593 réponses à ce sujet

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

Dorick wrote...

I have a serious dislike for Kroguard, Turian Ghost, and Geth Infiltrator. Way OP, kind of throws balance out of the game. And its not about when a noob uses that character, its when a decent player does. Like I dont want to play a match with a missile glitcher because it essentially breaks the game, same deal when someone with harrier x on a ghost enters the game. It just cancels the fun for the next 30 minutes.

If you want to feel like you did a great job for your team by scoring well, but can't compete with a crutch kit, makes it feel like that kit needs a nerf. That's all.

Those characters are popular for the same reason the missile glitch is popular.

Haha. In this case, you should also have a serious dislike for lobbies with *every grenade class user*, *every Annihilation Field user*, *every Tactical Cloak user*, *every ARush/Marksman/Devastator Mode user*, * every Reave/Warp user*, because they clear just as fast as a Kroguard/TGI/GI team. Clear time would maybe be 1 min or 2 longer.

[palmof40sorrows]

If you like playing them, play them. Ignore those that criticize what you find to be fun. It may be "too easy" for them, and as such boring. If it's fun for you, go for it.

[Crimson Vanguard]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

Dorick wrote...

I have a serious dislike for Kroguard, Turian Ghost, and Geth Infiltrator. Way OP, kind of throws balance out of the game. And its not about when a noob uses that character, its when a decent player does. Like I dont want to play a match with a missile glitcher because it essentially breaks the game, same deal when someone with harrier x on a ghost enters the game. It just cancels the fun for the next 30 minutes.

If you want to feel like you did a great job for your team by scoring well, but can't compete with a crutch kit, makes it feel like that kit needs a nerf. That's all.

Those characters are popular for the same reason the missile glitch is popular.

Haha. In this case, you should also have a serious dislike for lobbies with *every grenade class user*, *every Annihilation Field user*, *every Tactical Cloak user*, *every ARush/Marksman/Devastator Mode user*, * every Reave/Warp user*, because they clear just as fast as a Kroguard/TGI/GI team. Clear time would maybe be 1 min or 2 longer.

I have never in my life saw a good GI, TGI, Kroguard in PUG. Those that are good in PUG used kits like Human Sentinel, Fury, Turian Sentinel or other rarely played kits.

[Dorick]

Mendelevosa wrote...

 Only elitists label characters as "crutch characters."

why the term "elitist"?
Should I be calling anyone who considers the TG a balanced character a "noob"?

[lightswitch]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

*edited for clarity*

I see nothing wrong with using efficient builds/the best characters/the best weapons. If that's how you want to play the game, go ahead. I'll play the game my way myself. I don't tell people how to play, and you don't tell me how to play. That's how it should be .

The Human Engineer overload damage should be better than the TGI's overload damage for example. Stuff could be balanced easier if skill trees were separated. 

 i.e. BioWare could have nerfed the TGI's stims without touching the Havoc's stims.

QFT.

Agree 100% on all three of these points. Good post.

[Crimson Vanguard]

lightswitch wrote...

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

*edited for clarity*

I see nothing wrong with using efficient builds/the best characters/the best weapons. If that's how you want to play the game, go ahead. I'll play the game my way myself. I don't tell people how to play, and you don't tell me how to play. That's how it should be .

The Human Engineer overload damage should be better than the TGI's overload damage for example. Stuff could be balanced easier if skill trees were separated. 

 i.e. BioWare could have nerfed the TGI's stims without touching the Havoc's stims.

QFT.

Agree 100% on all three of these points. Good post.

It would make more sense if:

TC only boost damage from headshot (make more sense than overall damage boost)

Rank 6b of TC will have a unique bonus for each character (Geth Weapon for Geth, Power for Asari, AR for Turian, Sniper Rifle for certain Salarian,...)

[Dorick]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

Dorick wrote...

I have a serious dislike for Kroguard, Turian Ghost, and Geth Infiltrator. Way OP, kind of throws balance out of the game. And its not about when a noob uses that character, its when a decent player does. Like I dont want to play a match with a missile glitcher because it essentially breaks the game, same deal when someone with harrier x on a ghost enters the game. It just cancels the fun for the next 30 minutes.

If you want to feel like you did a great job for your team by scoring well, but can't compete with a crutch kit, makes it feel like that kit needs a nerf. That's all.

Those characters are popular for the same reason the missile glitch is popular.

Haha. In this case, you should also have a serious dislike for lobbies with *every grenade class user*, *every Annihilation Field user*, *every Tactical Cloak user*, *every ARush/Marksman/Devastator Mode user*, * every Reave/Warp user*, because they clear just as fast as a Kroguard/TGI/GI team. Clear time would maybe be 1 min or 2 longer.

But that would be suggesting the Turian Ghost is balanced with the turian engineer, who uses a grenade.
That's a terrible argument. 
A team of four turian ghosts will outperform a team of four havocs, or four saboteurs. This is what I mean by unbalanced.


When I said "crutch kit" i am referring to just these three classes kroguard, turian ghost, and GI. I've played the MP game over 700 hours now, you arent about to convince me these classes are balanced. 

[Matthias King]

Annomander wrote...
The problem with mass effect 3 is this is not the case. Some weapons / characters over perform in under-skilled hands.

When I see someone using something which is blatantly more powerful than what I'm using...then it diminishes my feeling of enjoyment from the game.

This is something about the elitists on this game that I'll never understand.

To the first part of your post that I quoted, contrary to what you and the other elitists claim, the easy-mode kits and weapons like the the TGI+Harrier don't guarantee that they're going to be more powerful or score high.  I've outscored people on Gold who were using powerful combos such as the TGI and Harrier while I was using the Avenger on characters like the Human Soldier, Human Engineer, Asari Justicar, etc...and that's not to say I'm god's gift to the game.  That's to point out that you're crying about these kits making 'unskilled' players too powerful when that's simply not the case.  I'll also point out that I could care less about score.

As to the second part, when I see someone in the lobby using nothing but a Shuriken or something that seems likely to underperform, I don't think to myself, "Oh sweet!  I get to have all the points because the points are really important in a co-op game for some reason!  Yay for me!"  I think, "Oh great!  I get to try and revive this guy 10 times per wave before we wipe on wave 6!"  You say someone using a powerful kit diminishes your enjoyment.  Well, if reviving the Shuriken guy before you wipe is your idea of what enhances your enjoyment of the game, then I just don't get you.

[Dorick]

Crimson Vanguard wrote...

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

Dorick wrote...

I have a serious dislike for Kroguard, Turian Ghost, and Geth Infiltrator. Way OP, kind of throws balance out of the game. And its not about when a noob uses that character, its when a decent player does. Like I dont want to play a match with a missile glitcher because it essentially breaks the game, same deal when someone with harrier x on a ghost enters the game. It just cancels the fun for the next 30 minutes.

If you want to feel like you did a great job for your team by scoring well, but can't compete with a crutch kit, makes it feel like that kit needs a nerf. That's all.

Those characters are popular for the same reason the missile glitch is popular.

Haha. In this case, you should also have a serious dislike for lobbies with *every grenade class user*, *every Annihilation Field user*, *every Tactical Cloak user*, *every ARush/Marksman/Devastator Mode user*, * every Reave/Warp user*, because they clear just as fast as a Kroguard/TGI/GI team. Clear time would maybe be 1 min or 2 longer.

I have never in my life saw a good GI, TGI, Kroguard in PUG. Those that are good in PUG used kits like Human Sentinel, Fury, Turian Sentinel or other rarely played kits.

It's nice to claim that, but objectively, not only have a seen numerous overuse of a "good" GI, TGI, kroguard in PUG matches, but I know from personal use that those characters arent balanced. So I'm not sure what you are trying to point out. 

[RiouHotaru]

Annomander wrote...

Feneckus wrote...

Also, too many people playing crutch characters leads to legit things being nerfed.

TGI --> Havoc
GI --> Geth Engineer
Tactical Cloak --> Krysae
Tactical Cloak/Devastator Mode --> Piranha
Farming --> Smash, Sabotage

+ combat drone

+ decoy

Neither of the above would have been touched if firebase white farming using salarian engineer decoy as clutch hadn't been so widespread.

Except the issues with those abilities were legit concerns.  The farming simply made the problem blatantly clear.

[Cyonan]

Elitists get upset when somebody they don't think are that good are using an easier character on the higher difficulties. Apparently this clearly makes them a scrub that can't play a real class.

It was no different in WoW. I remember a guy who got really mad because I was outperforming him as a tank, and he started going off about how Paladin tanks are a crutch class for scrubs who can't play a real tank.

Since I didn't need any gear from the bosses left, I offered to get my Warrior tank, then proceeded to outperform him on that as well, despite losing the gear advantage I had on my Paladin.

Just ignore the people that get upset that something is easier to play and play whatever you feel like.

[lightswitch]

Crimson Vanguard wrote...

lightswitch wrote...

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

*edited for clarity*

I see nothing wrong with using efficient builds/the best characters/the best weapons. If that's how you want to play the game, go ahead. I'll play the game my way myself. I don't tell people how to play, and you don't tell me how to play. That's how it should be .

The Human Engineer overload damage should be better than the TGI's overload damage for example. Stuff could be balanced easier if skill trees were separated. 

 i.e. BioWare could have nerfed the TGI's stims without touching the Havoc's stims.

QFT.

Agree 100% on all three of these points. Good post.

It would make more sense if:

TC only boost damage from headshot (make more sense than overall damage boost)

Rank 6b of TC will have a unique bonus for each character (Geth Weapon for Geth, Power for Asari, AR for Turian, Sniper Rifle for certain Salarian,...)

Oh no. My Hurricane vs. Harrier thread the other day got completely derailed by a Tac Cloak debate and some ridiculous argument about burst vs. sustained DPS. Not here, not again. Start your own thread, pal.

Actually, don't start your own thread. Just necro one of the hundreds of Tac Cloak nerf threads already in existence.

[blissgirl9]

megabeast37215 wrote...

monkeyhunter wrote...

Some people like a challenge, like dance with brutes or banshees. Then some GI joins, melting everything in 2 seconds. Bye fun, it's like beating up a 5y/o (lol).
Don't respond with something like, play solo if you want a challenge.

Your dancing.... it takes too long. Trying to get paid here....

Leads one to wonder just what you do with all the money you make...and is "fun" necessarily always or ever "honorable"?  

[DullahansXMark]

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

That said, if a lobby has two Ghosts in it, I'm likely bail, for the same reason. I still want some challenge.

I sometimes like to compete with someone if I'm in first or second and the person who is in second/first is right next to me in points. If It's obvious they're trying to outscore me, I also step my game up, too.

Next time you get in one of those lobbies, try to outscore the opposition! Always fun! 

[Dorick]

Matthias King wrote...

Annomander wrote...
The problem with mass effect 3 is this is not the case. Some weapons / characters over perform in under-skilled hands.

When I see someone using something which is blatantly more powerful than what I'm using...then it diminishes my feeling of enjoyment from the game.

This is something about the elitists on this game that I'll never understand.

If we are "elitists" for caring about game balance, does that make everyone else "noobs" for wanting op kits?

I just don't get how its fair to label the users of a fair argument as if  "elitists" changes the nature of those arguments to an inviable argument. TGI, Kroguard, and GI ARE unbalanced. 

[Cyonan]

DullahansXMark wrote...

BjornDaDwarf wrote...

That said, if a lobby has two Ghosts in it, I'm likely bail, for the same reason. I still want some challenge.

I sometimes like to compete with someone if I'm in first or second and the person who is in second/first is right next to me in points. If It's obvious they're trying to outscore me, I also step my game up, too.

Next time you get in one of those lobbies, try to outscore the opposition! Always fun! 

It's really fun to do it to a guy that's trying so hard to come in first, and starts spawn nuking with missiles.

but then you beat him anyway without needing to use a single missile.

[BACON4BREAKFAST]

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

Sgt SuperWae wrote...

Funny thing is, in the fighting game circuit, using a top tier character is mostly recognized as good strategy. Meanwhile, those who condemn others for using such characters, or refuse to use these characters themselves just because they're top tier, are recognized as scrubs.

Check the link, and maybe someone can explain why -- in a co-op game -- this mentality is somehow flipped around.

QFT.

This reminds me of when I was still playing CSS comp, and pubstars were moaning about the AWP (who is a oneshot-onekill weapon no matter where you aim, even with Kevlar, except for the leg) because it's a "noskill" weapon compared to the Scout which needs a clean headshot to OS.

I see nothing wrong with using efficient builds/the best characters/the best weapons. If that's how you want to play the game, go ahead. I'll play the game my way myself. I don't tell people how to play, and you don't tell me how to play. That's how it should be .

PS : I rarely use the TGI/Kroguard myself, but that's because I don't like Turians as a whole and I don't play Krogans .


PS 2 : I can understand Annomander/Feneckus's point of view though, there are a few things which don't make sense. The Human Engineer overload damage should be better than the TGI's overload damage for example. Stuff could be balanced easier if skill trees were separated. 

 i.e. BioWare could have nerfed the TGI's stims without touching the Havoc's stims.

This is more where my point of view comes from as well. I used to be into competitive CSS (not super cereal) but I still played my fair share of scrims. The only time people dont use the most powerful weapons (AWP, M4, AK47) are when the team is low on funds. What usually happens is an "eco" round where the team doesnt buy anything and basically loses a round to be able to buy good weapons and equipment. Sometimes teams will buy low tier weapons (deagle, Famas, Scout, Galil) and try to win although they will be at a disadvantage because of their weaponry.
(also to be nitpicky an AWP is a one-shot kill everywhere except the leg  )

I used OP classes until it became boring and then started venturing into other setups. Then when I switched to PC I used OP classes till I became comfortable with the controls and unlocked enough weapons/classes/equipment to be able to use other setups effectively. I still laugh when I see a TGI rocking a Harrier X and lvl 4 ammo on someone with a BotB banner. But since this isn't PvP competitive I could care less. Also I usually outscore them anyways because easy to use classes can be easily topped using harder classes that have more reward (e.g. Drell Vanguard)

Also agree that the classes that got nerfed because of overuse/overpoweredness of stronger classes really didn't need to be (GE from GI, Turian Havoc from TGI, etc)

Modifié par BACON4BREAKFIST, 17 janvier 2013 - 09:01 .

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

Dorick wrote...

Jay_Hoxtatron wrote...

Dorick wrote...

I have a serious dislike for Kroguard, Turian Ghost, and Geth Infiltrator. Way OP, kind of throws balance out of the game. And its not about when a noob uses that character, its when a decent player does. Like I dont want to play a match with a missile glitcher because it essentially breaks the game, same deal when someone with harrier x on a ghost enters the game. It just cancels the fun for the next 30 minutes.

If you want to feel like you did a great job for your team by scoring well, but can't compete with a crutch kit, makes it feel like that kit needs a nerf. That's all.

Those characters are popular for the same reason the missile glitch is popular.

Haha. In this case, you should also have a serious dislike for lobbies with *every grenade class user*, *every Annihilation Field user*, *every Tactical Cloak user*, *every ARush/Marksman/Devastator Mode user*, * every Reave/Warp user*, because they clear just as fast as a Kroguard/TGI/GI team. Clear time would maybe be 1 min or 2 longer.

But that would be suggesting the Turian Ghost is balanced with the turian engineer, who uses a grenade.
That's a terrible argument. 
A team of four turian ghosts will outperform a team of four havocs, or four saboteurs. This is what I mean by unbalanced.


When I said "crutch kit" i am referring to just these three classes kroguard, turian ghost, and GI. I've played the MP game over 700 hours now, you arent about to convince me these classes are balanced. 

4 TGIs vs 4 Saboteurs.

There would be at most 5 minutes of difference in clear times between those 2 teams. e.g. 15 min clears vs 20 min clears. On Gold/Plat.

Modifié par Jay_Hoxtatron, 17 janvier 2013 - 09:01 .

[Cyonan]

Dorick wrote...

Matthias King wrote...

Annomander wrote...
The problem with mass effect 3 is this is not the case. Some weapons / characters over perform in under-skilled hands.

When I see someone using something which is blatantly more powerful than what I'm using...then it diminishes my feeling of enjoyment from the game.

This is something about the elitists on this game that I'll never understand.

If we are "elitists" for caring about game balance, does that make everyone else "noobs" for wanting op kits?

I just don't get how its fair to label the users of a fair argument as if  "elitists" changes the nature of those arguments to an inviable argument. TGI, Kroguard, and GI ARE unbalanced. 

You're an elitist if you're calling them crutch classes for people who can't play a real class, or are upset because somebody is using an easier to play class to do well.

You can simply call something overpowered without being an elitist. It's more how you respond to the people using it,

[Dorick]

Cyonan wrote...

Elitists get upset when somebody they don't think are that good are using an easier character on the higher difficulties. Apparently this clearly makes them a scrub that can't play a real class.

It was no different in WoW. I remember a guy who got really mad because I was outperforming him as a tank, and he started going off about how Paladin tanks are a crutch class for scrubs who can't play a real tank.

Since I didn't need any gear from the bosses left, I offered to get my Warrior tank, then proceeded to outperform him on that as well, despite losing the gear advantage I had on my Paladin.

Just ignore the people that get upset that something is easier to play and play whatever you feel like.

1st off, this legitametly happens, its why game balance is so important. I play a lot of fighter games and sometimes certain characters are banned from tournies and competitions bc they are unbalanced. 

Second, are you saying the kroguard, TGI, and GI are balanced with the other characters?

[BridgeBurner]

Cyonan wrote...

Elitists get upset when somebody they don't think are that good are using an easier character on the higher difficulties. Apparently this clearly makes them a scrub that can't play a real class.

It was no different in WoW. I remember a guy who got really mad because I was outperforming him as a tank, and he started going off about how Paladin tanks are a crutch class for scrubs who can't play a real tank.

Since I didn't need any gear from the bosses left, I offered to get my Warrior tank, then proceeded to outperform him on that as well, despite losing the gear advantage I had on my Paladin.

Just ignore the people that get upset that something is easier to play and play whatever you feel like.

World of warcraft is governed by too many aspects completely outwith control; gear for one and learning a rotation which will 100% return the same variable DPS as dictated by RNG: from X - Y DPS, each and every time.

Being in a top raiding guild on WoW doesn't take a tremendous level of skill, trust me, I did Ulduar 10 heroics, ICC heroics, and firelands heroic before I quit. WoW is a perfect example however, of why "dumbing" the game down (by adding kroguards, reegars, TGIs etc) is a bad idea. It became impossible for us to find semi-competent players to fill spots in a raid. WoW takes no skill whatsoever, but even then we couldn't get people to play at the required level because blizzard thought making raids easier and showering people in emblems of conquest would make them better players.

It didn't, the same thing happens in ME3. Crutch classes don't make people better players.

[Jay_Hoxtatron]

BACON4BREAKFIST wrote...



This is more where my point of view comes from as well. I used to be into competitive CSS (not super cereal) but I still played my fair share of scrims. The only time people dont use the most powerful weapons (AWP, M4, AK47) are when the team is low on funds. What usually happens is an "eco" round where the team doesnt buy anything and basically loses a round to be able to buy good weapons and equipment. Sometimes teams will buy low tier weapons (deagle, Famas, Scout, Galil) and try to win although they will be at a disadvantage because of their weaponry.


I used OP classes until it became boring and then started venturing into other setups when that became boring. Then when I switched to PC I used OP classes till I became comfortable with the controls and unlocked enough weapons/classes/equipment to be able to use other setups effectively. I still laugh when I see a TGI rocking a Harrier X and lvl 4 ammo on someone with a BotB banner. But since this isn't PvP competitive I could care less. Also I usually outscore them anyways because easy to use classes can be easily topped using harder classes that have more reward (e.g. Drell Vanguard)

Also agree that the classes that got nerfed because of overuse/overpoweredness of stronger classes really didn't need to be (GE from GI, Turian Havoc from TGI, etc)

Ah, dem DECO rounds . 

(also to be nitpicky an AWP is a one-shot kill everywhere except the leg  )

Yeah, that's what I said .

[Matthias King]

Dorick wrote...

Matthias King wrote...

Annomander wrote...
The problem with mass effect 3 is this is not the case. Some weapons / characters over perform in under-skilled hands.

When I see someone using something which is blatantly more powerful than what I'm using...then it diminishes my feeling of enjoyment from the game.

This is something about the elitists on this game that I'll never understand.

If we are "elitists" for caring about game balance, does that make everyone else "noobs" for wanting op kits?

I just don't get how its fair to label the users of a fair argument as if  "elitists" changes the nature of those arguments to an inviable argument. TGI, Kroguard, and GI ARE unbalanced. 

It's because the 'elitists,' as I and others call them, get bent out of shape when 'noobs,' as they call them, play this game in a way that is 'not approved' by the 'elitists.'

The 'elitists' make the claim that if a 'noob' needs to use an 'overpowered' kit or weapon or both to play gold, then they, and I quote, "don't belong in gold."  If the fact that these so-called 'noobs' are able to play gold by using powerful characters and weapons offends the 'elitists' delicate sensibilities, then they desperately need to get a life.

Modifié par Matthias King, 17 janvier 2013 - 09:01 .

[Dorick]

Cyonan wrote...

Dorick wrote...

Matthias King wrote...

Annomander wrote...
The problem with mass effect 3 is this is not the case. Some weapons / characters over perform in under-skilled hands.

When I see someone using something which is blatantly more powerful than what I'm using...then it diminishes my feeling of enjoyment from the game.

This is something about the elitists on this game that I'll never understand.

If we are "elitists" for caring about game balance, does that make everyone else "noobs" for wanting op kits?

I just don't get how its fair to label the users of a fair argument as if  "elitists" changes the nature of those arguments to an inviable argument. TGI, Kroguard, and GI ARE unbalanced. 

You're an elitist if you're calling them crutch classes for people who can't play a real class, or are upset because somebody is using an easier to play class to do well.

You can simply call something overpowered without being an elitist. It's more how you respond to the people using it,

So the term "elitist" is a way to stereotype players who care about game balance?
If I wanted to play a fair game of chess and my opponent had two queens while I had one, am I being a bad sport when i get frustrated for losing, or does the game need to be changed so that each players starts with one queen? 

There's a line between finding a way to blame your performance on the game, and being upset over game balance. In this case the kroguard, TGI, and GI are clearly unbalanced. 

I also find it offensive that people are getting stereotyped for pointing out something that is blatantly true.

I get upset over the kroguard, TGI, and GI the same way I get upset when I missile glitcher is in the game. 

[TehPwnzor52]

Cyonan wrote...

Dorick wrote...

Matthias King wrote...

Annomander wrote...
The problem with mass effect 3 is this is not the case. Some weapons / characters over perform in under-skilled hands.

When I see someone using something which is blatantly more powerful than what I'm using...then it diminishes my feeling of enjoyment from the game.

This is something about the elitists on this game that I'll never understand.

If we are "elitists" for caring about game balance, does that make everyone else "noobs" for wanting op kits?

I just don't get how its fair to label the users of a fair argument as if  "elitists" changes the nature of those arguments to an inviable argument. TGI, Kroguard, and GI ARE unbalanced. 

You're an elitist if you're calling them crutch classes for people who can't play a real class, or are upset because somebody is using an easier to play class to do well.

You can simply call something overpowered without being an elitist. It's more how you respond to the people using it,

This ^
There’s a big difference between making a fair point that
something is OP, and calling it a “crutch” and everyone who uses it must be a
scrub that’s worse than you. Get off your high horses people. If they really
are bad, then you’ll do better than them anyways, so who cares?