390 réponses à ce sujet

[katamuro]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

ld1449 wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

J. Reezy wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

Kroitz wrote...

Ninja Stan wrote...

2. BioWare comes in to talk to the fans. BioWare will be shouted down with the same kinds of accusations of incompetence and laziness, vitriol, and a whole lot of venting, none of which is constructive.

A question Stan.

When exactly was a dialouge or a discussion from Bioware initiated after the release, that would prove this point you raise?

Probably when Gamble came to the forum and was met with hyperbole, troll-face memes and the like. 

I remember that. Unfortunate as he was really willing to answer questions.

So there actually was one. I guess I have to search for that thread or can someone remember what was stated from the devs?

Yeah, right before Pax. You know. When there still wasn't an EC announced and just a week before some guy on Facebook posted that there were no plans to alter the ending. You know? Two weeks after the ending debacle began and emotions were so high strung the fanbase was like a rabid animal out for blood.

I'd say we're still out for blood to a degree, just not rabid.

I'm not. I just want more discussions.

I didn't like DA2, and I think they did a lot of things wrong in that game. But at least they came out and told us the reasoning of their decisions. At least they defended their work. And they still are having discussions with their skeptical fanbase depite the backlash from DA2. I find that respectable.

plus DA2 was a second game, so to propel the plot in the direction needed to set up DA3 they kinda needed something like that. ME3 was supposed to be a brilliant "END" to a brilliant trilogy.

[Ninja Stan]

katamuro wrote...

 The whole issue is that from the start the devs the publisher and most game journalists callled the people who complained and wanted what they were advertised "an entitled bunch of children" "minority" and other not so flattering words. Yes we did complain, and yes some of us were quite vocal and I was back then on forums. But the first thing we tried was understanding. We called out to them to explain it to us.

Be mindful of your liberal use of "we." Because before all of the "entitled" labels were thrown about and before it became a gaming news story, "you" (the general "you" being used the same way you used the general "we") were unable to handle the disappointment and frustration "you" felt and started swearing and wailing and gnashing "your" teeth. "You" also started calling for developers to be fired, swearing up a storm, calling BioWare incompetent, lazy and liars, and demanded that BioWare admit their mistakes, apologize, and give "you" the real ending "you" deserve, based on all the time and money "you" spent on BioWare's games and how loyal of a fan "you" are.

With that furor in full swing, common courtesy and kindness, decency and respect, and moderate, civil discourse was difficult to find. And once the entitled whiners were called out for being entitled whiners--who were extremely unreasonable and vocal in their demands and the reasons behind them--all those who felt even a tiny bit marginalized took up the banned to protest at being called "entitled" and/or "whiners." People who were merely complaining, even the vocal ones, weren't the ones being singled out, but by that point it didn't matter. If you're (the global "you" this time) angry, you're going to find things to be angry about. So people did. Whether it was "artistic integrity," "CoD audience," "too stupid to get the endings," "toxic forums," or whatever else, angry fans will be all too eager to assume the worst in order to fuel that anger. Because if you stopped being angry, maybe BioWare would see that as weakness on your part, or they would think they were right all along and feel they wouldn't have to do anything about it.

Does that justification sound familiar?

We called out for their thoughts and hoped it would make it hurt less. Instead we got told to shut up and obey.

I would like to see the quote on that one! Or are you exaggerating?

We got told to accept it as is.

You were told there was not going to be a new ending. That's a way more passive statement.

We were called spoiled and entitled because we wanted an ending that followed the lore and the story of the whole trilogy,

Incorrect, as I explained above. "You" were called spoiled and entitled for demanding BioWare make your game, your way, and lashing out verbally when it didn't happen.

we were called stupid for not understanding their "artistic vision".

Incorrect. "Artistic integrity" was a way for Ray Muzyka to publicly declare his support for his company and the ME3 team during a time when the team may have been demoralized by the furor surrounding the endings and, once again, those people demanding a new and/or better ending be made for the "loyal fans". At no time did Ray use "art," "artistic integrity," or "artistic vision" in a pejorative fashion the way the community uses it now. In fact, he only used one of those three terms.

We then bargained for it. We offered them money. We offered them to pay for their work once again. Many of us would have done so.

Is that how you normally buy games? Is that normally how developers make their design decisions? Are they mercenaries who work for whichever gamer pays them the most? No, they are not, so I'm not sure why you're complaing that your unorthodox method of begging/bargaining didn't work.

Instead they took 3 months to come up with a slideshow. Sure it was better than the original but it was a sweetened poison to swallow. Still the same inside just now with less problematic to swallow. 

BioWare was pretty open about their intentions with the EC.

And then some of us raged. Some were serious, others just wanted the whole issue blown out of proportion. And the opposite side decided to equate all of us with those raging individuals. And then it did dawn on us. We were just pointlessly expending our energy on someone who did not want to hear us. For them the issue was done. It was a job and it was finished. they already got their money for it.
So when they called for "constructive" criticism I wondered if all the ideas, all our attempts to understand were just thrown out because they did not like them.

As has already been mentioned in this thread, "listening" to feedback doesn't require BioWare to respond, the same way you can read my responses without responding. You might agree with them, you might disagree with them, but I won't know until and unless you respond. And nothing about the forum (or me, for that matter) forces you to respond.

[Killdren88]

Yeah the gamble incident before PAX was a doozy. So I guess it was our fault for lack of communication. Instead of question we more wanted Bioware to offer us a sacrifice we can nash our teeth at.

[Ithurael]

Wow,

even though the convo is heated it is at least nice to have a mod talk with us at the very least.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Ithurael wrote...

Wow,

even though the convo is heated it is at least nice to have a mod talk with us at the very least.

This isn't necessarily that heated though. It's not like we're swarming Stan with torches yelling "RAA RAA RAA" yet. And that's a good thing. I personally think this is the kind of topic we all really should be talking about at the moment, and it would suck if it got locked.

[SpamBot2000]

Well, I hope you folks get the nice conversations with the developers that you want. As for me, all I care about is restoring my favorite game to a state in which I can bear to play it. All the pleasant chats in the world would be of no use unless there is a serious change of heart at BioWare. And yeah, I've tried to put my position across in a thoughtful manner in the past. Those posts got ignored, or in several occasions not posted at all, since Ninja Stan locked the thread while I was searching my soul for the right words to convey the message. So I just got tired of even trying.

It's weird, sure, but the way the Mass Effect story ended still... hurts. ME meant a lot to me, and to have my Shepard forced into suicide like that... suicide is kind of a touchy subject for some of us. And it's for such grotesque causes too. I loved these games. Now I can't even touch them. Is some developer really going to come on BSN and explain why it had to be this way?

[Ninja Stan]

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

This isn't necessarily that heated though. It's not like we're swarming Stan with torches yelling "RAA RAA RAA" yet. And that's a good thing. I personally think this is the kind of topic we all really should be talking about at the moment, and it would suck if it got locked.

And that's kinda one reason we're at this point, isn't it? Not enough people are really caring about important conversations being locked, or having their feedback threads and criticism threads and like/dislike threads being locked. I think the community should always be working towards more of these kinds of conversations and to work at keeping them open.

Yeah, some converstions just naturally peter out, but we're seeing community members who just don't care about their thread getting locked, because they don't have anything to lose. If that thread gets locked, they'll just move to a different one. They always want the same thing, after all, and it doesn't matter which thread they post it in. I've posted some version of the same explanation of "artistic integrity" in maybe a dozen threads in the last couple of months. And that's because some folks aren't seeking out the good discussions and contributing to them. Some folks just care about being right, or being mollified.

I've stayed in this discussion partly because I feel I can do some good here. I can start the conversation about working towards a better community, of having more unified overall goals even when everyone has different opinions, and in showing BioWare that the BSN is the place to go if you want to get sophisticated, detailed, honest feedback on BioWare and BioWare games. I can start that conversation, but only you guys (and girls) can continue it beyond this thread and in the community at large.

Heck, we used to have a whole bunch of people who were happy to help keep an eye on things and report trouble to Moderators and encourage others to behave in threads. Those people led by example, and they were so well regarded that some of them became community Moderators and are still with the BioWare online community today.

[Mr.BlazenGlazen]

Ninja Stan wrote...

Mr.BlazenGlazen wrote...

This isn't necessarily that heated though. It's not like we're swarming Stan with torches yelling "RAA RAA RAA" yet. And that's a good thing. I personally think this is the kind of topic we all really should be talking about at the moment, and it would suck if it got locked.

I've stayed in this discussion partly because I feel I can do some good here. I can start the conversation about working towards a better community, of having more unified overall goals even when everyone has different opinions, and in showing BioWare that the BSN is the place to go if you want to get sophisticated, detailed, honest feedback on BioWare and BioWare games. I can start that conversation, but only you guys (and girls) can continue it beyond this thread and in the community at large.

Well you are. And I thank you far that. I just hope that we fans can continue to have discussions like this with people from the team and mods as well. Because if we can't have open dialogue like this, than any type of feedback, suggestions, or complaints on this forum won't really be "constructive" .  Yeah, I understand that bioware moved on from major complaints like the ending, I'm starting to move on somewhat as well. But since they are planning on making more DLC and continuing the franchise, it's really important to know what the most common complaints are so you how to avoid stuff like that in the future. In my OP, I listed some of the most frequent complaints, so therefore I believe it's only logical to take them all into some serious consideration, even if you don't plan on currently doing anything to address them more (like the continued complaints of the ending, for example). 

[Fawx9]

Killdren88 wrote...

Yeah the gamble incident before PAX was a doozy. So I guess it was our fault for lack of communication. Instead of question we more wanted Bioware to offer us a sacrifice we can nash our teeth at.

I wouldn't say that its completly our fault. I mean that was one example of a boiling pioint being reached. However we were able to have multiple conversations with Allen in the past, and while there were idfiots, it didn't seem to bother him. It actually helped the place greatly, in terms of moral.

We also have this thread showing that people can at least interact with a mod without trying to rip their head off.

At this point, if a dev were to come in or even answer a bunch of submitted quiestions that a mod gathers, then I think there's a good chance that we'd actually be able to have a discussion even if a few trolls do show up.


PS: There's a starjar joke in here somewhere with the whole: the community blew up once, so it will always blow up, even though theres evidence that it may not. But I'll leave it at that for now. 

Modifié par Fawx9, 20 janvier 2013 - 12:45 .

[TheRealJayDee]

Ninja Stan wrote...

And that's kinda one reason we're at this point, isn't it? Not enough people are really caring about important conversations being locked, or having their feedback threads and criticism threads and like/dislike threads being locked. I think the community should always be working towards more of these kinds of conversations and to work at keeping them open.

Yeah, some converstions just naturally peter out, but we're seeing community members who just don't care about their thread getting locked, because they don't have anything to lose. If that thread gets locked, they'll just move to a different one. They always want the same thing, after all, and it doesn't matter which thread they post it in. I've posted some version of the same explanation of "artistic integrity" in maybe a dozen threads in the last couple of months. And that's because some folks aren't seeking out the good discussions and contributing to them. Some folks just care about being right, or being mollified.

I've stayed in this discussion partly because I feel I can do some good here. I can start the conversation about working towards a better community, of having more unified overall goals even when everyone has different opinions, and in showing BioWare that the BSN is the place to go if you want to get sophisticated, detailed, honest feedback on BioWare and BioWare games. I can start that conversation, but only you guys (and girls) can continue it beyond this thread and in the community at large.

Heck, we used to have a whole bunch of people who were happy to help keep an eye on things and report trouble to Moderators and encourage others to behave in threads. Those people led by example, and they were so well regarded that some of them became community Moderators and are still with the BioWare online community today.

How are we supposed to keep threads open? I've experienced it more than once that what I'd consider a good thread with an interesting discussion got locked because some people behaved badly (and/or because a mod decided the discussion was over for other reasons). What am I to do about such things? Obviously the mods who closed down such a thread saw what was happpening and decided that locking it down was the best way to handle it. There's little I see we can do about it. Sure, I can tell people to act like the adults they're supposed to be, but what if they don't? The people that'd actually listen to such good advice usually aren't the ones that need it/the ones causing trouble.

So what are we realistically supposed to do against lockdowns resulting from the inevitable appearance of dedicated troublemakers or the behaviour of those who just don't care? Cause this punishes those really interested in constructive dialogue.

[Indy_S]

I imagine keeping them in-line and reporting trouble-makers to the moderators are what he means.

Stan makes a lot of good points for why the devs feel like this forum is not a place for discussion but I believe they should try again - and again, if necessary - to open up a dialogue with their fans. They still value our input, I'm sure of it, but it would be a lot easier to believe if they were actively in the discussions with us.

[Clayless]

As shown, even by you Indy, most people just dismiss what Bioware say as being inadequate or "side-stepping".

If you don't accept the answers, no discussions can take place.

[Indy_S]

Robosexual wrote...

As shown, even by you Indy, most people just dismiss what Bioware say as being inadequate or "side-stepping".

If you don't accept the answers, no discussions can take place.

If the answers have no reflection or critical thought, then yes. I can say they are inadequate. The answers do not create any room for discussion. For instance, this is not an answer that involves a look back and judgment value:

Q: Can you give an answer to why Harbinger never spoke in me3?
A: We know that's what you hoped to see, but sometimes we have other ideas we want to explore

That is not an answer I can accept. You understand why I don't accept it, I suspect, and I understand why you can. Harbinger never spoke because they had something else planned. But there is no discussion to be had about that. 

Two months ago, Jessica Merizan gave an explanation for her comment:

I just want to clarify something and then I'm locking this thread for turning from a healthy discussion into something unproductive. 
When I said "sometimes we have other ideas we want to explore - never get too attached to a plot." via Twitter, I was referring to writers and their "word babies" as they like to call them, many of which get cut or unused. They have to stay relatively objective otherwise they can't explore amazing ideas brought up by people on the team. The writers can't get too attached to anything. That's not to say they don't have emotional connections to their writing and love the things they create - they don't call them "babies" for nothing

Now, totally different - YOU shouldn't listen to anyone who tells you how to play your game. That was never my intention to say anything otherwise. I'm incredibly attached to certain plots/characters/concepts, and I can be because I'm not a writer. And of course I'm sad when plots don't happen the way I thought they would, and that's totally OK for me as a consumer, but ultimately I'm not the writer and I think they oftentimes delight and surprise me in ways I couldn't have imagined.

Sorry it took me so long to clarify this - hadn't seen how prolific this was until now.

It explains her comment regarding 'getting attached to a plot' but still doesn't provide an assessment of the question. There is no reflection. And that's why I find them inadequate.

[ld1449]

Robosexual wrote...

As shown, even by you Indy, most people just dismiss what Bioware say as being inadequate or "side-stepping".

If you don't accept the answers, no discussions can take place.

Just because someone claims "bull****" does not mean a conversation can't take place.

I tell people they're wrong all the time.

I call them out on what I percieve as lies, all the time and they are more than free to argue the point. (And whadayaknow, they do)

I do this because In short, I don't mince words.

I can understand this rubs people the wrong way, especially when they're not lying, but the point of a conversation is an exchange of ideas and statements.

If I or some other fan believes he is being lied to, or that the person is wrong, keeping quiet and not defending/discussing the point is not exactly helpful. Because then there's nothing that points to the contrary of the assumption.

Look at the situation that happened with Hepler on DA2. She got attacked on the internet and her co-worker (don't recall who) came flat out and deffended her.

Were insults exchanged?

Yes.

Was it a fiasco over the internet?

Yes.

Was there critisism and Vitirol sent to both sides of the fence?

Yes.

What happened after that?

The Hepler bashing largely stopped.

Why?

Because They ANSWERED.

Same with the discussions about Anders and all the bull**** that entailed in DA2.

Bioware offered their reasons for XYZ things and even though the argument didn't end, it largely died down since the "speculation" became accademic. We'd gotten their stance/oppinion/justification on the matter.

People can accept answers even if they by and large disagree with them.

To remain silent just "encourages" for the "White Knights" to engage the "Haters" and the arguments Stan wants to cull, so much keep on self perpetuating themselves because **** doesn't get a definitive answer. And even if it does get a definitve answer, its not anything significant or even worthy of being labeled anything but a dismissal like Casey's joke of an inhouse interview with Merizian and Mac.

I could argue with you about ME3's ending till I'm blue in the face and vice versa but it would be little more than arbitrary because I can't see the "official" jstification, the thought process the song and dance that went on behind closed doors that led to what I can definitively say is the most horrid excuse for writing I've experienced in years.

[Reorte]

TheRealJayDee wrote...

How are we supposed to keep threads open? I've experienced it more than once that what I'd consider a good thread with an interesting discussion got locked because some people behaved badly (and/or because a mod decided the discussion was over for other reasons).

More to the point how many threads get locked because they get hijacked by the name-callers on one side or the other (for the sake of argument ignoring a few that should never have been started in the first place)?

[Dunabar]

Reorte wrote...
More to the point how many threads get locked because they get hijacked by the name-callers on one side or the other (for the sake of argument ignoring a few that should never have been started in the first place)?

+1

I can say from experience that sometimes if you give them nothing to argue about they pretty much go away. Just give them no fuel to start fires, no meat to bite into, or anything of the such. Its not always the case, but it does tend to shut them up. The more you ignore haters, screamers, and the likes, the least likely they're to stay around. There is always exceptions to this but they do tend to go away. They go away quicker if people just don't pay any attention to them, but some people are just out looking for a fight, just to fight.

Modifié par Dunabar, 20 janvier 2013 - 03:26 .

[chemiclord]

ZLurps wrote...

I still don't get this. So Hudson or Walters come here and chat with forumers. Then what?

It would be a bloodbath of hatred and venom from masses demanding apologies and reperations for the horrible slap in the face those two gave their honest and trusting and supportive fans; and if those two don't fix it immediately then the expressed hope that both will lose their jobs and be destitute for the rest of their lives.

[Obadiah]

Yeah, to be perfectly honest, why isn't there a stickied FAQ on the ME3 ending in this forum? It generated a fair amount of controversy, and even after the EC, there are still a bunch of lingering lore questions.

It's WAY cheaper than releasing a DLC, and it can be easily modified if some lore aspect turns out to be egregiously inconsistent. You could even stick the full quotes of the constantly misquoted devs in there as a standard response. It's sort of the head-smacking cheapest and simplest approach to answering common lore questions.

A FAQ would go a long way to ending some of the more non-constructive threads when they start, because people would just say, "that's not what happened - just look at the FAQ."

Modifié par Obadiah, 20 janvier 2013 - 03:59 .

[Indy_S]

chemiclord wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

I still don't get this. So Hudson or Walters come here and chat with forumers. Then what?

It would be a bloodbath of hatred and venom from masses demanding apologies and reperations for the horrible slap in the face those two gave their honest and trusting and supportive fans; and if those two don't fix it immediately then the expressed hope that both will lose their jobs and be destitute for the rest of their lives.

I'm hopeful for better but I won't deceive myself by saying it wouldn't happen.

[Grubas]

Mike Gamble incident? Iam sorry but all I can remember is this: at some time during the release of the EC a dev came to this board and stated that: from now on you no longer need Multiplayer to reach the best ending, it was all an incentive to play Multiplayer.

He said this months! after bw officials claiming the opposite, and numerous threads that were pointing this out have been closed!

Conclusion: Either he meant what he said, being genuine implies he wasnt really reading the boards.
Or: He thought that it wasnt a big deal to misslead the fans during a long period start with a pre-release statement until the release of the EC.

This is an example how not to treat the community. Its an Example of disrespect

.

[Clayless]

So it would be a bloodbath of hatred and venom from some, and ignoring of answers that people dislike (and most likely, turning it into memes)?

How is that constructive?

People just try to make themselves look like victims, like they're being abused by the Man, with that mentality this place will never be constructive.

Modifié par Robosexual, 20 janvier 2013 - 04:15 .

[Fawx9]

chemiclord wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

I still don't get this. So Hudson or Walters come here and chat with forumers. Then what?

It would be a bloodbath of hatred and venom from masses demanding apologies and reperations for the horrible slap in the face those two gave their honest and trusting and supportive fans; and if those two don't fix it immediately then the expressed hope that both will lose their jobs and be destitute for the rest of their lives.

It doesn't have to be them wadding in though.

They can start with something simple, like Chris taking questions and then getting back to us with the devs replies.

While it may not be an open conversation like some would hope, it's a starting point, one this place sorely needs.

This community is basically strangling itself to death. Even answers that we don't like at this point would be welcome as it would at least let us see their side of things. Until then we're just going to keep arguing in circles about assumptions on why didn't Harbringer have any lines, or why the rachni seemed to be a meaningless choice, etc.

If they want this community to stay alive then this stagnation is the exact opposite way of doing it.

[Indy_S]

Robosexual wrote...

So it would be a bloodbath of hatred and venom from some, and ignoring of answers that people dislike (and most likely, turning it into memes)?

How is that constructive?

People just try to make themselves look like victims, like they're being abused by the Man, with that mentality this place will never be constructive.

I never spoke of the scale of the bloodbath, I believe it wouldn't be as bad as you think but still not as good as I'd want. As to the 'ignoring of answers', we've been over that. Justifications, reflection, critical thought. That's how you get discussions. That's how it's constructive.

Again, the victim mentality isn't as prevalent as you think, but I am aware that it is more prevalent than I'd want.

[Clayless]

Indy_S wrote...

Robosexual wrote...

So it would be a bloodbath of hatred and venom from some, and ignoring of answers that people dislike (and most likely, turning it into memes)?

How is that constructive?

People just try to make themselves look like victims, like they're being abused by the Man, with that mentality this place will never be constructive.

I never spoke of the scale of the bloodbath, I believe it wouldn't be as bad as you think but still not as good as I'd want. As to the 'ignoring of answers', we've been over that. Justifications, reflection, critical thought. That's how you get discussions. That's how it's constructive.

Again, the victim mentality isn't as prevalent as you think, but I am aware that it is more prevalent than I'd want.

I don't think we'll come to an agreement on how bad or good it will be. Seeing what I did in this past 10 months, and still seeing lies people make up, and worse, believe (that "Epic" thread is still around) means I don't expect any better than the absolute worst.

But, what would happen if you asked a question, got an answer similar to that Harbinger one, and Bioware then moved on to a different question. How would you react?

[XXIceColdXX]

It was nice for Mike Gamble to stop by the BSN, but when he was here, he didnt really address the main concerns we all feeling at the time.

I suppose the right time for the devs to comment on the BSN would be when they can finally talk openly. As side stepping the tough questions