217 réponses à ce sujet

[blah64]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 Pro-Synth here.


People are the same as they always were, post-Synthesis.

Impossible. The very definition of synthesis procludes this possibilty. The utter rage I would feel at such a genetic rape of my mind and body is horrifying to contemplate. I would kill the in themost brutal fashion the person(s) who did it too me. And if I did not feel ragepost-synth? Then is just proves that I was not the same person after the change, showing that I "died"and was reflaced with a hybrid fascimile.

The Grey Nayr wrote...


Nobody dies in Synthesis, except Shepard, who is a willing participant.

if you're gonna argue synthesis being forced on people as bad because they're different, you may as well call Wrex the devil for pushing the Krogan to embrace more peaceful ways(Krogan are warriors by nature.)

Plus the entire galaxy gave up their right to choose when they(metaphorically) got on their hands and knees to beg Shepard to save their asses from being killed. They don't care about the means, only the goal: survival.

That's utter rubbish. Wrex was trying to convince the Krogan, and warring with those that decided to fight him. Synthesis removes all choicefromthe ENTIRE universe. Billions upon billions striped of the fundamental right to self-determinate.

And I didn't see the glaxy begging shepard, no more than he begged them to unite. And since when does asking for help automatically strip you of yuour induvidual rights?

Modifié par blah64, 28 janvier 2013 - 05:45 .

[Wayning_Star]

all the 'anti' synthesis posts lends to me jumping into the mean green beam that much sooner..

[WhiteKnyght]

blah64 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 Pro-Synth here.


People are the same as they always were, post-Synthesis.

Impossible. The very definition of synthesis procludes this possibilty. The utter rage I would feel at such a genetic rape of my mind and body is horrifying to contemplate. I would kill the in themost brutal fashion the person(s) who did it too me. And if I did not feel ragepost-synth? Then is just proves that I was not the same person after the change, showing that I "died"and was reflaced with a hybrid fascimile.

Well then it's a good thing that you are never synthesized. You die, everybody else gets to reap the benefits.

Epilogue showed no one complaining. No one.

[Wayning_Star]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

blah64 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 Pro-Synth here.


People are the same as they always were, post-Synthesis.

Impossible. The very definition of synthesis procludes this possibilty. The utter rage I would feel at such a genetic rape of my mind and body is horrifying to contemplate. I would kill the in themost brutal fashion the person(s) who did it too me. And if I did not feel ragepost-synth? Then is just proves that I was not the same person after the change, showing that I "died"and was reflaced with a hybrid fascimile.

Well then it's a good thing that you are never synthesized. You die, everybody else gets to reap the benefits.

Epilogue showed no one complaining. No one.

naturalists wants the MEU deep space stuff, but don't really understand that the piper is waiting just around the bend.

The only way out of it is to leave the MEU, completely. The Leviathan would have it another way,as thralldom has its perks..apparently.

[blah64]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

blah64 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 Pro-Synth here.


People are the same as they always were, post-Synthesis.

Impossible. The very definition of synthesis procludes this possibilty. The utter rage I would feel at such a genetic rape of my mind and body is horrifying to contemplate. I would kill the in themost brutal fashion the person(s) who did it too me. And if I did not feel ragepost-synth? Then is just proves that I was not the same person after the change, showing that I "died"and was reflaced with a hybrid fascimile.

Well then it's a good thing that you are never synthesized. You die, everybody else gets to reap the benefits.

Epilogue showed no one complaining. No one.

Let's ignore the fact that no one complained about the complete destruction of all AIs in destroy, or no one showed any doubts in control that Reapers were all nice and friendly after the genocide of billions. I think it's safe to assume that the EC and eilouge sugar coated galactic opinion polls.

That said, if not a single induvidual complained, when dozens right here are, and people like Javik and Ashley exist in-universe, that perhaps synthesis is more nefarious than it sounds?

[Wayning_Star]

blah64 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

blah64 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 Pro-Synth here.


People are the same as they always were, post-Synthesis.

Impossible. The very definition of synthesis procludes this possibilty. The utter rage I would feel at such a genetic rape of my mind and body is horrifying to contemplate. I would kill the in themost brutal fashion the person(s) who did it too me. And if I did not feel ragepost-synth? Then is just proves that I was not the same person after the change, showing that I "died"and was reflaced with a hybrid fascimile.

Well then it's a good thing that you are never synthesized. You die, everybody else gets to reap the benefits.

Epilogue showed no one complaining. No one.

Let's ignore the fact that no one complained about the complete destruction of all AIs in destroy, or no one showed any doubts in control that Reapers were all nice and friendly after the genocide of billions. I think it's safe to assume that the EC and eilouge sugar coated galactic opinion polls.

That said, if not a single induvidual complained, when dozens right here are, and people like Javik and Ashley exist in-universe, that perhaps synthesis is more nefarious than it sounds?

haven't been there, haven't done it...as it were.

Who is actually "in power" in the MEU?

[WhiteKnyght]

blah64 wrote...

That's utter rubbish. Wrex was trying to convince the Krogan, and warring with those that decided to fight him. Synthesis removes all choicefromthe ENTIRE universe. Billions upon billions striped of the fundamental right to self-determinate.

And I didn't see the glaxy begging shepard, no more than he begged them to unite. And since when does asking for help automatically strip you of yuour induvidual rights?

No it's not. Listen to Wrex in ME2. A lot of Krogan want him dead for his reforms, but he's got everything set up to where anybody who crosses him endangers their species as a whole(fertile females are in danger when he is) so they're pretty much blackmailed into cooperation.

Gatatog Uvenk: You have abandoned many traditions to get your way. *whines*

Wrex: *headbutts* I'll drag your clan to glory whether it likes it or not.

And Eve and the other females pretty much are gonna blackmail the males into doing things their way also, by refusing to breed for them once the genophage is cured.

Where do the Krogan, besides Wrex and Eve, have any choice in the matter?

Also the notion that synthesis takes away the ability to choose is complete garbage. Everybody lives the same way they do in Control and Destroy, except there are better variants(fully rebuilt Tuchanka, Quarians and Geth sharing Rannoch) which is infallible proof that they still can make their own choices.

Lastly, if you don't want synthesis, nothing in the entire world is forcing [i]you[./i] to jump into the laser. By all means, grab the electrodes or shoot the pipe.

[Cobalt2113]

Lol, this is funny thread.

"Synthesis is the most horrible thing ever. Even though I don't understand how it works because it's never really explained."

[blah64]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

blah64 wrote...

That's utter rubbish. Wrex was trying to convince the Krogan, and warring with those that decided to fight him. Synthesis removes all choicefromthe ENTIRE universe. Billions upon billions striped of the fundamental right to self-determinate.

And I didn't see the glaxy begging shepard, no more than he begged them to unite. And since when does asking for help automatically strip you of yuour induvidual rights?

No it's not. Listen to Wrex in ME2. A lot of Krogan want him dead for his reforms, but he's got everything set up to where anybody who crosses him endangers their species as a whole(fertile females are in danger when he is) so they're pretty much blackmailed into cooperation.

Gatatog Uvenk: You have abandoned many traditions to get your way. *whines*

Wrex: *headbutts* I'll drag your clan to glory whether it likes it or not.

And Eve and the other females pretty much are gonna blackmail the males into doing things their way also, by refusing to breed for them once the genophage is cured.

Where do the Krogan, besides Wrex and Eve, have any choice in the matter?

Also the notion that synthesis takes away the ability to choose is complete garbage. Everybody lives the same way they do in Control and Destroy, except there are better variants(fully rebuilt Tuchanka, Quarians and Geth sharing Rannoch) which is infallible proof that they still can make their own choices.

Lastly, if you don't want synthesis, nothing in the entire world is forcing [i]you[./i] to jump into the laser. By all means, grab the electrodes or shoot the pipe.

The thread is about the morality of synthesis; I personally chose destroy. Wrex had power over them, but he could not stop the other clans from choosing their actions, whether it be fight him, support him, leave the planet and become mercenaries and ignoring the whole politcal system of Tuchanka. Synthesis does not allow for this. Every single entity in the entire galaxy is instantly spliced with foreign componants and DNA. Genetic, technological, and biological rape. No choice, no free will.

I wasn't saying that it wook away free will, I was refuting your assumption that everyone was okay with Shepard's descion by citing characters like Ashley and Javik whom we know would be dead set against such changes.

[WhiteKnyght]

blah64 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

blah64 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 Pro-Synth here.


People are the same as they always were, post-Synthesis.

Impossible. The very definition of synthesis procludes this possibilty. The utter rage I would feel at such a genetic rape of my mind and body is horrifying to contemplate. I would kill the in themost brutal fashion the person(s) who did it too me. And if I did not feel ragepost-synth? Then is just proves that I was not the same person after the change, showing that I "died"and was reflaced with a hybrid fascimile.

Well then it's a good thing that you are never synthesized. You die, everybody else gets to reap the benefits.

Epilogue showed no one complaining. No one.

Let's ignore the fact that no one complained about the complete destruction of all AIs in destroy, or no one showed any doubts in control that Reapers were all nice and friendly after the genocide of billions. I think it's safe to assume that the EC and eilouge sugar coated galactic opinion polls.

That said, if not a single induvidual complained, when dozens right here are, and people like Javik and Ashley exist in-universe, that perhaps synthesis is more nefarious than it sounds?

1. Accusing the writers of lying in their own narrative is laughable. That's like saying that Harry didn't really Kill Voldemort at the end of Deathly Hallows and Rowling was just screwing with us. A writer's word is law in their IP.

2. Nobody complained in destroy because, hello, synthetics can be rebuilt. As Starboy so eloquently puts it "soon, your children will create synthetics, and then the chaos will come back.

3. Everybody trusted the Crucible to work. Step 1) Shepard activates the Crucible, Step 2) The Reapers are suddenly placid after being hit by it. Step 3) Shepard makes them start rebuilding crap instead of destroying crap. That's pretty obvious.

4. Disgruntled and overly self-entitled nitwits who call themselves fans complaining and whining like rotten little babies doesn't reflect how people behave in the game. Except maybe a few idiots on the extranet(Or maybe Conrad Verner,) which they can now access with their minds and have no data limits or time lags.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Eryri wrote...

"Synthedi" is a far more emotional creature, who likes snuggling with Joker, and despite having no tear ducts is able to cry at funerals. She is not the same person. She has been rewritten.

I've changed a lot in the past few years. I'm not the same person I was when i was in my teens. Have I been rewritten too? Damn synthesis..

[d4eaming]

Can you make your point without being obnoxiously inflamatory? JFC I hate when people pull that stupid ****e "you're a spoiled baby" because they disagree with your stance. No one is "whining."

It is unimaginably ridiculous to think that the hundred+ billion people in the entire galaxy are happy happy joy joy over having their DNA forcibly rewritten. And if truly "no one" is upset about it, that shows even further issue with synthesis and how it reworks how people feel (you are implanting "understanding" and "cooperation" into people's brains so they stop fighting). That is gross and unethical.

Edit: unless you are the type of person who assumes everyone is lahdidah ok with whatever just because you personally do not witness people who are not happy with whatever. I have met plenty of people like that and they are dense and oblivious to anything outside their personal sphere of understanding.

Modifié par d4eaming, 28 janvier 2013 - 06:11 .

[DirtyPhoenix]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

blah64 wrote...

That's utter rubbish. Wrex was trying to convince the Krogan, and warring with those that decided to fight him. Synthesis removes all choicefromthe ENTIRE universe. Billions upon billions striped of the fundamental right to self-determinate.

And I didn't see the glaxy begging shepard, no more than he begged them to unite. And since when does asking for help automatically strip you of yuour induvidual rights?

No it's not. Listen to Wrex in ME2. A lot of Krogan want him dead for his reforms, but he's got everything set up to where anybody who crosses him endangers their species as a whole(fertile females are in danger when he is) so they're pretty much blackmailed into cooperation.

Gatatog Uvenk: You have abandoned many traditions to get your way. *whines*

Wrex: *headbutts* I'll drag your clan to glory whether it likes it or not.

And Eve and the other females pretty much are gonna blackmail the males into doing things their way also, by refusing to breed for them once the genophage is cured.

Where do the Krogan, besides Wrex and Eve, have any choice in the matter?

Also the notion that synthesis takes away the ability to choose is complete garbage. Everybody lives the same way they do in Control and Destroy, except there are better variants(fully rebuilt Tuchanka, Quarians and Geth sharing Rannoch) which is infallible proof that they still can make their own choices.

Lastly, if you don't want synthesis, nothing in the entire world is forcing [i]you[./i] to jump into the laser. By all means, grab the electrodes or shoot the pipe.

Lol.. "I'm going to drag your clan to glory whether you like it or not.." I don't see any begging here. Obvious grasping at straws is obvious.

[WhiteKnyght]

blah64 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

blah64 wrote...

That's utter rubbish. Wrex was trying to convince the Krogan, and warring with those that decided to fight him. Synthesis removes all choicefromthe ENTIRE universe. Billions upon billions striped of the fundamental right to self-determinate.

And I didn't see the glaxy begging shepard, no more than he begged them to unite. And since when does asking for help automatically strip you of yuour induvidual rights?

No it's not. Listen to Wrex in ME2. A lot of Krogan want him dead for his reforms, but he's got everything set up to where anybody who crosses him endangers their species as a whole(fertile females are in danger when he is) so they're pretty much blackmailed into cooperation.

Gatatog Uvenk: You have abandoned many traditions to get your way. *whines*

Wrex: *headbutts* I'll drag your clan to glory whether it likes it or not.

And Eve and the other females pretty much are gonna blackmail the males into doing things their way also, by refusing to breed for them once the genophage is cured.

Where do the Krogan, besides Wrex and Eve, have any choice in the matter?

Also the notion that synthesis takes away the ability to choose is complete garbage. Everybody lives the same way they do in Control and Destroy, except there are better variants(fully rebuilt Tuchanka, Quarians and Geth sharing Rannoch) which is infallible proof that they still can make their own choices.

Lastly, if you don't want synthesis, nothing in the entire world is forcing [i]you[./i] to jump into the laser. By all means, grab the electrodes or shoot the pipe.

The thread is about the morality of synthesis; I personally chose destroy. Wrex had power over them, but he could not stop the other clans from choosing their actions, whether it be fight him, support him, leave the planet and become mercenaries and ignoring the whole politcal system of Tuchanka. Synthesis does not allow for this. Every single entity in the entire galaxy is instantly spliced with foreign componants and DNA. Genetic, technological, and biological rape. No choice, no free will.

I wasn't saying that it wook away free will, I was refuting your assumption that everyone was okay with Shepard's descion by citing characters like Ashley and Javik whom we know would be dead set against such changes.

Ashley was a soldier, all soldiers in the Alliance are required to undergo gene therapy to increase their capability. They don't give them a choice on that, if you wanna be a soldier, you gotta live with it.  If you're arguing her religious beliefs, she wouldn't be in the Alliance if that was a problem because the gene therapies would be meddling with nature, which religion is generally against.

As for Javik, he comes from a race of people who, like the Romans, subjugated countless peoples, destroyed their cultures, forced their own on them, and made them slaves against their will. And Javik agreed with it all.

And using the fact that they're both bigots towards synthetics is a shallow argument. Saying "they would hate it because they're racist" is an argument nobody with a half a brain cell would go for. This day in age, protecting racist sentiments is something people are trying to stop

Also using the word rape in this instance is an insult to real victims. Rape is a painful traumatic experience which leaves lasting psychological and physical scars. Synthesis happens in an instant and doesn't hurt anyone in any way. A booster shot on a crying child is more traumatic. Unless you've actually been raped, most would tell you to shut your mouth and not use the word.(just like when Ashley told Saracino to shut his mouth for using Shanxi as an excuse when he was never there.)

[blah64]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

blah64 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

blah64 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 Pro-Synth here.


People are the same as they always were, post-Synthesis.

Impossible. The very definition of synthesis procludes this possibilty. The utter rage I would feel at such a genetic rape of my mind and body is horrifying to contemplate. I would kill the in themost brutal fashion the person(s) who did it too me. And if I did not feel ragepost-synth? Then is just proves that I was not the same person after the change, showing that I "died"and was reflaced with a hybrid fascimile.

Well then it's a good thing that you are never synthesized. You die, everybody else gets to reap the benefits.

Epilogue showed no one complaining. No one.

Let's ignore the fact that no one complained about the complete destruction of all AIs in destroy, or no one showed any doubts in control that Reapers were all nice and friendly after the genocide of billions. I think it's safe to assume that the EC and eilouge sugar coated galactic opinion polls.

That said, if not a single induvidual complained, when dozens right here are, and people like Javik and Ashley exist in-universe, that perhaps synthesis is more nefarious than it sounds?

1. Accusing the writers of lying in their own narrative is laughable. That's like saying that Harry didn't really Kill Voldemort at the end of Deathly Hallows and Rowling was just screwing with us. A writer's word is law in their IP.

2. Nobody complained in destroy because, hello, synthetics can be rebuilt. As Starboy so eloquently puts it "soon, your children will create synthetics, and then the chaos will come back.

3. Everybody trusted the Crucible to work. Step 1) Shepard activates the Crucible, Step 2) The Reapers are suddenly placid after being hit by it. Step 3) Shepard makes them start rebuilding crap instead of destroying crap. That's pretty obvious.

4. Disgruntled and overly self-entitled nitwits who call themselves fans complaining and whining like rotten little babies doesn't reflect how people behave in the game. Except maybe a few idiots on the extranet(Or maybe Conrad Verner,) which they can now access with their minds and have no data limits or time lags.

1.) I didn't accuse them of lying in their own narravtive. I was simply remidning you that not everything is explicit nor fully explained. Takign something as complicated as synthesis at face value is impossible and nieve.

2.) There were many who considered synthetics to be fully developed creations who possed life in every sense of the word. Joker came to care for EDI. I doubt he would be happy with her death. Tali came to feel (in certain playthroughs) that the Geth has souls. Would she reverse that and ignore their complete genocide?

3.) Overly simplified considered how much deatha nd destruction that the reapers leavied as well as the fact that anyone who was not indoctrinated was aware of indoctrination and that Reapers on most world where they had harvesting operations on, were seemingly working with the populace, promising peace, etc. Simply put, the Reapers were ruthless, tricky, and patient. Everyone fighting them knew that. So suddenly because the Reapers built citadel shoots out a blue beam everyone decides to trust the Reapers? Come on.

4.) Not even really sure how to adress this one. We're talking about the ethics. I don't think that makes us "Disgruntled and overly self-entitled nitwits". And once again you are over simplifyng the issues. Sure wifi in your head and porn streamed directly into your mind sounds all well and good, if you CHOSE it. That is the key issue here. Not whether synthesis was an impericle improvment, but whether it was right to FORCE it on people.

[His Name was HYR!!]

blah64 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 Pro-Synth here.


People are the same as they always were, post-Synthesis.

Impossible. The very definition of synthesis procludes this possibilty. The utter rage I would feel at such a genetic rape of my mind and body is horrifying to contemplate. I would kill the in themost brutal fashion the person(s) who did it too me. And if I did not feel ragepost-synth? Then is just proves that I was not the same person after the change, showing that I "died"and was reflaced with a hybrid fascimile.

EC focused on the positives of all endings, not the negative.

They downplayed the geth and EDI's deaths in Destroy.

FWIW, there's a Control and Synthesis-only slide of Jacob and Brynn consoling a sad female human. Not in Destroy.

[blah64]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

blah64 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

blah64 wrote...

That's utter rubbish. Wrex was trying to convince the Krogan, and warring with those that decided to fight him. Synthesis removes all choicefromthe ENTIRE universe. Billions upon billions striped of the fundamental right to self-determinate.

And I didn't see the glaxy begging shepard, no more than he begged them to unite. And since when does asking for help automatically strip you of yuour induvidual rights?

No it's not. Listen to Wrex in ME2. A lot of Krogan want him dead for his reforms, but he's got everything set up to where anybody who crosses him endangers their species as a whole(fertile females are in danger when he is) so they're pretty much blackmailed into cooperation.

Gatatog Uvenk: You have abandoned many traditions to get your way. *whines*

Wrex: *headbutts* I'll drag your clan to glory whether it likes it or not.

And Eve and the other females pretty much are gonna blackmail the males into doing things their way also, by refusing to breed for them once the genophage is cured.

Where do the Krogan, besides Wrex and Eve, have any choice in the matter?

Also the notion that synthesis takes away the ability to choose is complete garbage. Everybody lives the same way they do in Control and Destroy, except there are better variants(fully rebuilt Tuchanka, Quarians and Geth sharing Rannoch) which is infallible proof that they still can make their own choices.

Lastly, if you don't want synthesis, nothing in the entire world is forcing [i]you[./i] to jump into the laser. By all means, grab the electrodes or shoot the pipe.

The thread is about the morality of synthesis; I personally chose destroy. Wrex had power over them, but he could not stop the other clans from choosing their actions, whether it be fight him, support him, leave the planet and become mercenaries and ignoring the whole politcal system of Tuchanka. Synthesis does not allow for this. Every single entity in the entire galaxy is instantly spliced with foreign componants and DNA. Genetic, technological, and biological rape. No choice, no free will.

I wasn't saying that it wook away free will, I was refuting your assumption that everyone was okay with Shepard's descion by citing characters like Ashley and Javik whom we know would be dead set against such changes.

Ashley was a soldier, all soldiers in the Alliance are required to undergo gene therapy to increase their capability. They don't give them a choice on that, if you wanna be a soldier, you gotta live with it.  If you're arguing her religious beliefs, she wouldn't be in the Alliance if that was a problem because the gene therapies would be meddling with nature, which religion is generally against.

As for Javik, he comes from a race of people who, like the Romans, subjugated countless peoples, destroyed their cultures, forced their own on them, and made them slaves against their will. And Javik agreed with it all.

And using the fact that they're both bigots towards synthetics is a shallow argument. Saying "they would hate it because they're racist" is an argument nobody with a half a brain cell would go for. This day in age, protecting racist sentiments is something people are trying to stop

Also using the word rape in this instance is an insult to real victims. Rape is a painful traumatic experience which leaves lasting psychological and physical scars. Synthesis happens in an instant and doesn't hurt anyone in any way. A booster shot on a crying child is more traumatic. Unless you've actually been raped, most would tell you to shut your mouth and not use the word.(just like when Ashley told Saracino to shut his mouth for using Shanxi as an excuse when he was never there.)

1.) Yes, she CHOSE to be a soldier. And CHOSE to accept the upgrades. Period.

2.) It's irrelavant to my point why they believed what they believed, but merely that they did. If after synthesis they did not object, than they were fundamentally changed by synthesis adding another immoral wrinkle to the whole thing. If they did object, as I believe they would have, then support of synthesis was not universal as you stated.

3.) Rape is at it's most basic and overpowering invasion of a person, leaving them helpless and violated by another. I see no better comparision for synthesis that this. Rape perfectly defines what it is. And your statement that it leave no harm and hurts in no way are purely subjective to yourself, a belief that you are not entitled to make on behalf of another sentient and thinking induvidual.

[Wayning_Star]

the unfortunate truth of the matters is that Shep doesn't force anything on the MEU, the MEU forces it on it's self. Through nature, or with the natural order of evolution. Create synthetic life, you have to accept synthetic life as you're own, or you don't accept synthetic life.

That's the trap set in the MEU..all brought to you by nature and evolution...of the Leviathan.

They're organic by the way and apex in the MEU. AND, they'll be apex unless you figure out a way to equalize the pressures of evolution, change space and time, synthesis the MEU. You are either with them, or against them.. as their absolute thinking dictates, and/or dictated, with the onset of the intelligence. Their tool and Sheps tool.

What you gonna do Daddy?

[WhiteKnyght]

blah64 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

blah64 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

blah64 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

 Pro-Synth here.


People are the same as they always were, post-Synthesis.

Impossible. The very definition of synthesis procludes this possibilty. The utter rage I would feel at such a genetic rape of my mind and body is horrifying to contemplate. I would kill the in themost brutal fashion the person(s) who did it too me. And if I did not feel ragepost-synth? Then is just proves that I was not the same person after the change, showing that I "died"and was reflaced with a hybrid fascimile.

Well then it's a good thing that you are never synthesized. You die, everybody else gets to reap the benefits.

Epilogue showed no one complaining. No one.

Let's ignore the fact that no one complained about the complete destruction of all AIs in destroy, or no one showed any doubts in control that Reapers were all nice and friendly after the genocide of billions. I think it's safe to assume that the EC and eilouge sugar coated galactic opinion polls.

That said, if not a single induvidual complained, when dozens right here are, and people like Javik and Ashley exist in-universe, that perhaps synthesis is more nefarious than it sounds?

1. Accusing the writers of lying in their own narrative is laughable. That's like saying that Harry didn't really Kill Voldemort at the end of Deathly Hallows and Rowling was just screwing with us. A writer's word is law in their IP.

2. Nobody complained in destroy because, hello, synthetics can be rebuilt. As Starboy so eloquently puts it "soon, your children will create synthetics, and then the chaos will come back.

3. Everybody trusted the Crucible to work. Step 1) Shepard activates the Crucible, Step 2) The Reapers are suddenly placid after being hit by it. Step 3) Shepard makes them start rebuilding crap instead of destroying crap. That's pretty obvious.

4. Disgruntled and overly self-entitled nitwits who call themselves fans complaining and whining like rotten little babies doesn't reflect how people behave in the game. Except maybe a few idiots on the extranet(Or maybe Conrad Verner,) which they can now access with their minds and have no data limits or time lags.

1.) I didn't accuse them of lying in their own narravtive. I was simply remidning you that not everything is explicit nor fully explained. Takign something as complicated as synthesis at face value is impossible and nieve.

2.) There were many who considered synthetics to be fully developed creations who possed life in every sense of the word. Joker came to care for EDI. I doubt he would be happy with her death. Tali came to feel (in certain playthroughs) that the Geth has souls. Would she reverse that and ignore their complete genocide?

3.) Overly simplified considered how much deatha nd destruction that the reapers leavied as well as the fact that anyone who was not indoctrinated was aware of indoctrination and that Reapers on most world where they had harvesting operations on, were seemingly working with the populace, promising peace, etc. Simply put, the Reapers were ruthless, tricky, and patient. Everyone fighting them knew that. So suddenly because the Reapers built citadel shoots out a blue beam everyone decides to trust the Reapers? Come on.

4.) Not even really sure how to adress this one. We're talking about the ethics. I don't think that makes us "Disgruntled and overly self-entitled nitwits". And once again you are over simplifyng the issues. Sure wifi in your head and porn streamed directly into your mind sounds all well and good, if you CHOSE it. That is the key issue here. Not whether synthesis was an impericle improvment, but whether it was right to FORCE it on people.

1. So because the writers didn't explain enough, you're going to headcanon it into something disgusting?  HA

2. Shepard: If this were an organic race, it might be an ethical problem. Geth aren't like organic life, don't apply our morality to them. Legion[/i]: That is logical. [b]Tali[/i]: You agree with that? [b]Legion: No two species are identical. All must be judged on their own merits. Treating every species like one's own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism.
     Legion even agrees that you can't apply organic standards of life and living to them. The merit of a machine is that it can be fixed when it breaks down. Arguing that they aren't the same anymore is the fault of the organic.

3. Over-simplification is allowable. The Reapers were on the verge of winning, if they'd kept pushing a couple minutes longer, the Crucible would be destroyed and the collective military force of the galaxy obliterated.  How would suddenly abandoning their victory to pull a pointless deception help to advance their goals? Common sense: it doesn't. It's literally going in reverse.

4. Can't stop progress. Plenty of people hate moving forward and embracing new methods and things, but they can only hold on so long before society in general forces them to accept.  Synthesis is giving everyone the most advanced technology in history at no cost. They're providing a service and anyone who doesn't like the changes doesn't have to use the abilities they now have. The only aesthetic downside is the green overlay, which they'll find a way to conceal like they do every other skin flaw.

[Wayning_Star]

actually, the synthesis would most likely go unnoticed, as the very lowest level of programming is on the molecular level. Even plants are effected. The ultimate long shot to over come our need to dominate nature. So being part synthetic would be second nature, no matter how unnatural it seems to be, didn't stop the levi from divining the intelligence to overcome nature/chaos. Why would human Shep be any different, in that regard, than organic Leviathan who competes?

Synthesis is what we might call the 'ultimate resource'. (or a best mouse trap?)

[WhiteKnyght]

blah64 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

blah64 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

blah64 wrote...

That's utter rubbish. Wrex was trying to convince the Krogan, and warring with those that decided to fight him. Synthesis removes all choicefromthe ENTIRE universe. Billions upon billions striped of the fundamental right to self-determinate.

And I didn't see the glaxy begging shepard, no more than he begged them to unite. And since when does asking for help automatically strip you of yuour induvidual rights?

No it's not. Listen to Wrex in ME2. A lot of Krogan want him dead for his reforms, but he's got everything set up to where anybody who crosses him endangers their species as a whole(fertile females are in danger when he is) so they're pretty much blackmailed into cooperation.

Gatatog Uvenk: You have abandoned many traditions to get your way. *whines*

Wrex: *headbutts* I'll drag your clan to glory whether it likes it or not.

And Eve and the other females pretty much are gonna blackmail the males into doing things their way also, by refusing to breed for them once the genophage is cured.

Where do the Krogan, besides Wrex and Eve, have any choice in the matter?

Also the notion that synthesis takes away the ability to choose is complete garbage. Everybody lives the same way they do in Control and Destroy, except there are better variants(fully rebuilt Tuchanka, Quarians and Geth sharing Rannoch) which is infallible proof that they still can make their own choices.

Lastly, if you don't want synthesis, nothing in the entire world is forcing [i]you[./i] to jump into the laser. By all means, grab the electrodes or shoot the pipe.

The thread is about the morality of synthesis; I personally chose destroy. Wrex had power over them, but he could not stop the other clans from choosing their actions, whether it be fight him, support him, leave the planet and become mercenaries and ignoring the whole politcal system of Tuchanka. Synthesis does not allow for this. Every single entity in the entire galaxy is instantly spliced with foreign componants and DNA. Genetic, technological, and biological rape. No choice, no free will.

I wasn't saying that it wook away free will, I was refuting your assumption that everyone was okay with Shepard's descion by citing characters like Ashley and Javik whom we know would be dead set against such changes.

Ashley was a soldier, all soldiers in the Alliance are required to undergo gene therapy to increase their capability. They don't give them a choice on that, if you wanna be a soldier, you gotta live with it.  If you're arguing her religious beliefs, she wouldn't be in the Alliance if that was a problem because the gene therapies would be meddling with nature, which religion is generally against.

As for Javik, he comes from a race of people who, like the Romans, subjugated countless peoples, destroyed their cultures, forced their own on them, and made them slaves against their will. And Javik agreed with it all.

And using the fact that they're both bigots towards synthetics is a shallow argument. Saying "they would hate it because they're racist" is an argument nobody with a half a brain cell would go for. This day in age, protecting racist sentiments is something people are trying to stop

Also using the word rape in this instance is an insult to real victims. Rape is a painful traumatic experience which leaves lasting psychological and physical scars. Synthesis happens in an instant and doesn't hurt anyone in any way. A booster shot on a crying child is more traumatic. Unless you've actually been raped, most would tell you to shut your mouth and not use the word.(just like when Ashley told Saracino to shut his mouth for using Shanxi as an excuse when he was never there.)

1.) Yes, she CHOSE to be a soldier. And CHOSE to accept the upgrades. Period.

2.) It's irrelavant to my point why they believed what they believed, but merely that they did. If after synthesis they did not object, than they were fundamentally changed by synthesis adding another immoral wrinkle to the whole thing. If they did object, as I believe they would have, then support of synthesis was not universal as you stated.

3.) Rape is at it's most basic and overpowering invasion of a person, leaving them helpless and violated by another. I see no better comparision for synthesis that this. Rape perfectly defines what it is. And your statement that it leave no harm and hurts in no way are purely subjective to yourself, a belief that you are not entitled to make on behalf of another sentient and thinking induvidual.

1. She chose to be a soldier. No indication about whether or not she wanted the upgrades or simply lives with them out of her believed obligation to absolve her family name.

2. Ending doesn't show them hating Shepard for forcing it on them, for "raping" them with synthesis. They mourn his/her passing like normal. By your logic, they'd be happy he's dead for what he did(Since Ash and Javik are both the kill first type)

3. Now who is over-simplifying? Generalizing the use of the word devalues the people who go through the actual thing. A person who had a split second transformation that made no worse off than they were before it happened is not the same as a person who is assaulted, beaten down into submission, and subjected to painful penetration and potential lasting damage(pregnancy, STDs, internal injuries.) In MEU: Talitha from Mindoir and Jack were victims, the people who underwent synthesis were not.
 
Another example to use would be Shepard himself. Nobody asked him whether or not he wanted to come back from the dead, or if he thought it would be a good decision. But they did it anyway. Rebuilt him head to toe and grafted him with enough synthetics to make him the template for what happens to everyone in the galaxy. But did he feel violated? No. When he talked about it to Miranda, he said "Thank you" and his only qualm was that she wanted to implant him with a control chip that would make him a slave.(even the Catalyst points that out to Shepard as an example)

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 28 janvier 2013 - 06:53 .

[Wayning_Star]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

blah64 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

blah64 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

blah64 wrote...

That's utter rubbish. Wrex was trying to convince the Krogan, and warring with those that decided to fight him. Synthesis removes all choicefromthe ENTIRE universe. Billions upon billions striped of the fundamental right to self-determinate.

And I didn't see the glaxy begging shepard, no more than he begged them to unite. And since when does asking for help automatically strip you of yuour induvidual rights?

No it's not. Listen to Wrex in ME2. A lot of Krogan want him dead for his reforms, but he's got everything set up to where anybody who crosses him endangers their species as a whole(fertile females are in danger when he is) so they're pretty much blackmailed into cooperation.

Gatatog Uvenk: You have abandoned many traditions to get your way. *whines*

Wrex: *headbutts* I'll drag your clan to glory whether it likes it or not.

And Eve and the other females pretty much are gonna blackmail the males into doing things their way also, by refusing to breed for them once the genophage is cured.

Where do the Krogan, besides Wrex and Eve, have any choice in the matter?

Also the notion that synthesis takes away the ability to choose is complete garbage. Everybody lives the same way they do in Control and Destroy, except there are better variants(fully rebuilt Tuchanka, Quarians and Geth sharing Rannoch) which is infallible proof that they still can make their own choices.

Lastly, if you don't want synthesis, nothing in the entire world is forcing [i]you[./i] to jump into the laser. By all means, grab the electrodes or shoot the pipe.

The thread is about the morality of synthesis; I personally chose destroy. Wrex had power over them, but he could not stop the other clans from choosing their actions, whether it be fight him, support him, leave the planet and become mercenaries and ignoring the whole politcal system of Tuchanka. Synthesis does not allow for this. Every single entity in the entire galaxy is instantly spliced with foreign componants and DNA. Genetic, technological, and biological rape. No choice, no free will.

I wasn't saying that it wook away free will, I was refuting your assumption that everyone was okay with Shepard's descion by citing characters like Ashley and Javik whom we know would be dead set against such changes.

Ashley was a soldier, all soldiers in the Alliance are required to undergo gene therapy to increase their capability. They don't give them a choice on that, if you wanna be a soldier, you gotta live with it.  If you're arguing her religious beliefs, she wouldn't be in the Alliance if that was a problem because the gene therapies would be meddling with nature, which religion is generally against.

As for Javik, he comes from a race of people who, like the Romans, subjugated countless peoples, destroyed their cultures, forced their own on them, and made them slaves against their will. And Javik agreed with it all.

And using the fact that they're both bigots towards synthetics is a shallow argument. Saying "they would hate it because they're racist" is an argument nobody with a half a brain cell would go for. This day in age, protecting racist sentiments is something people are trying to stop

Also using the word rape in this instance is an insult to real victims. Rape is a painful traumatic experience which leaves lasting psychological and physical scars. Synthesis happens in an instant and doesn't hurt anyone in any way. A booster shot on a crying child is more traumatic. Unless you've actually been raped, most would tell you to shut your mouth and not use the word.(just like when Ashley told Saracino to shut his mouth for using Shanxi as an excuse when he was never there.)

1.) Yes, she CHOSE to be a soldier. And CHOSE to accept the upgrades. Period.

2.) It's irrelavant to my point why they believed what they believed, but merely that they did. If after synthesis they did not object, than they were fundamentally changed by synthesis adding another immoral wrinkle to the whole thing. If they did object, as I believe they would have, then support of synthesis was not universal as you stated.

3.) Rape is at it's most basic and overpowering invasion of a person, leaving them helpless and violated by another. I see no better comparision for synthesis that this. Rape perfectly defines what it is. And your statement that it leave no harm and hurts in no way are purely subjective to yourself, a belief that you are not entitled to make on behalf of another sentient and thinking induvidual.

1. She chose to be a soldier. No indication about whether or not she wanted the upgrades or simply lives with them out of her believed obligation to absolve her family name.

2. Ending doesn't show them hating Shepard for forcing it on them, for "raping" them with synthesis. They mourn his/her passing like normal. By your logic, they'd be happy he's dead for what he did(Since Ash and Javik are both the kill first type)

3. Now who is over-simplifying? Generalizing the use of the word devalues the people who go through the actual thing. A person who had a split second transformation that made no worse off than they were before it happened is not the same as a person who is assaulted, beaten down into submission, and subjected to painful penetration and potential lasting damage(pregnancy, STDs, internal injuries.) In MEU: Talitha from Mindoir and Jack were victims, the people who underwent synthesis were not.
 
Another example to use would be Shepard himself. Nobody asked him whether or not he wanted to come back from the dead, or if he thought it would be a good decision. But they did it anyway. Rebuilt him head to toe and grafted him with enough synthetics to make him the template for what happens to everyone in the galaxy. But did he feel violated? No. When he talked about it to Miranda, he said "Thank you" and his only qualm was that she wanted to implant him with a control chip that would make him a slave.(even the Catalyst points that out to Shepard as an example)

There is no moral high ground to it, only taken as refuge from the reality of it. Folks just don't like ultimatum, unless they are ones giving them..understanding notwithstanding.

Arguement goes unnoticed with moral high ground, too far up the ethics ladder to reach.. safe and sound,etc.

[d4eaming]

Simply because the ending slides don't show people upset with the outcome does not mean that EVERYONE is ok with it. It is a basic assumption to say that no one minds being genetically altered. You are making nothing but an assumption that the 100+ billion people in the entire galaxy is ok with it. That is utterly absurd, and is very blinkered. If everyone is ok with it, then it is very likely that the genetic tinkering also changed their brains, altering their emotions on the whole deal. The slides are not going to show every single individual and state their personal feelings on the matter. You are extrapolating from the very few shown to say that it applies to every single person/synthetic in existence. It's like polling ten people and asking if they like popsickles, they say yes, then you decide that means the other 6+ billion people on Earth also like popsicles.

[78stonewobble]

It either "brainwashes" everyone or it doesn't solve anything.

The analogy being that if we had 2 nations fighting over religion. One nation was religion A or B.
We magically brainwash the inhabitants to have no religion.

Or in the me universe everyone to have an inherint respect for all life.



Most people would agree that a certain understanding and respect for others is a good thing.

But are you allowed to enforce this change of thought in others (not just enforce peace by reaper/gunpoint)?

And does this really represent a genuine change in the individual? Ie. I didn't learn anything to change my mind. My mind was just arbitrarily changed into something which might or might not be the right thing.



Hmm on further thought it seems North Korea is doing the right thing after all. They're probably as happy as they can be.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 28 janvier 2013 - 08:21 .

[Nimrodell]

d4eaming wrote...

Simply because the ending slides don't show people upset with the outcome does not mean that EVERYONE is ok with it. It is a basic assumption to say that no one minds being genetically altered. You are making nothing but an assumption that the 100+ billion people in the entire galaxy is ok with it. That is utterly absurd, and is very blinkered. If everyone is ok with it, then it is very likely that the genetic tinkering also changed their brains, altering their emotions on the whole deal. The slides are not going to show every single individual and state their personal feelings on the matter. You are extrapolating from the very few shown to say that it applies to every single person/synthetic in existence. It's like polling ten people and asking if they like popsickles, they say yes, then you decide that means the other 6+ billion people on Earth also like popsicles.

Bolded parts could be said for any of the endings. Each  group on BSN takes that sort of assumption.