rules in place that specificly don't allow certain features (ex. performance enhancing drugs in the olympics), yet people get away with it.

To this date, I don't think bioware has officially release a rule book about what characters you can and can't play.

Edit: So, pretty much extending what Jay said

Modifié par Original Stikman, 17 janvier 2013 - 08:36 .

[Bechter]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...
QFT.

This reminds me of when I was still playing CSS comp, and pubstars were moaning about the AWP (who is a oneshot-onekill weapon no matter where you aim, even with Kevlar, except for the leg) because it's a "noskill" weapon compared to the Scout which needs a clean headshot to OS.

I see nothing wrong with using efficient builds/the best characters/the best weapons. If that's how you want to play the game, go ahead. I'll play the game my way myself. I don't tell people how to play, and you don't tell me how to play. That's how it should be .

PS : I rarely use the TGI/Kroguard myself, but that's because I don't like Turians as a whole and I don't play Krogans .


PS 2 : I can understand Annomander/Feneckus's point of view though, there are a few things which don't make sense. The Human Engineer overload damage should be better than the TGI's overload damage for example. Stuff could be balanced easier if skill trees were separated. 

 i.e. BioWare could have nerfed the TGI's stims without touching the Havoc's stims.

you sir are one of my favorite posters:D. I reasonable response from a elite player who understands seperate view points. You make me want to jump to pc and tolerate the french  but i can barely boot up my xbox.

[ladyvader]

llandwynwyn wrote...

Can't speak for other people, but I find boring to play with the same group of characters all the f*cking time.

Agreed.

The 200 waves with kits I really don't like gets old quick too.

[Mendelevosa]

 Only elitists label characters as "crutch characters."

[BridgeBurner]

Bechter wrote...

Send me your personal code of conduct for ME3 and I'll start a forward to all my friends and then they will send it to their friends so eventually the entire community will play by your made up set of rules. Sounds reasonable to me.

After all every teammate should care about how their play affects your enjoyment and nothing more.

I love this.

Everyone's argument: "score doesn't matter because it's a co-op game!"

Then your argument turns round to: "Your enjoyment doesn't matter in this Co-op game."

So if this is a co-op game, why should I have my enjoyment diminished by your brainlessness?

See, I can reverse the whole argument that you guys just love using.

"Hey guys it's a co-op game, but excuse me whilst I completely disregard the co-operative aspect and pay no attention to whether or not MY play style is interfering with anyone else's. But it's a co-op game remember."

Emphasis on the "co-op" if I can't see anything because of your flamer spam, then we aren't co-operating are we? You rendering me unable to see the enemies =/= co-operation.

Modifié par Annomander, 17 janvier 2013 - 08:42 .