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[Outsider edge]

Perhaps they got blinded by all the praise from the critics when Mass Effect 3 launched. On metacritic ME3 is still the highest rated retail game for 2012. The fact it had such a backlash from the fans was something they perhaps weren't truly prepared for.

Also when the game was just a few weeks old the developers were active in the forums. I remember Brandon Holmes investigating the EMS requirements for the 'breath' scene aswell as their PR people really active on the boards.

But as the ending controversy spread Bioware crawled more into the trenches (perhaps due too EA involvement) and untill this day they haven't really resurfaced. Even developer blogs which were omni present in the lead up too Mass Effect 3 have all but dissappeared. It's kinda a shame.

However they need too resurface sometime. Mass Effect 4 won't sell itself...

Modifié par Outsider edge, 18 janvier 2013 - 09:16 .

[Indy_S]

Well, combat isn't too much related to story and the campaign so it tends to get overlooked on the story and campaign forum. As to the auto-dialogue, it is usually more about Shepard getting just one or two choices in most conversations, like how the first discussion with the council only has one choice to be made. It would be nice if BioWare admitted the game was rushed and the ending was unfinished but they are silent. And all we are left to do is speculate about their integrity.

[Ninja Stan]

Really, the arguments here are a no-win situation for BioWare. Based on what I've heard from the BSN in the last year, BioWare has three options:

1. BioWare continued to not say anything. They are accused of avoiding fan interaction, hiding from negativity, and not owning up to their mistakes.

2. BioWare comes in to talk to the fans. BioWare will be shouted down with the same kinds of accusations of incompetence and laziness, vitriol, and a whole lot of venting, none of which is constructive.

3. BioWare merely releases a statement about their goals or to defend the game. They would still be accused of cowardice, of trying to spin their own failure, and hiding from the fans, which they could only fix by doing the second entry in this list.

Regardless, anything said will be scrutinized, quoted, misquoted, and turned into memes just like "awesome button" and "artistic integrity." Because people aren't really looking for a conversation. They are looking for someone to vent their frustrations and disappointments on. They are looking for BioWare to admit their mistakes and acknowledge fans' grief and disappointment. Again, not a constructive dialogue, since no one really cares by the time the next game comes out, anyway.

[Obitim]

john_sheparrd wrote...

^ I think the blind hate mentality and just insulting the developers (not really constructive criticsm) is a pretty good reason for them to stay away from BSN

I have to agree with this, while I'm not a fan of the endings or the direction taking I'd like ot think that all of my arguments have been put forward in a civil manner and with soem sort of thought and argument behind it and not 'it's art' or 'artistic integrity' andleave it at that...

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Many of the devs talks to fans on twitter all the time. Less childish name-calling and bad memes over there.

To be quite honest, this forum is useless. It has turned into a soap box for a bunch of pissed off people who can't accept that BW doesn't bend to their wil.

Modifié par Brovikk Rasputin, 18 janvier 2013 - 09:52 .

[Obitim]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Really, the arguments here are a no-win situation for BioWare. Based on what I've heard from the BSN in the last year, BioWare has three options:

1. BioWare continued to not say anything. They are accused of avoiding fan interaction, hiding from negativity, and not owning up to their mistakes.

2. BioWare comes in to talk to the fans. BioWare will be shouted down with the same kinds of accusations of incompetence and laziness, vitriol, and a whole lot of venting, none of which is constructive.

3. BioWare merely releases a statement about their goals or to defend the game. They would still be accused of cowardice, of trying to spin their own failure, and hiding from the fans, which they could only fix by doing the second entry in this list.

Regardless, anything said will be scrutinized, quoted, misquoted, and turned into memes just like "awesome button" and "artistic integrity." Because people aren't really looking for a conversation. They are looking for someone to vent their frustrations and disappointments on. They are looking for BioWare to admit their mistakes and acknowledge fans' grief and disappointment. Again, not a constructive dialogue, since no one really cares by the time the next game comes out, anyway.

Hi Stan,

I think that's what is essentially wrong with BSN, there's a lot of hate and as you say, if a dev or anyone else comes on to defend BW then they get shouted down with a lack of constructive arguments.

However, do you think that there have been some constructive arguments made on the site?

I tihnk that we need to think of the developers as being in a similar position as people who work in the movies, you'll never hear an actor say 'yeah, I was in this film and it was rubbish, or this part was rubbish' as if they do this then they don't get as much work.  Just take a look at Shia Le Boeff.  In the same vein, the devs can't come on here and say 'we screwed up on these parts' and expect to still have a job at BW, and at the end of the day, all of these guys have mortgages to pay.  In addition I'm sure all the devs are proud of the work they have done and the critical acclaim the game did get for that work, which, if we're honest, is still a decent game.

I feel that they've tried to do the best they can to fan issues by the EC and also using leviathan to assist with the endings issues.

I still stand by what I;ve said in the past but I appreciate the realities of the situation that the devs find themselves in

[GiarcYekrub]

I think Bioware just need to grit their teeth and tollerate the moaners, and just make the best ME4 they want to make, if ME3 is any guage in quality then it'll be a great game and if the moaner want to spite themselves they'll wont get it, their loss.

Seriously people are now crying that Shepard dies, something certainly alluded to in the promotion of ME1 & 2 never mind the whole "ME3 is the end of Shepards story/trilogy" stuff they were saying most of the ME3 press interviews

[Ninja Stan]

I disagree, Brovikk Rasputin. There are still many people here who engage in discussion and debate because they love the games so much. You don't get super passionate about stuff you care nothing about. Only stuff you really love and identify with can make you that excited. And there's nothing wrong with that passion.

The problems only come when you want to have civil, constructive discussions before you've calmed down enough to do so. It might take until the next game is ready to be talked about, but BioWare is aware of the community's attitude and will participate in discussion when they have something to say, and when they will finally be listened to without all that darned yelling.

[Indy_S]

I want a discussion with BioWare. Proper and constructive, no accusations of incompetence or laziness. No vitriol. But I agree that it probably won't happen. I've been expecting them to defend their works since Dr Ray's infamous 'artistic vision' blog, when he said:

Our first instinct is to defend our work and point to the high ratings offered by critics – but out of respect to our fans, we need to accept the criticism and feedback with humility.

... We listen and will respond to constructive criticism

I'm glad they didn't just point to high ratings but there are other ways of defending your work. A part of accepting criticism is arguing why you're initial decisions were valid. They might respect their fans but they're simply not showing it with their silence.

As for that last line, it no longer appears true in any form.

[Darth Spike]

I'm actually one of the people that wouldn't shout at Bioware. Like a good portion of us that is STILL overlooked; we're just waiting for them to make a statment. All we want is for them to say they screwed up and are fixing the ending.

They were the ones who thought we were gonna jump down their throats at PAX, but we proved them wrong.

Anyway what im saying is not everyone is gonna shout at them. even as they continue to do nothing, we just calmly sit here and listen to them. No matter how crappy or supid their 'reasons' are.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

"All we want is for them to say they screwed up and are fixing the ending."

But that is 100% subjective. Why should they do that if they're proud of their work and many people are happy with the ending as it is? You just proved my point with that post. You're not interested in discussing anything. You just want them to do what you tell them.

Modifié par Brovikk Rasputin, 18 janvier 2013 - 10:02 .

[Indy_S]

I don't want them to say that, Brovikk, but I do want them to explain why they're proud of their work. What parts they like, what parts they think they could have improved on, what parts they dislike utterly. That's what I want from them.

[GiarcYekrub]

Indy_S wrote...

I want a discussion with BioWare. Proper and constructive, no accusations of incompetence or laziness. No vitriol. But I agree that it probably won't happen. I've been expecting them to defend their works since Dr Ray's infamous 'artistic vision' blog, when he said:

Our first instinct is to defend our work and point to the high ratings offered by critics – but out of respect to our fans, we need to accept the criticism and feedback with humility.

... We listen and will respond to constructive criticism

I'm glad they didn't just point to high ratings but there are other ways of defending your work. A part of accepting criticism is arguing why you're initial decisions were valid. They might respect their fans but they're simply not showing it with their silence.

As for that last line, it no longer appears true in any form.

I rarely see constructive criticism on here, just demands and thinly veiled blackmail attempts(I won't buy DLC) that their fan fiction get incorporate into the game at the expense of the existing and planned future narative and hardly any common sense, for instance the ME2 companions could be dead, its no wonder there isn't alot of content for all of them, the fact that two can rejoin the crew is an amazing fan service IMO

[Brovikk Rasputin]

I'm no videogame developer, but I doubt they'd put anything they straight up dislike into a high budget product they've been working on for years. Parts of the team may dislike certain things, but since I have nothing to base that on, I can't say more.

Even if they DID come out and explained all this, what would be the point? ME3 has been torn apart on this forum. Even if they adress 20 "issues", there'd still be 80 left, according to some.

To be honest, and I know people are going to jump down my throat for this, I really don't understand the point of all this. Some people are still disappointed. I get that. What I don't get, is why these people don't just wait for the next Mass Effect game. Wait and see what happens Wait for review. Wait for youtube vids. If you don't like what you're seeing, don't buy it.

Probably lots of typos in this. On my phone.

Modifié par Brovikk Rasputin, 18 janvier 2013 - 10:16 .

[Darth Spike]

No, my point was we're not yelling at them at all. The 'screw up' thing is what we would like to here, but it dosn't mean it'll happen. We've been sitting here listening to everything they said.

Labeling everyone who hates the ending as 'people who will yell at us' is a mistake. They are trying to push everyone away and hope it all just disapears.

I'll try to take the high road here. Why don't they pick a handfull of people from every group and have a sit down with them on tv. Set ground rules about how the discution should go, and what not to do. IF they break the rules then they just get kicked out and they make their group look as bad as some people think they are. They can even do the whole thing on twiter if they don't want to actually talk to people.


All i'm asking for is an open conversation with them and none of this pr/ignore crap their pulling.

[Indy_S]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

I want a discussion with BioWare. Proper and constructive, no accusations of incompetence or laziness. No vitriol. But I agree that it probably won't happen. I've been expecting them to defend their works since Dr Ray's infamous 'artistic vision' blog, when he said:

Our first instinct is to defend our work and point to the high ratings offered by critics – but out of respect to our fans, we need to accept the criticism and feedback with humility.

... We listen and will respond to constructive criticism

I'm glad they didn't just point to high ratings but there are other ways of defending your work. A part of accepting criticism is arguing why you're initial decisions were valid. They might respect their fans but they're simply not showing it with their silence.

As for that last line, it no longer appears true in any form.

I rarely see constructive criticism on here, just demands and thinly veiled blackmail attempts(I won't buy DLC) that their fan fiction get incorporate into the game at the expense of the existing and planned future narative and hardly any common sense, for instance the ME2 companions could be dead, its no wonder there isn't alot of content for all of them, the fact that two can rejoin the crew is an amazing fan service IMO

Constructive criticism like 'why doesn't Harbinger have a bigger role given his importance in ME2?' has appeared on this board countless times. And from that question came demands for Harbinger to have a bigger role. A lot of the demands on here are like that, based on constructive criticism. I have no excuse for people's blackmail, though. To be fair, moderators like Stan shut down threads dedicated to that. I have no problem with fan service, but they made that decision before secluding themselves.

[GiarcYekrub]

Indy_S wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

I want a discussion with BioWare. Proper and constructive, no accusations of incompetence or laziness. No vitriol. But I agree that it probably won't happen. I've been expecting them to defend their works since Dr Ray's infamous 'artistic vision' blog, when he said:

Our first instinct is to defend our work and point to the high ratings offered by critics – but out of respect to our fans, we need to accept the criticism and feedback with humility.

... We listen and will respond to constructive criticism

I'm glad they didn't just point to high ratings but there are other ways of defending your work. A part of accepting criticism is arguing why you're initial decisions were valid. They might respect their fans but they're simply not showing it with their silence.

As for that last line, it no longer appears true in any form.

I rarely see constructive criticism on here, just demands and thinly veiled blackmail attempts(I won't buy DLC) that their fan fiction get incorporate into the game at the expense of the existing and planned future narative and hardly any common sense, for instance the ME2 companions could be dead, its no wonder there isn't alot of content for all of them, the fact that two can rejoin the crew is an amazing fan service IMO

Constructive criticism like 'why doesn't Harbinger have a bigger role given his importance in ME2?' has appeared on this board countless times. And from that question came demands for Harbinger to have a bigger role. A lot of the demands on here are like that, based on constructive criticism. I have no excuse for people's blackmail, though. To be fair, moderators like Stan shut down threads dedicated to that. I have no problem with fan service, but they made that decision before secluding themselves.

Well personally I'm hoping its because they are saving Harbinger for the ME4 main protagonist/antagonist you need some loose ends that can be carried forward. They said its the end of Shepards story, not the Mass Effect one.

[Indy_S]

Brovikk Rasputin wrote...

I'm no videogame developer, but I doubt they'd put anything they straight up dislike into a high budget product they've been working on for years. Parts of the team may dislike certain things, but since I have nothing to base that on, I can't say more.

Even if they DID come out and explained all this, what would be the point? ME3 has been torn apart on this forum. Even if they adress 20 "issues", there'd still be 80 left, according to some.

To be honest, and I know people are going to jump down my throat for this, I really don't understand the point of all this. Some people are still disappointed. I get that. What I don't get, is why these people don't just wait for the next Mass Effect game. Wait and see what happens Wait for review. Wait for youtube vids. If you don't like what you're seeing, don't buy it.

Probably lots of typos in this. On my phone.

ME3 has been torn apart here. As has DA2 and ME2 before that. This is the same as a lot of other triple-A titles. But involving themselves in the forums demonstrates a rapport with the fans. Adressing twenty issues is better than zero.

As to the point, BioWare has always presented itself as in-touch with its fans. But their lack of presence in their own forum and in the discussions that take place within demonstrates something else, something more negative. The people airing their grievances with the narrative, the lore, the characters and so on, have nobody to talk to about it. No voice of authority that can recognise their grievances as legitimate concerns. Some people are waiting for the next game, they are doing what you're saying, but the ones on BSN are trying to influence the next game, make sure it doesn't make the same mistakes.

And I couldn't spot a typo. Well done.

[Darth Spike]

I agree with you there Indy_S. I may say what i'd like them to do but i don't go around demanding that it happen. I might never get the 'we screwed up' anouncment, but i'm not gonna get made if they don't. If they at least explain why they did what they did, i'll be somewhat happy. I'm not gonna lie and say i'll be completley happy, but they would be giving us something at least.


I'm not trying to blackmail them by saying i won't buy anything else from them unless they change the ending. I'm just stating that ii don't like they way their going about this whole thing and they lost a diehard fan because of it. Truth be told, i love Mass Effect too much to simply stop caring. I find it sad that so many of us have resorted to pushing blame and yelling at each other because of the endings. We wern't like this before ME3 came out.


I just hope that we can all just calm down and try to discuss this like the adults we are. Bioware included.

[GiarcYekrub]

Wasn't Chris Priestly here yesterday to reassure fans that they weren't going to change the ending again

[Darth Spike]

I don't think he was. I don't know for sure but as far as i know nobody's heard from him in a while.

[Kazzuuk]

Indy_S wrote...


ME3 has been torn apart here. As has DA2 and ME2 before that. This is the same as a lot of other triple-A titles. But involving themselves in the forums demonstrates a rapport with the fans. Adressing twenty issues is better than zero.

As to the point, BioWare has always presented itself as in-touch with its fans. But their lack of presence in their own forum and in the discussions that take place within demonstrates something else, something more negative. The people airing their grievances with the narrative, the lore, the characters and so on, have nobody to talk to about it. No voice of authority that can recognise their grievances as legitimate concerns. Some people are waiting for the next game, they are doing what you're saying, but the ones on BSN are trying to influence the next game, make sure it doesn't make the same mistakes.

And I couldn't spot a typo. Well done.

One must ask the question, how much influence should the BSN fanbase have?  BSN is like most offical forums in games, and only represents a very tiny fraction (albeit most passionate and by definition, fanatical).  Even amongst BSN, there are several factions.  Whose influence should they follow?  To paraphrase Liara, if you have 3 humans in the room, you will have 6 opinions.

[Grubas]

So the general consensus is that even if a part of the ME team resurfaces on this Forum, he will be talked down. Is that correct?

[Darth Spike]

I don't think they have to follow anyones influence. They clearly aren't doing that right now anyway (sorry, not trying to sound nasty). They can just leave the ME universe behind and just do something different. The only thing they should do is learn from this and move one (once again they don't have to just stating my opinion).They just need to decide what there rare doing to do and let everyone know why they're making that choice.

[Indy_S]

Kazzuuk wrote...

Indy_S wrote...


ME3 has been torn apart here. As has DA2 and ME2 before that. This is the same as a lot of other triple-A titles. But involving themselves in the forums demonstrates a rapport with the fans. Adressing twenty issues is better than zero.

As to the point, BioWare has always presented itself as in-touch with its fans. But their lack of presence in their own forum and in the discussions that take place within demonstrates something else, something more negative. The people airing their grievances with the narrative, the lore, the characters and so on, have nobody to talk to about it. No voice of authority that can recognise their grievances as legitimate concerns. Some people are waiting for the next game, they are doing what you're saying, but the ones on BSN are trying to influence the next game, make sure it doesn't make the same mistakes.

One must ask the question, how much influence should the BSN fanbase have?  BSN is like most offical forums in games, and only represents a very tiny fraction (albeit most passionate and by definition, fanatical).  Even amongst BSN, there are several factions.  Whose influence should they follow?  To paraphrase Liara, if you have 3 humans in the room, you will have 6 opinions.

I suppose that's an answer for BioWare to give. I think there's a general consensus that choices should matter more to the story and that BioWare should try to improve themselves in this regard but you're right that most issues are just simply differences in opinion. What I'd like them to take away from this is to ensure continuity testing and to listen to the test audiences. If the ending was rushed, it's possible the test audiences didn't even get to see it before it was put on the disc.