390 réponses à ce sujet

[Indy_S]

Maybe, but I'd like to see their reasons. The "conversation" is just as likely to be a bunch of legitimate questions about the whole game and some loud complainers that would undoubtedly anger the moderators. Then there's the loud supporters, you can't forget them.

[CronoDragoon]

I wouldn't mind seeing their reasons, but I don't expect them nor believe BW needs to give them. And they certainly don't need to tolerate flaming in order to do so.

I don't see much benefit to official reasons at this point. There have been plenty of threads supporting the endings, and anything BW is likely to say will coincide with a reason already given. In that case, repeating or confirming a certain viewpoint is only going to anger people who want to be angered.

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 19 janvier 2013 - 06:52 .

[chemiclord]

Pretty much.

What Bioware WANTED to say wasn't particularly difficult... and what they were TRYING to do wasn't some big secret as well. But the fact that it needed so much bridging between the logical chasms in their presentation was the biggest failing.

[Indy_S]

Tolerating flaming is a part of maintaining a community, any community in fact. Blind disagreement always exists. However, constructive disagreement will exist simultaneously.

As to the benefit, re-establishing a relationship with the fanbase is perhaps the best reason for it. If it coincides with the reasons some of the fans like the game, that's fine with me. But I'd like more than just reasons they like it, I'd like to see what parts they didn't like, hear what was disputed about it, learn what they think they would do differently if given the chance (I'm not proposing they do those things).

Basically, I want a discussion like the one writer who http://www.gameranx....versial-ending' class='bbc_url' title='Lien externe' rel='nofollow external'> posted once on Penny Arcade. He admits that the turret in Priority: Earth is something he dislikes because "nothing happens here"ness that it points out.

Modifié par Indy_S, 19 janvier 2013 - 07:17 .

[CronoDragoon]

Indy_S wrote...

Tolerating flaming is a part of maintaining a community, any community in fact. Blind disagreement always exists. However, constructive disagreement will exist simultaneously.

BioWare does not have to tolerate any flaming. The only reason they might come here is because they like talking about their games. If they don't derive enjoyment from coming here, then there's no reason to come here. They don't owe the fans anything.

[Indy_S]

Then they are not maintaining the community. This is what has inspired the talk of a 'toxic environment' here. Fans can shift the toxic air if only the maintenance was done. And that was a very strained metaphor-pun sentence.

[chemiclord]

Indy_S isn't wrong.

Flaming is inevitable, even if 99% of the fanbase thinks a product is the most awesome thing in the history of ever, there's going to be that 1% that complains, and they are most likely going to complain very loudly.

You ignore them. You don't let them run you off.

[CronoDragoon]

It is not the responsibility of the writers to maintain the BioWare Social Network. That is not in their job description, and any interaction is done willfully by them. The toxic environment on this board is the fault of the members, not BioWare.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

chemiclord wrote...

Indy_S isn't wrong.

Flaming is inevitable, even if 99% of the fanbase thinks a product is the most awesome thing in the history of ever, there's going to be that 1% that complains, and they are most likely going to complain very loudly.

You ignore them. You don't let them run you off.

This applies to practically everywhere. Not just BSN. That doesn't mean that you should just be as silent to your fanbase as possible. Just do your best, and we'll try to do our best.

[Indy_S]

CronoDragoon wrote...

It is not the responsibility of the writers to maintain the BioWare Social Network. That is not in their job description, and any interaction is done willfully by them. The toxic environment on this board is the fault of the members, not BioWare.

And the toxic nature of the forum members is the result of being humans. Any community has toxic elements. But these communities will have constructive and supportive elements as well. And I'm not talking about just the writers. I'm talking about members of the entire dev team participating in discussions about their work. Engaging themselves in the community is not a part of their job description. It doesn't have to be done. But it is rewarded by constructive criticism.

[CronoDragoon]

chemiclord wrote...

Indy_S isn't wrong.

Flaming is inevitable, even if 99% of the fanbase thinks a product is the most awesome thing in the history of ever, there's going to be that 1% that complains, and they are most likely going to complain very loudly.

You ignore them. You don't let them run you off.

Ignoring people sounds a lot easier than it is.

Where is all the hullaballoo at the lack of interaction between all game developers/writers/directors that don't field fan questions on online forums? Or is BioWare held to a larger standard of conduct because they were more willing to reach out in the first place?

[CronoDragoon]

Indy_S wrote...
And the toxic nature of the forum members is the result of being humans. Any community has toxic elements. But these communities will have constructive and supportive elements as well.

Yes, they do, but it's a sliding scale. At some point it's simply not worth it to participate. It seems the dev team has reached that point, and I don't see how any of us have the right to say otherwise. 

And I'm not talking about just the writers. I'm talking about members of the entire dev team participating in discussions about their work. Engaging themselves in the community is not a part of their job description. It doesn't have to be done. But it is rewarded by constructive criticism.

They can read your criticism just fine silently and, if its constructive, implement it. Notice how many of the EC changes were things brought up multiple times on the BSN?

Modifié par CronoDragoon, 19 janvier 2013 - 08:01 .

[Indy_S]

ChronoDragoon wrote...

Is BioWare held to a larger standard of conduct because they were more willing to reach out in the first place?

Yes, it is more jarring that they receded from their fans.

Yes, they do, but it's a sliding scale. At some point it's simply not worth it to participate. It seems the dev team has reached that point, and I don't see how any of us have the right to say otherwise.

I'll argue that there is never a point where that becomes true aside from when it is all toxic. Effort is always put into a constructive argument and if BioWare and the fans need to have a little more effort, then that is what it'll take.

That's a moot point, since it's also punished by unconstructive criticism. Moreover, they can read your criticism just fine silently and, if its constructive, implement it. Notice how many of the EC changes were things brought up multiple times on the BSN?

Yes unconstructive criticism exists. That's why I don't complain that 'the endings are s***'. That is not, however, punishing the work. What you're talking about is constructive criticism that is opposed to the desire of the majority. As to their ability to read the criticism silently, yes they can. That is not engaging the fan base though. Being able to justify their decisions is as much a part of a constructive discussion as the issue taken with it.

[CronoDragoon]

[quote]Indy_S wrote...

Yes, it is more jarring that they receded from their fans.[/quote]

Which should make you question just how jarred they must have felt when so many fans turned on them.
[quote]I'll argue that there is never a point where that becomes true aside from when it is all toxic. Effort is always put into a constructive argument and if BioWare and the fans need to have a little more effort, then that is what it'll take.[/quote]Again, feel free to post constructive criticism. They haven't taken down the BSN permanently or anything.

[quote]Yes unconstructive criticism exists. That's why I don't complain that 'the endings are s***'. That is not, however, punishing the work. What you're talking about is constructive criticism that is opposed to the desire of the majority. As to their ability to read the criticism silently, yes they can. That is not engaging the fan base though. Being able to justify their decisions is as much a part of a constructive discussion as the issue taken with it.[/quote]No, what I'm talking about is most definitely NOT "constructive criticism that is opposed to the desire of the majority."

They don't have to justify their decisions. If you like their decisions, great; if you don't then post why and maybe they'll get a chance to read it. Responses from devs should never be taken for granted.

[/quote]

[chemiclord]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Ignoring people sounds a lot easier than it is.

Where is all the hullaballoo at the lack of interaction between all game developers/writers/directors that don't field fan questions on online forums? Or is BioWare held to a larger standard of conduct because they were more willing to reach out in the first place?

I am actually quite well aware about how hard it really is.

But it is inevitable nonetheless.  You HAVE to have a VERY thick skin if you're a creator, otherwise you're a mess of stress and negative emotions.  It's something that you have to accept, that it WILL happen, there's nothing you can do about it, and that you can't let it affect you.  SOMEONE is going to hate.  SOMEONE is going to boorish, crass and rude.

By going silent, you let the troll win.  And when the troll has free reign, this is what happens.

[Indy_S]

CronoDragoon wrote...

Yes unconstructive criticism exists. That's why I don't complain that 'the endings are s***'. That is not, however, punishing the work. What you're talking about is constructive criticism that is opposed to the desire of the majority. As to their ability to read the criticism silently, yes they can. That is not engaging the fan base though. Being able to justify their decisions is as much a part of a constructive discussion as the issue taken with it.

No, what I'm talking about is most definitely NOT "constructive criticism that is opposed to the desire of the majority."

They don't have to justify their decisions. If you like their decisions, great; if you don't then post why and maybe they'll get a chance to read it. Responses from devs should never be taken for granted.

Something unconstructive are the phrases 'I like it' or 'I don't like it' and you clearly weren't talking about those so I am wondering what unconstructive criticism would be negative to the product. Is it just that the developers will read an insult?

And for the second point, we are in a thread talking about constructive discussions in a constructive discussion. We are both justifying ourselves, offering examples and advice, maybe even influencing each others thoughts and making each other think seriously about it. This is a part of constructive discussions. Their justifications will cause as much thought by both fans and devs as the issue taken with the problem in the first place.

[Eterna]

Grubas wrote...


Well you if you want a proper developer- community dialog, you have to do something for it. 
The ME3 team just spit out a product and treats the fans like they are no longer relevant.

Incorrect, they onlty consider the BSN no longer relevant, and they are more than justified in that assertion. 

 

Again its sad that devs are to afraid to post on their own board. 

And whose fault is that? 

[Iakus]

Eterna5 wrote...

Grubas wrote...


Well you if you want a proper developer- community dialog, you have to do something for it. 
The ME3 team just spit out a product and treats the fans like they are no longer relevant.

Incorrect, they onlty consider the BSN no longer relevant, and they are more than justified in that assertion. 

 

Again its sad that devs are to afraid to post on their own board. 

And whose fault is that? 

...and now it's a party...

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

iakus wrote...

Eterna5 wrote...

Grubas wrote...


Well you if you want a proper developer- community dialog, you have to do something for it. 
The ME3 team just spit out a product and treats the fans like they are no longer relevant.

Incorrect, they onlty consider the BSN no longer relevant, and they are more than justified in that assertion. 

 

Again its sad that devs are to afraid to post on their own board. 

And whose fault is that? 

...and now it's a party...

Yeah, great. Soon this thread is going to get locked for off topicness and people flaming each other.

[Grubas]

Eterna is our link to the developers just as the pope is our link to god. Thx Eterna but i would like the people concerned to speak for themself. or not if they wish to. No offence ok?

[Indy_S]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

iakus wrote...

...and now it's a party...

Yeah, great. Soon this thread is going to get locked for off topicness and people flaming each other.

Drats. I thought we had a good thing going for a while there.

Eterna5 wrote...

Grubas wrote...

Well you if you want a proper developer- community dialog, you have to do something for it. 
The ME3 team just spit out a product and treats the fans like they are no longer relevant.

Incorrect, they onlty consider the BSN no longer relevant, and they are more than justified in that assertion. 

Again its sad that devs are to afraid to post on their own board. 

And whose fault is that? 

That, my friend, is not a very agreeable comment. Firstly, this is their official forum, it's where it's implied that the developers would have a relationship with their fans. Secondly, they took to silence from real criticism at the same time they took to silence from trolls. And finally, after ten months, they maintain their silence, an act that affects their fans indiscriminanently.

[Clayless]

Grubas wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

Yes, people are still mad at the endings. Everything else, all this bad treatment you think Bioware are giving fans, is just a delusion brought upon by a weird victim mentality. No one believes that the developers not "defending" themselves from attack is somehow bad treatment against those that are attacking them, that's just absurd.

And no.

"defending" "arguing" "talking" "engaging in conversation" "enlighten".... "actively listen" and many more..

There are many ways for devs to come here and talk with fans. Fact is nothing like this happend, and will happen.

Look. The game was  a rushed mess. The conclusion dosnt add up. There are topics the ME3 team would like to avoid. They are not willing to talk about certain parts of the game. Probably ever" They even screen questions on conventions. Others do this too. But bw specifically did it regarding "the ending". 
They just hide and wait till people forget about it. 

No matter how nice and welcoming the BSN will be they will still remain silent, and give us this PR talk.

That or BSN isn't nice and welcoming, and has the mindset that Bioware needs to come and defend themselves from attack.

[AresKeith]

@Robosexual umm Bioware is suppose to be able to handle this kind of thing, comes with the job

[Indy_S]

Robosexual, the following quote from earlier in the thread applies to you as well.

Indy_S wrote...

ChronoDragoon wrote...

They don't have to justify their decisions. If you like their decisions, great; if you don't then post why and maybe they'll get a chance to read it. Responses from devs should never be taken for granted.

We are in a thread talking about constructive discussions in a constructive discussion. We are both justifying ourselves, offering examples and advice, maybe even influencing each others thoughts and making each other think seriously about it. This is a part of constructive discussions. Their justifications will cause as much thought by both fans and devs as the issue taken with the problem in the first place.

[Ninja Stan]

CronoDragoon has said a lot of things that I agree with.

chemiclord's posts I disagree with, but as he said, we've discussed this in the past. I am happy to agree to disagree with him, yet encourage him to keep sharing his opinions. I'd also like to specifically call out iakus and Indy_S for presenting your opinions in such a civil manner. I look forward to agreeing to disagreeing with you guys, too.

The posts in this thread from people like Eterna5 and Optimus J are examples of attitudes that are best avoided if you want positive attention from the devs. While it's unfortunate that the actions of a few are making things more difficult for the rest of you, I hope you can see how it would be really easy for devs to get a really bad vibe from the discussion and hit the metaphorical Escape key.

Yeah, devs have thick skin, but no one wants to have to use it. And this is the official BioWare online community, ostensibly Bio's home base. If they can't even feel safe here, why would they risk themselves? Just because devs have, or should have, extremely high tolerances is not and should not be an excuse for people to act like monkeypantses. This is why Rules #1-4 are written and ordered the way they are.

EDIT to add: We as adults should be able to hear profanity and expletives without freaking out about it. That does not mean that we have to accept other people screaming those words in our faces. It is not thin-skinned to refuse to deal with people who just want to yell at you, especially in your own house/school, your place of work or your own business, or even on the street.

Modifié par Ninja Stan, 19 janvier 2013 - 09:20 .