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Combo Mechanics and Damage


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#1
Cyonan

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Been messing around with testing combos, and even though there's a lot more information out there on it, I don't think anyone has posted a compilation of everything yet.

Combo Damage Formula

The formula for calculation combo damage is:

(((max_damage - min_damage) * (combined_power_ranks / 12)) + min_damage) * difficulty_modifier * combo_modifier * defence_modifier = final_damage

min_damage for all combo types is 100
max_damage for all combo types is 250

combined_power_ranks is the rank of both the detonator and the primer added together. Rank 5 Warp + Rank 4 Throw would mean your combined_power_ranks is 9.

Ammo powers count as rank 0, regardless of which rank of ammo power you have.

difficulty_modifier: Each difficulty is 1.5x higher damage than the last one. The easy numbers for this are:

Bronze: 1.5x
Silver: 2.25x
Gold: 3.375x
Platinum: 5.0625x

combo_modifier is anything that says it increases combo damage in your evolutions, multiplying them all together. If you have only 1 ability with a 50% modifier to it then your modifier will be 1.5x, or if you have 2 50% modifiers then it will be 2.25x.

defence_modifier is specific to each combo type, which are:

Biotic Explosion: 2x vs Armour/Barriers, 1x vs Shields/Health
Cryo Explosion: 1x vs Everything
Fire Explosion: 2x vs Armour, 1x vs Shields/Barriers/Health
Tech Burst: 2x vs Shields, 1x vs Barriers/Health/Armour

Note: The N7 Paladin's Snap Freeze has a bug where the combo_modifier is always 2x, even if you don't have the 100% Combo Damage evolution(and picking it up will not add more damage).

The Collector Bug

Rather well known, but the Collector's combo damage is bugged. They use a difficulty_modifier that is one difficulty lower than what you are playing on. For Bronze it's simply 1x.

Debuffs can Increase Combo Damage on the debuffed target

Any evolution that says "increases damage taken by the enemy by X%" will also increase your combo damage on only the target that it is applied to. If you detonate a combo with an ability that has this, then the damage increases will still be applied.

Debuffs will multiply the final damage number of the combo.

Additional Effects

Cryo Explosions will freeze nearby unprotected targets. This does not prime for additional Cryo Explosions.

Fire Explosions do additional damage over time that uses the same damage formula. The min and max damages are 12.5 - 31.25.

Additional Notes

For Cryo Explosions, the target must be fully frozen. Even if you try to detonate while they're in the process of freezing, you won't get a Cryo Explosion. This means that you can't do them on targets with armour, shields, or barriers. The only exception to this is Snap Freeze, which will prime even chilled targets for a Cryo Explosion. You don't need to wait for the full freezing effect and you can prime any target with it.

Incendiary Rounds cannot prime shields or barriers.

When detonating with an AoE ability, most abilities will only cause 1 combo, but will unprime as many targets as it hits.

The exceptions are abilities with multiple pulses, such as Chain Overload, Shockwave, Smash. or Slashes.

For Grenades like Cluster Grenade each fragment can cause 1 combo, however if 1 fragment hits multiple primed targets, it will unprime all of them.

Modifié par Cyonan, 18 janvier 2013 - 08:14 .


#2
IllusiveManJr

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Nice collection of info. Thanks.

#3
Titus Thongger

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you are my hero

#4
Amusingthree93

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What do you mean by not getting cryo explosion while in the process of freezing? Does it mean that I have to wait for the enemies to become fully white before I should incinerate them?

#5
Cyonan

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Amusingthree93 wrote...

What do you mean by not getting cryo explosion while in the process of freezing? Does it mean that I have to wait for the enemies to become fully white before I should incinerate them?


Yep.

If they're half way to being frozen, you wont get the Cryo Explosion.

The only exception is Snap Freeze which instantly primes everything it hits.

#6
Bryan Johnson

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Amusingthree93 wrote...

What do you mean by not getting cryo explosion while in the process of freezing? Does it mean that I have to wait for the enemies to become fully white before I should incinerate them?


Short answer is yes

It's relating to Cyro Blast/Ammo you have to wait for them to freeze completely otherwise you wont get a cryo explosion

#7
Amusingthree93

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Bryan Johnson wrote...

Amusingthree93 wrote...

What do you mean by not getting cryo explosion while in the process of freezing? Does it mean that I have to wait for the enemies to become fully white before I should incinerate them?


Short answer is yes

It's relating to Cyro Blast/Ammo you have to wait for them to freeze completely otherwise you wont get a cryo explosion

Well, that explains a great deal. Thanks!

#8
LegionofRannoch

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Titus Thongger wrote...

you are my hero


ahem, Cyonan is my hero. Posted Image

#9
RB26D3TT

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Amusingthree93 wrote...

What do you mean by not getting cryo explosion while in the process of freezing? Does it mean that I have to wait for the enemies to become fully white before I should incinerate them?

With cryo blast/cryo ammo you can only set explosions on health and yes, you have yo waint until the target is solid frozen (usually they fall to the ground once completely frozen).

Modifié par RB26D3TT, 18 janvier 2013 - 07:25 .


#10
stysiaq

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Cyonan is simply the one of the few BSNers the boards would be worse without.

#11
Veovim

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You're sure the formula is

((max_damage - min_damage) * (combined_power_ranks / 12)) + min_damage

rather than

((max_damage - min_damage) * ((combined_power_ranks - 2) / 10)) + min_damage

combined_power_ranks will always be at least 2, so if the first version is correct, combos will never do min_damage



Edit: I missed the note about ammo powers being rank 0, so I guess either using

((max_damage - min_damage) * ((combined_power_ranks - 1) / 11)) + min_damage

or upping ammo powers to rank 1 could work

Modifié par Veovim, 18 janvier 2013 - 07:37 .


#12
Guest_Flaming Snake_*

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Cyonan wrote...

Amusingthree93 wrote...

What do you mean by not getting cryo explosion while in the process of freezing? Does it mean that I have to wait for the enemies to become fully white before I should incinerate them?


Yep.

If they're half way to being frozen, you wont get the Cryo Explosion.

The only exception is Snap Freeze which instantly primes everything it hits.


Well I never realised that. That should actually help me a bit with the QFE... :D

#13
TehPwnzor52

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Cyonan wrote...

defence_modifier is specific to each combo type, which are:

Biotic Explosion: 2x vs Armour/Barriers, 1x vs Shields/Health
Cryo Explosion: 1x vs Everything
Fire Explosion: 2x vs Armour, 1x vs Shields/Barriers/Health
Tech Burst: 2x vs Shields, 1x vs Barriers/Health/Armour



Wait, so according to this cryo explosions are the weakest overall, yet they're the ones that can only be primed on unprotected targets? That doesn't make sense :pinched:

#14
Deerber

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Thank you Cyonan, as always. Couple of questions/comments, if you will :)

Cyonan wrote...

Ammo powers count as rank 0, regardless of which rank of ammo power you have.


Corlist stated here that ammo powers count as 1. Which one is true? Was it changed in Retaliation with the tech combos change?

Cyonan wrote...

difficulty_modifier: Each difficulty is 1.5x higher damage than the last one. The easy numbers for this are:

Bronze: 1.5x
Silver: 2.25x
Gold: 3.375x
Platinum: 5.0625x


Cyonan states, in the same thread, that the Platinum one is 4.3ish. Yours is Gold*1.5 as you said it should be. Was Corlist wrong then? If so, are the numbers in his spreedsheet wrong? ( I can take a look at this myself, if you say he was wrong :) )

Cyonan wrote...

combo_modifier is anything that says it increases combo damage in your evolutions, adding them all together. If you have only 1 ability with a 50% modifier to it then your modifier will be 1.5x, or if you have 2 50% modifiers then it will be 2x.


Not really a question. Since Corlist stated, in his thread, that they are multiplicative I always assumed that they were multiplicative among each other as well. Silly me. So I've been informing other people wrong, I'm sorry for that. And thanks for making that clear ;)

Cyonan wrote...

Debuffs Increase Combo Damage

Any evolution that says "increases damage taken by the enemy by X%" will also increase your combo damage. If you detonate a combo with an ability that has this, then the damage increases will still be applied.

Debuffs will multiply the final damage number of the combo.


When you say this, you don't mean that it will actually increase the damage of the BE, but rather that the debuffed enemy (and only him) takes more damage from the BE, right?

Cyonan wrote...

Incendiary Rounds cannot prime shields or barriers.


Thanks for finally putting out solid information on this.

Cyonan wrote...

When detonating with an AoE ability, you can detonate as many combos as your ability hits primed targets. Overload speced into both Chains can detonate 3 combos in a single cast.


So, if I'm not wrong, the maximum number of enemies detonated in one cast should be 3, right? Cause I don't think there are powers which affect more than 3 enemies at a time, are there?

#15
Guest_Heri_*

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Great topic, and there's something I've been wondering about but don't know enough about the math to work through it: I play a Paladin a lot, which obviously gives the opportunity to prime and detonate every kind of tech explosion there is. But what I'm wondering is, how do the tech explosions compare DPS-wise to spamming a single ability?

For example, against armor - does it make more sense to simply spam Incinerate, or hit a target with Incinerate and then Snap Freeze (in melee range) or Energy Drain (at range) to generate a fire explosion? Alternatively you could say the same thing about draining shields - better to spam ED or alternate ED with a detonator to generate tech bursts?

#16
drfeelgood2002

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Great info. Thanks for posting this!

#17
peddroelm

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Deerber wrote...


Not really a question. Since Corlist stated, in his thread, that they are multiplicative I always assumed that they were multiplicative among each other as well. Silly me. So I've been informing other people wrong, I'm sorry for that. And thanks for making that clear ;)


they ARE multiplicative among each other as well ...


Deerber wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Debuffs Increase Combo Damage

Any evolution that says "increases damage taken by the enemy by X%" will also increase your combo damage. If you detonate a combo with an ability that has this, then the damage increases will still be applied.

Debuffs will multiply the final damage number of the combo.


When you say this, you don't mean that it will actually increase the damage of the BE, but rather that the debuffed enemy (and only him) takes more damage from the BE, right?


yes debuffs don't increase combo damage - they cause afflicted targets to suffer additional damage from powers (including combos) ..


Deerber wrote...



Cyonan wrote...

Ammo powers count as rank 0, regardless of which rank of ammo power you have.


Corlist stated here that ammo powers count as 1. Which one is true? Was it changed in Retaliation with the tech combos change?



nothing changed .. They have written the same formula a bit differently (Cyonan added a +1 constant and dropped the ammo powers to rank 0)... Personally I prefer corlist's version since I had some suggestions about the order of operations that in my opinion made it easier to read//fallow ... But they are mathematically the same formula ..

EDIT
As corlist gracefully pointed out to me in a chat session (corlist has quit posting on bsn for the time being) apparently they aren't exactly the same so Cyonan's formula in the OP while similar is not entirely correct ... I do trust in corlist's version of the combo formula as it was confirmed numerous times during my testing sessions.
EDIT

Modifié par peddroelmz, 17 février 2013 - 05:40 .


#18
Deerber

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Heri wrote...

Great topic, and there's something I've been wondering about but don't know enough about the math to work through it: I play a Paladin a lot, which obviously gives the opportunity to prime and detonate every kind of tech explosion there is. But what I'm wondering is, how do the tech explosions compare DPS-wise to spamming a single ability?

For example, against armor - does it make more sense to simply spam Incinerate, or hit a target with Incinerate and then Snap Freeze (in melee range) or Energy Drain (at range) to generate a fire explosion? Alternatively you could say the same thing about draining shields - better to spam ED or alternate ED with a detonator to generate tech bursts?


It's not that when you hit with the detonator its effects do not apply, eh...

#19
me0120

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Deerber wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

When detonating with an AoE ability, you can detonate as many combos as your ability hits primed targets. Overload speced into both Chains can detonate 3 combos in a single cast.


So, if I'm not wrong, the maximum number of enemies detonated in one cast should be 3, right? Cause I don't think there are powers which affect more than 3 enemies at a time, are there?


I'll leave the technical stuff to them, but Reave and Incinerate are two examples of detonators that can hit unlimited targets in their range.

#20
Deerber

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me0120 wrote...

Deerber wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

When detonating with an AoE ability, you can detonate as many combos as your ability hits primed targets. Overload speced into both Chains can detonate 3 combos in a single cast.


So, if I'm not wrong, the maximum number of enemies detonated in one cast should be 3, right? Cause I don't think there are powers which affect more than 3 enemies at a time, are there?


I'll leave the technical stuff to them, but Reave and Incinerate are two examples of detonators that can hit unlimited targets in their range.


You're telling me that incinerate/flamer + reave can, in theory, detonate as much as 8 explosions? :bandit:

Modifié par Deerber, 18 janvier 2013 - 08:08 .


#21
Deerber

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peddroelmz wrote...

they ARE multiplicative among each other as well ...


Eh... Me is confused now.

peddroelmz wrote...

yes debuffs don't increase combo damage - they cause afflicted targets to suffer additional damage from powers (including combos) ..


Thank you.

peddroelmz wrote...

nothing changed .. They have written the same formula a bit differently (Cyonan added a +1 constant and dropped the ammo powers to rank 0)... Personally I prefer corlist's version since I had some suggestions about the order of operations that in my opinion made it easier to read//fallow ... But they are mathematically the same formula ..


Shame on me, I didn't notice the other changes in the formula. Thanks!

#22
peddroelm

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Deerber wrote...

You're telling me that incinerate/flamer + reave can, in theory, detonate as high as 8 explosions? :bandit:


Reave will at most detonate 1 combo per cast ...You need powers that can hit multiple times per cast to detonate multiple combos (chain overload , Shockwave, cluster grenades ,  smash,  half blast nova (each cast hiting differently primed targets) )

1 power detonating a combo will deprime all other targets it hits ...  

Modifié par peddroelmz, 18 janvier 2013 - 08:10 .


#23
N7 Legend Titi

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Now i know....nice :)

#24
MgO

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does the debuff from warp(power) affect combo damage, even when warp is being used to detonate said combo?

Modifié par MgO, 18 janvier 2013 - 08:13 .


#25
peddroelm

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Also I think you should link corlist's 4 months old thread in the OP .. Its unfair to present this stuff as new info ..

MgO wrote...
does the debuff from warp(power) affect combo damage, even when warp is being used to detonate said combo?

Debuffs don't increase combo damage - they cause afflicted targets to suffer additional damage from powers (including combos) .  

Modifié par peddroelmz, 18 janvier 2013 - 08:16 .