390 réponses à ce sujet

[GiarcYekrub]

Darth Spike wrote...

I don't think he was. I don't know for sure but as far as i know nobody's heard from him in a while.

Yeah he was, even locked when the moaners still wouldn't accept it, so its not silence.
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/15572077/18

Modifié par GiarcYekrub, 18 janvier 2013 - 10:57 .

[Obitim]

Darth Spike wrote...

I don't think he was. I don't know for sure but as far as i know nobody's heard from him in a while.

Yeah, Chris was and he did say it as I remember reading it..

[PanzerGr3nadier]

When someone is giving you his opinion, you should receive it with deep gratitude even though it is worthless. If you don't, he will not tell the things that he has seen and heard you again.

I think the reason why the forum is so negative is because of lack of Dev activity. People come to these forums to search answers and when they only receive silence, they start to rant amongst themselves.

I've had my share from the endings, I just want to see the devs again in here and not in Twitter, where they can hide behind the 150 character limit.

[Brovikk Rasputin]

No matter what, I think it's safe to say changes to the endings are out of the picture. There's a reason those threads gets locked, you know.

[JamesFaith]

Indy_S wrote...

 What I'd like them to take away from this is to ensure continuity testing and to listen to the test audiences. If the ending was rushed, it's possible the test audiences didn't even get to see it before it was put on the disc.

You know it's interesting how many people here suppossed that test audience would have same opinion on ME3 as them.

I personally, not just from net, know 11 people who bought and played whole ME3. This group contains both genders, different ages (24 - 37), single and married people, diferent jobs and different schools. And our opinions on ME3?

3 love it, 2 hate it and 7 are neutral about it. Make as test group and it would 3 Great Yes, 7 OK and 2 NO and game would be probably released in current state.

Suppossed test group should easily have major positive opinion same as major neutral or negative.

[cyrslash1974]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Really, the arguments here are a no-win situation for BioWare. Based on what I've heard from the BSN in the last year, BioWare has three options:

1. BioWare continued to not say anything. They are accused of avoiding fan interaction, hiding from negativity, and not owning up to their mistakes.

2. BioWare comes in to talk to the fans. BioWare will be shouted down with the same kinds of accusations of incompetence and laziness, vitriol, and a whole lot of venting, none of which is constructive.

3. BioWare merely releases a statement about their goals or to defend the game. They would still be accused of cowardice, of trying to spin their own failure, and hiding from the fans, which they could only fix by doing the second entry in this list.

Regardless, anything said will be scrutinized, quoted, misquoted, and turned into memes just like "awesome button" and "artistic integrity." Because people aren't really looking for a conversation. They are looking for someone to vent their frustrations and disappointments on. They are looking for BioWare to admit their mistakes and acknowledge fans' grief and disappointment. Again, not a constructive dialogue, since no one really cares by the time the next game comes out, anyway.

Sad but true (Metallica touch...)

We are too passionate to be very constructive. It's difficult to be listened.

[Indy_S]

JamesFaith wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

 What I'd like them to take away from this is to ensure continuity testing and to listen to the test audiences. If the ending was rushed, it's possible the test audiences didn't even get to see it before it was put on the disc.

You know it's interesting how many people here suppossed that test audience would have same opinion on ME3 as them.

I personally, not just from net, know 11 people who bought and played whole ME3. This group contains both genders, different ages (24 - 37), single and married people, diferent jobs and different schools. And our opinions on ME3?

3 love it, 2 hate it and 7 are neutral about it. Make as test group and it would 3 Great Yes, 7 OK and 2 NO and game would be probably released in current state.

Suppossed test group should easily have major positive opinion same as major neutral or negative.

But if adressing the concerns of the negatives is possible without changing the opinions of the positives? That's one of the issues with the endings. Most people here prefer the EC over the original endings. The great dislike for the endings were because of the original endings initially and we're supposed to assume that BioWare didn't think that the complaints of the negatives about these endings wouldn't be echoed by the public? That's not how test audiences work.

And I'm not saying to follow every bit of advice the test audience gives. Some of it simply won't improve the game. I am simply saying they should be aware of the issues people have with the game while it is still in development and they can change it.

[Grubas]

The reason i asked you about Sylfv is this:

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/323/index/12486978/36

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/325/index/10023808

AND her countless comments in the Liara Thread!

And her other comments here and there across the board. 

Im so bold to say, She answered every single issue i had with the Liara character (regarding bugs, romance, her work etc...)

The threads she was posting in were civil! She just came here to talk in a genuine manner about her work. 

So ONE minor writer for ME3 has more presence on the ME3 Board then the WHOLE team together.

Or in other words: Count how many posts you read from Casey Hudson, Mike Gamble, And Mac Walters together. 

This is sad. 

"Toxic environment" my a*****.

Modifié par Grubas, 18 janvier 2013 - 11:29 .

[SpamBot2000]

I guess most of the ME3 team don't want to come on BSN to defend the thing that most pissed off people since they are not responsible for it in the first place. We all know the ending was the work of two people who completely bypassed the views of the rest of the team. And if we think about it, we also realize that the reason they did what they did is not something that can be defended as such.

Those two people can't just come on here and go 'Yeah, our artistic vision was to kill Mass Effect dead, you see... it had to be tombstone final, and ridiculously divisive enough to turn the fans against each other about any possible follow-up.'

And the rest of the team understandably don't much feel like standing up for that particular decision, made without their feedback.

[Indy_S]

I'd love if they officially said that as a team, they dislike it. Or if they said that as a team they liked it. Or if they spoke about it at all. The fact that nobody comes on here to discuss it seems somewhat like a Non-Disclosure Agreement is in effect. There might be repercussions for speaking negatively about the any part of the game.

[JamesFaith]

Indy_S wrote...


But if adressing the concerns of the negatives is possible without changing the opinions of the positives? That's one of the issues with the endings. Most people here prefer the EC over the original endings. The great dislike for the endings were because of the original endings initially and we're supposed to assume that BioWare didn't think that the complaints of the negatives about these endings wouldn't be echoed by the public? That's not how test audiences work.

And I'm not saying to follow every bit of advice the test audience gives. Some of it simply won't improve the game. I am simply saying they should be aware of the issues people have with the game while it is still in development and they can change it.

I spoke about our pre-EC opinion. After EC is ratio 5 like, 6 neutral and 1 still hate it.

And you're again assuming that test group would have same complains against original endings like people who was later satisfied by EC. Even most audible complains here shouldn't be voiced by test group - f.e. between my friends no one have problem with minor role of Harbinger in ME3, yet there is strong clique of Harbinger's fan on BSN now.

And what if negative feedback is directly against positive one? Great example is Shepard death (I like it) and Shepard's surviving? They can choose only one in such case and again it should be different then later public opinion.

Test group are just indicator, not prophets of true, and test group opinions can sometimes bring more damage then good, just look on Bladerunner happyending demanded by test group.

[GiarcYekrub]

Indy_S wrote...

I'd love if they officially said that as a team, they dislike it. Or if they said that as a team they liked it. Or if they spoke about it at all. The fact that nobody comes on here to discuss it seems somewhat like a Non-Disclosure Agreement is in effect. There might be repercussions for speaking negatively about the any part of the game.

Umm...

Chris Priestly wrote...

We do not see the ending of Mass Effect 3 as crap.

I personally agree with him

[JamesFaith]

Indy_S wrote...

I'd love if they officially said that as a team, they dislike it. Or if they said that as a team they liked it. .

Honestly, if they say that they like it as team, this will probably happen.

Fans who like it would cheer and nothinh change for them.
Fans who don't care still wouldn't care.
Fans who hate it will ignore it, call them mediocrity lovers (quotation from many posts directed against pro-enders) or hypocites and would still hate it.

It would change nothing.

[fainmaca]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Really, the arguments here are a no-win situation for BioWare. Based on what I've heard from the BSN in the last year, BioWare has three options:

1. BioWare continued to not say anything. They are accused of avoiding fan interaction, hiding from negativity, and not owning up to their mistakes.

2. BioWare comes in to talk to the fans. BioWare will be shouted down with the same kinds of accusations of incompetence and laziness, vitriol, and a whole lot of venting, none of which is constructive.

3. BioWare merely releases a statement about their goals or to defend the game. They would still be accused of cowardice, of trying to spin their own failure, and hiding from the fans, which they could only fix by doing the second entry in this list.

Regardless, anything said will be scrutinized, quoted, misquoted, and turned into memes just like "awesome button" and "artistic integrity." Because people aren't really looking for a conversation. They are looking for someone to vent their frustrations and disappointments on. They are looking for BioWare to admit their mistakes and acknowledge fans' grief and disappointment.

But all you're doing is letting the ill-will fester and rot. You could have faced a brief spate of hostility and over-analysis before an agreeable accord could be reached, a covenant between developer and consumer going forward. But instead, you've let the anger simmer on, and now all you've done is given yourself a harder time moving on.

Someone at BW posted a blog not too long ago (Gaider, was it?) mentioning the 'toxic' environment on here. Its not toxic, its gangrenous, and it got this way because you closed your eyes and stuck your fingers in your ears.

Again, not a constructive dialogue, since no one really cares by the time the next game comes out, anyway.

This is a worryingly silly thing for you to say. I should think the past ten months would be proof enough that your consumers really do care about this sort of thing. We're not magpies to be distracted by the next shiny thing you flash around. The whole basis of this entire FRANCHISE was to make us care about what went before as we went into the new installment, and it was the developer's disregard for what they had put their consumers through in the first two games that caused this whole mess. Saying 'nobody will care by the time we release the next game' is incredibly stupid. The IP's entire premise is built on people still caring by the time the next installment rolls around.

[Indy_S]

JamesFaith wrote...

Indy_S wrote...


But if adressing the concerns of the negatives is possible without changing the opinions of the positives? That's one of the issues with the endings. Most people here prefer the EC over the original endings. The great dislike for the endings were because of the original endings initially and we're supposed to assume that BioWare didn't think that the complaints of the negatives about these endings wouldn't be echoed by the public? That's not how test audiences work.

And I'm not saying to follow every bit of advice the test audience gives. Some of it simply won't improve the game. I am simply saying they should be aware of the issues people have with the game while it is still in development and they can change it.

I spoke about our pre-EC opinion. After EC is ratio 5 like, 6 neutral and 1 still hate it.

And you're again assuming that test group would have same complains against original endings like people who was later satisfied by EC. Even most audible complains here shouldn't be voiced by test group - f.e. between my friends no one have problem with minor role of Harbinger in ME3, yet there is strong clique of Harbinger's fan on BSN now.

And what if negative feedback is directly against positive one? Great example is Shepard death (I like it) and Shepard's surviving? They can choose only one in such case and again it should be different then later public opinion.

Test group are just indicator, not prophets of true, and test group opinions can sometimes bring more damage then good, just look on Bladerunner happyending demanded by test group.

I was making the assumption that there would be issues regarding the ending, not that they would be satisfied by the EC. Maybe if these issues were adressed, there wouldn't have been an EC. Maybe.

My first sentence regarded a case where negative feedback was unrelated to the positive. You're right that when it is related, they should follow the advice of the majority. I'm not demanding a happy ending, I never have and I don't expect the test group would be screaming for it either. A failure to predict the audience's reaction just means your test audience was too small. As true for Bladerunner as it is for Mass Effect.

[Indy_S]

JamesFaith wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

I'd love if they officially said that as a team, they dislike it. Or if they said that as a team they liked it. .

Honestly, if they say that they like it as team, this will probably happen.

Fans who like it would cheer and nothinh change for them.
Fans who don't care still wouldn't care.
Fans who hate it will ignore it, call them mediocrity lovers (quotation from many posts directed against pro-enders) or hypocites and would still hate it.

It would change nothing.

Obviously, I'd rather they said more along with it. If they defended the endings, explained why they were happy with the endings, explained why they didn't want to include the parts of the EC everybody likes. It establishes a rapport. It changes something.

EDIT: GiarcYekrub, this post adresses yours too.

Modifié par Indy_S, 18 janvier 2013 - 11:57 .

[archangel1996]

Apparently, they will come discuss with us when we all will say that they are awesome and ME3 is awesome
We are too toxic now

[GiarcYekrub]

Writting a story based on survey results is just wrong, people are stupid, people on mass are stupider, just look at the popular shows on TV they are just generic reality/talent contest tripe

[archangel1996]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Really, the arguments here are a no-win situation for BioWare. Based on what I've heard from the BSN in the last year, BioWare has three options:

1. BioWare continued to not say anything. They are accused of avoiding fan interaction, hiding from negativity, and not owning up to their mistakes.

2. BioWare comes in to talk to the fans. BioWare will be shouted down with the same kinds of accusations of incompetence and laziness, vitriol, and a whole lot of venting, none of which is constructive.

3. BioWare merely releases a statement about their goals or to defend the game. They would still be accused of cowardice, of trying to spin their own failure, and hiding from the fans, which they could only fix by doing the second entry in this list.

Regardless, anything said will be scrutinized, quoted, misquoted, and turned into memes just like "awesome button" and "artistic integrity." Because people aren't really looking for a conversation. They are looking for someone to vent their frustrations and disappointments on. They are looking for BioWare to admit their mistakes and acknowledge fans' grief and disappointment. Again, not a constructive dialogue, since no one really cares by the time the next game comes out, anyway.

Sir, BW, and not you or CP, i mean the ones who should fell involved in all of this never came here and never sayed anything about all of this, they pretened that this never happened. EC? they made it just because they can say " yeah, we listen to you, we even made a(meaningless) free DLC, what do you want from us?"...i know for sure that  people who defend them say this exactly......
Toxic? Well it's 1 year that we are here, and no one even made a statement, this "toxic" atmosphere could have been avoided, they didn't even try
Maybe they weill be shouted down, it's all teir fault because they let us here boling our frustation month after month, again their fault
No one cares? Mmm, sales i think will care :innocent:

[archangel1996]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Writting a story based on survey results is just wrong, people are stupid, people on mass are stupider, just look at the popular shows on TV they are just generic reality/talent contest tripe

And i think that someone who insults other people because they think otherwise is really sad......they harm you speaking? No? Then shut up and play the game

Modifié par archangel1996, 18 janvier 2013 - 12:09 .

[JasonShepard]

OP: the Constructive discussion is useful to Bioware because it helps them to see why we want these things, even if they don't intend to give all of them. They can then take that why and (hopefully) give us new stuff, that we weren't expecting, but does fit with what we want.

In any case, I haven't given up on Harbinger DLC yet.

Oh, and:

1- Lack of proper closure in endings.

2- Lack of Harbringer and collectors.

3- Better handling of ME2 character and possibly additional squadmates.

4- Lack of hub worlds

1. I'm happy with the EC (sue me),
2. Still holding out hope,
3. Thane's death being unremarked on was the only one that really disappointed me here. Additional squadmates require considerable voice-acting investment for comparatively little return. Also, I for one am quite happy with the squad that we have, so it would be just one more person left behind on the SR2 all the time...
4. Citadel covers most needs as far as hub worlds are concerned - what else are you looking for? Could they just add more shops in a different location and you'd be happy? Omega's hub world was good - I would have prefered it to stick around after the DLC, so that we could visit and possibly read some Cerberus data files, but I'm guessing that Bioware ran out of space.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 18 janvier 2013 - 12:20 .

[GiarcYekrub]

archangel1996 wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Writting a story based on survey results is just wrong, people are stupid, people on mass are stupider, just look at the popular shows on TV they are just generic reality/talent contest tripe

And i think that someone who insults other people because they think otherwise is really sad......they harm you speaking? No? Then shut up and play the game

Exactly, the harm in negativity arround here is the threat that EA will pull the funding of the next chapter in the ME universe, with Star Trek and Stargate sci fi universes on the scrapheap at the moment, Mass Effect is one of the few that are left. I don't want juvenile attacks jeopardizing it. 

[SpamBot2000]

GiarcYekrub wrote...

archangel1996 wrote...

GiarcYekrub wrote...

Writting a story based on survey results is just wrong, people are stupid, people on mass are stupider, just look at the popular shows on TV they are just generic reality/talent contest tripe

And i think that someone who insults other people because they think otherwise is really sad......they harm you speaking? No? Then shut up and play the game

Exactly, the harm in negativity arround here is the threat that EA will pull the funding of the next chapter in the ME universe, with Star Trek and Stargate sci fi universes on the scrapheap at the moment, Mass Effect is one of the few that are left. I don't want juvenile attacks jeopardizing it. 

Yeah, Casey Hudson and Mac Walters need to stop attacking Mass Effect!

[78stonewobble]

While the missing closure was somewhat remedied in the extended cut it did little to alleviate my biggest problem with it.

The Catalyst.

Sure they added information, and I know some people don't agree with me, but I genuinely believe it was overall just too simple/stupid to pull of the kind of intelligent ending they tried to go far.

And lacking that I'd have much rather preferred a "stock" non-twist ending.

A hard to get but happy ending.
A bittersweet ending.
A sournote ending.
A loss.

Perhaps with renegade/paragon twists to them.

Perhaps this would also had been for the best considering the emotional engagement people had with the characters and the universe and for the sense of rewarding after so many hours invested.

This all came out a bit messy but to sum up:
A mindblowingly good ending (and night universally accepted as such) requires a mindblowingly good idea for it. Be doubly sure it is that or settle for an "ok" to "good" (not in the sense of happyness) ending that is just satisfying.
 
EDIT and PS:

Yeah... I pretty much agree this is a no win situation for bioware (as in finding a "solution").

Personally I don't see myself as a "hater" or a "fanboy":

I love alot of the game(s). Parts of some them could have been better and I do hate the catalyst but overall I found them very very good. If I didn't like the games I wouldn't be here after all.

I do hope that bioware will continue to give my great gaming experiences in the future and for my sake (and imho) remember that it's easier to overcome eg. clunky combat mechanics than emotional disinterest.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 18 janvier 2013 - 12:33 .

[clarkusdarkus]

" since really noone cares by the time the next game comes out "

That right they're mr stan is the arrogance and smugness bioware are accused of, i havent bought any dlc for ME3 because it was dissapointing, i bought all dlc for ME1/2.... So you are completely wrong in thinking people like me will 1. Forget , 2. Buy the next game....... To simply state this forum isn't constructive shows your cherry picking what to read as drayfish, 3D&beyond, and many more have gave more than enough feedback which is constructive.....reminds me of the " endings " thread..." Yes we are listening " lol..

I used to buy final fantasy games day of release, never thought i'd stop playing them, but after ff10 the quality just went downhill....square-enix turned it into a pop culture emo fest, suffice to say iv'e never touched they're games since 10.... So no...fans dont forget, and i see similar trends now with bioware games ( DA2/TOR/ME3 )...mediocre gaming.....so when DA3 is out then ME4...i will most certainly not forget what went on before. But feel free stick fingers in your ears " we dont care " attitude..