217 réponses à ce sujet

[Wayning_Star]

[/quote]

gotta keep in mind, this is a video game and it's Shep whos at the crossroad, not everyone,all at once. Sitting at a game console or computer system making galactic desision doesn't actually result in reality shifts at home.
(maybe

We're really just Shep 'advisors'..detatched as it were. [/quote]

I dunno...much of what appeals to me about the ME universe are many of the themes that have "real world" relevance.  They make you think...for people who like that sort of thing.  There are no easy moral questions, as any decision will have consequences for a multitude of others.  No matter what, a certain percentage will be resentful of anything that takes away the control they believe they have over their own lives (real or imagined.)[/quote]

Just as long as the imagined part don't relate too much to the real part, and vis a vis. Kind of takes the fun out of galactic decision  making processes...

Heres a song that may apply..for lolz

[Shaani]

If you want to approach this on a less realistic and more in-character basis, then imagine you're a person who blew up a Batarian relay and killed hundreds of thousands of people to buy the galaxy a little more time.

You might lose sleep over the Geth and EDI, but I don't think you're going to reject the option out of hand.

[Helios969]

[quote]Wayning_Star wrote...

[/quote]

gotta keep in mind, this is a video game and it's Shep whos at the crossroad, not everyone,all at once. Sitting at a game console or computer system making galactic desision doesn't actually result in reality shifts at home.
(maybe

We're really just Shep 'advisors'..detatched as it were. [/quote]

I dunno...much of what appeals to me about the ME universe are many of the themes that have "real world" relevance.  They make you think...for people who like that sort of thing.  There are no easy moral questions, as any decision will have consequences for a multitude of others.  No matter what, a certain percentage will be resentful of anything that takes away the control they believe they have over their own lives (real or imagined.)[/quote]

Just as long as the imagined part don't relate too much to the real part, and vis a vis. Kind of takes the fun out of galactic decision  making processes...

Heres a song that may apply..for lolz

[/quote]

Nice.  We need a bawling baby icon.

[Wayning_Star]

Shaani wrote...

If you want to approach this on a less realistic and more in-character basis, then imagine you're a person who blew up a Batarian relay and killed hundreds of thousands of people to buy the galaxy a little more time.

You might lose sleep over the Geth and EDI, but I don't think you're going to reject the option out of hand.

yeah, I didn't like much that DLC... kind of a 'set up' for Shep via the bioware writers.. We only have ONE choice in that one, or the returns were epic fail..

WTF were they thinking then as opposed to the endgame?

[Wayning_Star]

[quote]Helios969 wrote...

[quote]Wayning_Star wrote...

[/quote]

gotta keep in mind, this is a video game and it's Shep whos at the crossroad, not everyone,all at once. Sitting at a game console or computer system making galactic desision doesn't actually result in reality shifts at home.
(maybe

We're really just Shep 'advisors'..detatched as it were. [/quote]

I dunno...much of what appeals to me about the ME universe are many of the themes that have "real world" relevance.  They make you think...for people who like that sort of thing.  There are no easy moral questions, as any decision will have consequences for a multitude of others.  No matter what, a certain percentage will be resentful of anything that takes away the control they believe they have over their own lives (real or imagined.)[/quote]

Just as long as the imagined part don't relate too much to the real part, and vis a vis. Kind of takes the fun out of galactic decision  making processes...

Heres a song that may apply..for lolz

[/quote]

Nice.  We need a bawling baby icon.
[/quote]

heheh, cheer up..it'll probably get worse..lol

[DirtySHISN0]

It really boils down to "is rape preferable to murder?".

Control and synthesis Vs. destroy.


Getting tired of all these people claiming Synthesis is disgusting while they willfully acknowledge and ignore the equally disgusting Destroy.

[Helios969]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Shaani wrote...

If you want to approach this on a less realistic and more in-character basis, then imagine you're a person who blew up a Batarian relay and killed hundreds of thousands of people to buy the galaxy a little more time.

You might lose sleep over the Geth and EDI, but I don't think you're going to reject the option out of hand.

yeah, I didn't like much that DLC... kind of a 'set up' for Shep via the bioware writers.. We only have ONE choice in that one, or the returns were epic fail..

WTF were they thinking then as opposed to the endgame?

Well, in principle you have a choice.  It's comparible to the "refuse" ending.  Destroy the mass relay and by extension the Batarian colony, or refuse to and let the Reapers trollop through the galaxy unchecked.

[Shaani]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

It really boils down to "is rape preferable to murder?".

Well, going by that train of logic, Shepard already murdered 300,000 people in Arrival.

So it actually really boils down to "Would you rather be a murderer, or a murderer and a rapist?"

[Helios969]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

It really boils down to "is rape preferable to murder?".

Control and synthesis Vs. destroy.


Getting tired of all these people claiming Synthesis is disgusting while they willfully acknowledge and ignore the equally disgusting Destroy.

I don't think that's what most people are doing.  People who are really into this discussion have put considerable thought into their decisions (all the way around.)  No one is ignoring the ugly moral implications of their choice, at least not those who have actually thought about it beyond a simple videogame.  Most of this discussion is about what people would actually do if they had witnessed all the carnage in the game.  Could any of us really be rational in Shep's place?

Modifié par Helios969, 28 janvier 2013 - 07:00 .

[Mouton_Alpha]

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

It really boils down to "is rape preferable to murder?".

Control and synthesis Vs. destroy.


Getting tired of all these people claiming Synthesis is disgusting while they willfully acknowledge and ignore the equally disgusting Destroy.

Getting tired of people calling Synthesis "rape" simply because they live in denial of how malleable and changing their minds and bodies are.

[ruggly]

Plus the entire galaxy gave up their right to choose when
they(metaphorically) got on their hands and knees to beg Shepard to save
their asses from being killed. They don't care about the means, only
the goal: survival.

I feel it's a bit far reaching to say that the entire galaxy got down and prayed for Shepard to do whatever.  We only know 1% of the galaxy.  It isn't right, in my opinion, to then change ALL (and in my opinion again, any of the races involved in the war, but I digress) of the galaxy, the "primitive" races, the slightly less "primitive" races that don't even know that this war is going on.  They don't know about the Reapers or Shepard, so...

Now you just gave any T-Rex like race the ability to create synthetic arms to reach ****.  Good job.

Also, my suspension of disbelief exploded when the crucible managed to change all life in the galaxy.  Exploded everywhere.

[Helios969]

ruggly wrote...

Plus the entire galaxy gave up their right to choose when
they(metaphorically) got on their hands and knees to beg Shepard to save
their asses from being killed. They don't care about the means, only
the goal: survival.

I feel it's a bit far reaching to say that the entire galaxy got down and prayed for Shepard to do whatever.  We only know 1% of the galaxy.  It isn't right, in my opinion, to then change ALL (and in my opinion again, any of the races involved in the war, but I digress) of the galaxy, the "primitive" races, the slightly less "primitive" races that don't even know that this war is going on.  They don't know about the Reapers or Shepard, so...

Now you just gave any T-Rex like race the ability to create synthetic arms to reach ****.  Good job.

Also, my suspension of disbelief exploded when the crucible managed to change all life in the galaxy.  Exploded everywhere.

Well, there is that...the scientific absurdity of synthesis.

[Shaani]

Wayning_Star wrote...

We only have ONE choice in that one, or the returns were epic fail..

You actually don't have any choices.  This is where the whole "rape/murder" thing breaks down.  Shepard never wanted to destroy that relay; events were already in motion by the time Shepard arrived that simply couldn't be undone.  Shepard acted to save lives, not end them.

Did Shepard destroy the Relay?  Yes.  Was it Shepard's fault that those people had to die?  Absolutely not.  Shepard was assaulted, betrayed, and left with no other option.

It's the same with the Crucible.  Shepard warned the Council years ago.  They could have acted (albeit drastically) and maybe stalled the Reapers or built up enough forces to challenge them.  They chose to ignore it. 

The Crucible is the best Shepard can do for the galaxy, under those circumstances.  It's not perfect, but that's because the people who could have made a perfect answer to the Reapers chose not to listen.  Pinning it all on the one person who's been trying to avoid this since the beginning is absurd.

[Wayning_Star]

Helios969 wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

It really boils down to "is rape preferable to murder?".

Control and synthesis Vs. destroy.


Getting tired of all these people claiming Synthesis is disgusting while they willfully acknowledge and ignore the equally disgusting Destroy.

I don't think that's what most people are doing.  People who are really into this discussion have put considerable thought into their decisions (all the way around.)  No one is ignoring the ugly moral implications of their choice, at least not those who have actually thought about it beyond a simple videogame.  Most of this discussion is about what people would actually do if they had witnessed all the carnage in the game.  Could any of us really be rational in Shep's place?

another way to look at it is to question whether it's rational to actually try and be in Sheps place in the MEU.

It's not, but that's the attraction to immersive video games.. i. e. learning from mistakes.

(btw, I never make mistakes so.. it's hard to relate..but on I go...

[Wayning_Star]

Shaani wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

We only have ONE choice in that one, or the returns were epic fail..

You actually don't have any choices.  This is where the whole "rape/murder" thing breaks down.  Shepard never wanted to destroy that relay; events were already in motion by the time Shepard arrived that simply couldn't be undone.  Shepard acted to save lives, not end them.

Did Shepard destroy the Relay?  Yes.  Was it Shepard's fault that those people had to die?  Absolutely not.  Shepard was assaulted, betrayed, and left with no other option.

It's the same with the Crucible.  Shepard warned the Council years ago.  They could have acted (albeit drastically) and maybe stalled the Reapers or built up enough forces to challenge them.  They chose to ignore it. 

The Crucible is the best Shepard can do for the galaxy, under those circumstances.  It's not perfect, but that's because the people who could have made a perfect answer to the Reapers chose not to listen.  Pinning it all on the one person who's been trying to avoid this since the beginning is absurd.

ahhh, making the 'rules' as we go.. interesting game technique..lol

[Wayning_Star]

Helios969 wrote...

ruggly wrote...

Plus the entire galaxy gave up their right to choose when
they(metaphorically) got on their hands and knees to beg Shepard to save
their asses from being killed. They don't care about the means, only
the goal: survival.

I feel it's a bit far reaching to say that the entire galaxy got down and prayed for Shepard to do whatever.  We only know 1% of the galaxy.  It isn't right, in my opinion, to then change ALL (and in my opinion again, any of the races involved in the war, but I digress) of the galaxy, the "primitive" races, the slightly less "primitive" races that don't even know that this war is going on.  They don't know about the Reapers or Shepard, so...

Now you just gave any T-Rex like race the ability to create synthetic arms to reach ****.  Good job.

Also, my suspension of disbelief exploded when the crucible managed to change all life in the galaxy.  Exploded everywhere.

Well, there is that...the scientific absurdity of synthesis.

IN the MEU, there is NO such thing as scientific absurdity... Thats the fun part of synthesis.. it actually worked.

(too bad about the destroy option and control..problematic, at best.)

[Volc19]

You see, this is why I pick Control. The only ones who feel a change are Shepard and the Catalyst (who is overwritten and killed). The Synthetics get to live out their lives freely and as equals, and the Organics don't get changed beyond recognition. And, to top it all off, there is a Reaper armada rebuilding the damage from the war and standing at the ready to protect the Galaxy.

[Wayning_Star]

Volc19 wrote...

You see, this is why I pick Control. The only ones who feel a change are Shepard and the Catalyst (who is overwritten and killed). The Synthetics get to live out their lives freely and as equals, and the Organics don't get changed beyond recognition. And, to top it all off, there is a Reaper armada rebuilding the damage from the war and standing at the ready to protect the Galaxy.

actually, Shep takes the rap for the catalyst and remains a reapership for until ever reaches it's apex..and reaperships are still about, relying on Shep to tow the line. I couldn't do it to Shep myself on those grounds. Rather jumble DNA molecules to keep everyone out of mischeif for a, hopefully, longer while.. Nature will always take it's course, in any event..apparently.

If evolution is intgral to nature, then nature positions all who evolve with the snafu. Beings in general overate themselves as to acclaim that propencity, even IF they're animate, still just cosmic objects, or subjected to Natures whim and undisclosed purpose.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[nos_astra]

One of the funniest things about synthesis is that everyone is rewritten/redesigned/improved on the fly. You know, one second your old organic brain is at work, synapses firing and everything and a fraction of a second later you've been changed, as thoroughly as possible.

You still work, though. You don't even faint or something. You just shrug it off and go on. Weird. Synthesis takes the concept of plug&play to new heights. Though, it's probably closer to redesigning the processor of a computer while it's active and working and ... busy processing things. Weird. Gives a new meaning to the phrase "never touch a running system".

Modifié par klarabella, 28 janvier 2013 - 07:58 .

[PinkToolTheater]

I think the ending is what Shepard thinks is going to happen - sunshine and rainbows. In reality think of the number of living beings that would probably commit suicide because they can't deal with who they become. Think of a beautiful woman looking in the mirror, and realizing she is half robot - that screws with your brain.

Also, how do these new synthetic+organic things reproduce? Do they stop having babies and just live endless lives? What about babies (like Jacobs kids in his GFs womb) what happens to them?

[Wayning_Star]

klarabella wrote...

One of the funniest things about synthesis is that everyone is rewritten/redesigned/improved on the fly. You know one second your old organic brain is at work, synapses firing and everything and a fraction of a second later you've been changed, as thoroughly as possible.

You still work. You don't even faint or something. You just shrug it off and go on. Weird. Synthesis takes the concept of plug&play to new heights. It's probably closer to redesigning the processor in a computer while it's active and working and ... busy processing things. Weird. Gives a new meaning to the phrase "never touch a running system".

I found it strange that the system of event of synthesis even alters plantlife. Why would that be necessary if 'intellect' were the basis of change for the supposed betterment of the galaxy?

Leads me to believe that it's purpose was to actually change nature it's  self. Make it more, sociable..give it 'intellect'.. that kind of spooks me..

[Wayning_Star]

PinkToolTheater wrote...

I think the ending is what Shepard thinks is going to happen - sunshine and rainbows. In reality think of the number of living beings that would probably commit suicide because they can't deal with who they become. Think of a beautiful woman looking in the mirror, and realizing she is half robot - that screws with your brain.

Also, how do these new synthetic+organic things reproduce? Do they stop having babies and just live endless lives? What about babies (like Jacobs kids in his GFs womb) what happens to them?

but if suicide is in their nature, that is mentality, they'll figure out how to pull that off in any event. Nature taking another ugly course...

(prime directives off star trek don't count in the MEU..lol)

edit: babies are babies regardless of how plant life exist in the sythesised MEU. Why would they be any different than adults?

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 28 janvier 2013 - 07:49 .

[Mouton_Alpha]

Helios969 wrote...

This of course is purely an academic discussion...still I have a hard time reconciling more than a few people overcoming the trauma (quickly enough) to choose synthesis, (moral implications aside.)  And if we put this purely in the context of Shepard who has witness the systematic genocide the reapers are inflicting, he or she is more than likely gonna shoot the tube.

Thinking about all this, I wonder what other ingame characters would choose. I am not sure that would be so clear cut. Tevos, Liara, many Asari, Thane(if he lived) just might choose Synthesis. Samara and Javik would choose Destroy, obviously. But Hackett or Victus could choose either Destroy or Control, seeing as they are powerful generals often looking at the bigger picture. Tali also could be torn - hell, she could actually choose Synthesis, seeing as the Geth/Quarian peace is not that far from it. Salarians could pick any options, them being analytical, pragmatic and thinking out of the box. Garrus is also an enigma in this aspect, he can both brutal and sensitive. And huggable. Come to think of it Liara could choose Control too, considering her Shadow Broker hobby of controlling everything remotely. Vega and Ashley would probably just Destroy, them being soldiers liking to shoot things in the face until they are dead. EDI is obviously a blue/green person.

Nah, not clear cut at all, imo.

[Wayning_Star]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

This of course is purely an academic discussion...still I have a hard time reconciling more than a few people overcoming the trauma (quickly enough) to choose synthesis, (moral implications aside.)  And if we put this purely in the context of Shepard who has witness the systematic genocide the reapers are inflicting, he or she is more than likely gonna shoot the tube.

Thinking about all this, I wonder what other ingame characters would choose. I am not sure that would be so clear cut. Tevos, Liara, many Asari, Thane(if he lived) just might choose Synthesis. Samara and Javik would choose Destroy, obviously. But Hackett or Victus could choose either Destroy or Control, seeing as they are powerful generals often looking at the bigger picture. Tali also could be torn - hell, she could actually choose Synthesis, seeing as the Geth/Quarian peace is not that far from it. Salarians could pick any options, them being analytical, pragmatic and thinking out of the box. Garrus is also an enigma in this aspect, he can both brutal and sensitive. And huggable. Come to think of it Liara could choose Control too, considering her Shadow Broker hobby of controlling everything remotely. Vega and Ashley would probably just Destroy, them being soldiers liking to shoot things in the face until they are dead. EDI is obviously a blue/green person.

Nah, not clear cut at all, imo.

TIM: control
Anderson: Destroy
Shep: wild card

I remember the conversations of the three, mainly TIM as he describes Anderson as 'stuck on stupid' and then Shep, blinded by duty, but possilbly controllable.. Anderson still tries to convince Shep that TIM is 'indoctrinated'. Like that is something new?

The writers are insane, send in the clown act..with paint filled balloons.. but the catalyst never ever talks the talk as if it represents any decision Shep might make, or should.

[Reorte]

Mouton_Alpha wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

It really boils down to "is rape preferable to murder?".

Control and synthesis Vs. destroy.


Getting tired of all these people claiming Synthesis is disgusting while they willfully acknowledge and ignore the equally disgusting Destroy.

Equally disgusting? I'm very worried that you'd think that. One of them affects one species, the other affects every single living thing in the galaxy and will change things for all life forever. Destroy is the lesser evil.

Getting tired of people calling Synthesis "rape" simply because they live in denial of how malleable and changing their minds and bodies are.

What on earth are you on about?