390 réponses à ce sujet

[liggy002]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

So it's been almost a year since release, and many of us have different complaints when it comes to what they wanted to see in ME3, and what they want to see in future DLC.

But so far, the most common complaints are:

1- Lack of proper closure in endings.

2- Lack of Harbringer and collectors.

3- Better handling of ME2 character and possibly additional squadmates.

4- Lack of hub worlds

I've been seeing these complaints more than any others. People have been discussing these issues more than any others. There are some people that go off the wire and end up being more really immature and uncivil. But there have been a lot of constructive discussions about these as well.

But the problem is that to me, Bioware seems to be completely apathetic about these issues. They repeatedly stated that they don't want to provide anymore closure for the endings. I'm pretty sure they said that they have no plans to add additional hub worlds and squadmates. Nor do they seem to have interest in the ME2 characters along with Harbringer and the collectors.

So my question is not just to bioware but to everyone, what's left to talk about here? We're being asked by bioware to have "constructive" discussions about these issues, yet how can any of this be remotely constructive if the other side has a lack of enthusiasm and interest for those topics in the first place?

And to Bioware? What exactly do you want us to do in these forums? Because all that's left is people repeating the same things from the very beginning, along with people providing positive and negative constructive criticism that really hasn't been addressed in any way yet.

Precisely, you hit the nail on the head.  The fact that some of the criticism is destructive is neither here nor there.  There are some people who voice their criticism in a civil manner.  My question to Bioware is, like you, why haven't any of these complaints been addressed in the DLC thus far?

[Grubas]

Dear Stan,
This thread. Does it not disprove your assertion? Your here, talking with us.

Its pretty balanced dont you agree?

Its exactly the same with the threads Sylvf was participating in. People calm down on their own.

Really most of the time its enough that someone comes over and communicates his point of view in a genuine fashion.
It would calm down the majority of the fans. Help people understand. You might disagree, but to be honest do you have a living example, a counterargument to threads like this?

Did a dev come here to talk, and has been nothing but spit upon? Its just a confusing fear, nothing more.

We don't bite.

Modifié par Grubas, 19 janvier 2013 - 11:13 .

[liggy002]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

So it's been almost a year since release, and many of us have different complaints when it comes to what they wanted to see in ME3, and what they want to see in future DLC.

But so far, the most common complaints are:

1- Lack of proper closure in endings.

2- Lack of Harbringer and collectors.

3- Better handling of ME2 character and possibly additional squadmates.

4- Lack of hub worlds

I've been seeing these complaints more than any others. People have been discussing these issues more than any others. There are some people that go off the wire and end up being more really immature and uncivil. But there have been a lot of constructive discussions about these as well.

But the problem is that to me, Bioware seems to be completely apathetic about these issues. They repeatedly stated that they don't want to provide anymore closure for the endings. I'm pretty sure they said that they have no plans to add additional hub worlds and squadmates. Nor do they seem to have interest in the ME2 characters along with Harbringer and the collectors.

So my question is not just to bioware but to everyone, what's left to talk about here? We're being asked by bioware to have "constructive" discussions about these issues, yet how can any of this be remotely constructive if the other side has a lack of enthusiasm and interest for those topics in the first place?

And to Bioware? What exactly do you want us to do in these forums? Because all that's left is people repeating the same things from the very beginning, along with people providing positive and negative constructive criticism that really hasn't been addressed in any way yet.

Another common response that I have observed from the Bioware camp is that they view declarations to no longer support their products as "threats."  These are not "threats" but rather understandable reactions... why should these people continue to buy their products if their concerns are being ignored?    Unhappy customers will not continue to purchase products.... that is very understandable. 

Instead, Bioware should be asking themselves what they should be doing to make these people happy again or at least, most of them.  I am here on the off chance that they are doing so.

[78stonewobble]

Indy_S wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

iakus wrote...

If you want to see great examples of constructive criticism on these very forums, look up posts and threads made by Drayfish and 3dandbeyond. Long, thoughtful posts full of passion but not hate

Actually speaking of "hate".

I think the game itself needed more of that.

They did a great job incorporating joy, happyness, love, sadness but in some way they didn't really pull of some antagonists I could really hate (or very very dislike atleast).

Hate was fairly intuitive with Kai Leng but that's probably more because if it wasn't the player fighting him, Shepard is a complete idiot. The end of the Thessia battle was pretty hate-inducing. 'There's only one way this ends' *b****slap*. Knocking out two of the supposedly most competent soldiers in the galaxy with one slap didn't sit well for me.

Hehe... Well that had more to do with circumstances than Kai Leng really inspiring hate.

*ponders on what makes a villain good enough to be hated*

He/She shouldn't end up being silly or cool atleast.

It should have "hurt" the player in some way. So you get personally involved.



The ability to permanently destroy your favorite unique weapon or a skill? 
Hurting someone who mattered to your fav squadmates or li?

Or going to an even darker place.

Some sort of killing / raping thing of your fav squadmate or li?

Dark place indeed.

[liggy002]

JamesFaith wrote...

OP, main problem is, that purpose of constructive critique of finished piece isn't forcing author to change it, but pointing out his mistakes, so he can avoid them in FUTURE work.

So results of your points should be:

1. Better closure in next game.

2. Not completely abandon old theme from previous game.

3. Different access to squadmates.

4. More hub worlds.

These things would be used in next games, if BW want, but they definitely wouldn't make so big changes fans demanding in finished game.

DLC.... they have an opportunity to address many of these complaints in the DLC, yet they have not yet thus far.

[XXIceColdXX]

Grubas wrote...

Dear Stan,
This thread. Does it not disprove your assertion? Your here, talking with us.

Its pretty balanced dont you agree?

Its exactly the same with the threads Sylvf was participating in. People calm down on their own.

Really most of the time its enough that someone comes over and communicates his point of view in a genuine fashion.
It would calm down the majority of the fans. Help people understand. You might disagree, but to be honest do you have a living example, a counterargument to threads like this?

Did a dev come here to talk, and has been nothing but spit upon? Its just a confusing fear, nothing more.

We don't bite.

This.

[78stonewobble]

Oh a side comment regarding bioware:

I don't think they owe us too much. They certainly don't owe me my perfect ending. About what could be owed is a disc that works and a game that runs. Everything else is a bonus.

There's also a big difference between wanting to change and actually being able to change. If there isn't the $$$ behind something it just won't happen. No matter what anyone wants.



It's more interesting or positive to look at this from a perspective of what bioware owes themselves.

If they walk away from a game release and reception with "We allmost had it but I wish we had done xyz differently."

Then they owe it to themselves to, some way, end up with "We NAILED IT!" the next time.



Note: I am being entirely selfish about this though. I like the mass effect series but I want good (or even better) games in the future.

[Seboist]

dorktainian wrote...

Seboist wrote...

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

But so far, the most common complaints are:

2- Lack of Harbringer and collectors.

Yeah, some on here want to make an already pointless middle entry even more pointless by having Collectors in SP.

the middle isn't pointless at all if you actually understand what is going on with cerberus.

It helps with understanding what a constantly retconned mess they are by seeing how they go from a small organization of 150 operatives to a galactic sith empire capable of waging war on multiple fronts that's for sure.

[Indy_S]

DLC works the same way appendices and revised editions work for books. It's just usually more immediate. Asking them to avoid mistakes in the future is more acceptable than demanding them to release a DLC to address them. I thought the EC was unnecessary (not because I disapprove of its content, it is better) but because the story had been told and revising a video game is remarkably impractical. I can respect them for releasing it, for acknowledging some of the fan's complaints with the previous ending. I don't want the industry to become known for repeatedly changing the endings of its stories. However, I still think releasing the DLC liggy and others want remain remarkably impractical.

[katamuro]

 The whole issue is that from the start the devs the publisher and most game journalists callled the people who complained and wanted what they were advertised "an entitled bunch of children" "minority" and other not so flattering words. Yes we did complain, and yes some of us were quite vocal and I was back then on forums. But the first thing we tried was understanding. We called out to them to explain it to us.
We called out for their thoughts and hoped it would make it hurt less. Instead we got told to shut up and obey. We got told to accept it as is.
We were called spoiled and entitled because we wanted an ending that followed the lore and the story of the whole trilogy, we were called stupid for not understanding their "artistic vision". We then bargained for it. We offered them money. We offered them to pay for their work once again. Many of us would have done so. Instead they took 3 months to come up with a slideshow. Sure it was better than the original but it was a sweetened poison to swallow. Still the same inside just now with less problematic to swallow. 

And then some of us raged. Some were serious, others just wanted the whole issue blown out of proportion. And the opposite side decided to equate all of us with those raging individuals. And then it did dawn on us. We were just pointlessly expending our energy on someone who did not want to hear us. For them the issue was done. It was a job and it was finished. they already got their money for it. 
So when they called for "constructive" criticism I wondered if all the ideas, all our attempts to understand were just thrown out because they did not like them.
And yes I will say it, Some of the fan endings were way better job than a bunch of proffesionals that got payed a lot of money to do. 
Look at koobismos comic. THAT is a masterpiece. 1 man with a vision started it out of a joke has done better than a team of proffesional writers. 

Dont you find that illogical, strange even disturbing?

[78stonewobble]

"most game journalists callled the people who complained and wanted what they were advertised "an entitled bunch of children" "minority" and other not so flattering words."

That one irked me when I saw it.

Though obviously it was aimed at people "demanding" stuff it was also very dismissive of what was rather coherent arguments against the quality of the ending.

The journalists didn't necessarily have to agree with the critique or the way it was presented, by some, but that didn't make the critique itself invalid by default.

It's in the past now but I find it ironic that the most neutral (IMHO) review(s) now was made by a dude called angry joe . Don't completely agree with him but he managed to actually make me a bit more positive about it all.

EDIT: That guy is rather lame at times but he did a great imitation of me at the start of his me3 review.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 19 janvier 2013 - 12:55 .

[Outsider edge]

78stonewobble wrote...

"most game journalists callled the people who complained and wanted what they were advertised "an entitled bunch of children" "minority" and other not so flattering words."

That one irked me when I saw it.

Though obviously it was aimed at people "demanding" stuff it was also very dismissive of what was rather coherent arguments against the quality of the ending.

The journalists didn't necessarily have to agree with the critique or the way it was presented, by some, but that didn't make the critique itself invalid by default.

It's in the past now but I find it ironic that the most neutral (IMHO) review(s) now was made by a dude called angry joe . Don't completely agree with him but he managed to actually make me a bit more positive about it all.

EDIT: That guy is rather lame at times but he did a great imitation of me at the start of his me3 review.

Well the strong reaction of the gaming media during the endings bonanza has likely some correlation with the fact they themselves felt threatened by the whole ordeal. Reviewers almost unanimously praised Mass Effect 3 as a perfect ending too the trilogy. Barely anyone pointed towards the game's obvious flaws and especially the controversial ending was completely brushed over by 99% of the reviewers.

Now in a perfect world the job of a game reviewer is too give an impartial judgement of a product so consumers know whether a game is worth the money or not. The fact so many consumers went up in arms against a product they had praised probably felt like an attack on their professional opinion. So they went into the offensive and tried too belittle the complainers as entitled children and not grasping the endings etc. The funny thing is 2012 once again had many occasions were the "professional" game journalists were caught out as not being so impartial too the products they have too judge. From the Eurogamer-Square Enix firing too Doritos-gate (coincidently the latter featuring Geoff Keighley the journalist heavily embedded in the Mass Effect 3 PR blitz with his After Hours app) where the world of impartial game journalists was caught with it's pants down.

If anything in retrospect Mass Effect 3 once again showed that professional game reviewers judgements have too be taken with a spoonfull of salt. The fact 99% of them didn't even mention the endings at all eventhough with abit of early research they could have found out it would be a hot topic proves too me they either never finished the game and only played a bitpart of it. Or....they were an extension of ME3's PR campaign.

It's either one or the other cause even when they would have been fine with the original resolution of the game some comments about the nature of the endings wouldn't have been out of place. Instead 99% of them remained totally silent and i found that too be real suspect.

Modifié par Outsider edge, 19 janvier 2013 - 03:36 .

[78stonewobble]

Outsider edge wrote...
Well the strong reaction of the gaming media during the endings bonanza has likely some correlation with the fact they themselves felt threatened by the whole ordeal. Reviewers almost unanimously praised Mass Effect 3 as a perfect ending too the trilogy. Barely anyone pointed towards the game's obvious flaws and especially the controversial ending was completely brushed over by 99% of the reviewers.

Now in a perfect world the job of a game reviewer is too give an impartial judgement of a product so consumers know whether a game is worth the money or not. The fact so many consumers went up in arms against a product they had praised probably felt like an attack on their professional opinion. So they went into the offensive and tried too belittle the complainers as entitled children and not grasping the endings etc. The funny thing is 2012 once again had many occasions were the "professional" game journalists were caught out as not being so impartial too the products they have too judge. From the Eurogamer-Square Enix firing too Doritos-gate (coincidently the latter featuring Geoff Keighley the journalist heavily embedded in the Mass Effect 3 PR blitz with his After Hours app) where the world of impartial game journalists was caught with it's pants down.

If anything in retrospect Mass Effect 3 once again showed that professional game reviewers judgements have too be taken with a spoonfull of salt. The fact 99% of them didn't even mention the endings at all eventhough with abit of early research they could have found out it would be a hot topic proves too me they either never finished the game and only played a bitpart of it. Or....they were an extension of ME3's PR campaign.

It's either one or the other cause even when they would have been fine with the original resolution of the game some comments about the nature of the endings wouldn't have been out of place. Instead 99% of them remained totally silent and i found that too be real suspect.

Agree on most of it from "with a grain of salt" to "suspect", but that's another debate really.

It just annoyed me and felt rather insulting that "real" debate of the ending got buried under, more or less deserved, fingerpointing at at the absolutely worst of the proponents for calling it a bad ending.

PS: Speaking of the game media. I, personally, didn't mind Jessica Chobot in the game. I had no idea who she was before hand, it didn't feel terribly forced to me and realistically who wouldn't have jumped at a chance to be in scifi?

PPS: Well I wouldn't but thats mostly a question of my social phobia than choice per say.

[Morty Smith]

A "discussion" does involve a second party and all I read on here in that regard are soliloquises.

Modifié par Kroitz, 19 janvier 2013 - 05:09 .

[78stonewobble]

Kroitz wrote...

A "discussion" does involve a second party and all I read on here in that regard are soliloquises.

I wouldn't quite put it that depressingly. If people read some of it, even if they're not replying, it is still an exchange of oppinions. Just one way til a reply is made.

[drayfish]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Really, the arguments here are a no-win situation for BioWare. Based on what I've heard from the BSN in the last year, BioWare has three options:

1. BioWare continued to not say anything. They are accused of avoiding fan interaction, hiding from negativity, and not owning up to their mistakes.

2. BioWare comes in to talk to the fans. BioWare will be shouted down with the same kinds of accusations of incompetence and laziness, vitriol, and a whole lot of venting, none of which is constructive.

3. BioWare merely releases a statement about their goals or to defend the game. They would still be accused of cowardice, of trying to spin their own failure, and hiding from the fans, which they could only fix by doing the second entry in this list.

Regardless, anything said will be scrutinized, quoted, misquoted, and turned into memes just like "awesome button" and "artistic integrity." Because people aren't really looking for a conversation. They are looking for someone to vent their frustrations and disappointments on. They are looking for BioWare to admit their mistakes and acknowledge fans' grief and disappointment. Again, not a constructive dialogue, since no one really cares by the time the next game comes out, anyway.

'It's not us it's you'?

I've seen discussions filled with constructive criticism run for up to eight months, propelled by passionate fans with an abiding love of the series simply struggling to comprehend the muddled implications of the ending, and they have still been wholly ignored by devs.

I presume that there was an understandable blanket suggestion to the development team that no one speak on the forums until the chaos dies down, but I think it's misleading to categorise that as some reflection of a persistent toxic atmosphere solely on the side of the fans that needs to be corrected before discussion can resume.

To me the 'let's all clean up our act' line rings more like a deflection than a justification.

Modifié par drayfish, 19 janvier 2013 - 06:21 .

[Morty Smith]

Ninja Stan wrote...

2. BioWare comes in to talk to the fans. BioWare will be shouted down with the same kinds of accusations of incompetence and laziness, vitriol, and a whole lot of venting, none of which is constructive.

A question Stan.

When exactly was a dialouge or a discussion from Bioware initiated after the release, that would prove this point you raise?

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Kroitz wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

2. BioWare comes in to talk to the fans. BioWare will be shouted down with the same kinds of accusations of incompetence and laziness, vitriol, and a whole lot of venting, none of which is constructive.

A question Stan.

When exactly was a dialouge or a discussion from Bioware initiated after the release, that would prove this point you raise?

It unfortunately happend to Mike Gamble when he was here in April. It happens to David Gaider from time to time as well.

[AresKeith]

A couple pages back I saw a comment about Kai Leng, my feelings towards him in ME3 is that Bioware used the wrong one.

Kai Leng from Deception was terrible, while him in Retribution felt like the real Anti-Shepard. If they used that kind of Kai Leng he would have been a good villain in ME3.

And that old concept art of Kai Leng with a Cerberus Op squad might have worked if fleshed out more.

[dreamgazer]

Kroitz wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

2. BioWare comes in to talk to the fans. BioWare will be shouted down with the same kinds of accusations of incompetence and laziness, vitriol, and a whole lot of venting, none of which is constructive.

A question Stan.

When exactly was a dialouge or a discussion from Bioware initiated after the release, that would prove this point you raise?

Probably when Gamble came to the forum and was met with hyperbole, troll-face memes and the like. 

[Dreamcleaver]

clarkusdarkus wrote...

Most other devs on other major games come out and converse with they're fanbase, ME3 seems to make the devs unsure of they're own product, i mean come on that scripted inhouse interview was a joke, screening questions, vague PR.... I personally think they're embarrased and can't handle such questions and they honestly thought we'd be happy to gobble up day1 dlc, 31 fetch quests, videogame being too videogamey, 1hub, choices not mattering, ending travesty, ending the game with an advertisement for dlc( my personal fave as regards to shock), etc etc...

ME3 to this day is more remembered for its ending than winning GOTY/75 perfect scores.....it's tainted the game, the series, the devs, i wouldn't be surprised if they just want too sweep it under the carpet and move on......

Tbh I still wonder how after the DA2 fiasco, the ME3 fiasco and the SWOTR fiasco Bioware is still standing.

My guess is that the initial sales were good enough (carried by the Bioware glamour) and it will be the next slate of games that will suffer (sceptical playerbase).

[Morty Smith]

J. Reezy wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

2. BioWare comes in to talk to the fans. BioWare will be shouted down with the same kinds of accusations of incompetence and laziness, vitriol, and a whole lot of venting, none of which is constructive.

A question Stan.

When exactly was a dialouge or a discussion from Bioware initiated after the release, that would prove this point you raise?

Probably when Gamble came to the forum and was met with hyperbole, troll-face memes and the like. 

I remember that. Unfortunate as he was really willing to answer questions.

So there actually was one. I guess I have to search for that thread or can someone remember what was stated from the devs?

[ld1449]

Kroitz wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

2. BioWare comes in to talk to the fans. BioWare will be shouted down with the same kinds of accusations of incompetence and laziness, vitriol, and a whole lot of venting, none of which is constructive.

A question Stan.

When exactly was a dialouge or a discussion from Bioware initiated after the release, that would prove this point you raise?

Probably when Gamble came to the forum and was met with hyperbole, troll-face memes and the like. 

I remember that. Unfortunate as he was really willing to answer questions.

So there actually was one. I guess I have to search for that thread or can someone remember what was stated from the devs?

Yeah, right before Pax. You know. When there still wasn't an EC announced and just a week before some guy on Facebook posted that there were no plans to alter the ending. You know? Two weeks after the ending debacle began and emotions were so high strung the fanbase was like a rabid animal out for blood.

I'd say we're still out for blood to a degree, just not rabid.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

ld1449 wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

2. BioWare comes in to talk to the fans. BioWare will be shouted down with the same kinds of accusations of incompetence and laziness, vitriol, and a whole lot of venting, none of which is constructive.

A question Stan.

When exactly was a dialouge or a discussion from Bioware initiated after the release, that would prove this point you raise?

Probably when Gamble came to the forum and was met with hyperbole, troll-face memes and the like. 

I remember that. Unfortunate as he was really willing to answer questions.

So there actually was one. I guess I have to search for that thread or can someone remember what was stated from the devs?

Yeah, right before Pax. You know. When there still wasn't an EC announced and just a week before some guy on Facebook posted that there were no plans to alter the ending. You know? Two weeks after the ending debacle began and emotions were so high strung the fanbase was like a rabid animal out for blood.

I'd say we're still out for blood to a degree, just not rabid.

I'm not. I just want more discussions.

I didn't like DA2, and I think they did a lot of things wrong in that game. But at least they came out and told us the reasoning of their decisions. At least they defended their work. And they still are having discussions with their skeptical fanbase depite the backlash from DA2. I find that respectable.