Great stuff.
Combo Mechanics and Damage
Débuté par
Cyonan
, janv. 18 2013 07:10
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#52
Posté 19 janvier 2013 - 08:51
Derp88
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Very useful info! Thank you.
I never realised all of the Paladin's combos are 2x! That's insane! I knew he was powerful, but didn't know the reason.
I never realised all of the Paladin's combos are 2x! That's insane! I knew he was powerful, but didn't know the reason.
Modifié par Derp88, 20 janvier 2013 - 02:22 .
#53
Guest_Heri_*
Posté 19 janvier 2013 - 09:06
Guest_Heri_*
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Deerber wrote...
Heri wrote...
Deerber wrote...
Heri wrote...
Great topic, and there's something I've been wondering about but don't know enough about the math to work through it: I play a Paladin a lot, which obviously gives the opportunity to prime and detonate every kind of tech explosion there is. But what I'm wondering is, how do the tech explosions compare DPS-wise to spamming a single ability?
For example, against armor - does it make more sense to simply spam Incinerate, or hit a target with Incinerate and then Snap Freeze (in melee range) or Energy Drain (at range) to generate a fire explosion? Alternatively you could say the same thing about draining shields - better to spam ED or alternate ED with a detonator to generate tech bursts?
It's not that when you hit with the detonator its effects do not apply, eh...
Meaning what, exactly? Even if the detonator's effects apply, that doesn't necessarily mean damage output will be lower, does it? Look at two possible rotations for a heavily-armored target (let's say a Scion):
Option 1: Incinerate spam
Option 2: Incinerate -> ED (fire explosion) -> Incinerate (tech burst) -> ED (fire explosion) -> etc.
So in the second option, you're replacing every other Incinerate with an ED. Even if the ED and tech bursts did no damage to the armor, you can still come out on top if the damage of the fire explosion is greater than the damage of a single Incinerate. That's the question I'm asking.
According to a spreadsheet posted in another thread, a 6+6 fire explosion on gold causes 1687.5 damage against armor and a 6+6 tech burst causes 843.75 against the same. So my question is, on gold, will a fully-buffed Incinerate be able to do 1772.25 points of damage? Because if it can't, then it would seem to me (absent some other factor I'm not considering) that causing the FEs/TBs is preferable to just spamming Incinerate. Based on Incinerate's damage numbers I don't think it can reach that kind of output, but since I'm nowhere near an expert on this and haven't played the game for a while, I figured I'd come ask so that I know which way to go.
Incinerate -> ED on an armored, non synthetic target does not result in an explosion.
You may think I'm nitpicking, but actually it's all there. If you have two different powers that do prime and detonate against that kind of protection, then they will, necessarily, be both effective against that kind of protection. Maybe one of them will be a little better, but generally not that much.
That, coupled with the fact that the detonator does apply its damage as well as that of the explosion, make it pretty clear that going for explosions is generally much better than spamming the same power all over again. At least on higher difficulties (gold). Because the difference in damage output between the two powers will rarely be enough to make up for the absence of an explosion.
I use ED all the time on Incinerated targets to trigger FEs, so unless there's some weird game bug and I'm seeing the visual effect of the explosion without it actually happening, it does...
#54
Posté 19 janvier 2013 - 09:15
Deerber
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Heri wrote...
I use ED all the time on Incinerated targets to trigger FEs, so unless there's some weird game bug and I'm seeing the visual effect of the explosion without it actually happening, it does...
I'm sorry, it does not. Unless it's synthetic armor - Geths and Atlases. You need to drain something with ED for it to detonate. It won't even detonate on shield/health targets who happen to have lost their shields. You were probably confused by something else
#55
Posté 19 janvier 2013 - 09:30
DrasticKirbus
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Cyonan, you are by far my favorite BSN poster
#56
Posté 19 janvier 2013 - 10:29
Adhin
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Yeah why I don't like energy drain on my paladin, to situational to be a benefit for explosion sakes. Better off lobbing incinerate - more damage too. Also I could of sworn you can get cryo explosions on armored targets you just have to wait for the full chilled time to take effect. Which is the same time it takes to completely freeze a target, it's just not visually noticable and fades off with out being, again, to noticable.
Snapfreeze is simply easier as it auto-chills and freezes with 0 work up time. It's not so much that its the only power that'll prime armor, so much as it just doesn't have a time to freeze/chill like Cryo Blast and Ammo do.
Ultimately that time to freeze/chill (which is like 2-3 seconds?) takes to damn long to be reliable for consistent Cryo-Explosions on demand as your liable to screw it up unless you literally see a target turned into an ice sculpture.
Fire Explosions the only universally reliable one people can notice. Tech Explosion is also but often doesn't last as long (depending on the source) and you can barely even see the effect. And it make no noise. Vast majority of the time no one has any idea a tech explosion just occured and its just lead to a lot of confusion which is kinda sad. Wish they'd fix that some day.
Snapfreeze is simply easier as it auto-chills and freezes with 0 work up time. It's not so much that its the only power that'll prime armor, so much as it just doesn't have a time to freeze/chill like Cryo Blast and Ammo do.
Ultimately that time to freeze/chill (which is like 2-3 seconds?) takes to damn long to be reliable for consistent Cryo-Explosions on demand as your liable to screw it up unless you literally see a target turned into an ice sculpture.
Fire Explosions the only universally reliable one people can notice. Tech Explosion is also but often doesn't last as long (depending on the source) and you can barely even see the effect. And it make no noise. Vast majority of the time no one has any idea a tech explosion just occured and its just lead to a lot of confusion which is kinda sad. Wish they'd fix that some day.
#57
Posté 19 janvier 2013 - 10:40
MIA115
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Thank you so much for doing all of this! It has been helping me become a better player since I started in the demo days. Really, please keep it up!
#58
Posté 20 janvier 2013 - 02:22
Derp88
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Quick question.
Do power passives factor into the power of explosions at all? Or is it just the evo ranks?
Do power passives factor into the power of explosions at all? Or is it just the evo ranks?
#59
Posté 20 janvier 2013 - 02:28
Beerfish
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That is a pretty big revelation for the fully frozen bit. My FQE with a low cooldown always casts cryo and then incinerate immedately there after. Looks like I need to be more patient.
#60
Posté 20 janvier 2013 - 02:35
Deerber
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Derp88 wrote...
Quick question.
Do power passives factor into the power of explosions at all? Or is it just the evo ranks?
Not at all. It seems to me the formula is pretty clear, ain't it?
#61
Posté 23 janvier 2013 - 11:11
ROBOTICSUPERMAN
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Cyonan wrote...
Ammo powers count as rank 0, regardless of which rank of ammo power you have.
what rank do grenades count as? im guessing 0 aswell?
#62
Posté 24 janvier 2013 - 01:17
lightswitch
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ROBOTICSUPERMAN wrote...
Cyonan wrote...
Ammo powers count as rank 0, regardless of which rank of ammo power you have.
what rank do grenades count as? im guessing 0 aswell?
Why would they? I assume they'll count as whatever rank you have them specced to.
#63
Posté 24 janvier 2013 - 11:02
ROBOTICSUPERMAN
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lightswitch wrote...
ROBOTICSUPERMAN wrote...
Cyonan wrote...
Ammo powers count as rank 0, regardless of which rank of ammo power you have.
what rank do grenades count as? im guessing 0 aswell?
Why would they? I assume they'll count as whatever rank you have them specced to.
well my vorcha sentinal had flamer 6, cluster 6 but the explosions seem really small in comparison to my vorcha soldier with flamer 6 carnage 6
#64
Posté 24 janvier 2013 - 11:13
Cyonan
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ROBOTICSUPERMAN wrote...
well my vorcha sentinal had flamer 6, cluster 6 but the explosions seem really small in comparison to my vorcha soldier with flamer 6 carnage 6
Grenades count as whatever the power rank is.
Even if they didn't, you should see them be stronger assuming you're hitting the target with all the fragments, due to how insanely hard Cluster Grenade hits by itself.
#65
Posté 24 janvier 2013 - 11:19
ROBOTICSUPERMAN
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Cyonan wrote...
ROBOTICSUPERMAN wrote...
well my vorcha sentinal had flamer 6, cluster 6 but the explosions seem really small in comparison to my vorcha soldier with flamer 6 carnage 6
Grenades count as whatever the power rank is.
Even if they didn't, you should see them be stronger assuming you're hitting the target with all the fragments, due to how insanely hard Cluster Grenade hits by itself.
the grenades deffinatly do the damage
but the explosions seem allot smaller, so im going to blame lag
despite using it in several different games 
#66
Posté 25 janvier 2013 - 04:40
mechgouki
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I just want to confirm. Am I right to assume that Passives that increase your Power Damage, DO NOT affect your combo damage?
Modifié par mechgouki, 25 janvier 2013 - 04:40 .
#68
Posté 18 mars 2013 - 01:56
ThatOddGuy
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Cyonan, in the case of Sabotage, which explosions are considered "Tech Damage" (if any) for Rank 6: Tech Vulnerability?
#69
Posté 18 mars 2013 - 01:59
KiraTsukasa
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ThatOddGuy wrote...
Cyonan, in the case of Sabotage, which explosions are considered "Tech Damage" (if any) for Rank 6: Tech Vulnerability?
Tech burst, fire explosion, and cryo explosion.
That is, if the vulnerability applies to the explosion damage at all.
Modifié par KiraTsukasa, 18 mars 2013 - 02:00 .
#70
Posté 05 avril 2013 - 05:35
dudemacha
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Suppose if i reave a group, can i detonate each of them individually by throw or do any of the BE affected targets loose their priming ??
#71
Posté 05 avril 2013 - 07:12
E71
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Ya'll bringing math to ME sure know how to turn a game into work.
#72
Posté 05 avril 2013 - 05:13
Cyonan
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Nik6454 wrote...
Suppose if i reave a group, can i detonate each of them individually by throw or do any of the BE affected targets loose their priming ??
You can provided that Reave stays on the target that long. The short duration means it might wear off before you get all the targets.
In the case of the two kits that have Reave, Biotic Sphere will unprime from Reave on every target it hits and only give you a single BE.
Cluster Grenade can give you as many BEs as you have fragments, however if one of the fragments go off before the other ones and hits multiple primed target, it will unprime everything it hits.
E71 wrote...
Ya'll bringing math to ME sure know how to turn a game into work.
This is nothing compared to the theorycrafting that goes into WoW, or the kind of stuff I do on a daily basis for my actual work =P
