71 réponses à ce sujet

[me0120]

peddroelmz wrote...

Deerber wrote...

You're telling me that incinerate/flamer + reave can, in theory, detonate as high as 8 explosions? 

Reave will at most detonate 1 combo per cast ...You need powers that can hit multiple times per cast to detonate multiple combos (chain overload , Shockwave, cluster grenades ,  smash,  half blast nova (each cast hiting differently primed targets) )

1 power detonating a combo will deprime all other targets it hits ...  

That's a juicy bit of information. Shockwave could potentially detonate once for every time it "surges"?

[Deerber]

peddroelmz wrote...

Deerber wrote...

You're telling me that incinerate/flamer + reave can, in theory, detonate as high as 8 explosions? 

Reave will at most detonate 1 combo per cast ...You need powers that can hit multiple times per cast to detonate multiple combos (chain overload , Shockwave, cluster grenades ,  smash,  half blast nova (each cast hiting differently primed targets) )

1 power detonating a combo will deprime all other targets it hits ...  

Ah ok, thanks. That seemed strange.

me0120 wrote...

peddroelmz wrote...

Deerber wrote...

You're telling me that incinerate/flamer + reave can, in theory, detonate as high as 8 explosions? 

Reave will at most detonate 1 combo per cast ...You need powers that can hit multiple times per cast to detonate multiple combos (chain overload , Shockwave, cluster grenades ,  smash,  half blast nova (each cast hiting differently primed targets) )

1 power detonating a combo will deprime all other targets it hits ...  

That's a juicy bit of information. Shockwave could potentially detonate once for every time it "surges"?

I was thinking about that as well 


Edit: nope, shockwave hits as much as 2 targets. Shame 

Modifié par Deerber, 18 janvier 2013 - 08:16 .

[MgO]

peddroelmz wrote...

Also I think you should link corlist's 4 months old thread in the OP .. Its unfair to present this stuff as new info ..

MgO wrote...
does the debuff from warp(power) affect combo damage, even when warp is being used to detonate said combo?

Debuffs don't increase combo damage - they cause afflicted targets to suffer additional damage from powers (including combos) .  

that's what i meant (the single debuffed enemy in question). but what im asking is if I hit a primed brute with warp, does the debuff from warp apply first followed by the combo explosion?

[me0120]

Deerber wrote...
I was thinking about that as well 


Edit: nope, shockwave hits as much as 2 targets. Shame 

Foiled again!

[Deerber]

me0120 wrote...

Deerber wrote...
I was thinking about that as well 


Edit: nope, shockwave hits as much as 2 targets. Shame 

Foiled again!

I was already thinking of a way to line up 8 primed targets... You know, Dagger... 

[peddroelm]

MgO wrote...

peddroelmz wrote...

Also I think you should link corlist's 4 months old thread in the OP .. Its unfair to present this stuff as new info ..

MgO wrote...
does the debuff from warp(power) affect combo damage, even when warp is being used to detonate said combo?

Debuffs don't increase combo damage - they cause afflicted targets to suffer additional damage from powers (including combos) .  

that's what i meant (the single debuffed enemy in question). but what im asking is if I hit a primed brute with warp, does the debuff from warp apply first followed by the combo explosion?

In order 

primer hits (inflicts damage potentially boosted by any/all debuffs already on target)  THEN debuffs (it its also a debuffer)

[thats why warp impact component is not affected by it debuff but its fallowing dot component is ..]

detonator hits (inflicts damage potentially boosted by any/all debuffs already on target - ex from primer) THEN debuffs (if its also a debuffer )

combo explosion happens  (damage inflicted to comboed target by combo explosion boosted by any//all debuffs on target including the ones from primer//detonator )


Both versions of the combo damage formula (corlist's and cyonan's) lack the "headshot" multiplier term where debuff effects on target are summed and multiply the damage inflicted  *(1+ sum of debuffs on affected target)  ...

Modifié par peddroelmz, 18 janvier 2013 - 08:41 .

[Tybo]

Hey look, welcome to four months ago!

The exact same info was shown here

Modifié par tyhw, 18 janvier 2013 - 08:27 .

[Poison_Berrie]

Bryan Johnson wrote...

Amusingthree93 wrote...

What do you mean by not getting cryo explosion while in the process of freezing? Does it mean that I have to wait for the enemies to become fully white before I should incinerate them?

Short answer is yes

It's relating to Cyro Blast/Ammo you have to wait for them to freeze completely otherwise you wont get a cryo explosion

Is this intentional? Because of all explosions Cryo seems to be the weakest of the combos and also the most restricted.

[MgO]

peddroelmz wrote...

MgO wrote...

peddroelmz wrote...

Also I think you should link corlist's 4 months old thread in the OP .. Its unfair to present this stuff as new info ..

MgO wrote...
does the debuff from warp(power) affect combo damage, even when warp is being used to detonate said combo?

Debuffs don't increase combo damage - they cause afflicted targets to suffer additional damage from powers (including combos) .  

that's what i meant (the single debuffed enemy in question). but what im asking is if I hit a primed brute with warp, does the debuff from warp apply first followed by the combo explosion?

In order 

primer hits (inflicts damage potentially boosted by any/all debuffs already on target)  THEN debuffs (it its also a debuffer)

detonator hits (inflicts damage potentially boosted by any/all debuffs already on target - ex from primer) THEN debuffs (if its also a debuffer )

combo explosion happens  (damage inflicted to comboed target by combo explosion boosted by any//all debuffs on target including the ones from primer//detonator )


Both versions of the combo damage formula (corlist's and cyonan's) lack the "headshot" multiplier term (the place where the debuffs are summed to 1) and multiply damage inflicted  ...

thank you. i wasnt sure whether warp (and its associated effects) applied before or after the combo explosion

[me0120]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

Bryan Johnson wrote...

Amusingthree93 wrote...

What do you mean by not getting cryo explosion while in the process of freezing? Does it mean that I have to wait for the enemies to become fully white before I should incinerate them?

Short answer is yes

It's relating to Cyro Blast/Ammo you have to wait for them to freeze completely otherwise you wont get a cryo explosion

Is this intentional? Because of all explosions Cryo seems to be the weakest of the combos and also the most restricted.

I can accept the small combo damage due to the reasons that Cryo Explosions come from either a bugged power that does massive damage, or one of the best debuffs in the game. What I don't like (Paladin excluded) is that it will interfere with other explosions/bursts but still won't detonate on protected targets, meaning that you waste that ability to cause explosion/burst damage by applying Cryo.

[Deerber]

peddroelmz wrote...

MgO wrote...

peddroelmz wrote...

Also I think you should link corlist's 4 months old thread in the OP .. Its unfair to present this stuff as new info ..

MgO wrote...
does the debuff from warp(power) affect combo damage, even when warp is being used to detonate said combo?

Debuffs don't increase combo damage - they cause afflicted targets to suffer additional damage from powers (including combos) .  

that's what i meant (the single debuffed enemy in question). but what im asking is if I hit a primed brute with warp, does the debuff from warp apply first followed by the combo explosion?

In order 

primer hits (inflicts damage potentially boosted by any/all debuffs already on target)  THEN debuffs (it its also a debuffer)

[thats why warp impact component is not affected by it debuff but its fallowing dot component is ..]

detonator hits (inflicts damage potentially boosted by any/all debuffs already on target - ex from primer) THEN debuffs (if its also a debuffer )

combo explosion happens  (damage inflicted to comboed target by combo explosion boosted by any//all debuffs on target including the ones from primer//detonator )


Both versions of the combo damage formula (corlist's and cyonan's) lack the "headshot" multiplier term *(1+ sum of debuffs on affected target) and multiply damage inflicted  ...

Thank you for the info.

Regarding the "headshot multiplier", I honestly prefer it this way, as the debuffs do not actually increase the damage of the BE, they rather increase the damage taken by the debuffed target only. So I honestly think the formula is nice as it is in these two posts 

[peddroelm]

Deerber wrote...

peddroelmz wrote...


Both versions of the combo damage formula (corlist's and cyonan's) lack the "headshot" multiplier term where the debuff effects on target are summed and multiply the total damage inflicted  *(1+ sum of debuffs on affected target)  ...

Thank you for the info.

Regarding the "headshot multiplier", I honestly prefer it this way, as the debuffs do not actually increase the damage of the BE, they rather increase the damage taken by the debuffed target only. So I honestly think the formula is nice as it is in these two posts 

If its properly written (specify its about the debuffs affecting the target hit by the combo ) it would be correct , complete , clear and would cut down on the endless "what about the debuffs ?" questions ..Once you put in the vsdefence multiplier you also need to add the "headshot" multiplier (debuffs sum) ...

Modifié par peddroelmz, 18 janvier 2013 - 08:51 .

[BACON4BREAKFAST]

Thanks for presenting this information in a clear, understandable fashion. I vaguely understood some of these concepts but this helped a lot, thanks.

One of the few users that makes helpful threads.

[peddroelm]

Heri wrote...

 So my question is, on gold, will a fully-buffed Incinerate be able to do 1772.25 points of damage?..

from one of my threads .. .

QME -

TS *1.325 Power Damage
Incinerate 330 * (1+0.2+0.3) With extra DOT and vs Armor upgrades
Arc Grenade 400 * (1+0.2+0.3) With extra DOT and vs Shield& Barriers upgrades
Passive 45% PD
No other consumables

Incinerate damage vs armor (TS off)
330 * 1.5 * (1+0.2+0.3+0.45)*1.5 + 330 * 1.5 * (1+0.2+0.3+0.45)*0.5*1.5 (extra DOT) = 2171.8125

Incinerate damage vs armor (TS on)
330 * 1.5 * (1+0.2+0.3+0.45)*1.325 * 1.5 + 330 * 1.5 * (1+0.2+0.3+0.45)* 1.325 * 0.5 *1.5 (extra DOT) = 2877.6515



This is with the bonus vs armor evolution ... (*1.5)
With freeze combo vs frozen armored targets damage would be even higher (*2 instead of *1.5 )...

[xabkish]

I think you should mention mention corlist tests here as others already suggested. At least because they contain more accurate and complete info on how damage is calculated.

Anyway, a little more info of info on Shockwave would be nice. E.g. each surge is treated as a separate power? Meaning every surge detonates one marker and deprimes everything else it hits? So in order to detonate another combo with the same Shockwave one of the next surges has to hit another primed enemy that wasn't affected by any of the previous surges, right?

Modifié par xabkish, 18 janvier 2013 - 02:09 .

[AaronEh]

tyhw wrote...

Hey look, welcome to four months ago!

The exact same info was shown here

He even has a nice spreadsheet with commom combo damages listed for reference.

[unclemonster]

Thank you as always Cyonan!!!

[Admiral Dreck]

Cyonan wrote...

Amusingthree93 wrote...

What do you mean by not getting cryo explosion while in the process of freezing? Does it mean that I have to wait for the enemies to become fully white before I should incinerate them?

Yep.

If they're half way to being frozen, you wont get the Cryo Explosion.

The only exception is Snap Freeze which instantly primes everything it hits.

 I believe the term is "Chilled."

[Deerber]

Heri wrote...

Deerber wrote...

Heri wrote...

Great topic, and there's something I've been wondering about but don't know enough about the math to work through it: I play a Paladin a lot, which obviously gives the opportunity to prime and detonate every kind of tech explosion there is. But what I'm wondering is, how do the tech explosions compare DPS-wise to spamming a single ability?

For example, against armor - does it make more sense to simply spam Incinerate, or hit a target with Incinerate and then Snap Freeze (in melee range) or Energy Drain (at range) to generate a fire explosion? Alternatively you could say the same thing about draining shields - better to spam ED or alternate ED with a detonator to generate tech bursts?

It's not that when you hit with the detonator its effects do not apply, eh...

Meaning what, exactly? Even if the detonator's effects apply, that doesn't necessarily mean damage output will be lower, does it? Look at two possible rotations for a heavily-armored target (let's say a Scion):

Option 1: Incinerate spam
Option 2: Incinerate -> ED (fire explosion) -> Incinerate (tech burst) -> ED (fire explosion) -> etc.

So in the second option, you're replacing every other Incinerate with an ED. Even if the ED and tech bursts did no damage to the armor, you can still come out on top if the damage of the fire explosion is greater than the damage of a single Incinerate. That's the question I'm asking.

According to a spreadsheet posted in another thread, a 6+6 fire explosion on gold causes 1687.5 damage against armor and a 6+6 tech burst causes 843.75 against the same. So my question is, on gold, will a fully-buffed Incinerate be able to do 1772.25 points of damage? Because if it can't, then it would seem to me (absent some other factor I'm not considering) that causing the FEs/TBs is preferable to just spamming Incinerate. Based on Incinerate's damage numbers I don't think it can reach that kind of output, but since I'm nowhere near an expert on this and haven't played the game for a while, I figured I'd come ask so that I know which way to go.

Incinerate -> ED on an armored, non synthetic target does not result in an explosion.

You may think I'm nitpicking, but actually it's all there. If you have two different powers that do prime and detonate against that kind of protection, then they will, necessarily, be both effective against that kind of protection. Maybe one of them will be a little better, but generally not that much.

That, coupled with the fact that the detonator does apply its damage as well as that of the explosion, make it pretty clear that going for explosions is generally much better than spamming the same power all over again. At least on higher difficulties (gold). Because the difference in damage output between the two powers will rarely be enough to make up for the absence of an explosion.

[Deerber]

Admiral Dreck wrote...

Cyonan wrote...

Amusingthree93 wrote...

What do you mean by not getting cryo explosion while in the process of freezing? Does it mean that I have to wait for the enemies to become fully white before I should incinerate them?

Yep.

If they're half way to being frozen, you wont get the Cryo Explosion.

The only exception is Snap Freeze which instantly primes everything it hits.

 I believe the term is "Chilled."

No. Chilled refers to a target with some kind of protection, and that can not be frozen because of that.

Cyonan is refering to health-based targets which are being frozen, but still have not completed the process.

Modifié par Deerber, 18 janvier 2013 - 03:13 .

[lightswitch]

Does the rank six 'Tech Vulnerability' on Sabotage count as a combo modifier?

[peddroelm]

lightswitch wrote...

Does the rank six 'Tech Vulnerability' on Sabotage count as a combo modifier?

will only work for the tech combos (not BEs) and i'm pretty sure (99.99%) its a debuff not a combo modifier (will add with other debuff effects)...
 

[jcamdenlane]

If cyonan derived the formula's independently, there's no need to reference back to corlist's stuff. It's more elegantly presented here. Corlist posts too much data dump. Great that it's sourced, but don't want to wade through it for every nugget. The revelation of the protection multipliers by the devs made the formulas apparent at that point, anyway.