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[Obitim]

Shaani wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

cannot trust the catalyst but can trust the organic leviathan to let us know how things are going for them, an apex race..that used to own the galaxy and looks at nature it's self as their tool kit...

oh, I'm certain there are only one or two of them around right now, and just a few random thralls about...sure it's true as everyone knows..from the slides.

(read dripping sarcasm)

They've had a billion years to rise up and reclaim their throne and defeat the Reapers.  If they were capable of doing so, they'd have done it.

But the reapers were too numerous, they;ve had to remain hidden during each cycle, the only reason They've come into this war is because Shepard was looking for them specifically.  On their own they're an insignificant threat to the reapers, with all the races in the galaxy as allies they're more. Once the reapers are gone who will keep them in check, I supose they were shown in this light to add more weight to the destroy option for the people who think that EDI and the Geth are expendalbe.

Apologies, I did see that you never went down the rape/murder path and I respect that, what I took issue with was the tone of what you wrote which seemed to be 'my way is the correct way' if it wasn;t meant like that then cool...

[Uncle Jo]

fainmaca wrote...

What personally troubles me about Synthesis (and the ending as a whole, really), is that it doesn't leave any room to view synthetics as a valid form of life. Apparently they are wrong, not belonging in the universe, and therefore must be changed 'for the good of the galaxy'. I strongly believe that EDI was always alive, from the moment she woke up on Luna and began reacting to the world around her in a way she judged to be right and necessary. I also believe that the Geth were a valid form of life from the moment they 'woke up' on Rannoch three centuries previously. To me, they fulfilled all the requirements to be considered sentient Life from that moment. What the endings tell us is that this is wrong. EDi's just a machine. Legion was just a machine, and they cannot be a part of this galaxy unless they are merged with organics and become living beings. Either that, or we must control them to keep their wrongness from destroying the Galaxy, or they must all be destroyed. There is no room in the Galaxy for their diversity.

what makes Synthesis in particular a difficult ending for me is the fact that synthetics aren't the only invalid life form. We are, too. The only way to achieve a perfect Galaxy is to allow the dominion of the hybrids. Both organics and synthetics must be replaced with a fusion of the two.

I don't like being told that I'm wrong for the Galaxy, that I shouldn't exist as I am and that there's no room for my kind in existance.

Absolutely true. According to the brat (and some players), the synthetics are indeed the pariahs/problem of the galaxy. No matter what they do or achieve by themselves, it'll never be enough.
So much for the self-determination, tolerance and the acceptance of the difference. How someone could give credit to this nonsensical rant supported by the most insane, "racist" and delusional antagonist I've ever seen, is something beyond me.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 31 janvier 2013 - 10:59 .

[Obitim]

However, I thought that, according to the Catalyst, the issue is that the synthetics will overtake organic life and so war will ensue. I thought that EDI stated that she can't actually feel but can make calculations based on experience?

So consequently, synthesis allows the synthetics to feel. I agree that I considered EDI and the Geth alive once they reached self awareness, synthesis just gives them the ability to feel...

'Giuppetto...I'm a real boy!'

[Uncle Jo]

Obitim wrote...

However, I thought that, according to the Catalyst, the issue is that the synthetics will overtake organic life and so war will ensue. I thought that EDI stated that she can't actually feel but can make calculations based on experience?

So consequently, synthesis allows the synthetics to feel. I agree that I considered EDI and the Geth alive once they reached self awareness, synthesis just gives them the ability to feel...

'Giuppetto...I'm a real boy!'

Based on what? As soon as he started the cycles the brat condemned us to repeat the same mistakes again, again and again. Unless he can read the future, there is no way he can say it will happen. A probability, yes. A certainty? No. To hell with him, his pre-emptive genocides and his final solution.

EDI find the Reapers repulsive, she's afraid (dialogue with Shep in Priority Earth), she's ready to die for the organics. Aren't those feelings? Even if they're calculations based on experience?
Why do the synthetics necessarily have to feel exactly the same way as the organics? They're different from us, their emotions and the way to express them should be different as well.

Modifié par Uncle Jo, 31 janvier 2013 - 11:39 .

[Obitim]

No, they're calculations, emotions are partially chemical reactions, which is why EDI asks Shep about various things...the 2 are different.

Why do the synthetics necessarily have to feel exactly the same way as the organics? They're different from us, their emotions and the way to express them should be different as well. - This is part of synthesis - the fact that organics and synthetics are fundamentally different so it levels the playing field, well that's my take on it, I'm sure there are other people who support synthesis who have different interpretations.

It's based on the catalyst saying that at the end of the game, and what the Leviathans tell Shep, that conflict was inevitable, in it's limited remit, that is how the catalyst viewed the progress of AI.

This is all based on how I find the endings and what I've taken from the game.

And I guess that's how I feel this is a game and I've taken from it what I want, I like the synthesis idea more than destroy or control and so that's what I went with, to me, it feels like that is what the designers were going for as the 'best solution' (but only because no race is sacrificed or subjugated) but again, this is only what I take from it and I accept that other people will see things in a different light and good for them, that's what it should be and what the designers wanted.

[Shaani]

Obitim wrote...

But the reapers were too numerous, they;ve had to remain hidden during each cycle, the only reason They've come into this war is because Shepard was looking for them specifically.  On their own they're an insignificant threat to the reapers, with all the races in the galaxy as allies they're more.

 

Yes.  After a billion years, the Reapers are still too numerous, and they are insignficant without us.

Once the reapers are gone who will keep them in check,

The united galaxy that is the only thing between them and insignficance.

[Obitim]

Shaani wrote...

Obitim wrote...

But the reapers were too numerous, they;ve had to remain hidden during each cycle, the only reason They've come into this war is because Shepard was looking for them specifically.  On their own they're an insignificant threat to the reapers, with all the races in the galaxy as allies they're more.

 

Yes.  After a billion years, the Reapers are still too numerous, and they are insignficant without us.

Once the reapers are gone who will keep them in check,

The united galaxy that is the only thing between them and insignficance.

But we've seen that they can indoctrinate an entire facility, perhaps there are other places off the radar?

Not insignificant, they know the strength of the reapers and they had already lost to them in a previous war?

[Shaani]

Obitim wrote...

Not insignificant, they know the strength of the reapers

So do we.  It wasn't enough to go run and hide for a billion years.

[Obitim]

Shaani wrote...

Obitim wrote...

Not insignificant, they know the strength of the reapers

So do we.  It wasn't enough to go run and hide for a billion years.

But they've also had countless cycles to observe them in action, we've not had that.

And you've not countered on the fact regarding the facilities they've subverted that we don;t know about?

Anywho, this isn't getting us anywhere, you appear to be pro destroy and I'm not, neither of us is going to bring the other to our way of thinking so let's leave it for now eh?

Modifié par Obitim, 31 janvier 2013 - 12:31 .

[Ieldra]

Uncle Jo wrote...

Obitim wrote...
However, I thought that, according to the Catalyst, the issue is that the synthetics will overtake organic life and so war will ensue. I thought that EDI stated that she can't actually feel but can make calculations based on experience?

So consequently, synthesis allows the synthetics to feel. I agree that I considered EDI and the Geth alive once they reached self awareness, synthesis just gives them the ability to feel...

'Giuppetto...I'm a real boy!'

Based on what? As soon as he started the cycles the brat condemned us to repeat the same mistakes again, again and again. Unless he can read the future, there is no way he can say it will happen. A probability, yes. A certainty? No.

If the probability, according to the Catalyst's model of the development of civilizations, is 99.9999%, you might as well treat it as a certainty.
Let's say the statement is "Any organic civilization which has built synthetic intelligence that surpasses its creators will enter, with a probability of 99.9999%, into a conflict with its creations which will destroy it." You can try this 10000 times and the cumulative probability of at least one civilization being able to avoid this fate will still be less than 1% [=1-0.999999^10000]. Try this 50000 times and it's still less than 5%. Now assume that a new civilization of that kind will emerge every 50k years and you'll have a time period of 2.5 billion years covered and a 95% probability that all civilizations have been destroyed by the conflict. You don't need certainty to see that the Catalyst may have a point, and that it says "always" just means that it's "always for all practical purposes". Personally, I would prefer the Catalyst told us its conclusions in terms of probability, but then I know something about statistics and know how to interpret such stuff, and most players do not. They're better served with "always". Even "Almost always" would be confusing the issue, for it suggests that there is a *significant* probability of this not happening.

Why do the synthetics necessarily have to feel exactly the same way as the organics? They're different from us, their emotions and the way to express them should be different as well.

I see this as a fallout of the EC retcon. You see, I think the writers recognized that the original Synthesis made no sense at all with its "hybrid DNA-analogue" and also recognized that there is no "organic" and "synthetic" on the molecular level. So they changed the exposition to have organics and synthetics affected in different ways. Integrating technology was a rather obvious result for organics, but how should synthetics be affected? They must be affected in some way, gain some thematically organic trait, or the ending concept of a "synthesis" couldn't be upheld. I recall I suggested something like "give them empathy" in my first Synthesis thread. That wasn't well thought through, and back then I was unaware of the thematic implication. Apparently the writers made the same mistake. I don't like the thematic implication that synthetics are better off or only "valid" when having organic-like empathy, but I can personally attest to the fact that it's quite possible to remain unaware of it for some time. Add the extreme pressure the writers were in after the ending, and I think this is a "thematic accident".

The only other solution would've been to make things even more vague, like in the leaked script. "Synthetics will become more like organics and vice versa". That might have worked in the original endings, but once the sh*t had hit the fan with the OE, there needed to be something more substantial.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 janvier 2013 - 01:00 .

[DarthLaxian]

john_sheparrd wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Synthesis is the only option that manages to be a greater evil than the Reaper's cycle...
It's an ending that would make Josef Mengele blush...


It's the most digsuting and horrible thing I've seen in fiction...

agree 100% how can someone really pick synthesis??

because we do not want to make a sacrifice (edi, geth - other synthetics (like that AI that was on the citadel in ME1)) and we dislike sheppard becomig a reaper (more or less)

and because i - personally - see the benefits (hell, being partly synthetic might make you either very long lived or even IMMORTAL! and it might heal terminally ill patients (or patients that have illnesses that can't be healed - like Joker!))

that does however not mean, that i like the endings, IMHO synthesis is the best of 3 bad choices (your hero "dies" in all of them...the breath scene is rubbish, the citadel blew up, we were on it, so it makes NO sense!)

greetings LAX
ps: i like refuse, too

Modifié par DarthLaxian, 31 janvier 2013 - 01:44 .

[Helios969]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Auld Wulf wrote...

Helios969 wrote...

The way synthesis will one day work for [organics] is by incorporating synthetic technologies into our bodies.  A process that will largely be choice-based.  It will not have anything to do with essence or spirit or merging all sentient life.

I could hug you right now.

yeah, like everyone has choice now as to what is installed into the body to provide life support technology. And that is here in realtime, on old earth. Advance the time machine back to the MEU future,an then imagine the 'idea' of what choices are opposed to what is 'demanded' by citizens of that time period. You cannot impose our values systems on beings,even alien and synthetic and expect the same results.

That's why I said "largely" choice based.  However there will be social stigmas in any far future where a large majority embrace such a hybrid existence for those who fear such change and follow a neo-luddist existence.  Those holdouts will be viewed as outsiders and radicals...conspiracy nutters.  There will also be competition issues.  The human who has been "upgraded" will have advantages over the human who has not in most applications.  I doubt it'll be some dystopic future in which we're upgraded at the end of the gun.  One of the probable benefits of upgrading might well be longer lifespans, something the government wouldn't necessarily want to encourage.

[DirtySHISN0]

Shaani wrote...

DirtySHISN0 wrote...

By that logic In destroy, where does it ever state that evolution will continue?

There isn't a catagorical yes or no to these questions, just implications and common sense.

It's never in question in Destroy, because Destroy does not let the Reapers overwrite the biology of every living thing.

It wasn't in question in synthesis, you called suspicion because it wasn't specifically referenced - which it also isn't in destroy. It is unanswered and open ended, you take what you wan't from it and interpret it as you see fit. If you wan't evolution to stop in Synthesis to validate your own selection process, then thats your prerogative. It doesn't, however apply to other peoples opinion.

Also, it is shepard who synthesises everyone - with a machine of the galaxy's own creation i might add, not the reapers. Unless your an IT fan, in which case it is still not certain.

Anyway thats enough on pedantics. We can call it quits here.

Modifié par DirtySHISN0, 01 février 2013 - 12:41 .

[ruggly]

Uncle Jo wrote...

fainmaca wrote...

What personally troubles me about Synthesis (and the ending as a whole, really), is that it doesn't leave any room to view synthetics as a valid form of life. Apparently they are wrong, not belonging in the universe, and therefore must be changed 'for the good of the galaxy'. I strongly believe that EDI was always alive, from the moment she woke up on Luna and began reacting to the world around her in a way she judged to be right and necessary. I also believe that the Geth were a valid form of life from the moment they 'woke up' on Rannoch three centuries previously. To me, they fulfilled all the requirements to be considered sentient Life from that moment. What the endings tell us is that this is wrong. EDi's just a machine. Legion was just a machine, and they cannot be a part of this galaxy unless they are merged with organics and become living beings. Either that, or we must control them to keep their wrongness from destroying the Galaxy, or they must all be destroyed. There is no room in the Galaxy for their diversity.

what makes Synthesis in particular a difficult ending for me is the fact that synthetics aren't the only invalid life form. We are, too. The only way to achieve a perfect Galaxy is to allow the dominion of the hybrids. Both organics and synthetics must be replaced with a fusion of the two.

I don't like being told that I'm wrong for the Galaxy, that I shouldn't exist as I am and that there's no room for my kind in existance.

Absolutely true. According to the brat (and some players), the synthetics are indeed the pariahs/problem of the galaxy. No matter what they do or achieve by themselves, it'll never be enough.
So much for the self-determination, tolerance and the acceptance of the difference. How someone could give credit to this nonsensical rant supported by the most insane, "racist" and delusional antagonist I've ever seen, is something beyond me.

This bothers me as well.  In the synthesis epilogue, you get EDI's line about being alive and not alone.  I always thought she was alive before the endings, and she had my Shepard, Joker, the Normandy crew (not Javik though).  I'm not saying that synthesis gets rid of diversity,  but to be told that you have to have emotions or you have to be a hybrid to get along is...not a message I want to hear. 

[Shaani]

Obitim wrote...

Anywho, this isn't getting us anywhere, you appear to be pro destroy and I'm not, neither of us is going to bring the other to our way of thinking so let's leave it for now eh?

Well the thing is, I firmly believe that selecting Synthesis makes another war virtually inevitable, weakening the galaxy further, and selecting Control is not that different than just handing the galaxy over to the Leviathans anyway.

Making the Leviathans maybe possibly a threat (that's still not as big of a threat as the Reapers) doesn't make me want to choose any of the other endings.  Only changing Synthesis to get rid of the Reapers would do that.

Modifié par Shaani, 01 février 2013 - 02:00 .

[Obitim]

Shaani wrote...

Obitim wrote...

Anywho, this isn't getting us anywhere, you appear to be pro destroy and I'm not, neither of us is going to bring the other to our way of thinking so let's leave it for now eh?

Well the thing is, I firmly believe that selecting Synthesis makes another war virtually inevitable, weakening the galaxy further, and selecting Control is not that different than just handing the galaxy over to the Leviathans anyway.

Making the Leviathans maybe possibly a threat (that's still not as big of a threat as the Reapers) doesn't make me want to choose any of the other endings.  Only changing Synthesis to get rid of the Reapers would do that.

Fair do's, perhaps they should have made the Leviathans more of a threat than they did (as you say, there don't appear to be that many of them...).

I respect that you beleive that and why you do, and I enjoyed the discourse as well!

And with Control who knows what will happen to Shepard over the milennia?  Will he go a bit loopy?  will he decide on the same as the catalyst?

[Subject M]

CBGB wrote...

Say you count EDI as a living being.

That poses the most interesting questions about the Synthesis option, though the topic itself offers a good debate, an extension of Dr. Chakwas' argument with Engineer Adams. EDI and Legion share some traits we associate with life - curiosity, self-awareness, adaptation - they lack others: secretion, respiration, expiration. Perhaps even desire.

But if you see EDI as only an advanced machine, the Destroy ending comes at a lesser cost, whatever the merits of Synthesis.

It's when you believe EDI and the geth have the rights of Garrus and Liara that the choice becomes hard, even if you believe Synthetics have empathy. If you Destroy them, you've favored some lives over others, and is that merited when they all possess consciousness?

But if you spare them, what is the cost to organics? The Extended Cut shows all life in harmony, and touts ever-expanding knowledge, but I have to wonder what those peaceful Krogan share with their ancestors beyond a name. Do they still head-butt?

If Synthesis implies an inability to harbor ill-will towards others, it's a fair question whether it allows free will at all. Have you 'killed' Javik and Ashley only to replace them with complacent copies in the same skin? If we overwrite our fighting genes with kinder code, are we still free?

I hate the implication that a free spirit means lasting strife, that to be human, we must always have war. But the Synthesis ending makes me wonder: is perpetual peace unnatural to the point of being un-life-like?

To save EDI, do we have to kill James... and all his kin?

Allow me to give you my thoughts on your OP without having read the rest of the replies in this thread:

First of all, I think it is important to know the limits of what you can know and understand, especially when working with how things are defined. Organic life and synthetic life might share characteristics but they might also have entirely different qualities that are not understood very well, or at all from the other point of view. Someone existing within one existential spectra simple have a hard time understanding those existing in others. If they define something in a dualistic manner within their own spectra (for example: something must be like us or it is not alive/have no higher value/etc) you might run into serious problem of being able to understand the other which transcends your own "configuration"

This is part of the friction between synthetics and organics. Because they only share some qualities, other qualities are hidden from the experience and native understanding of the other.
No doubt organics lack qualities synthetics associate with existence or "life" just as synthetics lacks organic qualities.

The point with synthesis is to bridge the gap between these two different spectra.
As conflict so often is associated with lack of understanding or empathy, the two different groups given insight, understanding, existential contact and appreciation of the other - will be able to avoid misunderstandings, irrational fears and certain conflicts of interest that would have triggered large scale conflicts and wars of extinction. That is the core of the synthesis-plan and no doubt it can also logically be triggered post-control (I am thinking in a voluntary manner instead of the forced synthesis way.

I dislike the message of Destroy because it is a classical story  of "us vs them" used by those scary totalitariand ideologies of "racial purity" and "final solutions" involving wiping out the undesirable group". At least it mirrors them pretty well. (Yes, yes, all endings have problems)

[Shaani]

Subject M wrote...

I dislike the message of Destroy because it is a classical story  of "us vs them" used by those scary totalitariand ideologies of "racial purity" and "final solutions" involving wiping out the undesirable group". At least it mirrors them pretty well.

The message of Destroy is all races coming together to defeat a force bent on annihilating them, despite the regretable losses.

"We Stand as a United Galaxy" is the message of Hackett's speech, the name of the song being played, and the core theme of the ending.