390 réponses à ce sujet

[SimonTheFrog]

Paulomedi wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Grubas wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

I'm just pointing out the difference between here and the multiplayer section that's all.

I am more optimistic than I was a few days ago, but I still think we'll have to wait until after the final DLC is released so a lot of mindless haters will leave.

Mindless hater?
If you said complains, i would point out all the collected complains about nerf/buff/Lag/server down etc.. that are coming up regularly on that board.

They would turn the forum into a truly toxic environment, if not for the presence of actual developers posting and taking feedback into account.

With respect to Stan, but he isnt even employed by bw. Everything he says is just his opinion.

Without developer feedback I'd say people would just get bored and leave, seeing no point in complaining about gameplay elements they don't need to care about.

This section on the other hand is full of mindless hatred aimed towards Bioware. Just read that long post above, it boils down to disagreeing with reviewers because of different real life morals compared to a piece of escapism, and hatred towards Bioware because of it.

Reading that post has made me cynical again. If Bioware did come to answer questions, would it actually be constructive questions, or full of people demanding that Bioware explain said persons own subjective feelings to them?

Hate is a powerful word. Be careful using it.

Drayfish's post never mentions hate. Just disapointment towards BW's game and actions, and horror towards the message the ending conveys.

They don't need to explain anything. But expect some of us to disagree with them and be vocal about it.

The part about different real life morals compared to a piece of escapism: It happens to be a very, VERY dangerous moral (genocide, eugenics, slavery) conveyed to MILLIONS of young people.

Hahahaha no... I'm sorry but that is not really an issue I think.
That kid part i mean.

The ending cards show happy people. Kids will just press any of the A,B,C-button and see that the reapers are not a threat anymore and that people are happy.

All the horrible stuff Drayfish mentions is something that only deeper reflection will show. Which even most of the BSN readers never cared to do. If they would have the 'storm would have been even bigger.
Many people were just craving a more heroic and triumphant ending and got that with the EC. The horrendous morality only disturbed a very minor group of more observant players.

[Seboist]

Grubas wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

That's different, in multiplayer people have a point, very rarely do people have a point here beyond "Change the ending".

If Bioware says anything it's turned into a meme, and the hatred is vicious and aimed towards Bioware rather than towards certain gameplay elements.

Sorry but i disagree. We have had an entire subsection purely dedicated to romance. And though its closed now, it has been contained in subgroups. 

There is more then enough interest to disscus other aspects of the game. 

Considering material like this that is for the best.

[Iakus]

Robosexual wrote...

I'm just pointing out the difference between here and the multiplayer section that's all.

I am more optimistic than I was a few days ago, but I still think we'll have to wait until after the final DLC is released so a lot of mindless haters will leave.

Yeah this is exactly the sort of attitude that's not constructive

[Oni Changas]

ZLurps wrote
[snip]

Bull****. The complaint threads are small in quantity and almost always have legit issues and suggestions. Don't bring that crap logic over there. There aren't any "we don't have the money" replies from the team, and the amount of "BioWare" logos under thread titles are not only staggering but welcoming as well. As I said, day and night difference; it's easy to see why.

[78stonewobble]

dea_ex_machina wrote...
I agree. In order to have a well-balanced discussion about a game that you can actually draw something productive from, it's important to see and hear both sides and draw your own conclusions from that. After all, forming an opinion about something is a very collaborative act and done better in a balanced environment rather than a vacuum, or, which would be even worse, an environment that is utterly one-sided. Imo, only then can discussions and feedback get really productive and constructive - when both sides are taken into account, no matter how much you personally disagree with something and no matter what exactly is criticized about the game, the comany's behavior, etc.
I'm not saying valid complaints and dissatisfaction justify bad behavior. Discussions and feedback can only be helpful and constructive when brought forth in the respective manner and there's something of substance to be found in the arguments. Phrases like "OMG ME3 sucks!" may be more destructive than phrases like "OMG, ME3 best game evar!", which might be good for morale, but ultimately, none of them is construcive or really helpful.

I'd say you can still gain a bit of knowledge from both of the (not thoroughly explained) likes and dislikes.

Obviously if eg. 80 percent (of a population) says something sucks or is best evar, you can still draw some conclusions from that.

You can't directly from that conclude what you did good/bad but, atleast in the bad scenario, it is a reason for pause and reflection.

From there you can then collect more information, change the course or continue forward.

[Clayless]

Paulomedi wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Without developer feedback I'd say people would just get bored and leave, seeing no point in complaining about gameplay elements they don't need to care about.

This section on the other hand is full of mindless hatred aimed towards Bioware. Just read that long post above, it boils down to disagreeing with reviewers because of different real life morals compared to a piece of escapism, and hatred towards Bioware because of it.

Reading that post has made me cynical again. If Bioware did come to answer questions, would it actually be constructive questions, or full of people demanding that Bioware explain said persons own subjective feelings to them?

Hate is a powerful word. Be careful using it.

Drayfish's post never mentions hate. Just disapointment towards BW's game and actions, and horror towards the message the ending conveys.

They don't need to explain anything. But expect some of us to disagree with them and be vocal about it.

The part about different real life morals compared to a piece of escapism: It happens to be a very, VERY dangerous moral (genocide, eugenics, slavery) conveyed to MILLIONS of young people.

Hate is a strong word, which is why I'm using it, a lot of people simply display mindless hatred. Check that video someone linked on this page (or the previous), one boy is disappointed, then his brother uses hatred to rile him up more, and the video ends with him just about to proceed to rile him up even more.

Even Drayfish attempts to spread misinformation. For example he calls the Catalyst a deus ex machina, which simply isn't true. He goes on to talk about how his morals are different from Biowares "hateful" message and various other subjective viewpoints detailing his disgust with Bioware. Apparently, he's being held up as a good representation, which is why that's sparked my cynicism again.

Modifié par Robosexual, 21 janvier 2013 - 04:02 .

[Grubas]

Robosexual wrote...

Without developer feedback I'd say people would just get bored and leave, seeing no point in complaining about gameplay elements they don't need to care about.

This section on the other hand is full of mindless hatred aimed towards Bioware. Just read that long post above, it boils down to disagreeing with reviewers because of different real life morals compared to a piece of escapism, and hatred towards Bioware because of it.

Reading that post has made me cynical again. If Bioware did come to answer questions, would it actually be constructive questions, or full of people demanding that Bioware explain said persons own subjective feelings to them?

The poster made a thoughtout post, and presented clearly some of the aspects he would like to speak with devs. about. He also explained why.
Its simply an offer. An invitation.
 
You see cynical or not, you have to live with it. 

 

 

[ZLurps]

OniTYME wrote...

ZLurps wrote
[snip]

Bull****. The complaint threads are small in quantity and almost always have legit issues and suggestions. Don't bring that crap logic over there. There aren't any "we don't have the money" replies from the team, and the amount of "BioWare" logos under thread titles are not only staggering but welcoming as well. As I said, day and night difference; it's easy to see why.

Try again after you have learned how to read.

[78stonewobble]

Robosexual wrote...
Hate is a strong word, which is why I'm using it, a lot of people simply display mindless hatred. Check that video someone linked on this page (or the previous), one boy is disappointed, then his brother uses hatred to rile him up more, and the video ends with him just about to proceed to rile him up even more.

Even Drayfish attempts to spread misinformation. For example he calls the Catalyst a deus ex machina, which simply isn't true. He goes on to talk about how his morals are different from Biowares "hateful" message and various other subjective viewpoints detailing his disgust with Bioware. Apparently, he's being held up as a good representation, which is why that's sparked my cynicism again.

Sorry about doing this, but this is an example of how not to receive critique constructively.

The critique is deconstructed to find relevant or even irrelevant errors that is being used to dismiss the critique in its entirety.

It is a defensive "counter attack".

It is not being used constructively as a means of self improvement. Where you would ask eg:

Why does that person view the catalyst as an deus ex?
Did other people view the catalyst in the same way?
Did I overdo the catalyst?
Could I have made the catalyst differently so this didn't happen?

Which are much more relevant questions than whether the catalyst is technically a deus ex machina.

Even IF you come to the conclusion that you were right all along and the other person was incorrect.



Bioware can't magically get "better" customers. What they can change is what they send out to the customers and how they interact with them.

[ZLurps]

78stonewobble wrote...

Sorry about doing this, but this is an example of how not to receive critique constructively.

The critique is deconstructed to find relevant or even irrelevant errors that is being used to dismiss the critique in its entirety.

It is a defensive "counter attack".

It is not being used constructively as a means of self improvement. Where you would ask eg:

Why does that person view the catalyst as an deus ex?
Did other people view the catalyst in the same way?
Did I overdo the catalyst?
Could I have made the catalyst differently so this didn't happen?

Which are much more relevant questions than whether the catalyst is technically a deus ex machina.

Even IF you come to the conclusion that you were right all along and the other person was incorrect.



Bioware can't magically get "better" customers. What they can change is what they send out to the customers and how they interact with them.

+1

[Clayless]

78stonewobble wrote...

Sorry about doing this, but this is an example of how not to receive critique constructively.

The critique is deconstructed to find relevant or even irrelevant errors that is being used to dismiss the critique in its entirety.

It is a defensive "counter attack".

It is not being used constructively as a means of self improvement. Where you would ask eg:

Why does that person view the catalyst as an deus ex?
Did other people view the catalyst in the same way?
Did I overdo the catalyst?
Could I have made the catalyst differently so this didn't happen?

Which are much more relevant questions than whether the catalyst is technically a deus ex machina.

Even IF you come to the conclusion that you were right all along and the other person was incorrect.


Bioware can't magically get "better" customers. What they can change is what they send out to the customers and how they interact with them.

Thing is most people just ignore it when they're told the Catalyst isn't a DEM. Many a time I've pointed this out and people simply ignore it, unwilling to listen to reason if it's counter to their opinions. The same would happen if Bioware tries to explain it, except with memes being created and people demanding they change it.

People don't say the Catalyst is a DEM because they want to discover if it actually is, they say it because they want Bioware to change it.

Modifié par Robosexual, 21 janvier 2013 - 04:40 .

[Caprea]

78stonewobble wrote...

Bioware can't magically get
"better" customers. What they can change is what they send out to the
customers and how they interact with them.

Second this!

Robosexual wrote...

[...]

This section on the other hand is full of mindless hatred aimed towards Bioware. Just read that long post above, it boils down to disagreeing with reviewers because of different real life morals compared to a piece of escapism, and hatred towards Bioware because of it.

Reading that post has made me cynical again. If Bioware did come to answer questions, would it actually be constructive questions, or full of people demanding that Bioware explain said persons own subjective feelings to them?

"Mindless hate" assumes that people "hate" BioWare just for the hell of it, but as far as I've seen, that doesn't have to be the case. Because I've seen very legitimate and reflected complaints around here, which were brought forward in a respectful and thoughtful manner. And even if there are people who do nothing but **** and moan and don't express their complaints in a productive way, doesn't mean they "hate" just for the lulz, but just don't phrase their complaints properly. Just because you don't express your concerns in a long-winded speech, doesn't mean you don't have legitimate complaints. Having them is one thing, expressing them properly another.
From the general tone, though, you can see that people are dissatisfied. Not all of them are going to say why they're dissatisfied, but a developer/ publisher is also, to a certain extent, the creator of their own fanbase which they influence and shape with their actions, decisions and interaction (or lack thereof). A certain action (good or bad) leads to a certain response. Cause and effect. It's that simple.
BioWare staff don't have to engage in conversation with their fans and much less, they don't have to explain or even justify anything when it comes to subjective issues, I agree with that. On the other hand, if they don't engage with their fanbase and don't face up to their feedback, the "mindless hate", as you put it, will continue: Many people shout and bang plates together so loudly because they have the feeling that BioWare don't communicate with them - genuinely and on eye level. They have released a few statements here and there, but their lack of presence here and productive debates with their fans makes it pretty clear, at least in my opinion, that there is no such thing as genuine interaction on eye level here. I understand why they've been in siege mode for quite a while now, burrying their heads in the sand certainly doesn't solve anything; if anything, it only makes matters worse and fuels the fans' frustration. And I don't know whether they've sincerely tried communicating with their fans before, but I have the feeling that if they truly engaged with their fanbase and had one productive discussion with them or the other, it'd make things better because it shows that they care. Sure, it is a tough situation for them and I can understand why they keep their fans at a distance, but like I said, the fanbase they create with their actions and decisions is their doing, too, not only their fans'. They can feel responsible and face the people and their complaints and try to make the best of the current situation, even though it's tough. Or they can keep avoiding them and don't even let something like a dialog on eye level come about, which would certainly not improve things. Would, on the other hand, a dialog? We don't know that, but would it hurt to try?
(Btw, I don't know if something like that happened already; if it did and you can tell me how you experienced it, I might eat my words... But yeah, I'd like to see something like that happen, nonetheless.)
Like I said, it's not about justification or defending yourself because you have the feeling you must, it's about a genuine conversation on eye level.

Modifié par dea_ex_machina, 21 janvier 2013 - 04:50 .

[78stonewobble]

Robosexual wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

Sorry about doing this, but this is an example of how not to receive critique constructively.

The critique is deconstructed to find relevant or even irrelevant errors that is being used to dismiss the critique in its entirety.

It is a defensive "counter attack".

It is not being used constructively as a means of self improvement. Where you would ask eg:

Why does that person view the catalyst as an deus ex?
Did other people view the catalyst in the same way?
Did I overdo the catalyst?
Could I have made the catalyst differently so this didn't happen?

Which are much more relevant questions than whether the catalyst is technically a deus ex machina.

Even IF you come to the conclusion that you were right all along and the other person was incorrect.


Bioware can't magically get "better" customers. What they can change is what they send out to the customers and how they interact with them.

Thing is most people just ignore it when they're told the Catalyst isn't a DEM. Many a time I've pointed this out and people simply ignore it, unwilling to listen to reason if it's counter to their opinions. The same would happen if Bioware tries to explain it, except with memes being created and people demanding they change it.

People don't say the Catalyst is a DEM because they want to discover if it actually is, they say it because they want Bioware to change it.

That may be.

In my humble oppinion that, however, isn't the crux of the "problem". It doesn't matter whether the catalyst is technically a deus ex machina or not.

The question there is:

Considering that xyz amount of people view the catalyst as a deus ex machina was he/it overdone?

With sub questions pertaining to the % people disliking to all and how much they disliked it.



It's about finding the core of a perceived problem. Then judging it's impact and severity and only then making a decision on what to do about it.

You can ignore it. If it's a small problem or will become irrelevant or what not.



PS: I'm not perfect at this. Faaaar from it. I'm as defensive and mean as the next one from time to time. I made a discussion over oatmeal into a dealbreaker in a relationship once.

But when when we are at our best this is how it should be.


PPS: I think I've said something similar earlier.

Bioware doesn't owe me anything. Except a working disc and stuff in that legal technical category.

Bioware owes themselves to go on knowing what they did good/bad and learn from both.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 21 janvier 2013 - 05:12 .

[NM_Che56]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

So it's been almost a year since release, and many of us have different complaints when it comes to what they wanted to see in ME3, and what they want to see in future DLC.

But so far, the most common complaints are:

1- Lack of proper closure in endings.

2- Lack of Harbringer and collectors.

3- Better handling of ME2 character and possibly additional squadmates.

4- Lack of hub worlds

I've been seeing these complaints more than any others. People have been discussing these issues more than any others. There are some people that go off the wire and end up being more really immature and uncivil. But there have been a lot of constructive discussions about these as well.

But the problem is that to me, Bioware seems to be completely apathetic about these issues. They repeatedly stated that they don't want to provide anymore closure for the endings. I'm pretty sure they said that they have no plans to add additional hub worlds and squadmates. Nor do they seem to have interest in the ME2 characters along with Harbringer and the collectors.

So my question is not just to bioware but to everyone, what's left to talk about here? We're being asked by bioware to have "constructive" discussions about these issues, yet how can any of this be remotely constructive if the other side has a lack of enthusiasm and interest for those topics in the first place?

And to Bioware? What exactly do you want us to do in these forums? Because all that's left is people repeating the same things from the very beginning, along with people providing positive and negative constructive criticism that really hasn't been addressed in any way yet.

I think they called for constructive FEEDBACK or criticism...not "discussions". 

Maybe they'll do some pre-ending stuff in the next DLC that addresses these issues to some degree.

Maybe...

[78stonewobble]

Seboist wrote...

Considering material like this that is for the best.

*weird tali sweat post*

Also this is so far out I find it funny.

Still if people want to go into detail with stuff like that I've got no problem with it. I don't have to read it.



But that was a side comment.

[Clayless]

78stonewobble wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Thing is most people just ignore it when they're told the Catalyst isn't a DEM. Many a time I've pointed this out and people simply ignore it, unwilling to listen to reason if it's counter to their opinions. The same would happen if Bioware tries to explain it, except with memes being created and people demanding they change it.

People don't say the Catalyst is a DEM because they want to discover if it actually is, they say it because they want Bioware to change it.

That may be.

In my humble oppinion that, however, isn't the crux of the "problem". It doesn't matter whether the catalyst is technically a deus ex machina or not.

The question there is:

Considering that xyz amount of people view the catalyst as a deus ex machina was he/it overdone?

With sub questions pertaining to the % people disliking to all and how much they disliked it.

It's about finding the core of a perceived problem. Then judging it's impact and severity and only then making a decision on what to do about it.

You can ignore it. If it's a small problem or will become irrelevant or what not.

PS: I'm not perfect at this. Faaaar from it. I'm as defensive and mean as the next one from time to time. I made a discussion over oatmeal into a dealbreaker in a relationship once.

But when when we are at our best this is how it should be.

That, right there, is the problem.

A lot of people will say the ending is the problem, though there's no clear reason as to why (Drayfish says because it disagree's with his real life morals, that video you linked was because he percieved there to be Adam & Eve symbolism in the Control ending, his brother because he thinks he achieved nothing by playing a video game, some people because they never got blue babies, and so on). The only thing to do about that problem is to change the ending to fit all these complaints, but Bioware aren't going to do that, so those people will complain about Bioware not listening to them and will create memes out of it. Same with the Catalyst, even if Bioware finds out the core of the problem they're not changing the ending.

I guess I'll help explain my mindset more on the mindless hater comment.

10 months ago my friend completed the game. I was up rather early and he asked me if I had completed it, I said yeah, and he said he hated it so I asked why. While I can't remember exactly what he said I quickly noticed there were a few mistakes in what he was saying, so I tried to explain it to him but he simply dismissed it and got more enraged, listing memes from the Internet, which I called him out on. Like that video you linked where the brother had the sole intention of turning disappointment into hated, his disappointment was turned into hatred by other people spreading misinformation and memes.

We talked about Mass Effect twice after that. When the EC was released, I tried showing him the control ending but he told me to turn it off because it made him angry, and about a week ago when he said to me that he's going to play ME3 again but he's not downloading the EC or getting Leviathan or Omega because " ****ing Bioware's not getting my money", and he's going to stop before the end of the game. Despite the fact that we play multiplayer at least 3 days a week we simply don't talk about anything to do with the story.

Now you see people on BSN with that mindset. Far too much people here loudly proclaim how they're not getting any DLC and how they've not touched the game, and probably never will, until Bioware changes the ending. That's not constructive, that's not going to solve anything, and no amount of reason will be able to change their mindset. It's simply mindless hatred. If Bioware comes here to discuss the game they're just going to be bombarded with people like that. To those people the core of the problem is the ending, and the only thing Bioware can do about it is change the end.

[Massa FX]

More hub worlds makes no sense. Its a Reaper invasion, not a shopping mall trip. Reapers targeted major populations first, if I recall. This narrows down the known hub worlds availability... right?

Some examples:

Illium-- Reapers
Tuchanka-- Helping Palavan.
Omega-- Cerberus control
Noveria-- Reapers
Earth-- Reapers
Thessia -- In denial--> Reapers
Batarian areas -- Reapers
Volus, Elcor, Vorcha planets-- Reapers
Yahg planet-- would anyone go there?
Sur'Kesh -- why go there? Dalatrass is pissed at Shepard for most of the game.

There's no safe Hub world.

Modifié par Massa FX, 21 janvier 2013 - 06:08 .

[geceka]

Paulomedi wrote...
It happens to be a very, VERY dangerous moral (genocide, eugenics, slavery) conveyed to MILLIONS of young people.

SimonTheFrog wrote...
The horrendous morality only disturbed a very minor group of more observant players.

I think that if you have a genuine interest in supporting a more thoughtful, less inflammatory style of discussion on the BSN, it is quite advisable to abstain from such statements that are – intentionally or not – formulated in a rather provocative way.

As an example, you could argue that, say, "Synthesis" touches on topics that are tangentially related Eugenics, but stating as a fact that "Synthesis" promotes, justifies or glorifies Eugenics is just plain inflammatory. In the same vein, both pro- and anti-enders have repeatedly claimed to be the more observant, more sensitive, more whatever-positive-trait-you-can-think-of group of the two in a quite condescending manner, and this is just as counter-productive. These are just veiled ad-hominem attacks, and it's often enough to heat up the discussion to make it derail entirely.

The whole point is that if you want a discussion, it is extremely important to at least accept that others might not share your opinion, and that it is opinions you discuss, not absolute facts.

Modifié par geceka, 21 janvier 2013 - 07:12 .

[78stonewobble]

Robosexual wrote...
That, right there, is the problem.

A lot of people will say the ending is the problem, though there's no clear reason as to why (Drayfish says because it disagree's with his real life morals, that video you linked was because he percieved there to be Adam & Eve symbolism in the Control ending, his brother because he thinks he achieved nothing by playing a video game, some people because they never got blue babies, and so on). The only thing to do about that problem is to change the ending to fit all these complaints, but Bioware aren't going to do that, so those people will complain about Bioware not listening to them and will create memes out of it. Same with the Catalyst, even if Bioware finds out the core of the problem they're not changing the ending.

I guess I'll help explain my mindset more on the mindless hater comment.

10 months ago my friend completed the game. I was up rather early and he asked me if I had completed it, I said yeah, and he said he hated it so I asked why. While I can't remember exactly what he said I quickly noticed there were a few mistakes in what he was saying, so I tried to explain it to him but he simply dismissed it and got more enraged, listing memes from the Internet, which I called him out on. Like that video you linked where the brother had the sole intention of turning disappointment into hated, his disappointment was turned into hatred by other people spreading misinformation and memes.

We talked about Mass Effect twice after that. When the EC was released, I tried showing him the control ending but he told me to turn it off because it made him angry, and about a week ago when he said to me that he's going to play ME3 again but he's not downloading the EC or getting Leviathan or Omega because " ****ing Bioware's not getting my money", and he's going to stop before the end of the game. Despite the fact that we play multiplayer at least 3 days a week we simply don't talk about anything to do with the story.

Now you see people on BSN with that mindset. Far too much people here loudly proclaim how they're not getting any DLC and how they've not touched the game, and probably never will, until Bioware changes the ending. That's not constructive, that's not going to solve anything, and no amount of reason will be able to change their mindset. It's simply mindless hatred. If Bioware comes here to discuss the game they're just going to be bombarded with people like that. To those people the core of the problem is the ending, and the only thing Bioware can do about it is change the end.

It's not an easy thing cutting to the core of the problem thats for sure. Or problems for that matter. There might be more than one. 

Just as me posting that video with one intent or point and you reading something very different from it.

My point, with the video, was that the original ending left an average gamer incapable of understanding what eg. the choices truely meant. Ie.: "control? It lets you control the reapers. To do what? ... uhm ??? Make em leave, but then what? Uhm ???"

The EC did alot to improve this or atleast explain the concequences of the choices afterward.

You read something entirely different into that video, than I did (though I did tell you to ignore the angry gamer in the end).

In any case I agree that you can't demand bioware to "fix" something that... Depending on who you ask, may or may not be broken and in any case is a matter of taste.

People obviously have the choice to vote, or express their oppinion, with their wallet and I think they should if they really feel that strongly about something. That is after all one of the ways a customer can "disagree" with something.

However, expecting the world to revolve around one self and cater to ones own specific needs is childish.



Personally. I do think the ending was/is problematic. It's not gonna be changed, but I think it could have been better if certain things were different.

With the caveat that bioware shouldn't be designing endings around me, but rather "what the most people would find good".

I don't know if my specific points of view are applicable for "most people", but if they are, taking them into consideration would lead to better endings in future games. If not they can atleast say: "For the love of god don't do what 78stonewobble suggested!!".

Then I'll live with that... *sniffle*

PS: This post got a bit messy but to sum up.

Bioware shouldn't design games or change them to please every little nitpicky wish/problem.

I do, however, think that they should try to design the game (not so much change stuff thats allready long done) so that the majority doesn't have a problem with something or the majority's wish goes ignored.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 21 janvier 2013 - 08:28 .

[dreamgazer]

geceka wrote...

Paulomedi wrote...
It happens to be a very, VERY dangerous moral (genocide, eugenics, slavery) conveyed to MILLIONS of young people.

SimonTheFrog wrote...
The horrendous morality only disturbed a very minor group of more observant players.

I think that if you have a genuine interest in supporting a more thoughtful, less inflammatory style of discussion on the BSN, it is quite advisable to abstain from such statements that are – intentionally or not – formulated in a rather provocative way.

As an example, you could argue that, say, "Synthesis" touches on topics that are tangentially related Eugenics, but stating as a fact that "Synthesis" promotes, justifies or glorifies Eugenics is just plain inflammatory. In the same vein, both pro- and anti-enders have repeatedly claimed to be the more observant, more sensitive, more whatever-positive-trait-you-can-think-of group of the two in a quite condescending manner, and this is just as counter-productive. These are just veiled ad-hominem attacks, and it's often enough to heat up the discussion to make it derail entirely.

The whole point is that if you want a discussion, it is extremely important to at least accept that others might not share your opinion, and that it is opinions you discuss, not absolute facts.

(thumbs up)