390 réponses à ce sujet

[XXIceColdXX]

It was nice for Mike Gamble to stop by the BSN, but when he was here, he didnt really address the main concerns we all feeling at the time.

I suppose the right time for the devs to comment on the BSN would be when they can finally talk openly, as side stepping the tough questions won't help the situation. 

Modifié par XXIceColdXX, 20 janvier 2013 - 06:34 .

[spirosz]

To be honest, I'm still waiting for the Character Section to be opened, if that ever happens, haha.  It would of been interesting to have the writers for specific characters, from either game in the trilogy talk to the specific fans of "x" characters and see how the writers vision intertwined with the way the fans interpreted the character.  

Modifié par spirosz, 20 janvier 2013 - 04:51 .

[Indy_S]

Robosexual wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

I never spoke of the scale of the bloodbath, I believe it wouldn't be as bad as you think but still not as good as I'd want. As to the 'ignoring of answers', we've been over that. Justifications, reflection, critical thought. That's how you get discussions. That's how it's constructive.

Again, the victim mentality isn't as prevalent as you think, but I am aware that it is more prevalent than I'd want.

I don't think we'll come to an agreement on how bad or good it will be. Seeing what I did in this past 10 months, and still seeing lies people make up, and worse, believe (that "Epic" thread is still around) means I don't expect any better than the absolute worst.

But, what would happen if you asked a question, got an answer similar to that Harbinger one, and Bioware then moved on to a different question. How would you react?

Probably, I'd be a little miffed. But that wouldn't come up on the forum. When the discussion of things that were justified dies down, I'd probably ask the question again.

Conversly, how would you react? You want to know a reason for why they did or didn't do something and their answer is 'we didn't want to'?

[drayfish]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

And that's kinda one reason we're at this point, isn't it? Not enough people are really caring about important conversations being locked, or having their feedback threads and criticism threads and like/dislike threads being locked. I think the community should always be working towards more of these kinds of conversations and to work at keeping them open.

Yeah, some converstions just naturally peter out, but we're seeing community members who just don't care about their thread getting locked, because they don't have anything to lose. If that thread gets locked, they'll just move to a different one. They always want the same thing, after all, and it doesn't matter which thread they post it in. I've posted some version of the same explanation of "artistic integrity" in maybe a dozen threads in the last couple of months. And that's because some folks aren't seeking out the good discussions and contributing to them. Some folks just care about being right, or being mollified.

I've stayed in this discussion partly because I feel I can do some good here. I can start the conversation about working towards a better community, of having more unified overall goals even when everyone has different opinions, and in showing BioWare that the BSN is the place to go if you want to get sophisticated, detailed, honest feedback on BioWare and BioWare games. I can start that conversation, but only you guys (and girls) can continue it beyond this thread and in the community at large.

Heck, we used to have a whole bunch of people who were happy to help keep an eye on things and report trouble to Moderators and encourage others to behave in threads. Those people led by example, and they were so well regarded that some of them became community Moderators and are still with the BioWare online community today.

How are we supposed to keep threads open? I've experienced it more than once that what I'd consider a good thread with an interesting discussion got locked because some people behaved badly (and/or because a mod decided the discussion was over for other reasons). What am I to do about such things? Obviously the mods who closed down such a thread saw what was happpening and decided that locking it down was the best way to handle it. There's little I see we can do about it. Sure, I can tell people to act like the adults they're supposed to be, but what if they don't? The people that'd actually listen to such good advice usually aren't the ones that need it/the ones causing trouble.

So what are we realistically supposed to do against lockdowns resulting from the inevitable appearance of dedicated troublemakers or the behaviour of those who just don't care? Cause this punishes those really interested in constructive dialogue.

I would very much like to second these questions - but would like to add a little more of a pointed inquiry to the moderators, and the role that they play in allowing/discouraging legitimate debate.

I have personally witnessed a discouraging amount of arbitrary shutdowns of still healthy and civil discussion by moderators who offered no explaination further than a 'This conversation is over', or a 'LOCKDOWN!' - mods who even went so far as to delete all evidence of these threads after the fact.

And you are well aware of such examples, Stan, as I have PMed you on a couple of these instances to ask the reasoning for such silencing.  (A form of questioning that you now seem to be lamenting people should do more?)

How exactly does such caring and consideration, such fostering of the respectful free exchange of debate, have the opportunity to return to this forum when whole topics can be censored (like IT, or Bioware pre-release promises), and threads like 3DandBeyond's 'One Last Plea...' get slammed shut with little to no explaination?

Indeed, I am finding it utterly disengenuous (and borderline insulting) to pretend that these boards are trembling under the shadow of a rabid few who make discourse impossible by forcing the hand of moderators - that it is this toxic atmosphere alone that continues to frighten away the Bioware staff from contributing.  Yes, there is much unhelpful cynicism and spite (on all sides), but there are also far too many instances of strangled discussion, and topics banned, ignored and disappeared utterly, for this to all be solely the fault of disgruntled fans who are shouting down the audience that genuinely does want to participate in an open dialogue. 

To me, Stan, this rings rather false, and seems more like blame shifting, patronisingly shaking your head at the fanbase as a whole in order to excuse the complete silence that has marked Bioware's response to a fanbase that (even at it's most ugly) is frequently just looking (and failing) to feel heard.

[Clayless]

I'll create an example for you then.

Say I asked why they never gave Liara all the things she does in the leak (they gave a lot of it to Traynor) and their answer was "We didn't want to" then I'd ask why they decided to give it to Traynor.

Unlike most people here who would create a meme and screech about being abused or something.

[Necrotron]

Grubas wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Most people wouldn't be able to converse with Bioware here OP. They would ask them a question, Bioware would answer, it wouldn't be the answer they wanted to hear so they would ignore it and/or turn it into a meme that they can use for the next (10 months at least so far) and/or attack and belittle Bioware.

This is a terrible excuse. 
Just have a look at the DA3 board. 

There is another reason. They know they screwed, but instead to come forward...

Seriously! Where are the devs of ME3? Fans are seeking a dialog since the game came out, and all we got til today are some blank PR-statements, screened questions and a fake interview. 

Honestly, I think a lot of people would just like a little of 'why did they go this route with the ending' or 'what were they trying to communicate' answered.  There has been practically zero communication from the writers in the wake of everything that has gone on for the months and months after the release of ME3.

I still want to know what in the world they were going for, and am curious why certain symbolisms were put in etc. etc.  I wonder if we'll ever see an interview or dialogue from the author anywhere down the line.

Modifié par Bathaius, 20 janvier 2013 - 05:04 .

[Indy_S]

That's a very civil answer. I feel my answer was civil as well. Neither of us would result to memes and screeches. I would probably ask a follow-up as well, if the original question allowed. 'Do you feel giving the information to Traynor over Liara is misrepresenting or undercutting the Shadow Broker's role in the war?' That's a question I'd be interested to see the answer to.

[dreamgazer]

Robosexual wrote...

I'll create an example for you then.

Say I asked why they never gave Liara all the things she does in the leak (they gave a lot of it to Traynor) and their answer was "We didn't want to" then I'd ask why they decided to give it to Traynor.

Unlike most people here who would create a meme and screech about being abused or something.

I don't think people are going to want to chat about that kind of thing, Robo. 

They want blood for "war crimes", "diversion from the themes", and "ambiguity isn't closure", as well as the "A, B, C" interview quote.  The subjects are much touchier. 

[Indy_S]

Fans also want answers to questions brought up in other parts of the game, dreamgazer. BioWare addressing the issues you spoke of is a part of the discussion we want, but not the sum total.

[dreamgazer]

Indy_S wrote...

Fans also want answers to questions brought up in other parts of the game, dreamgazer. BioWare addressing the issues you spoke of is a part of the discussion we want, but not the sum total.

I'm aware, but that'll be a big focus.  Those are the topics that (still) get the anger flowing.

The rest is frustrating narrative infrastructure that can be more systematically handled.

[Clayless]

Indy_S wrote...

That's a very civil answer. I feel my answer was civil as well. Neither of us would result to memes and screeches. I would probably ask a follow-up as well, if the original question allowed. 'Do you feel giving the information to Traynor over Liara is misrepresenting or undercutting the Shadow Broker's role in the war?' That's a question I'd be interested to see the answer to.

I wouldn't ask that, as we can basically guess the the answer (most likely something about the Shadow Broker doing other things) instead I would probably tell them that I felt like it undermined Liara's character to an extent, as she misses some pretty important things you think she would know about (pretty much information on Shepards ME2 crew), assuming the answer as to why Traynor got to do everything was rather lackluster.

But

Then I would move on, thank them for answering, and ask a different question. I would also tell them my opinion on the situation with no malice, I asked a question and got the answer to it, even if I (possibly) didn't like the reasons behind it, but I would be happy none the less. That's how discussions work. The sad fact is a lot of people on BSN would most likely dismiss the answer, ask the same question again, then try and pretend they're being ignored or abused in some way. I enjoy learning about the behind-the-scenes thought process, which is why I bought the artbook, but it appears most people here just want to see Bioware "admiting their mistakes" or "apologising" and then see changes to ME3 because of that.

One example I could use is Lost. The two lead writers of that, Damon Lindelof and Carlton Cuse, would make a podcast every week discussing the episode and taking an array of fan questions. Pretty much every week they would get asked about big mysteries that they obviously weren't going to answer, so they would avoid the question with humour a lot of the time. Sometimes they would admit mistakes on nitpicky things fans noticed ("Why does the Royal Scots poster in the flashback say "Honor" and not "Honour"?), sometimes they would even slightly mock the people that asked them questions by trying to guess how much posts they made off of their forum name alone, but it was always in good fun. Fans never complained because the writers were actually having a discussion with them, and the writers listened to fans (Lost is full of references and nods towards the hardcore fans) just like Mass Effect (Calibrating jokes, Conrad Verner) and there was never any malice behind anything on both sides.

As much as I would love things like that to happen here, for Bioware to be part of the comunity and have fun with us whilst answering questions, it can't because:

dreamgazer wrote...

I don't think people are going to want to chat about that kind of thing, Robo. 

They want blood for "war crimes", "diversion from the themes", and "ambiguity isn't closure", as well as the "A, B, C" interview quote.  The subjects are much touchier. 

People simply don't want to chat. They pretend they're victims and Bioware is some big bad EA puppet whose sole purpose is to spit on the fans. Anything, absolutely anything, Bioware says is used against them in some way. Because of this delusional mentality I don't get to have discussions with Bioware. I don't get to ask them about Liara's role in the story, or even touchier things like Cerberus doing certain things for seemingly no reason. But I don't try and pretend this is Biowares fault. This lack of communication, this contempt we fans hold for each other, is caused by the people that demand Bioware to apologise to them. If you want Bioware's communication, the first step is stamping out those people.

tl;dr Bioware doesn't communicate because of a lot of the fans.

Modifié par Robosexual, 20 janvier 2013 - 06:28 .

[Indy_S]

And a lot of the fans don't communicate well because BioWare doesn't at all. It's a Catch 22 and honestly, I can't see the fans making the first move to correct it.

We both would do the same thing when it comes to actually talking to the developers. I'm kind of glad for that. We're the kind of people they'd want to talk to.

Establishing a working relationship between developers and fans will take time. But as long as they look without speaking, we don't know if they're listening. We require confirmation through action. And putting a reference in the next game isn't quite the same as talking to us. It lacks immediacy. The Lost podcast you mentioned happened after every episode. That's immediate. And that's what we want.

[EnvyTB075]

Its a two way street. The vast majority of the truly amazing posts have been weighed down by so much of the usual "you're just an entitled whiner" **** that no one truly sees the point in opening good and logical discussion anymore as both sides of the community have been conditioned to reply with snark and wit, and BioWare to PR speak in which nothing worth mentioning is ever...well, mentioned.

[Clayless]

Indy_S wrote...

And a lot of the fans don't communicate well because BioWare doesn't at all. It's a Catch 22 and honestly, I can't see the fans making the first move to correct it.

We both would do the same thing when it comes to actually talking to the developers. I'm kind of glad for that. We're the kind of people they'd want to talk to.

Establishing a working relationship between developers and fans will take time. But as long as they look without speaking, we don't know if they're listening. We require confirmation through action. And putting a reference in the next game isn't quite the same as talking to us. It lacks immediacy. The Lost podcast you mentioned happened after every episode. That's immediate. And that's what we want.

My hope is that it'll happen after the next story (and unfortunately last by the looks of it) DLC is released. Once that happens hopefully the people that lurk on these parts, with the sole purpose of loudly declaring they're not buying DLC until it gives them exactly what they want, will leave. These people tend to be the ones that don't care about discussions.

Of course I would want it to happen sooner but I doubt it will. I, and many others, are still passionate about Mass Effect and just want to share ideas (even things like future DLC outfits, just look at the size of that thread for example) and talk about the game in general with Bioware. It's just that there's far too much people who do nothing but derail threads into something about the ending and slander Bioware at every chance they get.

The thing that makes me uncertain these people will leave is statements like "How will Bioware learn if they're just surrounded by praise". These people convince themselves that those of us that don't hate Bioware wont give constructive criticism, and some even manage to convince themselves that we're not "true" fans because we, god forbid, buy DLC.

So effectively me and you both want the same thing, and apparently will respond the same way if given the chance to have discussions with Bioware, it's just that many others are stopping that from happening. I challenge these people and call them out on their actions all the time, it's just that, as seen from that "Epic" thread, it mostly falls on deaf ears. Unfortunately the same thing will happen if Bioware tries to have discussions with these people around.

Modifié par Robosexual, 20 janvier 2013 - 07:27 .

[Indy_S]

I'll agree to that. I just think BioWare should make the first move.

[N7Keller]

kotaku.com/5974623/the-lead-writer-of-dragon-age-largely-avoids-biowares-increasingly-toxic-forums

Just read what he has to say. I agree 100% with him. If I worked at Bioware I would avoid BSN like the plauge.

[Clayless]

Indy_S wrote...

I'll agree to that. I just think BioWare should make the first move.

If they did, would you try and help put a stop to the people who do everything they can to sabotage it? If you saw Bioware being attacked unfairly, would you call out the people that are doing it?

norcalgamer wrote...

kotaku.com/5974623/the-lead-writer-of-dragon-age-largely-avoids-biowares-increasingly-toxic-forums

Just read what he has to say. I agree 100% with him. If I worked at Bioware I would avoid BSN like the plauge.

The annoying thing is that quote is already being used against the Mass Effect team.

EDIT:

But actually, looking at the person who made a comment with a similar mindset to a lot of people on BSN seems to have attracted almost universal criticism against him. Look at all the replies he got, they're just agreeing that BSN is toxic and the screeching that takes place here isn't constructive.

If Bioware starts discussions again I hope those sort of people will return.

Modifié par Robosexual, 20 janvier 2013 - 08:28 .

[Indy_S]

Sure, I'll join in the fight against destructive comments.

[SpamBot2000]

Look, BW made a game with widely different endings based on a choice. Now that choice is making the whole series unplayable for many people who happen to love Mass Effect. If it's OK to have all these different end states, how come it's not OK to simply implement another ending? It might not take all that much resources after all, since modders can come up with acceptable endings that just need some polish, for this apparently very mod-unfriendly game.

Letting BioWare know what kind of an ending would make the ME series playable again would seem to be the definition of "constructive criticism". But the likes of Robosexual are all over any attempts at this constructive communication, determined to tear down any and all attempts at it with malicious "screeching" about people making such suggestions having rabies. Somehow it seems that the concept of constructive is misapplied on BSN. What some people are calling for is the construction of worship, instead of the construction of a better game.

Sure, people ought to be given credit for doing a good job, and most of BioWare did so with Mass Effect. Unfortunately appreciation of this gets overshadowed by the hurt it inflicted. Isn't it about time this hurt was addressed with a bit of construction, in order for an appreciation of the genuinely great things in ME3 to be emotionally accessible for many of us again?

Modifié par SpamBot2000, 20 janvier 2013 - 09:37 .

[78stonewobble]

To be honest I, personally, dont need to have developers, storywriters and what not sit here and explain themselves. They can lurk if they're curious.

Forums are rather direct line to customers and "fans" so they do have their use. They shouldn't be taken at face value or their importance blown out of proportion but used to become an asset to the company.

To gauge what customers/fans perceive as good and bad and pass that on.

Send on good ideas, suggestions and what not. Maybe even ideas that everyone dislikes to say: Oh we shouldn't do THAT.

A pr rep of sorts should be able to do that and also give that person a bit of power to do small things.

Eg. Personally I'd have preferred Tali's picture being a good fanmade one voted on in a competition here. Couldn't have cost more than a free game to the winner or something and it would have been hard to argue against: "well you guys picked it yourselves". Imho that was a get out of jail freecard on that one.

[Indy_S]

What we are asking for is a constructive discussion with the developers about the game so that we can try to understand their mindset and affect the next game they produce. We want them to think about their choices from many more perspectives, to challenge them with varying ideas and altering the mindset during the creative process.

A demand to improve this game, however, is a different matter. It doesn't seek understanding and it doesn't encourage thought in the next project. DLC costs money that BioWare may be unwilling to produce. Any fix to one aspect of it might warrant complaints. A reunion scene, for instance, would require the recall of many voice actors, particularly if a reunion with a love interest is intended. What if it's not as good as it's intended? Will you or others ask for further DLC to fix *that*? If you are willing to use mods, then I'm afraid that is what you'll have to do.

I find the end of this game incredibly poor and that opinion didn't change with the release of the Extended Cut. It probably will remain incredibly poor and we'll have to live with that. But we can encourage the next game to be better so that's what we'll do.

[Clayless]

SpamBot2000 wrote...

Look, BW made a game with widely different endings based on a choice. Now that choice is making the whole series unplayable for many people who happen to love Mass Effect. If it's OK to have all these different end states, how come it's not OK to simply implement another ending? It might not take all that much resources after all, since modders can come up with acceptable endings that just need some polish, for this apparently very mod-unfriendly game.

Letting BioWare know what kind of an ending would make the ME series playable again would seem to be the definition of "constructive criticism". But the likes of Robosexual are all over any attempts at this constructive communication, determined to tear down any and all attempts at it with malicious "screeching" about people making such suggestions having rabies. Somehow it seems that the concept of constructive is misapplied on BSN. What some people are calling for is the construction of worship, instead of the construction of a better game.

Sure, people ought to be given credit for doing a good job, and most of BioWare did so with Mass Effect. Unfortunately appreciation of this gets overshadowed by the hurt it inflicted. Isn't it about time this hurt was addressed with a bit of construction, in order for an appreciation of the genuinely great things in ME3 to be emotionally accessible for many of us again?

That's not a constructive discussion, you just want to demand Bioware make a new ending.

Also I managed to track down this "rabies" quote you seem to think I said.

It could only be described as rabid.

Rabid:

Raging; uncontrollable: rabid thirst
Extremely zealous or enthusiastic; fanatical: a rabid football fan

I never called you out on it before because I assume you're not a native English speaker.

Modifié par Robosexual, 20 janvier 2013 - 10:50 .

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

You know alot of the problems on this forum could easily be solved by proper communication, but as it stands things are mostly just a one way street.
I can understand why alot of members become frustrated, and frustration often leads to anger. There has been alot of constructive criticism already on this forum and it has gone largely unnoticed, so people resort to images and gifs to get attention.
It really is all down to communication not to mention the information we got before the games release that proved to be false.

[Indy_S]

DinoSteve wrote...

It really is all down to communication not to mention the information we got before the games release that proved to be false.

This part isn't that constructive. I would like BioWare to explain the information we were given but inferring that they lied in the information is not an invitation to talk.

[Giga Drill BREAKER]

Well is the statement there are no A B C endings not false? and how is asking them to clarify that statement not constructive? I am not shouting, posting images or posting statements full of bile, I would just like the statement clarified that is it, and that is just one example of information we were given before hand that proved not to be true.