41 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

I continue to argue for text tone identifiers to allow for more nuance.

[Anomaly-]

Here's my problem with the tone icons: They put the emphasis on tone, rather than the words themselves. This is bad for several reasons. First of all, what matters most is the substance of what someone says. That's what truly speaks to their personality and thought process. I'm not saying tone doesn't matter at all, but tone is easily influenced by simple things like mood. When I am in dialog, I like to pick the words that best match what I want to say. DA2 encourages the opposite, which is backwards to me. Not even knowing what I'm going to say makes absolutely no sense to me. Worse yet, it encourages you to consistently pick the same tone, because that's the only way you see any unique dialog. People aren't that 1 dimensional, and I typically don't want to be, but the system encourages it.

Plaintiff wrote...
How a character responds is irrelevent to my issue. Leliana could be indifferent or even hostile to flirtation, but that does not change the "flirtation" lines into something else. The game still reads them as flirts. I don't care about Leliana falling in love with me, I care about the game assuming that I wanted a relationship with her, but not telling me it was going to do that.

I don't recall how DA:O did that. The only thing that really sealed the deal was having sex with them, and that choice was made very explicit. Just because you weren't explicitly in a relationship with them prior to that doesn't mean they couldn't still get jealous.

The tone is explicit. In the coding. You don't see it, but that doesn't mean it does not exist.

What goes on behind the scenes is irrelevant as long as it doesn't limit or impede on roleplaying.

On the contrary. Words without tone have no meaning at all.

Let me expand on what I said above. Suppose two of your companions are having an argument. You are presented with 4 dialog choices: agree with the first companion, agree with the second companion, try to politely agree with both, or tell them to stop arguing and focus on the task at hand. The first problem here is that there are 4 options, while DA2 allows for 3 tones. But the real issue is that the tone here really doesn't matter. If you tell your companions to stop arguing, it really doesn't matter if you were annoyed when you said it, polite, or - god forbid - sarcastic. What really matters is the substance of the line, which was putting an end to the argument. This is what helps you, the player, as well as the companions see this character as a leader. Here, the spoken line is far more important than the tone. Not knowing the spoken line throws a huge wrench in my roleplaying, and knowing that a character is consistently in a bad mood really gives me no insight into their personality.

[Sidney]

Anomaly- wrote...

Here's my problem with the tone icons: They put the emphasis on tone, rather than the words themselves. This is bad for several reasons. First of all, what matters most is the substance of what someone says. T

Disagree in a CRPG setting. Tone is ALL that matters since what is said is 100% guaranteed to not be what you, the player, wants to say the most you can hope for is that you are able to sound the right "friendly" or "angry" or "diplomatic" mood. When I am listening to someone in game I am thinking, I don't help to help this schlep and then looking for a dialog that coveys that feeling because the overwhelming odds are the dialog won't say what I want to say.

In fact, when you "read" the dialog options in almost any game you are translating what the writers put on the screen into "good/evil", "helpful/unhelpful" whatever because the words aren't yours and the NPC's react to the "tone" of the dialog not the words.

[Anomaly-]

Sidney wrote...

Disagree in a CRPG setting. Tone is ALL that matters since what is said is 100% guaranteed to not be what you, the player, wants to say

There were few times in Origins that I didn't see something pretty close to what I wanted to say.

the most you can hope for is that you are able to sound the right "friendly" or "angry" or "diplomatic" mood.

This, to me, is a pretty poor metric for a person's personality.

In fact, when you "read" the dialog options in almost any game you are translating what the writers put on the screen into "good/evil", "helpful/unhelpful" whatever because the words aren't yours and the NPC's react to the "tone" of the dialog not the words.

In the event that I don't find an option closely resembling what I want to say, I look for the option most closely resembling the intention. Maybe that's the intended purpose of the tone icons, but I find it very jarring to see my character seemingly with a carrot up his or her ass the vast majority of the time. Of course, the voiced protagonist also contributes to that issue.

What say you to the rest of what I said and the example I gave?

[DarkKnightHolmes]

Hopefully not. Being stuck with the only 3 personality is boring.

[Sidney]

Anomaly- wrote...
There were few times in Origins that I didn't see something pretty close to what I wanted to say.

In the event that I don't find an option closely resembling what I want to say, I look for the option most closely resembling the intention. Maybe that's the intended purpose of the tone icons, but I find it very jarring to see my character seemingly with a carrot up his or her ass the vast majority of the time. Of course, the voiced protagonist also contributes to that issue.

What say you to the rest of what I said and the example I gave?

Since different tones aren't applied to the same phrases the purpose of tones is to establish intent. It would be different if you could pick wording and then pick tone to apply to it. There is no way to say "I'll save connor" that doesn't mean I'll save connor - there's no sarcastic way to say it to imply you won't do it (Oh SUUUURE I'll save Connor, right"

The tags are good because they give you more info about what your dialog selection means. Even in a fully text unvoiced option I want the indicators because I might say to Leliana "I like shoes" and read it as "Right you shallow vapid cheerleader I care about fashion" when in reality it is actually delivered based on her reaction as "OMG, I soooo love shoes to, BFF's now right???"

[Anomaly-]

Sidney wrote...
Since different tones aren't applied to the same phrases the purpose of tones is to establish intent. It would be different if you could pick wording and then pick tone to apply to it. There is no way to say "I'll save connor" that doesn't mean I'll save connor - there's no sarcastic way to say it to imply you won't do it (Oh SUUUURE I'll save Connor, right"

The tags are good because they give you more info about what your dialog selection means. Even in a fully text unvoiced option I want the indicators because I might say to Leliana "I like shoes" and read it as "Right you shallow vapid cheerleader I care about fashion" when in reality it is actually delivered based on her reaction as "OMG, I soooo love shoes to, BFF's now right???"

See, I can understand that. Equating tone to intention would be ok, but I really don't like how it works with a voiced protagonist. If the substance is the same regardless of the tone, then the only difference is what mood your character seems to be in. That seems largely pointless to me, and I feel it only takes away from the roleplaying. In that case, I'd rather DA:O's system where it seems like companions either like or dislike you based on the things you say, rather than what mood you happen to be in most often. That makes quite a big difference to me, even if the internal workings are not much different.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Sidney wrote...

Disagree in a CRPG setting. Tone is ALL that matters since what is said is 100% guaranteed to not be what you, the player, wants to say the most you can hope for is that you are able to sound the right "friendly" or "angry" or "diplomatic" mood. When I am listening to someone in game I am thinking, I don't help to help this schlep and then looking for a dialog that coveys that feeling because the overwhelming odds are the dialog won't say what I want to say.

In fact, when you "read" the dialog options in almost any game you are translating what the writers put on the screen into "good/evil", "helpful/unhelpful" whatever because the words aren't yours and the NPC's react to the "tone" of the dialog not the words.

We can't know to what the NPC reacts; we can't read their minds.

Just like in the real world, all you get to control is what you say, but the only way to do that in CRPGs is to select the full line.  Otherwise, you don't know what it will say.

It's not as if, in any situation, there's only one response you deem acceptable.  There are always many different things you could say, and then, when presented with the finite list of options, you choose the one that falls within the group of things that don't break your character.

Without the full text, I'm just guessing in these games.  At no point in DA2 did I feel like I had any meaningful level of control over Hawke's behaviour or personality.

[x12796]

xAmilli0n wrote...

This was one of the things I really liked in DA2. Sure it wasn't perfect, but it greatly added to the player's (at least for me) ability to roleplay. So I would like to see both the tone symbols and identify back in DA:I

I agree, especially since in DA and ME the choice listed on the screen can play out very different than you though it would when your character opens his or her mouth.  There were several times when I chose a selection because it seemed right for the situation and when my Hawke spoke I'm thought "How did the choice I selected turn into that?"

[Lord Issa]

I found the symbols useful, what I disliked was the fact that the if you chose enough of the same dialogue type Hawke started acting like that of his own accord. As long as we aren't all but forced into the same personality throughout I'm fine with it.

[Anomaly-]

x12796 wrote...

xAmilli0n wrote...

This was one of the things I really liked in DA2. Sure it wasn't perfect, but it greatly added to the player's (at least for me) ability to roleplay. So I would like to see both the tone symbols and identify back in DA:I

I agree, especially since in DA and ME the choice listed on the screen can play out very different than you though it would when your character opens his or her mouth.  There were several times when I chose a selection because it seemed right for the situation and when my Hawke spoke I'm thought "How did the choice I selected turn into that?"

How did it add to your ability to roleplay if what you thought you would say was often at odds with what actually was said? Or were you being sarcastic about agreeing?

[ReallyRue]

I can take them or leave them, but I think some people seem to think you pick one and then pick that same one for the rest of the game. One click and you're committed.

What I would like, if they are to return, is multiple flirt options, rather than one. I notice most of the flirt options are humorous, which didn't fit my characters. Or they didn't fit for other reasons, like most of the flirt options with Sebastian.

Whatever the format, more dialogue options would be lovely.

[esper]

ReallyRue wrote...

I can take them or leave them, but I think some people seem to think you pick one and then pick that same one for the rest of the game. One click and you're committed.

What I would like, if they are to return, is multiple flirt options, rather than one. I notice most of the flirt options are humorous, which didn't fit my characters. Or they didn't fit for other reasons, like most of the flirt options with Sebastian.

Whatever the format, more dialogue options would be lovely.

It is a problem that the flirts are generally over the top.

Fitted fine with my friviouls warden, but my prude of a Hawke had a problem. (Luckely Anders started flirting with her, so I took some of the bad one as her not knowing how to return the favour).

Still I would give a lot for being able to role play a shy, a little more subtle, character.

[ReallyRue]

esper wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...

I can take them or leave them, but I think some people seem to think you pick one and then pick that same one for the rest of the game. One click and you're committed.

What I would like, if they are to return, is multiple flirt options, rather than one. I notice most of the flirt options are humorous, which didn't fit my characters. Or they didn't fit for other reasons, like most of the flirt options with Sebastian.

Whatever the format, more dialogue options would be lovely.

It is a problem that the flirts are generally over the top.

Fitted fine with my friviouls warden, but my prude of a Hawke had a problem. (Luckely Anders started flirting with her, so I took some of the bad one as her not knowing how to return the favour).

Still I would give a lot for being able to role play a shy, a little more subtle, character.

Yeah, that's the sort of thing I mean. In DAO, my Warden could exchange dirty talk with Zevran, or be shy and clueless. She could snark at his over-the-top flattery without losing the chance to romance him, or she could be completely mesmerised by his lines. It could be a casual sex thing, or she could declare him her one true love. And there were various options in between. It was similar with Alistair, and I imagine Leliana too, though I can't remember.

There wasn't as much opportunity for that in DA2. Even with Isabela, my Hawke had to initiate the flirting, and she really had to push it it with Merrill, so even though it would have been really cute to have a more reserved Hawke with her, I couldn't really. Any 'ice queen' characters ended up being forever alone. And my pious, prudish Hawke seemed ridiculous telling Sebastian to get his kit off and take her right there in the Chantry.

[esper]

ReallyRue wrote...

esper wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...

I can take them or leave them, but I think some people seem to think you pick one and then pick that same one for the rest of the game. One click and you're committed.

What I would like, if they are to return, is multiple flirt options, rather than one. I notice most of the flirt options are humorous, which didn't fit my characters. Or they didn't fit for other reasons, like most of the flirt options with Sebastian.

Whatever the format, more dialogue options would be lovely.

It is a problem that the flirts are generally over the top.

Fitted fine with my friviouls warden, but my prude of a Hawke had a problem. (Luckely Anders started flirting with her, so I took some of the bad one as her not knowing how to return the favour).

Still I would give a lot for being able to role play a shy, a little more subtle, character.

Yeah, that's the sort of thing I mean. In DAO, my Warden could exchange dirty talk with Zevran, or be shy and clueless. She could snark at his over-the-top flattery without losing the chance to romance him, or she could be completely mesmerised by his lines. It could be a casual sex thing, or she could declare him her one true love. And there were various options in between. It was similar with Alistair, and I imagine Leliana too, though I can't remember.

There wasn't as much opportunity for that in DA2. Even with Isabela, my Hawke had to initiate the flirting, and she really had to push it it with Merrill, so even though it would have been really cute to have a more reserved Hawke with her, I couldn't really. Any 'ice queen' characters ended up being forever alone. And my pious, prudish Hawke seemed ridiculous telling Sebastian to get his kit off and take her right there in the Chantry.

I couldn't be shy with Zev and still trigh the right flags. Somewhere down the line I had to pick something over the top, even if it was just once. But you could react shyly to some of his more outragoues flirts, which was nice.

Alistair was worse. Can't do that romance as an ice queen.


I did manage my ice queen Hawke, but it did need a lot of planning and a carefull selection of flirts that doubled with 'ultra pro mage freedom:devil: and I will protect you' with Anders. I can't imagine doing that with Merrill.

Generally, I would appreciate it if bioware gave us the chance for a more introvert person. Shy, or silent responses that aren't necessary aggressive. Its been a problem in all their games.

[ReallyRue]

esper wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...

esper wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...

I can take them or leave them, but I think some people seem to think you pick one and then pick that same one for the rest of the game. One click and you're committed.

What I would like, if they are to return, is multiple flirt options, rather than one. I notice most of the flirt options are humorous, which didn't fit my characters. Or they didn't fit for other reasons, like most of the flirt options with Sebastian.

Whatever the format, more dialogue options would be lovely.

It is a problem that the flirts are generally over the top.

Fitted fine with my friviouls warden, but my prude of a Hawke had a problem. (Luckely Anders started flirting with her, so I took some of the bad one as her not knowing how to return the favour).

Still I would give a lot for being able to role play a shy, a little more subtle, character.

Yeah, that's the sort of thing I mean. In DAO, my Warden could exchange dirty talk with Zevran, or be shy and clueless. She could snark at his over-the-top flattery without losing the chance to romance him, or she could be completely mesmerised by his lines. It could be a casual sex thing, or she could declare him her one true love. And there were various options in between. It was similar with Alistair, and I imagine Leliana too, though I can't remember.

There wasn't as much opportunity for that in DA2. Even with Isabela, my Hawke had to initiate the flirting, and she really had to push it it with Merrill, so even though it would have been really cute to have a more reserved Hawke with her, I couldn't really. Any 'ice queen' characters ended up being forever alone. And my pious, prudish Hawke seemed ridiculous telling Sebastian to get his kit off and take her right there in the Chantry.

I couldn't be shy with Zev and still trigh the right flags. Somewhere down the line I had to pick something over the top, even if it was just once. But you could react shyly to some of his more outragoues flirts, which was nice.

Alistair was worse. Can't do that romance as an ice queen.


I did manage my ice queen Hawke, but it did need a lot of planning and a carefull selection of flirts that doubled with 'ultra pro mage freedom:devil: and I will protect you' with Anders. I can't imagine doing that with Merrill.

Generally, I would appreciate it if bioware gave us the chance for a more introvert person. Shy, or silent responses that aren't necessary aggressive. Its been a problem in all their games.

I can't remember whether I was able to keep up the shy persona the whole way through the Zev romance, but it wass certainly easier with him hitting on her all the time. She didn't have to do as much of the work, and could respond to flattery with things like "oh really, you think I'm pretty?" without having to be a smart arse.

I never tried romancing Alistair as an ice queen, but I was able to do it with a character who was more prickly and one who was made of sugar.

Over all the romances seem to require planning if you're going to stay in character and romance who you want. It'd be nice for more routes into the romance.

[Kidd]

Fast Jimmy wrote...

I'd take a wager you played as a FemHawke.

Indeed I did =) Don't think I've ever tried an aggressive response with ManHawke (never got very far with one) so I sadly can't compare. I'll take your word for it though ^^