217 réponses à ce sujet

[fainmaca]

What personally troubles me about Synthesis (and the ending as a whole, really), is that it doesn't leave any room to view synthetics as a valid form of life. Apparently they are wrong, not belonging in the universe, and therefore must be changed 'for the good of the galaxy'. I strongly believe that EDI was always alive, from the moment she woke up on Luna and began reacting to the world around her in a way she judged to be right and necessary. I also believe that the Geth were a valid form of life from the moment they 'woke up' on Rannoch three centuries previously. To me, they fulfilled all the requirements to be considered sentient Life from that moment. What the endings tell us is that this is wrong. EDi's just a machine. Legion was just a machine, and they cannot be a part of this galaxy unless they are merged with organics and become living beings. Either that, or we must control them to keep their wrongness from destroying the Galaxy, or they must all be destroyed. There is no room in the Galaxy for their diversity.

what makes Synthesis in particular a difficult ending for me is the fact that synthetics aren't the only invalid life form. We are, too. The only way to achieve a perfect Galaxy is to allow the dominion of the hybrids. Both organics and synthetics must be replaced with a fusion of the two.

I don't like being told that I'm wrong for the Galaxy, that I shouldn't exist as I am and that there's no room for my kind in existance.

Modifié par fainmaca, 28 janvier 2013 - 11:44 .

[alienatedflea]

greatcrusader44 wrote...

alienatedflea wrote...

synthesis ending is beautiful...OP, you can't take what EDI says literally. What makes people "alive"? I argue that its not the fact that we live or die but its the emotions that living beings have. Machines dont have emotions. They just have logic. EDI mentions that the line between organic and synthetics are disappearing because we (organics) have the vast logic/knowledge and the process to commute it at unbelievable speeds like synthetics and now Synthetics have emotion and can better bring logic to understand organics. It is those of lesser minds that think Synthesis is an abomination for which I feel bad for.

"Lesser Minds" lol its always funny when someone says that when defending something stupid.

Its only stupid when you do not understand what is going on. 

[Mouton_Alpha]

d4eaming wrote...

Simply because the ending slides don't show people upset with the outcome does not mean that EVERYONE is ok with it.

Any ending could be subverted like that. "Oh, they only think they got blue babies, they are actually indoctrinated/turned into robots/hallucinating/dreaming/deluding themselves/vegetarian."

[Sirsmirkalot]

I personally regard synthesis to be dumb, and I'm being gentle calling it that.

So imagine that you chose synthesis, what would exactly happen? Did you make everyone half organic and half synthetic? How is that even supposed to work? What's the difference between synthetic and organic life in a society as evolved as Mass Effect's apart from semantics? Some synthetic stuff is actually what we'd call organic and other stuff is basically plastic...so did we turn everyone into plastic? I mean, Turians can be considered as different from humans as they are to the Geth. So does that means Synthetic life is life that is constructed and not born? Wait, how the hell would that work? Did we turn everyone into lego's?!

Or what if we put a modem into everyone, so they could communicate to everyone instead? Having the voices of billions of people in your head really sounds a lot of fun. Let's not even start to talk about forcing this upon everyone in the entire galaxy and the fact that this solves absolutely nothing it was intended to do, because pure "organic" life will keep evolving after this "seeding" event.

But I suppose the galaxy was ready for this "enlightenment" this time around, because due to the warnings of uncountable previous cycles, we actually managed to build the cataclyst in time this time!

In short, synthesis is as dumb as it can be and does not resolve anything. You need a lot more duct tape, presumtions and guesswork to even make it work. The other endings put an end to a runaway insane AI and, even though you're still stuck with the reapers in the control ending, at the very least don't embrace the reasoning of an insane, runaway and ballstripping AI.

Modifié par Sirsmirkalot, 28 janvier 2013 - 01:00 .

[Ieldra]

A few significant points:

(1) Synthesis does not take self-determination away. It violates the right to self-determination in one admittedly important decision. Except for the decision to get themselves Synthesized, people can still make decisions "freely" (how free that is is arguable, but I'll go with the assumption).

(2) Synthesis makes physical changes to organics, because the physical nature of synthetics and organics is causing the problem. Mutually exclusive design principles lead to greatly different advancement speeds, which may result in a creeping extinction over time as the conflicts which will inevitably arise (they always do) get resolved in an increasingly one-sided way. Synthesis makes physical changes in order to bring organics up to the synthetics' advancement speed. The understanding of organics (sentience = capacity to feel, detailed explanation in the Synthesis compendium thread) added to synthetics is an additional mitigating factor, and it is justifiable based on Legion not rejecting the rewriting of the geth heretics in ME2.

Hadeedak wrote...
Oh, look! It's another "My assumptions about what X ending meant means it must be morally reprehensible!" thread.

QFT. It's always the same people repeating "Synthesis is evil. Synthesis is evil" like a prayer wheel based on their own preconceptions. It does get tiresome... I have much more sympathy for the viewpoint "Synthesis makes no sense" because that's partially true. It needs heavy interpretation and the clear distinction between elements which are meant literally and which are not, and as for that being "headcanon": Bioware (don't recall who exactly but it was from the ME3 team) said that there are elements in the ending which are not meant to be taken literally.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 28 janvier 2013 - 01:33 .

[Steelcan]

Must not get involved......

[Mouton_Alpha]

War crime? Atrocity? Genetic rape? Seriously?

Then again some people reject inoculations, transplants, transfusions and gene therapy because it violates their immortal spirit or something. Naturalist kneejerk reactions are, as usual, hilarious.

[Ieldra]

fainmaca wrote...
What personally troubles me about Synthesis (and the ending as a whole, really), is that it doesn't leave any room to view synthetics as a valid form of life. Apparently they are wrong, not belonging in the universe, and therefore must be changed 'for the good of the galaxy'. I strongly believe that EDI was always alive, from the moment she woke up on Luna and began reacting to the world around her in a way she judged to be right and necessary. I also believe that the Geth were a valid form of life from the moment they 'woke up' on Rannoch three centuries previously. To me, they fulfilled all the requirements to be considered sentient Life from that moment. What the endings tell us is that this is wrong. EDi's just a machine. Legion was just a machine, and they cannot be a part of this galaxy unless they are merged with organics and become living beings. Either that, or we must control them to keep their wrongness from destroying the Galaxy, or they must all be destroyed. There is no room in the Galaxy for their diversity.

I have trouble with that, thematically, as well. I rationalize it by seeing that the geth want individuality in the Rannoch plot,  and EDI seems to appreciate the added capacity for empathy in Synthesis.

What I dislike are not the moral, but the philosophical implication: valid life has to be more or less like organics. Synthesis doesn't invalidate organic life since post-Synthesis organic life is upgraded but still organic in design (see my Synthesis compendium for definitions) but ME3 as a whole invalidates the gestalt consciousness of the geth as well as any life with no organic-like empathy, the former in the Rannoch plot, the latter in Synthesis.

[Ieldra]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...
War crime? Atrocity? Genetic rape? Seriously?

Then again some people reject inoculations, transplants, transfusions and gene therapy because it violates their immortal spirit or something. Naturalist kneejerk reactions are, as usual, hilarious.

Indeed. While forcing this solution on the galaxy does present a moral problem, even though the outcome is good, I'm convinced the most knee-jerk reactions are rooted in this "sacred nature" theme, the idea that our biochemical nature is somehow sacrosanct. In reality, human biology is a horrible mess, akin to the result of turning a calculator program into an AI by applying a million patches, as a result of evolution can be expected to be. Our physical nature can do with some improvement.

[Helios969]

When it comes to morality there really is no absolute right choice. I choose destroy everytime even though it hurts me to wipe out the Geth and EDI. For me the story was always about destroying the reapers, and from the onset each of knew that would come at a heavy price. And letting them off the hook after slaughtering trillions every 50k years for millions of years just seems unforgiveable. Each time I replay I tell myself I'm gonna pick synthesis just to do a different ending, and yet everytime I get there I simply cannot bring myself to do it...I just find it too intrusive. It's actually pretty fascinating that depite it only being a videogame with no real world consequences I simply can't make that choice. Who am I to make that choice for every living creature in the galaxy? What scares me about synthesis and the some 20% that believe it so wholly is that some of those people will be in government one day and they will have no problem taking away rights and freedoms if they believe their way of thinking is the correct one. Very scary.

[Shaani]

fainmaca wrote...

What personally troubles me about Synthesis (and the ending as a whole, really), is that it doesn't leave any room to view synthetics as a valid form of life. Apparently they are wrong, not belonging in the universe, and therefore must be changed 'for the good of the galaxy'

I agree with this.  Furthermore, I think find it unplesant to think that I'm forcing such a "solution".  Perhaps Synthesis IS the logical next step for both kinds of life . . . but it should be the choice of future generations, not my choice and mine alone.

Indeed, it seems to be the same problem with the solution the Reapers have been practicing.  They're trying to force a top down solution on what is really a problem with human nature.  That never works.  The answer to the synthetic/organic problem is inside every synthetic and organic intelligence, and will have to be discovered by every one of them.  Any other solution will exasperate the problem, especially if you're challenging diversity with forced sameness.

[Helios969]

Shaani wrote...

fainmaca wrote...

What personally troubles me about Synthesis (and the ending as a whole, really), is that it doesn't leave any room to view synthetics as a valid form of life. Apparently they are wrong, not belonging in the universe, and therefore must be changed 'for the good of the galaxy'

I agree with this.  Furthermore, I think find it unplesant to think that I'm forcing such a "solution".  Perhaps Synthesis IS the logical next step for both kinds of life . . . but it should be the choice of future generations, not my choice and mine alone.

Indeed, it seems to be the same problem with the solution the Reapers have been practicing.  They're trying to force a top down solution on what is really a problem with human nature.  That never works.  The answer to the synthetic/organic problem is inside every synthetic and organic intelligence, and will have to be discovered by every one of them.  Any other solution will exasperate the problem, especially if you're challenging diversity with forced sameness.

Very well said.  Humankind has to adapt willingly, and I would imagine that to be true of any sentient race.  If the "created will always rebel against their creators" (not sure that is absolutely true,) then forcing everyone into a connected, collective race is problematic.  I've said this many times before on these forums that I might choose synthesis for myself because I do believe it is the eventual step for humankind, but to arbitrarily force all to conform to that belief would be disasterous.

[Shaani]

Helios969 wrote...

Very well said.  Humankind has to adapt willingly, and I would imagine that to be true of any sentient race.  If the "created will always rebel against their creators" (not sure that is absolutely true,) then forcing everyone into a connected, collective race is problematic.  I've said this many times before on these forums that I might choose synthesis for myself because I do believe it is the eventual step for humankind, but to arbitrarily force all to conform to that belief would be disasterous.

Besides, I just don't see Synthesis working the way it does in the ending.  There is another side to this, and it's not so touchy-feely.

So, every Organic knows what it's like to be Synthetic, and vice versa.  The Reapers, with their newfound humanity, apologize for what they've done and . . . everyone just forgives them?  Just like that?  After a billion years of galacticide, we're just going to be hunky dory with the giant space doom bugs?

Sorry, I don't buy it.

I do not believe in the viability of any long term solution that does not involve the eradication of the Reapers.  I am the biggest most liberal hippie I know, and I preach tolerance to everyone I can . . . and even I can't imagine letting things go that easily. 

It's too late for coexistence.  Every single sapient mind in the galaxy has been exposed to unimaginable agony, horror, terror, loss, or death at the hands of the Reapers.  This is not something that can be forgiven, not by most people.  Nobody would ever feel safe again.  Everyone alive would live with nightmares of the Reapers returning to their old ways and resuming their war.  Even though they probably wouldn't do that, there's nothing to really stop them, is there?  That is what most people will think. 

Society will tear itself apart if it tries to accept the Reapers.  It would be right to do so.  Allowing the Reapers to escape unharmed, and indeed, rewarding them with humanity is a gross unjustice.  Rebuilding a few mass relays does not account for a hundred thousand cycles of galactic extinction.  It does not account for the horrible feeling of vulnerability that everyone, everywhere will feel for as long as the Reapers exist.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Shaani wrote...

I do not believe in the viability of any long term solution that does not involve the eradication of the Reapers.  I am the biggest most liberal hippie I know, and I preach tolerance to everyone I can . . . and even I can't imagine letting things go that easily. 

Those are valid issues with Synthesis. Then again, the theme of spiecies' redemption is strongly present in ME - Rachni, Krogans, Batarians, Geth/Quarians... Reapers are entirely different league, of course, but the parallels remain.

In the world of Synthesis, I could see Reapers withdrawing from the spotlight for a while after rebuilding effort. They could float in remote places dispensing wisdom or whatever to whoever flies by. They don't have to sit over capitals blowing their fog sirens.

Anyway, long term issues and challenges are present in all endings - I like it, actually.

[Shaani]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Those are valid issues with Synthesis. Then again, the theme of spiecies' redemption is strongly present in ME - Rachni, Krogans, Batarians, Geth/Quarians... Reapers are entirely different league, of course, but the parallels remain.

It does fit with the theming, albeit not in a way that makes it seem plausable.  Good catch.

Before anyone brings it up: I'm working on a couple of assumptions here.

1) None of the endings is a "trap".  The Reapers are legitimately redeemed because that's the point of Synthesis.  They don't turn right aorund and start fighting again as soon as the camera is off.

2) Everyone is still themselves.  Whatever differences exist post-Synthesis, it does not take away humanity from humans, or change the vital nature of any of the other species, organic or synthetic.

I think that both of these are sensable no matter what you think of any ending.

With that in mind, asking even a post-Synthesis utopian society to accept the Reapers in light of their past actions is asking quite a lot more than is reasonable.  The Reapers have commited galacticide at least 100,000 times (one cycle every 50,000 years for at least 1 billion years) in the past based on what might well have been a math error that made them think just teaching people was not an option.  Having them around, even in exile, is never going to make anyone happy or comfortable, no matter how "advanced" they are.

Modifié par Shaani, 28 janvier 2013 - 04:54 .

[Helios969]

Also, I wholly believe that those who support the synthesis ending would never be able to choose synthesis if they had really experienced the madness of the reapers. Watching their loved ones being indoctrinated and turned against them or systematically slaughtered for their genetic material...who really could forgive such carnage? Who could put aside the need for retribution for a loftier principle? Those are your mother and father, sisters and brothers, and friends the reapers are butchering. Sorry, not buying it...it stretches the bounds of credibility.

[Wayning_Star]

d4eaming wrote...

Simply because the ending slides don't show people upset with the outcome does not mean that EVERYONE is ok with it. It is a basic assumption to say that no one minds being genetically altered. You are making nothing but an assumption that the 100+ billion people in the entire galaxy is ok with it. That is utterly absurd, and is very blinkered. If everyone is ok with it, then it is very likely that the genetic tinkering also changed their brains, altering their emotions on the whole deal. The slides are not going to show every single individual and state their personal feelings on the matter. You are extrapolating from the very few shown to say that it applies to every single person/synthetic in existence. It's like polling ten people and asking if they like popsickles, they say yes, then you decide that means the other 6+ billion people on Earth also like popsicles.

or don't like popsicles..

Public opinion never really matters to the governments unless its election time, and then it's an abstract, to alter political fodder. It's why other people are put in charge as other people don't need the problems associated with intergalactic varibles..

IN the MEU, it doesn't matter, as the entire chaos of it is thrust upon them, not chosen. Especially the choices menu.

Eventhough outragious, the synthesis is the most powerful and practical solution for the MEU. Intigration on a galactic scale. But really just a byproduct of the Leviathan tinkering with their version of reality. Those with the most toys creates the MEU synthesis ending..

[Wayning_Star]

Helios969 wrote...

Also, I wholly believe that those who support the synthesis ending would never be able to choose synthesis if they had really experienced the madness of the reapers. Watching their loved ones being indoctrinated and turned against them or systematically slaughtered for their genetic material...who really could forgive such carnage? Who could put aside the need for retribution for a loftier principle? Those are your mother and father, sisters and brothers, and friends the reapers are butchering. Sorry, not buying it...it stretches the bounds of credibility.

who says anything about forgive? What's up with that?

[Wayning_Star]

reaper=tool catalyst=tool synthesis=tools in use

any questions?

[Helios969]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Also, I wholly believe that those who support the synthesis ending would never be able to choose synthesis if they had really experienced the madness of the reapers. Watching their loved ones being indoctrinated and turned against them or systematically slaughtered for their genetic material...who really could forgive such carnage? Who could put aside the need for retribution for a loftier principle? Those are your mother and father, sisters and brothers, and friends the reapers are butchering. Sorry, not buying it...it stretches the bounds of credibility.

who says anything about forgive? What's up with that?

Maybe the wrong word, but my point still stands.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Wayning_Star wrote...

reaper=tool catalyst=tool synthesis=tools in use

any questions?

nope

[Wayning_Star]

Helios969 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Also, I wholly believe that those who support the synthesis ending would never be able to choose synthesis if they had really experienced the madness of the reapers. Watching their loved ones being indoctrinated and turned against them or systematically slaughtered for their genetic material...who really could forgive such carnage? Who could put aside the need for retribution for a loftier principle? Those are your mother and father, sisters and brothers, and friends the reapers are butchering. Sorry, not buying it...it stretches the bounds of credibility.

who says anything about forgive? What's up with that?

Maybe the wrong word, but my point still stands.

regulating a tools use isn't forgiving it. Besides, the catalyst says fire burns, so the reaperships are no more than toasters to it. When we burn our toast,who do we end up forgiving for it? The toaster?

realizing that the reaperships are just semi intelligent pawns and storage units, abeit gross in their 'function' doesn't lend to them more responsibility for their 'assigned' actions. They have NO choices, they are under the thumb of the catalyst.Even the Levi are under it's decree.

Sure we can blow up the ships, the catalyst, but does that root out the supposed 'evil' that created them? Who created them, why did they do that stupid thing, what would stop them from doing it again and again?

What would 'do the MOST good, if we can call it that..considering what that might mean in the MEU?

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 28 janvier 2013 - 05:16 .

[Shaani]

Wayning_Star wrote...

realizing that the reaperships are just semi intelligent pawns and storage units, abeit gross in their 'function' doesn't lend to them more responsibility for their 'assigned' actions. They have NO choices, they are under the thumb of the catalyst.Even the Levi are under it's decree.

That's not how it works, though.  Let me quote the wiki.

The Catalyst, also known as the Intelligence, is an ancient artificial intelligence that resides within the Citadel. It embodies the collective consciousness and memories of the Reapers, and thus countless ancient civilizations.

The Catalyst is the Reapers.  The Reapers are the Catalyst.  The Reapers are individually conscious and those consiousnesses make up the totality that is the Catalyst.

In the Control ending, you're erasing the Catalyst's program and replacing it with a new one based on yourself.  In Synthesis, you are chosing to grant the Catalyst (along with all other synthetics)  a measure of yourself, of humanity.  You are also granting all organic beings a measure of the Catalyst.

By choosing Synthesis, you are choosing to spare the Catalyst, or at least it's component intellects.

I am saying that regardless of what happens, no other form of life, organic or otherwise, with even a shred of self-preservation will ever sleep soundly again so long as the Catalyst exists. 

Modifié par Shaani, 28 janvier 2013 - 05:16 .

[Helios969]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

Also, I wholly believe that those who support the synthesis ending would never be able to choose synthesis if they had really experienced the madness of the reapers. Watching their loved ones being indoctrinated and turned against them or systematically slaughtered for their genetic material...who really could forgive such carnage? Who could put aside the need for retribution for a loftier principle? Those are your mother and father, sisters and brothers, and friends the reapers are butchering. Sorry, not buying it...it stretches the bounds of credibility.

who says anything about forgive? What's up with that?

Maybe the wrong word, but my point still stands.

regulating a tools use isn't forgiving it. Besides, the catalyst says fire burns, so the reaperships are no more than toasters to it. When we burn our toast,who do we end up forgiving for it? The toaster?

realizing that the reaperships are just semi intelligent pawns and storage units, abeit gross in their 'function' doesn't lend to them more responsibility for their 'assigned' actions. They have NO choices, they are under the thumb of the catalyst.Even the Levi are under it's decree.

Sure we can blow up the ships, the catalsyt, but does that root out the supposed 'evil' that created them? Who created them, why did they do that stupid thing, what would stop them from doing it again and again?

What would 'do the MOST good, if we can call it that..considering what that might mean in the MEU?

I still think you're missing my point, but I'm talking about reality of human nature (not videogame context.)  Even though it's an arbitary number, I say 99% of people would shoot the tube if they really experienced the reaper genocide.  Maybe your part of the rare 1%, but most people are reactionary creatures who will only care about the utter annihilation of the catalyst/reapers.  Just take an objective look at human history over the past 20 or 30 years.  Most people could not put aside their need for vengence for the "betterment" of all (if it really is better.)  Humankind is largely very shortsighted.  Collectively, we are a "now" race of people.

[Mouton_Alpha]

Helios969 wrote...

I still think you're missing my point, but I'm talking about reality of human nature (not videogame context.)  Even though it's an arbitary number, I say 99% of people would shoot the tube if they really experienced the reaper genocide.  Maybe your part of the rare 1%, but most people are reactionary creatures who will only care about the utter annihilation of the catalyst/reapers.  Just take an objective look at human history over the past 20 or 30 years.  Most people could not put aside their need for vengence for the "betterment" of all (if it really is better.)  Humankind is largely very shortsighted.  Collectively, we are a "now" race of people.

If we are talking about reality, then I am afraid you are making a broad assumption on other people's views, basing on your own personal perception. While most people would, indeed, go for the revenge, there are many more philosophical and less vengenful people out there than you make it out to be. It is also reinforced by both history AND present times.