390 réponses à ce sujet

[Grubas]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Really, the arguments here are a no-win situation for BioWare. Based on what I've heard from the BSN in the last year, BioWare has three options:

1. BioWare continued to not say anything. They are accused of avoiding fan interaction, hiding from negativity, and not owning up to their mistakes.

2. BioWare comes in to talk to the fans. BioWare will be shouted down with the same kinds of accusations of incompetence and laziness, vitriol, and a whole lot of venting, none of which is constructive.

3. BioWare merely releases a statement about their goals or to defend the game. They would still be accused of cowardice, of trying to spin their own failure, and hiding from the fans, which they could only fix by doing the second entry in this list.

Regardless, anything said will be scrutinized, quoted, misquoted, and turned into memes just like "awesome button" and "artistic integrity." Because people aren't really looking for a conversation. They are looking for someone to vent their frustrations and disappointments on. They are looking for BioWare to admit their mistakes and acknowledge fans' grief and disappointment. Again, not a constructive dialogue, since no one really cares by the time the next game comes out, anyway.

So Stan, as posted before, Sylvf was on the BSN and didn't face Point 2 and Point 3 of your list . Despite that she was the writer for Liara, aka "stalking" Liara, and people accusing bw for forcing this character upon them. 
No venom has been spilled upon her. 
Can you explain that? 

Modifié par Grubas, 18 janvier 2013 - 12:37 .

[cyrslash1974]

JamesFaith wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

 What I'd like them to take away from this is to ensure continuity testing and to listen to the test audiences. If the ending was rushed, it's possible the test audiences didn't even get to see it before it was put on the disc.

You know it's interesting how many people here suppossed that test audience would have same opinion on ME3 as them.

I personally, not just from net, know 11 people who bought and played whole ME3. This group contains both genders, different ages (24 - 37), single and married people, diferent jobs and different schools. And our opinions on ME3?

3 love it, 2 hate it and 7 are neutral about it. Make as test group and it would 3 Great Yes, 7 OK and 2 NO and game would be probably released in current state.

Suppossed test group should easily have major positive opinion same as major neutral or negative.

It would be interesting to know if this group had played the 2 other ME games before playing ME3. I know similar group people - people who had played the serie - and the NO is king.

[Reorte]

Ninja Stan wrote...
...

2. BioWare comes in to talk to the fans. BioWare will be shouted down with the same kinds of accusations of incompetence and laziness, vitriol, and a whole lot of venting, none of which is constructive.

It can (and has been at times) taken too far but to simply dismiss claims of incomptence and laziness as not being constructive is to refuse to admit that there's possibly an issue here. Considering all the logical flaws that have been extensively pointed out it's very hard to see that there isn't an issue with one or both of those. Talking doesn't mean stating "This is what we say, accept it." There seems to be a complete and utter unwillingness to even admit to the possibility that BioWare could be wrong at all which is what causes a lot of the vitriol. You don't get this many people this annoyed without doing something wrong.

[Ithurael]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Really, the arguments here are a no-win situation for BioWare. Based on what I've heard from the BSN in the last year, BioWare has three options:

1. BioWare continued to not say anything. They are accused of avoiding fan interaction, hiding from negativity, and not owning up to their mistakes.

2. BioWare comes in to talk to the fans. BioWare will be shouted down with the same kinds of accusations of incompetence and laziness, vitriol, and a whole lot of venting, none of which is constructive.

3. BioWare merely releases a statement about their goals or to defend the game. They would still be accused of cowardice, of trying to spin their own failure, and hiding from the fans, which they could only fix by doing the second entry in this list.

Regardless, anything said will be scrutinized, quoted, misquoted, and turned into memes just like "awesome button" and "artistic integrity." Because people aren't really looking for a conversation. They are looking for someone to vent their frustrations and disappointments on. They are looking for BioWare to admit their mistakes and acknowledge fans' grief and disappointment. Again, not a constructive dialogue, since no one really cares by the time the next game comes out, anyway.

To Point #2 look at this list of quesitons:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/14238839

Yes some fans lack 'tact' but many don't (especially the OP who compiled that list) and in the end none of those 140+ questions sound like venting, vitriol, or anything other than genuine questions about the game & lore that many of us came to love and are confused about in the final moments of the trilogy.

[GiarcYekrub]

Ithurael wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

Really, the arguments here are a no-win situation for BioWare. Based on what I've heard from the BSN in the last year, BioWare has three options:

1. BioWare continued to not say anything. They are accused of avoiding fan interaction, hiding from negativity, and not owning up to their mistakes.

2. BioWare comes in to talk to the fans. BioWare will be shouted down with the same kinds of accusations of incompetence and laziness, vitriol, and a whole lot of venting, none of which is constructive.

3. BioWare merely releases a statement about their goals or to defend the game. They would still be accused of cowardice, of trying to spin their own failure, and hiding from the fans, which they could only fix by doing the second entry in this list.

Regardless, anything said will be scrutinized, quoted, misquoted, and turned into memes just like "awesome button" and "artistic integrity." Because people aren't really looking for a conversation. They are looking for someone to vent their frustrations and disappointments on. They are looking for BioWare to admit their mistakes and acknowledge fans' grief and disappointment. Again, not a constructive dialogue, since no one really cares by the time the next game comes out, anyway.

To Point #2 look at this list of quesitons:
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/14238839

Yes some fans lack 'tact' but many don't (especially the OP who compiled that list) and in the end none of those 140+ questions sound like venting, vitriol, or anything other than genuine questions about the game & lore that many of us came to love and are confused about in the final moments of the trilogy.

Alot of them are trivial though, with a little common sense you can resonably answer most of those yourself without wasting the time of the developers who's time would be alot better spent making new content be it DLC or ME4

[GiarcYekrub]

*wrong thread

Modifié par GiarcYekrub, 18 janvier 2013 - 01:36 .

[JamesFaith]

cyrslash1974 wrote...

JamesFaith wrote...

Indy_S wrote...

 What I'd like them to take away from this is to ensure continuity testing and to listen to the test audiences. If the ending was rushed, it's possible the test audiences didn't even get to see it before it was put on the disc.

You know it's interesting how many people here suppossed that test audience would have same opinion on ME3 as them.

I personally, not just from net, know 11 people who bought and played whole ME3. This group contains both genders, different ages (24 - 37), single and married people, diferent jobs and different schools. And our opinions on ME3?

3 love it, 2 hate it and 7 are neutral about it. Make as test group and it would 3 Great Yes, 7 OK and 2 NO and game would be probably released in current state.

Suppossed test group should easily have major positive opinion same as major neutral or negative.

It would be interesting to know if this group had played the 2 other ME games before playing ME3. I know similar group people - people who had played the serie - and the NO is king.

Because you are interested in it, yes, they played all three in few months after their release, so popular argument "you don't know what you missed" is out of question here.

And we all are fans of RPG and only two of them are active player of pure shoiters, so Gear of Wars (never played it) arguments  doesn't fit on us too. 

[Yate]

if people think the main problems with ME3 are lack of Harbinger and hub worlds...

I don't even know what to say. That is stupid. That is really, really stupid. Those are two pointless details in the grand scheme of things. ME3 needed more real missions, more varied gameplay, more dialogue wheels, more deaths, and a better ending. (Yes, I'm a pro-ender, but I realize they could've done a MUCH better job with it than they did.) Sadly, most people will focus on the little picture details like Liara getting 2.5 seconds more screentime than other LIs, or Tali getting a photoshop image.

[Ithurael]

Yate wrote...

if people think the main problems with ME3 are lack of Harbinger and hub worlds...

I don't even know what to say. That is stupid. That is really, really stupid. Those are two pointless details in the grand scheme of things. ME3 needed more real missions, more varied gameplay, more dialogue wheels, more deaths, and a better ending. (Yes, I'm a pro-ender, but I realize they could've done a MUCH better job with it than they did.) Sadly, most people will focus on the little picture details like Liara getting 2.5 seconds more screentime than other LIs, or Tali getting a photoshop image.

While I agree with the underlined part I must disagree and/or comment on tali.

Now, I am a liara-mancer. but the fact Tali got the shaft via a poorly done photoshop stock image and Allers got a full body-scan is a bit rough. I mean, even the fingers in Tali's personal 'photo' don't match with her physiology in-game model. Tali's face was a reveal I was looking forwared to, but in the end it was kind of a dissappointment. My opinion though.

[Sanunes]

The problem is that there might be constructive feedback on these boards when a developer doesn't say anything or something the group doesn't feel is wrong, but since so much of these boards seem to be posting about how wrong BioWare was for certain decisions in the game the moment they try to defend it they are attacked, even if its half of the people in that thread its too many.

I have been on these BSN forums since they launched between ME1 and ME2 and I visited the other ones occasionally and whenever a dev posted about something the community didn't like it was a worthless post that generally got locked because of the people derailing it and it just made everything worse.

Would I like more posts from people on the Mass Effect team, certainly, but I don't think these boards in general would be able to handle it.

[somecthemes]

With there seeming to be a big lack of feedback from the developers, at least as far as most fans here seem willing to accept, maybe a small tribute board could be set up with the suggestions that were either useful or included in the game somehow being highlighted by the developer. It'll inspire a sense of accomplishment in the fan and let the developer show their favorite styles of input and what ideas are most likely to be considered.

Not to say a fan needs to format their concerns to be heard, but seeing their suggestion about adding such and such weapon or story element being added in the game would question the idea that Bioware's board is only a place for nagging harpies and their oppressive handlers. It would actually show something worthwhile coming from the fans as well, so that might help with the vitriol as well.

[TheRealJayDee]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Really, the arguments here are a no-win situation for BioWare. Based on what I've heard from the BSN in the last year, BioWare has three options:

1. BioWare continued to not say anything. They are accused of avoiding fan interaction, hiding from negativity, and not owning up to their mistakes.

2. BioWare comes in to talk to the fans. BioWare will be shouted down with the same kinds of accusations of incompetence and laziness, vitriol, and a whole lot of venting, none of which is constructive.

3. BioWare merely releases a statement about their goals or to defend the game. They would still be accused of cowardice, of trying to spin their own failure, and hiding from the fans, which they could only fix by doing the second entry in this list.

Regardless, anything said will be scrutinized, quoted, misquoted, and turned into memes just like "awesome button" and "artistic integrity." Because people aren't really looking for a conversation. They are looking for someone to vent their frustrations and disappointments on. They are looking for BioWare to admit their mistakes and acknowledge fans' grief and disappointment. Again, not a constructive dialogue, since no one really cares by the time the next game comes out, anyway.

Okay, this post... I guess I should really finally just give up trying to be constructive and reasonable, because obviously it doesn't amount to ****. It's just... it's seriously frustrating. You as well as the whole of Bioware are doing this extremely obnoxious thing were you lump everyone on the BSN together and say it's impossible to have any dialogue at all here and therefore there is no need to even think about trying. There are these funny things like site rules and moderators and community managers and such, one might think that it should be possible to use all these to make a dialogue happen. Look at the Sylvf thread that was linked eralier in this thread - what was that and how was it even possible?

So it's a problem that people look reeeeally closely at everything Bioware employees say? Can't possibly have been made worse by, I don't know, the one or two instances of ME3 devs saying things that sounded pretty specific and that later turned out to be very unfortunate misunderstandings on our part. Rachni, ABC endings, galactic wasteland, whatever. I hope folks at Bioware have analyzed why fans were so up in arms against the "artistic integretiy" thing. It's also great that you know what "people" are looking for or not, and that you think fans are somehow wrong in wanting their grief and disappointment at least acknowledged. I mean, yeah, it's only been, what, at least 90+ hours of playtime, quite some dollars and in some cases a few years of being a dedicated fan that people put into Mass Effect - why should they be given the feeling they're being taken seriously?

Your last sentence... urgh. It's just not pretty, regardless of wether you're talking about the fans or the devs themselves. If that's the official line of thinking at Bioware, and it does seem so, well... good luck! Since I can't make definite statements past my own feelings, and can provide only anecdotal evidence we'll just have to wait and see. But this attitude, although there surely is a lot of truth in it, just sickens and alienates me.

Damn, I was even completely determined to let every bit of my anger and disappointment with Bioware and their "communication" go and to just start fresh with the beginning of the new year. Entrance Chris Priestly: "Public discussion of IT shall be forbidden from this day forth because of reasons". Yeah, that was a good start...




Urm, yeah, I'm really pissed off and frustrated right now. I'll talk a walk now to cool down and later go watch "Django Unchained" to lighten up my mood. Maybe it's even for the best to not return to the BSN for a while, this toxic environment that Bioware on their part just didn't do a goob job of detoxicating over the last year.

[dreamgazer]

Grubas wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

Really, the arguments here are a no-win situation for BioWare. Based on what I've heard from the BSN in the last year, BioWare has three options:

1. BioWare continued to not say anything. They are accused of avoiding fan interaction, hiding from negativity, and not owning up to their mistakes.

2. BioWare comes in to talk to the fans. BioWare will be shouted down with the same kinds of accusations of incompetence and laziness, vitriol, and a whole lot of venting, none of which is constructive.

3. BioWare merely releases a statement about their goals or to defend the game. They would still be accused of cowardice, of trying to spin their own failure, and hiding from the fans, which they could only fix by doing the second entry in this list.

Regardless, anything said will be scrutinized, quoted, misquoted, and turned into memes just like "awesome button" and "artistic integrity." Because people aren't really looking for a conversation. They are looking for someone to vent their frustrations and disappointments on. They are looking for BioWare to admit their mistakes and acknowledge fans' grief and disappointment. Again, not a constructive dialogue, since no one really cares by the time the next game comes out, anyway.

So Stan, as posted before, Sylvf was on the BSN and didn't face Point 2 and Point 3 of your list . Despite that she was the writer for Liara, aka "stalking" Liara, and people accusing bw for forcing this character upon them. 
No venom has been spilled upon her. 
Can you explain that? 

Are you suggesting that the person who fleshed out Liara's dialogue and scenarios will be regarded with the same respect as those who constructed the central plot that has been picked clean and criticized mercilessly over the past year? The head writers who many members of the community have asked to be fired?

[JamesFaith]

dreamgazer wrote...

Grubas wrote...

So Stan, as posted before, Sylvf was on the BSN and didn't face Point 2 and Point 3 of your list . Despite that she was the writer for Liara, aka "stalking" Liara, and people accusing bw for forcing this character upon them. 
No venom has been spilled upon her. 
Can you explain that? 

Are you suggesting that the person who fleshed out Liara's dialogue and scenarios will be regarded with the same respect as those who constructed the central plot that has been picked clean and criticized mercilessly over the past year? The head writers who many members of the community have asked to be fired?

Yeap.

Comparing Sylvf's thread with theoretic thread of Hudson and Walters is same like saying, that cameraman from Prometheus would be accepted by fans of Aliens same way like main scenarist Lindelof.

[RocketManSR2]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Really, the arguments here are a no-win situation for BioWare. Based on what I've heard from the BSN in the last year, BioWare has three options:

1. BioWare continued to not say anything. They are accused of avoiding fan interaction, hiding from negativity, and not owning up to their mistakes.

(1) 2. BioWare comes in to talk to the fans. BioWare will be shouted down with the same kinds of accusations of incompetence and laziness, vitriol, and a whole lot of venting, none of which is constructive.

3. BioWare merely releases a statement about their goals or to defend the game. They would still be accused of cowardice, of trying to spin their own failure, and hiding from the fans, which they could only fix by doing the second entry in this list.

Regardless, anything said will be scrutinized, quoted, misquoted, and turned into memes just like "awesome button" and "artistic integrity." Because (2) people aren't really looking for a conversation. They are looking for someone to vent their frustrations and disappointments on. They are looking for BioWare to admit their mistakes and acknowledge fans' grief and disappointment. Again, not a constructive dialogue, since no one really cares by the time the next game comes out, anyway.

(1) No, it's not, but not everyone on this board will do that. I won't. (2) Second thing there I disagree with is that a lot of us are looking for a conversation and some honest answers without the PR bulls***. Even if we don't like what we hear (or have confirmed what we feared, i.e. a badly rushed ending) at least it would be something. BioWare has let it's fanbase sit and stew for a long time, just bickering amongst ourselves. Tbh, they have set themselves up for a negative reaction. I would not be one of them, I'm tired of it all, but some real answers would be nice. It seems Shepard isn't the only one that would have liked some closure with regards to ME3.

- I agree with TRJD about your last sentence. That was a pretty ugly statement, Stan. The new CoD audience might not care, but we do, or at least some of us used to. We wouldn't be here if we didn't. Is that how BioWare really feels about this? I know you aren't with the company anymore, but is that really the current sentiment? No, I won't fly into a rage, I'm just sad if that's the case. Heh, so that was the real purpose of the ME4 sticky that was started, to make people begin to focus on ME4 instead of the shortcomings of 3. "Changing the subject" as it were.

- PM me if you don't want to post the answer on the board.

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 19 janvier 2013 - 02:36 .

[knightnblu]

The main problems with the endings has been addressed and I believe that had we had the EC DLC as the OE then all would have been fine and BioWare wouldn't have wound up with egg all over their faces. So that problem is down in my opinion.

Regarding the telling of the story we should have gotten missions like the Omega DLC that sequenced to a key objective. Each sub-mission brought you into position to achieve a much more important objective and as you progress the resistance grows more stiff. We got that with the Krogans and the Quarians, but nowhere else.

When I was complaining about Shepard and the Normandy not using Shep's spec ops training and the Normandy's stealth capability, that is what I meant. That's why many people didn't feel like the galaxy was locked into a fight for survival because they were running around scanning for artifacts and the like when they should have been fighting.

We found assets and the like, but where was the behind the lines enemy actions? Where was the rescue of key personnel because they were in danger of being captured? Where were the ops that were compromised by indoctrinated personnel? Nope, it was all Cerberus, all the time. TIM went from being a modest pain in the ass to the sole source of evil in the galaxy second only to the Reapers and we fought him and not the Reapers because ostensibly we couldn't win against the Reapers. Yet we beat them several times in the past. Go figure.

Where was the multistage missions that used Shepard to his maximum abilities like on the Collector base? Nope, all we got was the anti-climactic ending that was a let down because the Reapers just lay down and die for us thereby robbing us of victory. Hoorah.

But this has grown long and these issues will likely never be addressed.

[Reorte]

Ninja Stan wrote...
 Because people aren't really looking for a conversation. They are looking for someone to vent their frustrations and disappointments on. They are looking for BioWare to admit their mistakes and acknowledge fans' grief and disappointment. Again, not a constructive dialogue, since no one really cares by the time the next game comes out, anyway.

And what is wrong with wanting mistakes to be admitted? Refusing to admit them dooms them to be repeated and surely you should face the fact that you have caused grief and disappointment. Perhaps BW still don't think they've made mistakes but we've not even been given a defence of them. This is sounding depressingly like trying to find excuses to avoid even thinking about the issues. The game has caused grief and disappointment - why? To take this to extremes you could punch someone and then refuse to pay any attention to their complaints because they're making them angrily. In fact if people aren't reacting at least a little bit emotionally then there's probably not all that much of an issue. The fact that the emotions have been stirred up so much is very, very strong evidence that there's something you need to be addressing, not finding exucses to dismiss. After all, it works both ways - I'm sure you're quite happy to pay attention to praise from the bits that people loved.

Saying that no-one cares by the time the next game comes out is not true and appears to be just hoping that the issue will go away on its own.

[Grubas]

JamesFaith wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Grubas wrote...

So Stan, as posted before, Sylvf was on the BSN and didn't face Point 2 and Point 3 of your list . Despite that she was the writer for Liara, aka "stalking" Liara, and people accusing bw for forcing this character upon them. 
No venom has been spilled upon her. 
Can you explain that? 

Are you suggesting that the person who fleshed out Liara's dialogue and scenarios will be regarded with the same respect as those who constructed the central plot that has been picked clean and criticized mercilessly over the past year? The head writers who many members of the community have asked to be fired?

Yeap.

Comparing Sylvf's thread with theoretic thread of Hudson and Walters is same like saying, that cameraman from Prometheus would be accepted by fans of Aliens same way like main scenarist Lindelof.

Think about the complaining about Liara and take your time to read through her threads. People have their issues, some are annoyed, and still you have a civilised conversation.

Sylvf openly admits that some dialogues are bugged! See? She admits that something didnt work out as planned. She openly explains why we cant have an aditional squadmate! She's not afraid to talk about her work in a reasonable atmosphere and voice her opinion. Do people jump at her? Hardly anyone, and if, he is frown upon by the others.  
Casey Hudson, Mac Walters... But what about the other writers? Are they not interested in feedback?  
 
And i know a lot of people would like to simply talk with more devs about the game. 
Are they really so much against the wall, that they can't think of a reason to face fan feedback? If so many are indeed unhappy with the game, wouldn't it be reasonable to come forward and say something? 
Even the most forgiving of the fans have trouble defending the game, because they can only speculate. And in such a crucial time... all we get is silence.

Im confident more devs will return for ME4, but i doubt anyone will be interested in their PR-Spin. 


 

 

Modifié par Grubas, 18 janvier 2013 - 04:51 .

[RocketManSR2]

Remain silent and wait for the unhappy customers to move on. If that is the case, I don't know what to say. *Shrug* I guess I will do just that. I've got a Tali romance to get me through the trilogy again, but after that I'm probably done with ME & BioWare. 

Modifié par RocketManSR2, 18 janvier 2013 - 05:02 .

[Bob Garbage]

BioWare devs: "Too many fancy cocktail parties to attend, too little time."

I mean how the hell can one find time to discuss a game when they have to recieve another BEST GAME EVAR!11 award? WEEEEWWW BUY THE NEW N7 BEER HELMET AND STFU!!

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Really, the arguments here are a no-win situation for BioWare. Based on what I've heard from the BSN in the last year, BioWare has three options:

1. BioWare continued to not say anything. They are accused of avoiding fan interaction, hiding from negativity, and not owning up to their mistakes.

2. BioWare comes in to talk to the fans. BioWare will be shouted down with the same kinds of accusations of incompetence and laziness, vitriol, and a whole lot of venting, none of which is constructive.

3. BioWare merely releases a statement about their goals or to defend the game. They would still be accused of cowardice, of trying to spin their own failure, and hiding from the fans, which they could only fix by doing the second entry in this list.

Regardless, anything said will be scrutinized, quoted, misquoted, and turned into memes just like "awesome button" and "artistic integrity." Because people aren't really looking for a conversation. They are looking for someone to vent their frustrations and disappointments on. They are looking for BioWare to admit their mistakes and acknowledge fans' grief and disappointment. Again, not a constructive dialogue, since no one really cares by the time the next game comes out, anyway.

In that case, it's a no win situation for fans that actally want a conversation as well. I've been waiting for about 10 months and I've only really seen someone from bioware post in here like once or twice every month and then disappear. I simply want to hear their side of the story, regardless of whether I agree with their points or not. On top of that, I along with many other fans legitmately want to help the Mass Effect team make better content through constructive discussions and feedback. But we can't if they are not willing to listen to us anymore. 

I mean, it's fine if they don't want to build their content off of feedback anymore. Though if that's now the case, they shouldn't be going around on interviews saying that they do, or else they'll be sending off the wrong message and it'll make them look bad among their fanbase. 

Right now, I am really happy with what some people from the DA team are doing on the boards. Just a month ago, I was seeing people like Gaider and Allan practically be in nearly half the threads and discussing stuff with fans. That's great stuff. I'm not saying that the Mass Effect team should do the exact same thing. Though if the ME team really wants to make their content off of our feedback, then they should at least make some attempt at communicating with their fanbase. Not just on BSN, or at conventions. But practically anywhere where fans may be talking about Mass Effect. 

[Sanunes]

Reorte wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...
 Because people aren't really looking for a conversation. They are looking for someone to vent their frustrations and disappointments on. They are looking for BioWare to admit their mistakes and acknowledge fans' grief and disappointment. Again, not a constructive dialogue, since no one really cares by the time the next game comes out, anyway.

And what is wrong with wanting mistakes to be admitted? Refusing to admit them dooms them to be repeated and surely you should face the fact that you have caused grief and disappointment. Perhaps BW still don't think they've made mistakes but we've not even been given a defence of them. This is sounding depressingly like trying to find excuses to avoid even thinking about the issues. The game has caused grief and disappointment - why? To take this to extremes you could punch someone and then refuse to pay any attention to their complaints because they're making them angrily. In fact if people aren't reacting at least a little bit emotionally then there's probably not all that much of an issue. The fact that the emotions have been stirred up so much is very, very strong evidence that there's something you need to be addressing, not finding exucses to dismiss. After all, it works both ways - I'm sure you're quite happy to pay attention to praise from the bits that people loved.

Saying that no-one cares by the time the next game comes out is not true and appears to be just hoping that the issue will go away on its own.

The problem is they don't consider the ending to be a mistake and thats what people want to hear. I am pretty sure they would admit they made other mistakes, but if they post anything like that people will swarm to the thread demanding the appologize for an ending that BioWare doesn't see a problem with. Yes she does admit to bugs with the dialogue, but if people here were demanding she appologize for Liara being included in Mass Effect 3 or her last interaction with Shepard I don't think that would happen.

[Reorte]

Sanunes wrote...

The problem is they don't consider the ending to be a mistake and thats what people want to hear. I am pretty sure they would admit they made other mistakes, but if they post anything like that people will swarm to the thread demanding the appologize for an ending that BioWare doesn't see a problem with. Yes she does admit to bugs with the dialogue, but if people here were demanding she appologize for Liara being included in Mass Effect 3 or her last interaction with Shepard I don't think that would happen.

I think that that's sadly true and I think a lot less of them because of it.

[Grubas]

Sanunes wrote...

The problem is they don't consider the ending to be a mistake and thats what people want to hear. I am pretty sure they would admit they made other mistakes, but if they post anything like that people will swarm to the thread demanding the appologize for an ending that BioWare doesn't see a problem with. Yes she does admit to bugs with the dialogue, but if people here were demanding she appologize for Liara being included in Mass Effect 3 or her last interaction with Shepard I don't think that would happen.

Look Mac and Casey are adults. Adults know how to face criticism, or talk with people who have a different opinion. 
This is why "toxic environment" is a joke as much as "vocal minority" and other nonsense discrediting the fans. 
Every overreaction from the fans is just a comfortable excuse for Mike & co. to avoid the real questions.

There is a discrepancy regarding Pre-developer statements and the game we got, and there is a discrepancy regarding the quality of the game compared with past products. And last but not least there is a huge discrepancy regarding media reception, and fan-reception of the game.

I would say this are the real reasons why devs dont want to talk. And this is sad. 

[Kabooooom]

Everything that is a problem with ME3 has already been addressed. It is beating a dead horse, at this point. Bioware ignored the issues that were difficult to fix, fixed some issues that were easy to fix, and half-assed others. That's the best we are going to get at this point. No use arguing about it anymore.

But, I think "constructive" discussions are still useful in the sense that it may direct the path of development for ME4. I think we should primarily discuss what they should/shouldn't do with ME4 at this point. They listened to the most vocal (and most incorrect) of fans after ME2, which altered the way they made ME3 in some areas. There's no reason to think they won't listen now.