305 réponses à ce sujet

[silverexile17s]

Meltemph wrote...

So yes, I believe that most, if not all, sci-fi series may come across this mentalaty of "creator vs created," at one point or another.

All I can say to this is, you need to read more fiction, becuase the "gods vs creator" motif is not the only version, nor is it considered the most accurate, nor is it the "most". It is popular in movies and TV shows because that is what people want with tv and movies, action paced stories with a lot of bullets.

I gave you a good starting point to reading other works of fiction. Whether you decide to recognize these forms of fiction is irrelevant.

Clash of the Titans?
Immortals?
Frankenstein?
God of War?
the upcomming movie "The Prototype"?
Caprica?
Battlestar Galactica?
Star Wars?
Star Trek?
Stargate?
Mass Effect?
Deus Ex?
Terminator?
The Matrix?
Halo?
MegaMan?
The Day the Earth Stood Still?
I, Robot?

Seems thsi motief of creator vs created repeats itself more then you think.

[silverexile17s]

KevShep wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

KevShep wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

Let me simplify for him:

To simplify, (I think. Let me know if I'm wrong) the Catalyst sees everything through numbers, as if it all was like a giant scale, and the variables are weights. It adds them all up on the scale,  and whichever way the scale tips, is the way things will likely go, hence, that's the path it takes.

My attempt at over-simplifying how the Catalyst sees things.

The AI works on paremeters and variables.

If it's data says that the highest most likely outcome is what it claims to be a+b=c (c being more likely than the other possiblities) then it is using subjective logic. The most likely to occur based on it's data is the most logical one to act upon. If it was using inductive logic it would be wrong to come to it's conclusion. However from what data we have it's fair to believe it's conclusion is wrong, but to it the conclusion is correct. As mentioned before I personally believe it's data is wrong but not impossible to me that it could be right because I do not have the same data or my data is not the same as what it made it's conclusion based on so I refuse to say absolutely that is it is wrong and remain in the stance I think it's wrong but I cannot be certain.

Exactally. _Maxster keeps making these false assumptions because he's using the wrong logic.
He's using emotional reasoning logic, which combines mathmatical factors with human intution and instinct. Using that logic, one can see the moral horror in the Catalyst's Solution.
The Catalyst doesn't use emotional reasoning for logic. It uses cold ruthless caluclus. Everything is numbers and probabilaties. The view of a computer, or calculator.
If you look at it from that viewpoint, it's easy to see why the Catalyst believed this was the right option: The numbers pointed to this as the likely outcome, and this as the most effectoive solution.
It isn't until Shepard reaches the end of the game, that the Catalyst realizes that it underestimated the emotional reasoning factor, hence why it stands down and lets Shepard choose a new Solution.

Your logic is wrong on this...

The reapers DO understand emotional logic because it uses indoctrination. The...ONLY...way to use indoctrination like the reapers do (they use it in the absolute way possible) you have to understand the emotional side of the organic other wise your not going to be able to indoctrinate.

Not really. The galaxy used the Mass Realys without any comprehension of what they really are or how they really work. It's just another tool.
Indoctrination doesn't need an understanding of emotional logic to use. The Derilict Reaper in ME2 proves that, as it's indoctrination field still functions, despite it being dead. The log of the Cerberus scientist monologes about how the indoctrination field around the Reaper is unconcious, like the way a God warps reality by just being there.
"It doesn't have to want to. It doesn't have to think about it. It just does."
So no, the Reapers don't need to understand organic logic. The indoctrination is by all evedence, a natural automatic responce.

The reapers manipulate and control indoctrination. This means that they HAVE to know the in's and out's of the organic mind and thought process in order to indoctrinate them.

Indoctrination is NOT a "tool" that all they have to do is flip a swich to use. They control the suggestions in the human mind without letting the organic know that they are being tricked...That requires them to understand EVERY thing about there emotional state and logic.

That's not what the Leviathans say. They claim that indoctrination is a powerful "conversion tool."
Also, the indoctrination through non-reaper items, like the artifacts on random worlds, and in ME: Evolution, shows that the Reapers do not need to personally maintain the field. Therefore, since it can be replicated by non-living things, like the articacts, indoctrination is a tool.
This is also highlighted by the indictrination field on the dead Reaper. It's an automatic responce. They don't need to think about it for it to happen. It just happens by itself. It's as natural as breathing is to us. Or as "touch-sensing" was to the protheans. Javik seemed unable to "flip the switch" to stop sensing his surroundings. This is the same with Reapers and Indoctrination.
So therefore, it's a tool. An automatic tool, but a tool nontheless. Nothing else.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 19 janvier 2013 - 10:13 .

[Meltemph]

Seems thsi motief of creator vs created repeats itself more then you think.

I was talking in terms of scifi, and not all of those that you posted deal with the organics and synthetics in overly simple ways as what you are arguing. Also, you seem to not think scifi books exist?

Synthetic and organic is talked about a lot, but you seem to think it is simply(very simply) robot vs human.

Modifié par Meltemph, 19 janvier 2013 - 10:08 .

[Dragoonlordz]

KevShep wrote...

The reapers manipulate and control indoctrination. This means that they HAVE to know the in's and out's of the organic mind and thought process in order to indoctrinate them.

Indoctrination is NOT a "tool" that all they have to do is flip a swich to use. They control the suggestions in the human mind without letting the organic know that they are being tricked...That requires them to understand EVERY thing about there emotional state and logic.

It does not really make any difference whether they know of human emotions or not. It does not mean the Catalyst uses such in extrapolating it's data or reaching it's conclusions. Lets also not forget people here are applying human logic to something that was not created by humans, who is to say Leviathans had the same logic structure we use. We as a species add new forms of logic to our systems and society all the time so maybe they are using a form of logic we have yet to begin using ourselves.

There are some forms of human logic that can be used to defend it's position but requires belief in certain variables. Especially the aspect of we were not told everything or seen everything it has seen. Even though we are humans who play it and the game is made by humans so you can argue uses human logic, at that stage you are no longing roleplaying or even partaking in the universe because in that universe there are multiple other alien species with their own societies and potential logic. We might be able to apply human logic to explain everything or wish to but Shepard is not in such a position in that setting.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 19 janvier 2013 - 10:16 .

[silverexile17s]

Meltemph wrote...

Seems thsi motief of creator vs created repeats itself more then you think.

I was talking in terms of scifi, and not all of those that you posted deal with the organics and organics in overly simple as what you are arguing. Also, you seem to not think scifi books exist?

Synthetic and organic is talked about a lot, but you seem to think it is simply(very simply) robot vs human.

robot vs organic is the correct term.
Look at the drones of Stargate as well.
And also, I was under the assumption that I, Robot WAS a book originally?
And that Star Trek, Star Wars, and even Stargate had books as well?

[Meltemph]

robot vs organic is the correct term.

That is a simple minded view to be frank, but I have no desire to start getting in depth wtih you about this.

Look at the drones of Stargate as well.

Stargate wasn't trying to use the replicators as a societal or philosophical statement... It was made for entertainment purposes only.

And also, I was under the assumption that I, Robot WAS a book originally?

Yup, and I advise you reading it.

And that Star Trek

They deal with the synthetic argument like Asimov, so not sure what you are saying here.

Star Wars

Star Wars doesnt deal with syntehtic vs organic... I'm not sure what you are talking about.

and even Stargate had books as well?

I don't think so. It was born from the movie I believe.

[KevShep]

silverexile17s wrote...

That's not what the Leviathans say. They claim that indoctrination is a powerful "conversion tool."
Also, the indoctrination through non-reaper items, like the artifacts on random worlds, and in ME: Evolution, shows that the Reapers do not need to personally maintain the field. Therefore, since it can be replicated by non-living things, like the articacts, indoctrination is a tool.
This is also highlighted by the indictrination field on the dead Reaper. It's an automatic responce. They don't need to think about it for it to happen. It just happens by itself. It's as natural as breathing is to us. Or as "touch-sensing" was to the protheans. Javik seemed unable to "flip the switch" to stop sensing his surroundings. This is the same with Reapers and Indoctrination.
So therefore, it's a tool. Nothing else.

Iam not talking about the..." indoctrination field"...Iam talking about indoctrination process itself. As per codex the process of indoctrination, the reapers giving "suggestions" to the subject meaning that they are implanting there thoughts into the organic...:based on"... there need and or situation. That means that they DO control it(which means that its not just a push botton process that they have no control over). It even mentions that they manipulate the organics with this process.

Also your still not answering the main question. You mention that they(reapers) do use indoctrination as natural as breathing. With that in mind if it is that natural to them then they SHOULD know the emotional logic process better then anyone because they CONTROL it.

How do the reapers get the organics to do there bidding if not by controling the process of indoctrination?  

[Meltemph]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

KevShep wrote...

The reapers manipulate and control indoctrination. This means that they HAVE to know the in's and out's of the organic mind and thought process in order to indoctrinate them.

Indoctrination is NOT a "tool" that all they have to do is flip a swich to use. They control the suggestions in the human mind without letting the organic know that they are being tricked...That requires them to understand EVERY thing about there emotional state and logic.

It does not really make any difference whether they know of human emotions or not. It does not mean the Catalyst uses such in extrapolating it's data or reaching it's conclusions. Lets also not forget people here are applying human logic to something that was not created by humans, who is to say Leviathans had the same logic structure we use. We as a species add new forms of logic to our systems and society all the time so maybe they are using a form of logic we have yet to begin using ourselves.

All this does is obfuscate the story and the plot even more.  I dobut taht was the writers intention.  Anywho, I am now kinda bored with this topic, sooo.  Was fun.

[KevShep]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

KevShep wrote...

The reapers manipulate and control indoctrination. This means that they HAVE to know the in's and out's of the organic mind and thought process in order to indoctrinate them.

Indoctrination is NOT a "tool" that all they have to do is flip a swich to use. They control the suggestions in the human mind without letting the organic know that they are being tricked...That requires them to understand EVERY thing about there emotional state and logic.

It does not really make any difference whether they know of human emotions or not. It does not mean the Catalyst uses such in extrapolating it's data or reaching it's conclusions. Lets also not forget people here are applying human logic to something that was not created by humans, who is to say Leviathans had the same logic structure we use. We as a species add new forms of logic to our systems and society all the time so maybe they are using a form of logic we have yet to begin using ourselves.

You guys are missing the point by a mile.

The catalyst logic is based on ONLY equation logic that is not complete.

The organics logic is based on emotional logic (as well as equation logic but not as much as emotional logic).

If the catalyst is ONLY useing logic based only on equational logic then he CANT use indoctrination( nor can the reapers) because you HAVE to know emotional logic in order to indoctrinate them. 

Modifié par KevShep, 19 janvier 2013 - 10:22 .

[Dragoonlordz]

KevShep wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

KevShep wrote...

The reapers manipulate and control indoctrination. This means that they HAVE to know the in's and out's of the organic mind and thought process in order to indoctrinate them.

Indoctrination is NOT a "tool" that all they have to do is flip a swich to use. They control the suggestions in the human mind without letting the organic know that they are being tricked...That requires them to understand EVERY thing about there emotional state and logic.

It does not really make any difference whether they know of human emotions or not. It does not mean the Catalyst uses such in extrapolating it's data or reaching it's conclusions. Lets also not forget people here are applying human logic to something that was not created by humans, who is to say Leviathans had the same logic structure we use. We as a species add new forms of logic to our systems and society all the time so maybe they are using a form of logic we have yet to begin using ourselves.

You guys are missing the point by a mile.

The catalyst logic is based on ONLY equation logic that is not complete.

The organics logic is based on emotional logic (as well as equation logic but not as much as emotional logic).

If the catalyst is ONLY useing logic based only on equational logic then he CANT use indoctrination( nor can the reapers) because you HAVE to know emotional logic in order to indoctrinate them. 

The Catalyst is fully synthetic, the Reapers are both synthetic and organic. Reapers can use it because they were created from Leviathans but the catalyst cannot use it. It may not even understand it. I can see it this way that the catalyst makes it's goals and objectives known to the Reapers in form of instructions probably to the synthetic part for them to work towards. It is known the Reapers retains some individuality and persona because of the organic aspect of their being. They can express themselves how they wish, the can choose how to acheive the goal set out by the catalyst as long as they are working towards that goal. I see therefore no reason for why the catalyst would be using emotional logic even if the Reapers do. Of which I believe the Reapers do not use indoctrination by choice so it is not using indoctrination on purpose, it is part of their genetic organic side left over from the Leviathans just like how a dead Reapers tech can still indoctrinate (imho).

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 19 janvier 2013 - 10:33 .

[KevShep]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

KevShep wrote...

The reapers manipulate and control indoctrination. This means that they HAVE to know the in's and out's of the organic mind and thought process in order to indoctrinate them.

Indoctrination is NOT a "tool" that all they have to do is flip a swich to use. They control the suggestions in the human mind without letting the organic know that they are being tricked...That requires them to understand EVERY thing about there emotional state and logic.

It does not really make any difference whether they know of human emotions or not. It does not mean the Catalyst uses such in extrapolating it's data or reaching it's conclusions. Lets also not forget people here are applying human logic to something that was not created by humans, who is to say Leviathans had the same logic structure we use. We as a species add new forms of logic to our systems and society all the time so maybe they are using a form of logic we have yet to begin using ourselves.

You guys are missing the point by a mile.

The catalyst logic is based on ONLY equation logic that is not complete.

The organics logic is based on emotional logic (as well as equation logic but not as much as emotional logic).

If the catalyst is ONLY useing logic based only on equational logic then he CANT use indoctrination( nor can the reapers) because you HAVE to know emotional logic in order to indoctrinate them. 

The Catalyst is fully synthetic, the Reapers are both synthetic and organic. Reapers can use it because they were created from Leviathans but the catalyst cannot use it. It may not even understand it. I can see it this way that the catalyst makes it's goals and objectives known to the Reapers in form of instructions probably to the synthetic part for them to work towards. It is known the Reapers retains some individuality and persona because of the organic aspect of their being. They can express themselves how they wish, the can choose how to acheive the goal set out by the catalyst as long as they are working towards that goal. I see therefore no reason for why the catalyst would be using emotional logic even if the Reapers do. Of which I believe the Reapers do not use indoctrination by choice so it is not using indoctrination on purpose, it is part of their genetic organic side left over from the Leviathans just like how a dead Reapers tech can still indoctrinate (imho).

So what your saying is that the reapers have the logic to find a new solution but dont? If they are part organic (and they are that is true) then why not rebel and or find a way to change the catalysts mind. btw isnt the catalyst deacivated during the whole time?

The indoctrination process is controled by them as per codex and as per the indoctrinated subjects throughout the series. They all had fear and awe that was manipulating them (even the codex says this), these are emotional traits. The dead reaper's thoughts were not all there, they were in a dream state. The organics that were affected by the "dead" reaper were having the same dream like thoughts patterns...so yes they DO control it. Read the codex.

Modifié par KevShep, 19 janvier 2013 - 10:49 .

[silverexile17s]

Meltemph wrote...

robot vs organic is the correct term.

That is a simple minded view to be frank, but I have no desire to start getting in depth wtih you about this.

Look at the drones of Stargate as well.

Stargate wasn't trying to use the replicators as a societal or philosophical statement... It was made for entertainment purposes only.

And also, I was under the assumption that I, Robot WAS a book originally?

Yup, and I advise you reading it.

And that Star Trek

They deal with the synthetic argument like Asimov, so not sure what you are saying here.

Star Wars

Star Wars doesnt deal with syntehtic vs organic... I'm not sure what you are talking about.

and even Stargate had books as well?

I don't think so. It was born from the movie I believe.

You still can't deny what the replicators represent in this.

And I did read parts of that I, Robot  series. That series is what convinced me that synthetic life would have evolved no matter what path anyone took.

And I'm saying to look at the Borg.
The Borg are like the Reapers. What we consider genocide, they consider preservation and ascendence.

The Clone Wars. And there have been several droid rebellion arcs. Spicifically, IG-88 from "Tales of the Bounty Hunters."

[silverexile17s]

KevShep wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

That's not what the Leviathans say. They claim that indoctrination is a powerful "conversion tool."
Also, the indoctrination through non-reaper items, like the artifacts on random worlds, and in ME: Evolution, shows that the Reapers do not need to personally maintain the field. Therefore, since it can be replicated by non-living things, like the articacts, indoctrination is a tool.
This is also highlighted by the indictrination field on the dead Reaper. It's an automatic responce. They don't need to think about it for it to happen. It just happens by itself. It's as natural as breathing is to us. Or as "touch-sensing" was to the protheans. Javik seemed unable to "flip the switch" to stop sensing his surroundings. This is the same with Reapers and Indoctrination.
So therefore, it's a tool. Nothing else.

Iam not talking about the..." indoctrination field"...Iam talking about indoctrination process itself. As per codex the process of indoctrination, the reapers giving "suggestions" to the subject meaning that they are implanting there thoughts into the organic...:based on"... there need and or situation. That means that they DO control it(which means that its not just a push botton process that they have no control over). It even mentions that they manipulate the organics with this process.

Also your still not answering the main question. You mention that they(reapers) do use indoctrination as natural as breathing. With that in mind if it is that natural to them then they SHOULD know the emotional logic process better then anyone because they CONTROL it.

How do the reapers get the organics to do there bidding if not by controling the process of indoctrination?  

Again, the same as the protheans. Javik could "focus" his sensor abilaty, but, since it was a passive physical trait, he could never shut it off. That's why he's always washing his hands in his quarters.
Same here. They can direct it, but it's still a passive trait. They cannot shut it off. It's always active, and always working. It's as natural as the protheans sensor ability is to them, which is in turn as natural as breathing is to us.
The suggestions are like an always-broadcasting subliminal message. They can focus it to make it stronger, but they acn never shut it off, as it is a natural responce, a passive trait.
It's like a messag that is stuck on a looping track. It can be made louder, but can't be shut off. It effects entire areas of people like a wideband signal. It can be directed to spicific people. But it can't be shut off. Anymore then they can cut their own limbs off.
They can enhance it. They can direct it. They CANNOT "flip an off switch" for it. It a passive trait that's part of who/what they are.

And again, you're wrong about knowing organic logic. They don't question the minipulation of that, because it DOESN'T interact with their logic. It shuts their logic down. It doesn't minipulate it. There's no clever Reaper crafting. It's just the message "Obey Us." The organics OWN mind is what tries to rationallize the sudden change in self-morals, in an attempt to build the illusion that they are still in control of their own lives. Self-doubt, guilt and paranoia are what cause the changes in reaction to the message. Not the message itself.
They don't question how it works, just like organics don't question how the Realys work.
It's just there. It simply is. They evolved it like the protheans did their sensor abilaty.

[silverexile17s]

KevShep wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

KevShep wrote...

The reapers manipulate and control indoctrination. This means that they HAVE to know the in's and out's of the organic mind and thought process in order to indoctrinate them.

Indoctrination is NOT a "tool" that all they have to do is flip a swich to use. They control the suggestions in the human mind without letting the organic know that they are being tricked...That requires them to understand EVERY thing about there emotional state and logic.

It does not really make any difference whether they know of human emotions or not. It does not mean the Catalyst uses such in extrapolating it's data or reaching it's conclusions. Lets also not forget people here are applying human logic to something that was not created by humans, who is to say Leviathans had the same logic structure we use. We as a species add new forms of logic to our systems and society all the time so maybe they are using a form of logic we have yet to begin using ourselves.

You guys are missing the point by a mile.

The catalyst logic is based on ONLY equation logic that is not complete.

The organics logic is based on emotional logic (as well as equation logic but not as much as emotional logic).

If the catalyst is ONLY useing logic based only on equational logic then he CANT use indoctrination( nor can the reapers) because you HAVE to know emotional logic in order to indoctrinate them. 

The Catalyst is fully synthetic, the Reapers are both synthetic and organic. Reapers can use it because they were created from Leviathans but the catalyst cannot use it. It may not even understand it. I can see it this way that the catalyst makes it's goals and objectives known to the Reapers in form of instructions probably to the synthetic part for them to work towards. It is known the Reapers retains some individuality and persona because of the organic aspect of their being. They can express themselves how they wish, the can choose how to acheive the goal set out by the catalyst as long as they are working towards that goal. I see therefore no reason for why the catalyst would be using emotional logic even if the Reapers do. Of which I believe the Reapers do not use indoctrination by choice so it is not using indoctrination on purpose, it is part of their genetic organic side left over from the Leviathans just like how a dead Reapers tech can still indoctrinate (imho).

So what your saying is that the reapers have the logic to find a new solution but dont? If they are part organic (and they are that is true) then why not rebel and or find a way to change the catalysts mind. btw isnt the catalyst deacivated during the whole time?

The indoctrination process is controled by them as per codex and as per the indoctrinated subjects throughout the series. They all had fear and awe that was manipulating them (even the codex says this), these are emotional traits. The dead reaper's thoughts were not all there, they were in a dream state. The organics that were affected by the "dead" reaper were having the same dream like thoughts patterns...so yes they DO control it. Read the codex.

The Codex also still says that the protheans built the relays and the Citadel. That only changes after ME3. It only displays galactic information, which, as we've seen with the images of the protheans in the codex, is not always accurate.
The can enhance and focus it. They can't shut it off. They have no control over the message it broadcasts. (Obey Us). Just how quickly before the subject breaks. If it was something they controled directly, then their isolated artifacts would not be capable of using it. Nor would a dead Reaper be able to indoctrinate.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 19 janvier 2013 - 11:06 .

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...
-snip

It is a known premise that synthetic races have wiped out organic ones. It is a known premise that on many occassions conflict between organics and synthetics happen without instigation of the Reapers. It is subjective logic I am using which is an accepted form of logic. I told you to read up on the three forms of logic earlier because your coming across is ignorant by crying logical fallacy to everything even though it is not.

There is no premise that a synthetic race wiped out an organic race. Not even the reapers were successful in wiping out the Leviathans. The Geth did not wipe out the Quarians. Granted these were close, but not completely successful. The Zha'til did not wipe out the Zha, but the Protheans solution to the problem was to cause the sun of the Zha's system to supernova.

Unless you are including the Reapers themselves as synthetics. Or are they considered "hybrids". If you are considering them synthetics, we end up in the: "Yo dawg, I heard you were creating synthetics so I made a bunch of synthetics to kill you before you made synthetics that killed you." If this is the case then there are plenty of examples. If not, then there are not.

If you can point me to an exception to this in the codex please do.

I don't have time to look up and read up on logic form debates. I'll leave that to you guys.

I can't be bothered to load up ME3 and write down codex entries so taken from the walkthrough...

If you allow the upload, Legion will sacrifice itself to distribute the new programming and the upload will be finalized. The Migrant Fleet will be wiped out by the newly-enhanced geth, resulting in the extinction of the quarian race.

Okay, true, but then that is Shepard's fault, not Legion's. Shepard is responsible for it.

[KevShep]

silverexile17s wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

KevShep wrote...

The reapers manipulate and control indoctrination. This means that they HAVE to know the in's and out's of the organic mind and thought process in order to indoctrinate them.

Indoctrination is NOT a "tool" that all they have to do is flip a swich to use. They control the suggestions in the human mind without letting the organic know that they are being tricked...That requires them to understand EVERY thing about there emotional state and logic.

It does not really make any difference whether they know of human emotions or not. It does not mean the Catalyst uses such in extrapolating it's data or reaching it's conclusions. Lets also not forget people here are applying human logic to something that was not created by humans, who is to say Leviathans had the same logic structure we use. We as a species add new forms of logic to our systems and society all the time so maybe they are using a form of logic we have yet to begin using ourselves.

You guys are missing the point by a mile.

The catalyst logic is based on ONLY equation logic that is not complete.

The organics logic is based on emotional logic (as well as equation logic but not as much as emotional logic).

If the catalyst is ONLY useing logic based only on equational logic then he CANT use indoctrination( nor can the reapers) because you HAVE to know emotional logic in order to indoctrinate them. 

The Catalyst is fully synthetic, the Reapers are both synthetic and organic. Reapers can use it because they were created from Leviathans but the catalyst cannot use it. It may not even understand it. I can see it this way that the catalyst makes it's goals and objectives known to the Reapers in form of instructions probably to the synthetic part for them to work towards. It is known the Reapers retains some individuality and persona because of the organic aspect of their being. They can express themselves how they wish, the can choose how to acheive the goal set out by the catalyst as long as they are working towards that goal. I see therefore no reason for why the catalyst would be using emotional logic even if the Reapers do. Of which I believe the Reapers do not use indoctrination by choice so it is not using indoctrination on purpose, it is part of their genetic organic side left over from the Leviathans just like how a dead Reapers tech can still indoctrinate (imho).

So what your saying is that the reapers have the logic to find a new solution but dont? If they are part organic (and they are that is true) then why not rebel and or find a way to change the catalysts mind. btw isnt the catalyst deacivated during the whole time?

The indoctrination process is controled by them as per codex and as per the indoctrinated subjects throughout the series. They all had fear and awe that was manipulating them (even the codex says this), these are emotional traits. The dead reaper's thoughts were not all there, they were in a dream state. The organics that were affected by the "dead" reaper were having the same dream like thoughts patterns...so yes they DO control it. Read the codex.

The Codex also still says that the protheans built the relays and the Citadel. That only changes after ME3. It only displays galactic information, which, as we've seen with the images of the protheans in the codex, is not always accurate.
The can enhance and focus it. They can't shut it off. They have no control over the message it broadcasts. (Obey Us). Just how quickly before the subject breaks. If it was something they controled directly, then their isolated artifacts would not be capable of using it. Nor would a dead Reaper be able to indoctrinate.

First off where did the codex get the information on indoctrination to begin with?
 Keep in mind that the game trys to trick you into thinking that the protheans built the relays because the true reason is a SPOILER in-game, with that in mind what reason does the game have to trick you into false info on indoctrination?
Second, If you look at other indoctrinated subjects you can clearly see that the reapers control it such as with Arrival where they chose a leader in that girl and make them do the reapers bidding based off of her fear and awe! 

Edit: there isolated artifacts use the same tech as the quantum communicator that the normady uses. They CAN control the indoctirnation process through them as well.

Modifié par KevShep, 19 janvier 2013 - 11:33 .

[silverexile17s]

KevShep wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

KevShep wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

KevShep wrote...

The reapers manipulate and control indoctrination. This means that they HAVE to know the in's and out's of the organic mind and thought process in order to indoctrinate them.

Indoctrination is NOT a "tool" that all they have to do is flip a swich to use. They control the suggestions in the human mind without letting the organic know that they are being tricked...That requires them to understand EVERY thing about there emotional state and logic.

It does not really make any difference whether they know of human emotions or not. It does not mean the Catalyst uses such in extrapolating it's data or reaching it's conclusions. Lets also not forget people here are applying human logic to something that was not created by humans, who is to say Leviathans had the same logic structure we use. We as a species add new forms of logic to our systems and society all the time so maybe they are using a form of logic we have yet to begin using ourselves.

You guys are missing the point by a mile.

The catalyst logic is based on ONLY equation logic that is not complete.

The organics logic is based on emotional logic (as well as equation logic but not as much as emotional logic).

If the catalyst is ONLY useing logic based only on equational logic then he CANT use indoctrination( nor can the reapers) because you HAVE to know emotional logic in order to indoctrinate them. 

The Catalyst is fully synthetic, the Reapers are both synthetic and organic. Reapers can use it because they were created from Leviathans but the catalyst cannot use it. It may not even understand it. I can see it this way that the catalyst makes it's goals and objectives known to the Reapers in form of instructions probably to the synthetic part for them to work towards. It is known the Reapers retains some individuality and persona because of the organic aspect of their being. They can express themselves how they wish, the can choose how to acheive the goal set out by the catalyst as long as they are working towards that goal. I see therefore no reason for why the catalyst would be using emotional logic even if the Reapers do. Of which I believe the Reapers do not use indoctrination by choice so it is not using indoctrination on purpose, it is part of their genetic organic side left over from the Leviathans just like how a dead Reapers tech can still indoctrinate (imho).

So what your saying is that the reapers have the logic to find a new solution but dont? If they are part organic (and they are that is true) then why not rebel and or find a way to change the catalysts mind. btw isnt the catalyst deacivated during the whole time?

The indoctrination process is controled by them as per codex and as per the indoctrinated subjects throughout the series. They all had fear and awe that was manipulating them (even the codex says this), these are emotional traits. The dead reaper's thoughts were not all there, they were in a dream state. The organics that were affected by the "dead" reaper were having the same dream like thoughts patterns...so yes they DO control it. Read the codex.

The Codex also still says that the protheans built the relays and the Citadel. That only changes after ME3. It only displays galactic information, which, as we've seen with the images of the protheans in the codex, is not always accurate.
The can enhance and focus it. They can't shut it off. They have no control over the message it broadcasts. (Obey Us). Just how quickly before the subject breaks. If it was something they controled directly, then their isolated artifacts would not be capable of using it. Nor would a dead Reaper be able to indoctrinate.

First off where did the codex get the information on indoctrination to begin with?
 Keep in mind that the game trys to trick you into thinking that the protheans built the relays because the true reason is a SPOILER in-game, with that in mind what reason does the game have to trick you into false info on indoctrination?
Second, If you look at other indoctrinated subjects you can clearly see that the reapers control it such as with Arrival where they chose a leader in that girl and make them do the reapers bidding based off of her fear and awe! 

Edit: there isolated artifacts use the same tech as the quantum communicator that the normady uses. They CAN control the indoctirnation process through them as well.

First off, the Codex didn't change at all in ME2, I remind you. Explain that.
Second,  is the humans own minds doing that. Kenson was the leader of the Project beforehand, and they retained that mentality afterword. Indoctrination had nothing to do with them associating Kerson as leader. That was what they already did before, because she was the leader before.  It wasn't any of the indoctrination. It was all just how they responded to it. Every mind responds differently to the signal. The signal never changes. What changes is how each being reacts to it.

[silverexile17s]

[quote]Dragoonlordz wrote...

[quote]Maxster_ wrote...

-snip-

[/quote]

Your reply is filled with so much nonsense and inaccuracies it would produce a quote pyramid so long it would take someone an hour to read to two hours to write. So instead I will just reply with your excuses are bad, your logic is flawed and your entire post is filled vast amounts of fallacy. Those who come after can read it and see for themselves without the need of me quoting every other sentence and pointing out why each is wrong. Now you can view that as me not being able to counter the really bad, false and innacurate statements of yours if you wish, but in reality I merely see how stupid your counters to my last post were that I assume everyone else can too. You even contradict your own comments in your own reply.

[/qoute]

Par for the course. He never truly refutes anything posted against him.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 19 janvier 2013 - 11:57 .

[KevShep]

silverexile17s wrote...


First off, the Codex didn't change at all in ME2, I remind you. Explain that.
Second,  is the humans own minds doing that. Kenson was the leader of the Project beforehand, and they retained that mentality afterword. Indoctrination had nothing to do with them associating Kerson as leader. That was what they already did before, because she was the leader before.  It wasn't any of the indoctrination. It was all just how they responded to it. Every mind responds differently to the signal. The signal never changes. What changes is how each being reacts to it.

Yes the codex DID change in ME2. it mentions in ME1 that it WAS built by the protheans and in ME2 that it was changed to "it is believed" to be built by the protheans.

Second, the reapers chose her to focus on(be it because of orginal status as leader or something else, It does not matter). The reapers had direct control over her through her own fears and awe of the reapers( which is EXACTLY what the codex mentions about indoctrination process).

The "signal" is not what indoctrination is. The signal is what is used to amplify there influence and its through there signal that the reapers can pick and chose who and what to indoctrinate and how to indoctrinate. As you said, all minds are different so is the method to manipulate each one. This means that they control indoctrination.

Modifié par KevShep, 20 janvier 2013 - 12:05 .

[silverexile17s]

KevShep wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...


First off, the Codex didn't change at all in ME2, I remind you. Explain that.
Second,  is the humans own minds doing that. Kenson was the leader of the Project beforehand, and they retained that mentality afterword. Indoctrination had nothing to do with them associating Kerson as leader. That was what they already did before, because she was the leader before.  It wasn't any of the indoctrination. It was all just how they responded to it. Every mind responds differently to the signal. The signal never changes. What changes is how each being reacts to it.

Yes the codex DID change in ME2. it mentions in ME1 that it WAS built by the protheans and in ME2 that it was changed to "it is believed" to be built by the protheans.

Second, the reapers chose her to focus on(be it because of orginal status as leader or something else, It does not matter). The reapers had direct control over her through her own fears and awe of the reapers( which is EXACTLY what the codex mentions about indoctrination process).

The "signal" is not what indoctrination is. The signal is what is used to amplify there influence and its through there signal that the reapers can pick and chose who and what to indoctrinate and how to indoctrinate. As you said, all minds are different so is the method to manipulate each one. This means that they control indoctrination.

There is still nothing that refrences the Reapers. Also, it refers to Sovergien as simply a "dreadnought." Nothing that truly refrences the Reapers. So that doesn't count at all.

And second, again, wrong. The humans chose to focus on her, not the Reapers. They reacted tp the signal in different ways. They all turned at the same time, and played follow the leader, and chose for themselves to see Kenson in that light.
So again, wrong. Kenson being leader was by the human's minds. NOT the Reapers. It also says that it effects people a veriaty of ways. Some over others. Which exemplifies what I said anout it all being different reactions to the same signal.

That signal is indeed what Indoctrination is.  There is no individual fine-tuning. It's just a broad-band signal that gradually weakens the subject. They react differently to it, but all arrive at the same spot. It's just the same signal, with different reactions to it. The mind reacts to it differently, weakening itself becasue everyone reacts in a different manner to the "Obey Us" command. Some fall quickly, some fall slowly. Some class it as whispers of insanity, others refuse to accept it. But there is no individual modification to the signal. It's the same signal every time.
All they do is decide on who to focus it on. THAT'S IT.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 20 janvier 2013 - 12:30 .

[KevShep]

silverexile17s wrote...

KevShep wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...


First off, the Codex didn't change at all in ME2, I remind you. Explain that.
Second,  is the humans own minds doing that. Kenson was the leader of the Project beforehand, and they retained that mentality afterword. Indoctrination had nothing to do with them associating Kerson as leader. That was what they already did before, because she was the leader before.  It wasn't any of the indoctrination. It was all just how they responded to it. Every mind responds differently to the signal. The signal never changes. What changes is how each being reacts to it.

Yes the codex DID change in ME2. it mentions in ME1 that it WAS built by the protheans and in ME2 that it was changed to "it is believed" to be built by the protheans.

Second, the reapers chose her to focus on(be it because of orginal status as leader or something else, It does not matter). The reapers had direct control over her through her own fears and awe of the reapers( which is EXACTLY what the codex mentions about indoctrination process).

The "signal" is not what indoctrination is. The signal is what is used to amplify there influence and its through there signal that the reapers can pick and chose who and what to indoctrinate and how to indoctrinate. As you said, all minds are different so is the method to manipulate each one. This means that they control indoctrination.

There is still nothing that refrences the Reapers. Also, it refers to Sovergien as simply a "dreadnought." Nothing that truly refrences the Reapers. So that doesn't count at all.

And second, again, wrong. The humans chose to focus on her, not the Reapers. They reacted tp the signal in different ways. They all turned at the same time, and played follow the leader, and chose for themselves to see Kenson in that light.
So again, wrong. Kenson being leader was by the human's minds. NOT the Reapers. It also says that it effects people a veriaty of ways. Some over others. Which exemplifies what I said anout it all being different reactions to the same signal.

That signal is indeed what Indoctrination is.  There is no individual fine-tuning. It's just a broad-band signal that gradually weakens the subject. They react differently to it, but all arrive at the same spot. It's just the same signal, with different reactions to it. The mind reacts to it differently, weakening itself becasue everyone reacts in a different manner to the "Obey Us" command. Some fall quickly, some fall slowly. Some class it as whispers of insanity, others refuse to accept it. But there is no individual modification to the signal. It's the same signal every time.
All they do is decide on who to focus it on. THAT'S IT.

Well Iam not sure what your meaning by reference to the reapers is about.

Second, again your missing what is going on. If everyone is not indoctrinated then not eveyone would be on her side. There only on her side because there indoctrinated by the reapers.

Third, The signal is NEVER said that it WAS indoctrination. It IS said however by the(not in the same words) codex that the signal is just the bridge to the organics mind and not the actuall process. Its like a computer, you need a connection(signal) to the monitor from the CPU in order to use the computer.

The process for everyone is different...case in point... Do you know why Kenson is helping the reapers? She is helping them because she thinks that they are our salvation that is based in AWE of the reapers which is an emotion affected by indoctrination on the reapers behalf. They are manipulating her. They are NOT forcing her to do these things, they are making her mindset in a way that she CANT resist there influence.

[ziyon conqueror]

Because millions of years of gathering information gives it a god-complex/superiority complex, making it think that it knows better than anyone. But that just a synthetic point-of view. What about the organics'? Our opinion should matter

[silverexile17s]

KevShep wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...

KevShep wrote...

silverexile17s wrote...


First off, the Codex didn't change at all in ME2, I remind you. Explain that.
Second,  is the humans own minds doing that. Kenson was the leader of the Project beforehand, and they retained that mentality afterword. Indoctrination had nothing to do with them associating Kerson as leader. That was what they already did before, because she was the leader before.  It wasn't any of the indoctrination. It was all just how they responded to it. Every mind responds differently to the signal. The signal never changes. What changes is how each being reacts to it.

Yes the codex DID change in ME2. it mentions in ME1 that it WAS built by the protheans and in ME2 that it was changed to "it is believed" to be built by the protheans.

Second, the reapers chose her to focus on(be it because of orginal status as leader or something else, It does not matter). The reapers had direct control over her through her own fears and awe of the reapers( which is EXACTLY what the codex mentions about indoctrination process).

The "signal" is not what indoctrination is. The signal is what is used to amplify there influence and its through there signal that the reapers can pick and chose who and what to indoctrinate and how to indoctrinate. As you said, all minds are different so is the method to manipulate each one. This means that they control indoctrination.

There is still nothing that refrences the Reapers. Also, it refers to Sovergien as simply a "dreadnought." Nothing that truly refrences the Reapers. So that doesn't count at all.

And second, again, wrong. The humans chose to focus on her, not the Reapers. They reacted tp the signal in different ways. They all turned at the same time, and played follow the leader, and chose for themselves to see Kenson in that light.
So again, wrong. Kenson being leader was by the human's minds. NOT the Reapers. It also says that it effects people a veriaty of ways. Some over others. Which exemplifies what I said anout it all being different reactions to the same signal.

That signal is indeed what Indoctrination is.  There is no individual fine-tuning. It's just a broad-band signal that gradually weakens the subject. They react differently to it, but all arrive at the same spot. It's just the same signal, with different reactions to it. The mind reacts to it differently, weakening itself becasue everyone reacts in a different manner to the "Obey Us" command. Some fall quickly, some fall slowly. Some class it as whispers of insanity, others refuse to accept it. But there is no individual modification to the signal. It's the same signal every time.
All they do is decide on who to focus it on. THAT'S IT.

Well Iam not sure what your meaning by reference to the reapers is about.

Second, again your missing what is going on. If everyone is not indoctrinated then not eveyone would be on her side. There only on her side because there indoctrinated by the reapers.

Third, The signal is NEVER said that it WAS indoctrination. It IS said however by the(not in the same words) codex that the signal is just the bridge to the organics mind and not the actuall process. Its like a computer, you need a connection(signal) to the monitor from the CPU in order to use the computer.

The process for everyone is different...case in point... Do you know why Kenson is helping the reapers? She is helping them because she thinks that they are our salvation that is based in AWE of the reapers which is an emotion affected by indoctrination on the reapers behalf. They are manipulating her. They are NOT forcing her to do these things, they are making her mindset in a way that she CANT resist there influence.

It means that the Codex isn't infalible. It's based on information as it's discovered. And next to nothing regarding the Reapers was found till ME3. So the Codex isn't 100% accurate.

Second, that WAS my point. But you don't get that the Reapers didn't MAKE them follow Kenson. Indoctrination is a blund order to obey the Reapers in General. Kenson was the team leader beforehand, so they retained that mentality of her being leader for it all. Inculding this. The surrounding people affiliate with those that they themselves perceve as a leader by their own choice. Not Reaper direction. They followed Kenson as a leader because that's what they wanted to do. That's the mentality they retained from their "past life" of pre-indoctrination.

Remember, a subject loses higher brain functions as the signal replaces it with blind servitude. They are more usefull if they retain a measure of their old selves. Including interpertation of a command chain.
Kenson being leader was, again, the choice the humans made. NOT the Reapers.

Third, from Rana Thanoptos on Virmire, we learn the source of indoctrination is that it "Emmits a.... Signal. It's weak, but it's there."
That's a direct qoute. So YES. Indoctrination IS A SIGNAL. Comprised from ultrasonic and subsonic frequencies.
It's even in your precious Codex. ME2. Look it up.
And AGAIN, I point you to the DEAD REAPER. The signal is an automatic passive trait, just like the prothean sensor abality. It can be directed, but IT CAN"T BE CONTROLED OR SHUT OFF. IT'S AN INHERINT, PASSIVE TRAIT.

As for Kenson's reaction to it, I remind you that was HER SPICIFIC reaction to it. Everyone else felt fear and terror from it. Kenson was the only one that reacted calmly to it, so they flocked around her in a natural desire for stabilaty. The way a person interperts it is THE sole factor that decides who is "leader" among a group of indoctrinated, and who isn't. They INTERPERTED it differently. It's receved and interperted differently. The signal isn't modified from person to person. The people modify themselves in different reactions to the SAME UNCHANGED SIGNAL.

Modifié par silverexile17s, 20 janvier 2013 - 03:33 .

[silverexile17s]

ziyon conqueror wrote...

Because millions of years of gathering information gives it a god-complex/superiority complex, making it think that it knows better than anyone. But that just a synthetic point-of view. What about the organics'? Our opinion should matter

Not to it. It thinks that Emotional Reasoning is flawed, and based on hormonial reactions, and not the cold logic needed for the preservation of the galaxy.
It takes Shepard to prove him wrong. That's why at the end, it stands down and lets Shepard impliment a new Solution: Because it now achnolodges that Shepards Emotional Reasoning Logic bested his cold logic at the end of the story, and submits to Shepards decision.

[silverexile17s]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

in addition.

Put it this way the catalyst could believe will happen because a
synthetic race have wiped out organic races before (may have happened
many times and even taken some to the brink of extinction in some,
examples we do not know of during the cycles)

This statement consists entirely of logical fallacies.
Catalyst beliveing something to be true doesn't mean that it is true.
This is appeal to authority.
Synthetic race wiped out some organic race doesn't mean that all synthetics will wipe out their creators, or that synthetics will wipe out all organics.
This is faulty generalization.

even in ME3 this is shown
to be the case dependant on whos playthrough using as reference in which
Quarians are wiped out by the synthetic Geth, in many cycles it would
seem that there has been conflict between sythetics and organics and it
might be the case of which we do not know if true or not could be all
cycles experienced by the Catalyst. The reality is your calling his
logic a fallacy when you do not have as much data and evidence as he
might.

If there was conflict of organics and synthetics, or several conflicts, it doesn't mean that there is always conflict between synthetics and organics.
And again appeal to authority. If Catalyst says that something is true, it doesn't mean that it is true.
Anyway, to disprove absolute statements like those of Catalyst, you need only one case of the opposite.

You really do not understand logic. There are many forms and where your failure to grasp this has left you at a disadvantage. Your arguing against something you do not understand. Subjective logic is like any other form of logic only it allows for variation in the conclusion. It does not require certainty only that it is likely based on the premises used to form the logical process with some room for potential error.

Hehe.
And you using that to prove absolute statements.
This is exactly what it is - appeal to probability.
You are saying that there is a probability(unknown) that Catalyst is right - therefore he is right.

I have never said I think he is right, I said he thinks he is right. He is using logic, just it seems not the same form of logic you choose to, given you think I am using inductive when I am not. Who is to say he is using inductive too. In subjective logic the conclusion is still true even though allows room for error or variation.

That is the complete truth. _Maxster is using Emotional Reasoning Logic, which involves useing intuition and feelings in addition with logic
The Catalyst uses Cold, Ruthless Calculus Logic, which is souly numbers, variables and probabilatys alone.
The Catalyst isn't wrong. You are just using the wrong logic. The logic you use isn't the same as that of a computer. You need to see everything in cold numbers.
The point is, the Catalyst's logic isn't unsound. It's cold numbers.