390 réponses à ce sujet

[3DandBeyond]

My main issue at this point does come down to a real win type ending with proper closure (always wanted that along with a real hard to take full on loss, both very emotional) with it stemming from all that I did in the games and not some random, half-baked contrived choice.


Future suggestions:
Don't create character types you have no intention of following through on.
Don't create character dialogue you have no intention of giving meaning to at the end.
Don't create choices that are supposed to mean something at the end, if the only choices that matter at the end are the ones a character makes at the end.
Don't create emotion and relationships in a story if you have no intention of any of that mattering from game to game, or within even one game at a certain point.
Don't create emotion at all within a game if you intend to flush it all in the toilet at the end.
Don't create a trilogy with choices that carry through from game to game, if the choices don't have any real impact on anything else in the game. Collector Base I'm looking at you.
Don't create a darker atmosphere in a game that was never seen as all that dark.
Don't abandon major themes of a story in favor of some more pseudo-intellectual pursuit.
Don't copy major portions of other games if you have no intention of making it fit in your story.
Don't say that nothing is canon, because that makes it impossible to create any right or wrong scenario-poop or get off the toilet and make a decision about what is best to do in a given situation, because not all decisions are equally good.
Don't insulate yourselves from all criticism. Sure, some is destructive, but even poorly worded requests do have merit.
Don't ignore what was best about the games and adhere to some mundane carbon copy of other FPSs. You had real potential here and lost your way. Find the way back again. Remember what made your games unique and good and do that.
Do remember your version of the RPG is uniquely your own. Make it that, tell your story and remember that story.
In a story about war and the possible extinction of all life in the galaxy, people want to be playing the game, not watching a new character tell a story. Use the epilog for an epilog, not the part of the story where it all should be coming to a point, where the conflict should be the greatest, and players should be intensely involved in saving the galaxy. I could have fallen asleep at the end, if it wasn't for the fact I kept waking myself up by saying, "WTF".
KISS. Keep It Simple Stupid. Sometimes, the least convoluted route is the best. The kid at the end added confusion. He wasn't smart or intellectual. Want to apply logic? Use real logic.

Keep your promises. Stand by what you say or admit what you wanted to do would never have worked. Talk more with fans and less with advertisers. Don't believe your own press releases.

[Kabooooom]

Keep your promises. Stand by what you say or admit what you wanted to do would never have worked. Talk more with fans and less with advertisers. Don't believe your own press releases.

This is a big one I think. When they aren't honest or try to sell the fans BS (most of which are intelligent enough to see right through it), people feel that is disrespectful. It alienates fans.

To their credit, they were 100% upfront about what Omega would and wouldn't be before it came out. Unfortunately some naive folks still didn't believe it. But they were honest. I like to think they have learned from their past PR mistakes.

Modifié par Kabooooom, 18 janvier 2013 - 08:11 .

[Grubas]

3DandBeyond wrote...

snip .

If you really want to engage in a dialogue and have a list this long, do chose 2-3 most important points. Not that i disagree... It was a long enough time that everyone makes up his own mind. 


I guess engaging the fanbase after such a long absence dosn't work in biowares favor Though it was avoidable.  *shrug

[Reorte]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Future suggestions:
Don't....

IMO the most important thing is "Don't value style over substance." I really, really feel like there was a decision, perhaps not even voiced, that it was OK for stuff to look cool and the plot is only there to give somewhere to plonk it, that it doesn't really matter whether it makes sense or not. So it's fine to chuck in ideas that are far-fetched or downright impossible as long as they look good. I find this very depressing, particularly because that seems rather in contrast to how Mass Effect started out. There was originally a lot of effort put into making things try to make sense and be consistent. That sort of attention to detail was all part of the appeal.

[Optimus J]

Ninja Stan wrote...
Regardless, anything said will be scrutinized, quoted, misquoted, and turned into memes just like "awesome button" and "artistic integrity." Because people aren't really looking for a conversation. They are looking for someone to vent their frustrations and disappointments on. They are looking for BioWare to admit their mistakes and acknowledge fans' grief and disappointment. Again, not a constructive dialogue, since no one really cares by the time the next game comes out, anyway.

I really hope you're talking about YOUR people there. Bioware is avoiding conversation for years, now.

They STAGED a conversation on DA3, and soon quit that. Now it's back to "MY WAY".

[Sam Anders]

I liked the whole game except the last 15 minutes really.

Adding more to the Refusal ending with the next DLC (last DLC?) allowing you to succeed if you've done enough... That'd make the game for me. I'd pay for that. That's it, that's all I want really.

[Iakus]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

Really, the arguments here are a no-win situation for BioWare. Based on what I've heard from the BSN in the last year, BioWare has three options:

1. BioWare continued to not say anything. They are accused of avoiding fan interaction, hiding from negativity, and not owning up to their mistakes.

2. BioWare comes in to talk to the fans. BioWare will be shouted down with the same kinds of accusations of incompetence and laziness, vitriol, and a whole lot of venting, none of which is constructive.

3. BioWare merely releases a statement about their goals or to defend the game. They would still be accused of cowardice, of trying to spin their own failure, and hiding from the fans, which they could only fix by doing the second entry in this list.

Regardless, anything said will be scrutinized, quoted, misquoted, and turned into memes just like "awesome button" and "artistic integrity." Because people aren't really looking for a conversation. They are looking for someone to vent their frustrations and disappointments on. They are looking for BioWare to admit their mistakes and acknowledge fans' grief and disappointment. Again, not a constructive dialogue, since no one really cares by the time the next game comes out, anyway.

Okay, this post... I guess I should really finally just give up trying to be constructive and reasonable, because obviously it doesn't amount to ****. It's just... it's seriously frustrating. You as well as the whole of Bioware are doing this extremely obnoxious thing were you lump everyone on the BSN together and say it's impossible to have any dialogue at all here and therefore there is no need to even think about trying. There are these funny things like site rules and moderators and community managers and such, one might think that it should be possible to use all these to make a dialogue happen. Look at the Sylvf thread that was linked eralier in this thread - what was that and how was it even possible?

So it's a problem that people look reeeeally closely at everything Bioware employees say? Can't possibly have been made worse by, I don't know, the one or two instances of ME3 devs saying things that sounded pretty specific and that later turned out to be very unfortunate misunderstandings on our part. Rachni, ABC endings, galactic wasteland, whatever. I hope folks at Bioware have analyzed why fans were so up in arms against the "artistic integretiy" thing. It's also great that you know what "people" are looking for or not, and that you think fans are somehow wrong in wanting their grief and disappointment at least acknowledged. I mean, yeah, it's only been, what, at least 90+ hours of playtime, quite some dollars and in some cases a few years of being a dedicated fan that people put into Mass Effect - why should they be given the feeling they're being taken seriously?

Your last sentence... urgh. It's just not pretty, regardless of wether you're talking about the fans or the devs themselves. If that's the official line of thinking at Bioware, and it does seem so, well... good luck! Since I can't make definite statements past my own feelings, and can provide only anecdotal evidence we'll just have to wait and see. But this attitude, although there surely is a lot of truth in it, just sickens and alienates me.

Damn, I was even completely determined to let every bit of my anger and disappointment with Bioware and their "communication" go and to just start fresh with the beginning of the new year. Entrance Chris Priestly: "Public discussion of IT shall be forbidden from this day forth because of reasons". Yeah, that was a good start...




Urm, yeah, I'm really pissed off and frustrated right now. I'll talk a walk now to cool down and later go watch "Django Unchained" to lighten up my mood. Maybe it's even for the best to not return to the BSN for a while, this toxic environment that Bioware on their part just didn't do a goob job of detoxicating over the last year.

Agreed.

There have been an number of attempts to have calm and constructive discussions about why the game was dissapointing.  Sure there have been some rabblerousers, but 1) there has been plenty of thoughtful takes as well and 2) a nonsmall portion of said rabblerousers have been pro-ending posters trolling the threads as well 

So please don't paint us all with such a wide brush.  That road just continues the cycle of destruction.

I for one really appreciate it in the DA forums when developers step in and explain something about the game. Even if they can't reveal too much about it.  I may not always agree with their line of thinking, but I appreciate that they took the time to at least try to explain it and treat the forumgoers as adults.  Maybe not everyone is as appreciative, but I respect them all the more for encouraging discussion, rather than stifling it.

[Reorte]

Sam Anders wrote...

I liked the whole game except the last 15 minutes really.

It's pretty much the same for me. Sure, it had its problems before then but it was still fun enough that they didn't completely ruin everything.

[Sam Anders]

Reorte wrote...

Sam Anders wrote...

I liked the whole game except the last 15 minutes really.

It's pretty much the same for me. Sure, it had its problems before then but it was still fun enough that they didn't completely ruin everything.

Right. Almost every complaint I have about early/mid game is fairly nitpicky honestly. It was a solid 8.5/10 at least until the ending I think. I could rate the game a 9 or better if the ending was someday fixed.

[chemiclord]

Stan and I had this sort of argument before. While I understand where he (and Bioware) is coming from, I disagreed it was the right answer, and I still do.

Yes, there are going to be vapid, venomous clowns who only want to scream, hurl accusations, and demand to be catered to. Yes, there are idiots who are going to refuse to be mollified, and will cry and whine and complain over the tiniest detail until they get everything they want and nothing they don't.

IGNORE THEM. By saying nothing, that's what spreads the poison and leads to the toxic environment. By going silent, all you do is let the trolls run wild.  Silence was not, is not, and never will be, the answer.

Modifié par chemiclord, 19 janvier 2013 - 02:56 .

[Iakus]

chemiclord wrote...

Stan and I had this sort of argument before. While I understand where he (and Bioware) is coming from, I disagreed it was the right answer, and I still do.

Yes, there are going to be vapid, venomous clowns who only want to scream, hurl accusations, and demand to be catered to. Yes, there are idiots who are going to refuse to be mollified, and will cry and whine and complain over the tiniest detail until they get everything they want and nothing they don't.

IGNORE THEM. By saying nothing, that's what spreads the poison and leads to the toxic environment. By going silent, all you do is let the trolls run wild.  Silence was not, is not, and never will be, the answer.

OMG, we agree on something!

Yes, it's silence that causes the anger to fester, and contributes to the forums' "toxcisity"

[Ninja Stan]

Then here's a suggestion:

When you see a dev actively participating in discussion, when you see them answer questions, or if they've engaged you in lively debate, be sure you treat them well when you participate in that discussion. By that, I don't mean be obsequious or fawning or sycophantic. You don't have to kiss their butt or agree with everything they say. Heck, you don't even have to like them. But demonstrate, through word or your actions, that you appreciate what they do. It can be what they do for their job or what they're doing in the forum. Just treat them well, because that will encourage them to keep coming back.

Some examples of "treating devs well":
- agree to disagree if you can't convince them you're right
- know the communications restrictions they're under and what they can and can't talk about
- be respectful. you're the one asking them for information, after all
- encourage others in the thread to be respectful, and report those who aren't
- rein in your natural tendency to be sarcastic. Sarcasm doesn't necessarily carry well over text
- rein in your use of memes, especially if you're disagreeing. Memes are meant to be sarcastic, and I've already talked about sarcasm
- you're (probably) not an investigative journalist. "Gotcha" questions or comments will probably not be taken well. That said, sincere questions on issues you actually want to know more about are fine.
- accept "no" as an answer
- accept that your question may not be addressed
- don't say anything you wouldn't legitimately say to them in public (where security is within arm's reach)
- follow Wheaton's Law (and "Be excellent to each other.)

[Indy_S]

Yes, follow Bill and Ted's Law.

Do you have any idea how likely it is to see a dev so we can treat them well?

[Iakus]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Then here's a suggestion:

When you see a dev actively participating in discussion, when you see them answer questions, or if they've engaged you in lively debate, be sure you treat them well when you participate in that discussion. By that, I don't mean be obsequious or fawning or sycophantic. You don't have to kiss their butt or agree with everything they say. Heck, you don't even have to like them. But demonstrate, through word or your actions, that you appreciate what they do. It can be what they do for their job or what they're doing in the forum. Just treat them well, because that will encourage them to keep coming back.

Some examples of "treating devs well":
- agree to disagree if you can't convince them you're right
- know the communications restrictions they're under and what they can and can't talk about
- be respectful. you're the one asking them for information, after all
- encourage others in the thread to be respectful, and report those who aren't
- rein in your natural tendency to be sarcastic. Sarcasm doesn't necessarily carry well over text
- rein in your use of memes, especially if you're disagreeing. Memes are meant to be sarcastic, and I've already talked about sarcasm
- you're (probably) not an investigative journalist. "Gotcha" questions or comments will probably not be taken well. That said, sincere questions on issues you actually want to know more about are fine.
- accept "no" as an answer
- accept that your question may not be addressed
- don't say anything you wouldn't legitimately say to them in public (where security is within arm's reach)
- follow Wheaton's Law (and "Be excellent to each other.)

All good advice.

And I'd like to think I follow those rules on those rare 9but awesome) moments where I can address a dev on teh DA forums.

However, there have been precious few opportunities to practice that here.

[Legbiter]

[inappropriate post removed]

Modifié par Ninja Stan, 19 janvier 2013 - 04:32 .

[Iakus]

 See, that's something I'd never sy to a dev 

[Legbiter]

Go out and live. get drunk, kiss a girl, punch a guy, read a book, etc.

[Sundance31us]

I'd also recommend not posting right away when you know your temper is up.

Open Notepad and type your first response, but don't post. Wait for a bit and do something else. When you have calmed down a bit edit or retype your response and then post it.

Know when to walk way (figuratively speaking) and not post at all.

[Indy_S]

Legbiter wrote...

Go out and live. get drunk, kiss a girl, punch a guy, read a book, etc.

I wish I could follow Sundance's advice and not post this, but come on. When it comes to constructive discussions, this kind of comment is not welcome. It more or less is a complaint about a complaint. As you seem to enjoy browsing the forum because it is so hilariously sad, why exactly are you complaining about complaining?

[Legbiter]

My comment was aimed at iakus. You wanna feel included, go right ahead.

[Iakus]

Sundance31us wrote...

Know when to walk way (figuratively speaking) and not post at all.

indeed

[Ninja Stan]

Sundance31us wrote...

I'd also recommend not posting right away when you know your temper is up.

Open Notepad and type your first response, but don't post. Wait for a bit and do something else. When you have calmed down a bit edit or retype your response and then post it.

Know when to walk way (figuratively speaking) and not post at all.

Even when posting my last response to this thread, I wrote responses to three separate posts before deciding against it. The responses just sounded snarky, they wouldn't have been productive, and other posts since have said basically what I would have wanted to say.

Having dealt with the BioWare online community for 11 years, I've had to learn the hard way. You guys get Moderator warnings and temporary bans when you get a little too heated. As a BioWarian, I got meetings with managers and department heads when I got too heated.

[Fawx9]

john_sheparrd wrote...

^ I think the blind hate mentality and just insulting the developers (not really constructive criticsm) is a pretty good reason for them to stay away from BSN

No this is no where near blind hate and constant insults to the developers. There's name calling, jearing and passoniate feedback. Something I consider much different. If you want examples of blind hate go to LoL boards aor for that matter Diablo 3 boards right now. That's an example of blind hate and douchbaggery. But you know what it also has, peopler from both sides still trying to make a difference and talk through it.

Rundown: Diablo 3 came out last year and was one of the most anticipated titles for a game ever. Guess what? it failed to meet a good many expectations. And not just in a small 15 minute chunk. The game shipped with all kinds of class imabalnces, level imbalances and a completly messed up gearing system, the thing the game is supposed to be based around. Did I mention that their always online servers were crashing the first week the game was released?

One thing I'll give the D3 team and Blizzard, at least they are trying. For the past 8 months there's been disscussions when possible with the fanbase. They're have been cooling off periods but every so often you get a fury of information that things are being fixed and feedback has been noted and discussed. Sounds good right? Nope. The lead designer quit this week to pursue other avenues. And in good old internet fashion the fansbase layed into him. Not for leaving the game half way through, but cheering his depature and basically kicking him out the door.

That's blind hate and vile. But you know what, Blizzard came back and dealt with people anyways. Through up a new test realm for more changes and kept discussing things with people that maintained some sembalance of a real person.

What does this have to do with the topic ?

I'm not trying to tell the people at Bioware that they should just put up with crap cause it's the internet. There is some horrible stuff that was said. But damn, at least make some attempt like Allan(DA team) and a few others did before. I know things aren't all fluffy and rainbows here, but it can be so much worse as pointed out, and I don;t want to see it get to that.

Sometimes you just need to bite the bullet and wade into the mess and hope that you can at least clean some of it up. Being quite isn't helping the community at all. Like the OP said, it's been the same damn topics everyday for nearly the past year. If we at least had another perspective on things it wouldn't feel like this board is made up of two groups of weak people trying to strangle each other to death.

I still see hope for this place, just wish I could say the same thing about the Dev's feelings on it.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Then here's a suggestion:

When you see a dev actively participating in discussion, when you see them answer questions, or if they've engaged you in lively debate, be sure you treat them well when you participate in that discussion. By that, I don't mean be obsequious or fawning or sycophantic. You don't have to kiss their butt or agree with everything they say. Heck, you don't even have to like them. But demonstrate, through word or your actions, that you appreciate what they do. It can be what they do for their job or what they're doing in the forum. Just treat them well, because that will encourage them to keep coming back.

Some examples of "treating devs well":
- agree to disagree if you can't convince them you're right
- know the communications restrictions they're under and what they can and can't talk about
- be respectful. you're the one asking them for information, after all
- encourage others in the thread to be respectful, and report those who aren't
- rein in your natural tendency to be sarcastic. Sarcasm doesn't necessarily carry well over text
- rein in your use of memes, especially if you're disagreeing. Memes are meant to be sarcastic, and I've already talked about sarcasm
- you're (probably) not an investigative journalist. "Gotcha" questions or comments will probably not be taken well. That said, sincere questions on issues you actually want to know more about are fine.
- accept "no" as an answer
- accept that your question may not be addressed
- don't say anything you wouldn't legitimately say to them in public (where security is within arm's reach)
- follow Wheaton's Law (and "Be excellent to each other.)

It's good advice to follow, and to continue following in my case. I've always attempted to be civil and respectful to people from bioware, whether it be Jessica, Chris, or Jos. So I find it disheartening that bioware in general now wants to cut off most communication with fans as a whole because of potential trolls and heavy tempered people. 

Sure, there were some things in ME3 that I really did not like and thought soured the experience as a whole. But I would feel better about it if I learned the other side of the story and talk to them about it, and not run around the forums with firey torches and pitchforks. Like I said, I want to help bioware out whenever they say that they want fan feedback. But, they have to attempt to open up communication again. Because if they keep going around in interviews saying stuff that fans "co-write" their games for them, but don't make an attempt at gathering or addressing the most common complaints and feedback, then you know that it's not a true statement.

[CronoDragoon]

Optimus J wrote...
I really hope you're talking about YOUR people there. Bioware is avoiding conversation for years, now.

They STAGED a conversation on DA3, and soon quit that. Now it's back to "MY WAY".

If you're trying to imply he's wrong about BSN users, I disagree. The "conversation" that a lot of people on this board want to have is BioWare admitting they are wrong and groveling at the BSN's feet. If Mac Walters came on here and gave his reasons for why he chose these endings, immediately the response threads would be "YOU CANT BE SERIOUS" or "THEY HAVE LEARNED NOTHING"

The "conversation" that would take place are a bunch of loud fans who want to conquer BioWare's opinion drowning out people who might have legitimate questions about the endings. At that point it isn't just BioWare that wants to just avoid coming here: I wouldn't want to see that thread either.