305 réponses à ce sujet

[teh DRUMPf!!]

  Okay, so a lot of people are irked over the fact that the catalyst doesn't just pack it in after admitting his solution is broken.

Here's the thing... the harvest only becomes "obsolete" if this cycle proves they can unilaterally destroy or repurpose a true-AI race (the Reapers) they have come into conflict with, or choose synthesis and thereby eliminate the problem. In doing so, we prove we won't *always* be wiped out by synthetic opponents, and need not be preserved in Reaper form.

If Shepard decides not to use the Crucible, it necessitates the need for the harvest all over again. We fail to prove an exception to the organic races the catalyst observed during Leviathan era, but rather, we reinforce the notion that we are incapable of saving ourselves. In this case, it is a display of mental incapability, as the only organic who was physically capable enough to get far enough to make any solution take place is unable to overcome emotional issues causing inaction.

It's a classic case of machine-logic, and it even exists in real life. Example: a pro football team kicking an extra-point kick, after the clock has expired, and team already has enough points to win. It would seem to be a meaningless practice, and it is, but it is necessary for statistical reasons -- everything from black-box simulators to Vegas gambling.


The catalyst won't surrender, because to him, there's no concept of war to begin with. It's not about saving his troops (if he even sees the Reapers as "troops" at all). There is only his solution, the conflict that arises from it with organics, and the new variables introduced by the Crucible. It's the reason why he reveals Destroy and Control options as available to you, though he doesn't much support either of them.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 18 janvier 2013 - 07:54 .

[cyrslash1974]

The catalyst explains to Shepard that his solutions are now false but still considers that his logic is definitively right. There is always war between synthetics and organics... even if Shepard could explain to him that the war could be avoided in the future and that peace is possible (depending of his decisions through the 3 games).

But the catalyst seems to be a stupid machine (or this option has not been considererd by the writters...).

[Ticonderoga117]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

  Okay, so a lot of people are irked over the fact that the catalyst doesn't just pack it in after admitting his solution is broken.

Here's the thing... the harvest only becomes "obsolete" if this cycle proves they can unilaterally destroy or repurpose a true-AI race (the Reapers) they have come into conflict with, or choose synthesis and thereby eliminate the problem. In doing so, we prove we won't *always* be wiped out by synthetic opponents, and need not be preserved in Reaper form.

If Shepard decides not to use the Crucible, it necessitates the need for the harvest all over again. We fail to prove an exception to the organic races the catalyst observed during Leviathan era, but rather, we reinforce the notion that we are incapable of saving ourselves. In this case, it is a display of mental incapability, as the only organic who was physically capable enough to get far enough to make any solution take place is unable to overcome emotional issues causing inaction.

It's a classic case of machine-logic, and it even exists in real life. Example: a pro football team kicking an extra-point kick, after the clock has expired, and team already has enough points to win. It would seem to be a meaningless practice, and it is, but it is necessary for statistical reasons -- everything from black-box simulators to Vegas gambling.


The catalyst won't surrender, because to him, there's no concept of war to begin with. It's not about saving his troops (if he even sees the Reapers as "troops" at all). There is only his solution, the conflict that arises from it with organics, and the new variables introduced by the Crucible. It's the reason why he reveals Destroy and Control options as available to you, though he doesn't much support either of them.

And all of this means nothing when he is a self-fulling prophacy. He used the Geth to attack the Citadel when all they wanted to do was be left alone. He leaves technology for all of us to find. He leaves the super fast ways to get to different clusters intact and free to use (mostly).

It's all a jumbled mess. The Reapers are the bigger threat to Galactic Civilization, not synthetics.

[Wayning_Star]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

  Okay, so a lot of people are irked over the fact that the catalyst doesn't just pack it in after admitting his solution is broken.

Here's the thing... the harvest only becomes "obsolete" if this cycle proves they can unilaterally destroy or repurpose a true-AI race (the Reapers) they have come into conflict with, or choose synthesis and thereby eliminate the problem. In doing so, we prove we won't *always* be wiped out by synthetic opponents, and need not be preserved in Reaper form.

If Shepard decides not to use the Crucible, it necessitates the need for the harvest all over again. We fail to prove an exception to the organic races the catalyst observed during Leviathan era, but rather, we reinforce the notion that we are incapable of saving ourselves. In this case, it is a display of mental incapability, as the only organic who was physically capable enough to get far enough to make any solution take place is unable to overcome emotional issues causing inaction.

It's a classic case of machine-logic, and it even exists in real life. Example: a pro football team kicking an extra-point kick, after the clock has expired, and team already has enough points to win. It would seem to be a meaningless practice, and it is, but it is necessary for statistical reasons -- everything from black-box simulators to Vegas gambling.


The catalyst won't surrender, because to him, there's no concept of war to begin with. It's not about saving his troops (if he even sees the Reapers as "troops" at all). There is only his solution, the conflict that arises from it with organics, and the new variables introduced by the Crucible. It's the reason why he reveals Destroy and Control options as available to you, though he doesn't much support either of them.

And all of this means nothing when he is a self-fulling prophacy. He used the Geth to attack the Citadel when all they wanted to do was be left alone. He leaves technology for all of us to find. He leaves the super fast ways to get to different clusters intact and free to use (mostly).

It's all a jumbled mess. The Reapers are the bigger threat to Galactic Civilization, not synthetics.

actually, the threat is greatest from the catalyst creators. Well, if thralldom bothers you.

[The Night Mammoth]

It still seems strange that, on top of saying its solution wont work any more before quite happily slaughtering the galaxy if you don't do what it wants, the Catalyst does a fair amount of work to prevent Shepard from even reaching the end to talk to it.

I'm not talking about it surrendering, but stopping the harvest to deal with the situation seems entirely logical considering it was, at the start, a machine designed to collect data and research a solution to whatever conclusion it deduces.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

cyrslash1974 wrote...

The catalyst explains to Shepard that his solutions are now false but still considers that his logic is definitively right. There is always war between synthetics and organics... even if Shepard could explain to him that the war could be avoided in the future and that peace is possible (depending of his decisions through the 3 games).

Rannoch peace doesn't work (to prove his solution wrong) because war could still break out at any time in the future.

The only thing that *can* prove him wrong is if organics face the worst-case-scenario threat, and eradicate it entirely.

[Ticonderoga117]

Wayning_Star wrote...
actually, the threat is greatest from the catalyst creators. Well, if thralldom bothers you.

Considering that:
-We have protection against that.
-They lost to an AI that had nothing to fight them with.
-They are completely stupid.
-There aren't many of them.

I'm not worried at all about the Leviathans.

[Dragoonlordz]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

And all of this means nothing when he is a self-fulling prophacy. He used the Geth to attack the Citadel when all they wanted to do was be left alone. He leaves technology for all of us to find. He leaves the super fast ways to get to different clusters intact and free to use (mostly).

It's all a jumbled mess. The Reapers are the bigger threat to Galactic Civilization, not synthetics.

The Geth were attacked by the Qurians prior to that event and turned into a war between them. Organics and synthetics fighting against each other even without him having to push them in any direction. Organics are the biggest threat in the galaxy not Reapers and not synthetics. Organics created Catalyst, organics created Geth. Organics are the root of all of the problems.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 18 janvier 2013 - 08:18 .

[Ticonderoga117]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

cyrslash1974 wrote...

The catalyst explains to Shepard that his solutions are now false but still considers that his logic is definitively right. There is always war between synthetics and organics... even if Shepard could explain to him that the war could be avoided in the future and that peace is possible (depending of his decisions through the 3 games).

Rannoch peace doesn't work (to prove his solution wrong) because war could still break out at any time in the future.

The only thing that *can* prove him wrong is if organics face the worst-case-scenario threat, and eradicate it entirely.

Welcome to life. Conflict happens. It's no different than if two organic species go at it and kill each other off entirely. This is not a problem.

[The Night Mammoth]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

And all of this means nothing when he is a self-fulling prophacy. He used the Geth to attack the Citadel when all they wanted to do was be left alone. He leaves technology for all of us to find. He leaves the super fast ways to get to different clusters intact and free to use (mostly).

It's all a jumbled mess. The Reapers are the bigger threat to Galactic Civilization, not synthetics.

The Geth were attacked by the Qurians prior to that event and turned into a war between them. Organics and synthetics fighting against each other even without him having to push them in any direction.

Both species survived, thus, it is irrelevant. 

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

It's all a jumbled mess. The Reapers are the bigger threat to Galactic Civilization, not synthetics.

Leviathan DLC?

Even before that, it was pretty clear from EC that he was operating on some background data.

[Ticonderoga117]

Dragoonlordz wrote...
The Geth were attacked by the Qurians prior to that event and turned into a war between them. Organics and synthetics fighting against each other even without him having to push them in any direction.

And then once the Quarians stopped trying to kill them, everything was fine. If the Quarians would've actually tried diplomacy instead of going in guns blazing, they could've gotten Rannoch back without a single loss of life on either side.

[Dragoonlordz]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

And all of this means nothing when he is a self-fulling prophacy. He used the Geth to attack the Citadel when all they wanted to do was be left alone. He leaves technology for all of us to find. He leaves the super fast ways to get to different clusters intact and free to use (mostly).

It's all a jumbled mess. The Reapers are the bigger threat to Galactic Civilization, not synthetics.

The Geth were attacked by the Qurians prior to that event and turned into a war between them. Organics and synthetics fighting against each other even without him having to push them in any direction.

Both species survived, thus, it is irrelevant. 

Using your twisted logic, the organics won after the citadel attack and both continued to exist organics and geth so by your logic that too is irrelevant.

[Ticonderoga117]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
Leviathan DLC?

Even before that, it was pretty clear from EC that he was operating on some background data.

The Leviathan DLC is a waste of time.

And if he truly wants to pevent this conflict, why does he leave behind technology that can make the situation much worse that can be freely used? What if the Geth decided to go on a "Kill all organics" spree? They could've popped through the relays and killed millions or billions more.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Welcome to life. Conflict happens. It's no different than if two organic species go at it and kill each other off entirely. This is not a problem.

lol.

In what world is total genocide of species "not a problem" - ?

And, it is *plenty* different than two organics going to war. The geth eliminated a population of billions into 17 million. That is unprecendeted violence and bloodshed. Only exception is the rachni wars, but at least that is understandable since the rachni were all hostile and have no civilians.

[Maxster_]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

HYR 2.0 wrote...

cyrslash1974 wrote...

The catalyst explains to Shepard that his solutions are now false but still considers that his logic is definitively right. There is always war between synthetics and organics... even if Shepard could explain to him that the war could be avoided in the future and that peace is possible (depending of his decisions through the 3 games).

Rannoch peace doesn't work (to prove his solution wrong) because war could still break out at any time in the future.

The only thing that *can* prove him wrong is if organics face the worst-case-scenario threat, and eradicate it entirely.

Welcome to life. Conflict happens. It's no different than if two organic species go at it and kill each other off entirely. This is not a problem.

More funny, that organics destroying organics is no problem, when synthetics almost destroyng organics suddenly is.
Krogans, who destroyed rachni, and bombed turian worlds with asteroids is no problem at all. Part of geth, manipulated by the reapers is. Or geth in general, when they almost destroyed quarians.

Truth is, reapers are the problem they pretend they fix.

Modifié par Maxster_, 18 janvier 2013 - 08:25 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

And all of this means nothing when he is a self-fulling prophacy. He used the Geth to attack the Citadel when all they wanted to do was be left alone. He leaves technology for all of us to find. He leaves the super fast ways to get to different clusters intact and free to use (mostly).

It's all a jumbled mess. The Reapers are the bigger threat to Galactic Civilization, not synthetics.

The Geth were attacked by the Qurians prior to that event and turned into a war between them. Organics and synthetics fighting against each other even without him having to push them in any direction.

Both species survived, thus, it is irrelevant. 

Using your twisted logic, the organics won after the citadel attack and both continued to exist organics and geth so by your logic that too is irrelevant.

It's not related to the point I made, which was that, despite the two forms of life fighting each other, neither was destroyed meaning that in relation the purpose of the Reapers, the conflict between the Geth and the Quarians is completely irrelevant, and that's whithout accounting for later Reaper influence. 

[Maxster_]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Welcome to life. Conflict happens. It's no different than if two organic species go at it and kill each other off entirely. This is not a problem.

lol.

In what world is total genocide of species "not a problem" - ?

And, it is *plenty* different than two organics going to war. The geth eliminated a population of billions into 17 million. That is unprecendeted violence and bloodshed. Only exception is the rachni wars, but at least that is understandable since the rachni were all hostile and have no civilians.

Justification of genocide. So sweet.

[Wayning_Star]

Ticonderoga117 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...
actually, the threat is greatest from the catalyst creators. Well, if thralldom bothers you.

Considering that:
-We have protection against that.
-They lost to an AI that had nothing to fight them with.
-They are completely stupid.
-There aren't many of them.

I'm not worried at all about the Leviathans.

Yeah, that's what THEY thought..about the intelligence. I wonder if they learned from their example?

how many of those indoctro-globes are out and about in the MEU, how many thralls? Oh, wait, thralls is what were used to set the Leviathan up for harvest.. go figure.

[Dragoonlordz]

The logic I would of used behind the Reapers should of been culling of organics for the simple reason organics are the problem in all cycles. As I said before organics are the biggest threat in the galaxy not Reapers and not synthetics. Organics created Catalyst, organics created Geth. Organics are the root of all of the problems. All Reapers do is cull the organic population and have it reset to zero to make it thousands of years before organics create yet another synthetic race then procede in creating yet another conflict with it.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 18 janvier 2013 - 08:29 .

[The Night Mammoth]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

The logic I would of used behind the Reapers should of been culling of organics for the simple reason organics are the problem in all cycles. As I said before "Organics are the biggest threat in the galaxy not Reapers and not synthetics. Organics created Catalyst, organics created Geth. Organics are the root of all of the problems". All Reapers do is cull the organic population and have it reset to zero to make it thousands of years before organics create yet another synthetic race then procede in creating yet another conflict with it.

Conflict doesn't matter unless there's a specific result. 

[Dragoonlordz]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

The logic I would of used behind the Reapers should of been culling of organics for the simple reason organics are the problem in all cycles. As I said before "Organics are the biggest threat in the galaxy not Reapers and not synthetics. Organics created Catalyst, organics created Geth. Organics are the root of all of the problems". All Reapers do is cull the organic population and have it reset to zero to make it thousands of years before organics create yet another synthetic race then procede in creating yet another conflict with it.

Conflict doesn't matter unless there's a specific result. 

That's a load of nonsense. Your going to have to do a lot better than that sentence to explain any reasonable logic that may exist to back up such a comment.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 18 janvier 2013 - 08:32 .

[cyrslash1974]

HYR 2.0 wrote...

cyrslash1974 wrote...

The catalyst explains to Shepard that his solutions are now false but still considers that his logic is definitively right. There is always war between synthetics and organics... even if Shepard could explain to him that the war could be avoided in the future and that peace is possible (depending of his decisions through the 3 games).

Rannoch peace doesn't work (to prove his solution wrong) because war could still break out at any time in the future.

The only thing that *can* prove him wrong is if organics face the worst-case-scenario threat, and eradicate it entirely.

Rannoch is not the sole example. The end of a borning conflict Legion-Tali in ME2 (using conciliation with Legion - which is a platform representing hundred of geths, showing that we can discuss with synthetics),  as well as EDI-Joker love story, are also evidence (i) that war could be avoided, (ii) than peace is possible and (iii) that we can have a discussion - pragma, conci - with machines (so why not with the catalyst ?).

Modifié par cyrslash1974, 18 janvier 2013 - 08:32 .

[Ticonderoga117]

HYR 2.0 wrote...
lol.

In what world is total genocide of species "not a problem" - ?

And, it is *plenty* different than two organics going to war. The geth eliminated a population of billions into 17 million. That is unprecendeted violence and bloodshed. Only exception is the rachni wars, but at least that is understandable since the rachni were all hostile and have no civilians.

So why doesn't the Catalyst talk about it like that? It's the same thing. No, it's cool if organics do it to organics, but when a single robot gets' involved, HOLY ****! STOP THE PRESSES AND SEND IN THE GIANT SQUIDS!

Why didn't the Catalyst stop to help the Rachni. They're an organic species that deserve to live as much as any one of us. Hell, the Reapers used them to try to get into the Citadel! I thought the Reapers were big on preservation? What the hell? Oh... right. The Reapers turn into something mutated and stupid in ME3.

[Wayning_Star]

[/quote]
More funny, that organics destroying organics is no problem, when synthetics almost destroyng organics suddenly is.
Krogans, who destroyed rachni, and bombed turian worlds with asteroids is no problem at all. Part of geth, manipulated by the reapers is. Or geth in general, when they almost destroyed quarians.

Truth is, reapers are the problem they pretend they fix.

[/quote]

the reapers are the means to the problems created by the intelligence who thinks that the catalyst can fix with the reaperships. Use chaos to fight chaos. Simple really.