305 réponses à ce sujet

[GreyLycanTrope]

Yate wrote...

finally someone gets it

really guys, what did you expect it to do?

it's an emotionless friggin AI

and you want to HAHA I WIN and make it go NOOOO

grow up

ME3 established pretty clearly that AI can have emotions actually.

Legion feels shame, EDI experiances love, Glow boy gets anrgy when you shoot him

If it was truly detatched it wouldn't bother with a solution it said was "proven" to no longer to work.

Know what we call a solution that's been proven not to work? Not a solution.

Keep on Yatin'

[Dragoonlordz]

Its like IF, ELSE, THEN type situation.

1. IF organics created synthetics
2. THEN go to line 4
3. ELSE go to line 7
4. IF synthetics and organics conflict in cycle
5. THEN go to line 9
6. ELSE go to line 7
7. WAIT 100 years
8. Go to line 1
9. CULL galaxy
10. Go to line 1

Others think it's more...

1. WAIT 50,000 years
2. CULL galaxy
3. Go to line 1

There is no line for caring what Shepard thinks of it's solution even though mine is uber simple version his even though more complex also has no such line. The crucible added some more IF statements allowing new outcomes but even crucible did not add a line about caring what Shepard thinks of the solutions. You can pick one or pick none in which cycle continues aka goes back to line 1.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 19 janvier 2013 - 03:54 .

[GreyLycanTrope]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Its like IF, ELSE, THEN type situation.

1. IF organics created synthetics
2. THEN go to line 4
3. ELSE go to line 7
4. IF synthetics and organics conflict in cycle
5. THEN go to line 9
6. ELSE go to line 7
7. WAIT 100 years
8. Go to line 1
9. CULL galaxy
10. Go to line 1

Others think it's more...

1. WAIT 50,000 years
2. CULL galaxy
3. Go to line 1

There is no line for caring what Shepard thinks of it's solution.

It's more that it should care. It enacted the cycles specifically because it's other solutions weren't good enough, now it admits to the cycles not being good enough, given it's been established how this thing operates, it shouldn't be trying a clearly ineffective method. It should go back to the drawing board and try to implement the new solutions now that it knows they're possible. By it's own assessment synthesis is inevitable, so it'll happen even if Shep doesn't want to play ball right now. Let it happen on it's own, maybe? But no that would make too much sense.

Modifié par Greylycantrope, 19 janvier 2013 - 03:55 .

[Meltemph]

I quite literally just noticed this response.

 

The biggest issue is noone knows if what he says is true as far as the outcome goes. It does make some sense however, like running across a road without looking sooner or later your going to get hit by a car. He cannot prove to you that will happen because the only proof would be to have let such happen in which in his thing trying to prevent is the extinction of all organic life in which case would of failed  and noone would be around for him to go "haha! told you so". His culling each cycle does not wipe out all organic life and he leaves the less evolved ones, while what he is trying to prevent would wipe out all organic life including the less evolved ones. It;s a doing somethign just incase situation and noone knows how it would really turn out but I can see logic behind acting to prevent something occuring rather than standing back and letting you get hit by that car for example.

His premise is insane.  There is no "logic" in his assumptions, only logic in him carrying out the desires of whoever was incharge of designing him(they should be fired).  I dont care if he believes his assumption is true, because it is an assanine assumption.  

The only constant in the "synthetic issue" with the Leviathan is that they enthralled and dominated over everything, and groomed them to their desire.  Their sociological impact on their thralls can not be ignored, and it would be incredibly foolish to do so.  

The only real conclusion we can come to, based on what little we know, is either to beleive an insane theory of the "destiny of man" or believe that the sociological conditions the Leviathan created set the catalyst to the conclusion that the reason for the problem in teh 1st place, was the Leviathan.  

The Leviathan at the time dominated the galaxy, and after their "thralls" wiped themselves out over and over, the catalyst came to teh conclusion that the Leviathan were the beginning cause for this(otherwise there would have been no point in reaping them and going against their creator/design).  Problem is, the stupidly designed syntehtic decided to apply this to all organics in the future, based on the actions of the Leviathan and all the problems they created.

To assume the Catalyst is right, because the Leviathan's thralls showed a propensity to create destructive synthetics, in no way proves the out-come.  If you truly believe the catalyst delusional assertions, the last thing you should do is pick anything other then refuse, because only his curernt plan will even make a dent in his assertion.

Modifié par Meltemph, 19 janvier 2013 - 03:56 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Meltemph wrote...

I quite literally just noticed this response.

 

The biggest issue is noone knows if what he says is true as far as the outcome goes. It does make some sense however, like running across a road without looking sooner or later your going to get hit by a car. He cannot prove to you that will happen because the only proof would be to have let such happen in which in his thing trying to prevent is the extinction of all organic life in which case would of failed  and noone would be around for him to go "haha! told you so". His culling each cycle does not wipe out all organic life and he leaves the less evolved ones, while what he is trying to prevent would wipe out all organic life including the less evolved ones. It;s a doing somethign just incase situation and noone knows how it would really turn out but I can see logic behind acting to prevent something occuring rather than standing back and letting you get hit by that car for example.

His premise is insane.  There is no "logic" in his assumptions, only logic in him carrying out the desires of whoever was incharge of designing him(they should be fired).  I dont care if he believes his assumption is true, because it is an assanine assumption.  

The only constant in the "synthetic issue" with the Leviathan is that they enthralled and dominated over everything, and groomed them to their desire.  Their sociological impact on their thralls can not be ignored, and it would be incredibly foolish to do so.  

The only real conclusion we can come to, based on what little we know, is either to beleive an insane theory of the "destiny of man" or believe that the sociological conditions the Leviathan created set the catalyst to the conclusion that the reason for the problem in teh 1st place, was the Leviathan.  

The Leviathan at the time dominated the galaxy, and after their "thralls" wiped themselves out over and over, the catalyst came to teh conclusion that the Leviathan were the beginning cause for this(otherwise there would have been no point in reaping them and going against their creator/design).  Problem is, the stupidly designed syntehtic decided to apply this to all organics in the future, based on the actions of the Leviathan and all the problems they created.

To assume the Catalyst is right, because the Leviathan's thralls showed a propensity to create destructive synthetics, in no way proves the out-come.  If you truly believe the catalyst delusional assertions, the last thing you should do is pick anything other then refuse, because only his curernt plan will even make a dent in his assertion.

His assumption as you call it is possible and not insane at all. Synthetics evolve and adapt and can be created faster than organics can be born, in a war with synthetics if it is not ended quickly organics could lose very easily. His assumption does not even have to rely on that even though that is a possiblity, he only has to assume conflicts will continue to happen and if even one of those conflicts should equal a loss for organics that would leave open the problem he wishes to prevent which is synthetics may purge all organic life from the galaxy not just those who are evolved enough to be a threat.

He using his current solution does not purge all life, he only culls those who are a threat to all organic life which is those with the ability and knowledge to create those synthetics and predisposition to start conflicts with them hence why he leaves the non evolved races alone. Organics if left to their own devices based on his experience will always create synthetics and in his experiences always conflict with them. Until a cycle occurs where this does not happen he has no intention of stopping with his cycles or until an alternative solution occurs which is what crucible offers and changes about him giving him more potential solutions that might work as well if not better than his own.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 19 janvier 2013 - 04:11 .

[Meltemph]

  

Synthetics evolve and adapt and can be created faster than organics can be born, in a war with synthetics if it is not ended quickly organics could lose very easily. His assumption does not even have to rely on that even though that is a possiblity, he only has to assume conflicts will continue to happen and if even one of those conflicts should equal a loss for organics that would leave open the problem he wishes to prevent which is synthetics may purge all organic life from the galaxy not just those who are evolved enough to be a threat. Organics if left to their own devices based on his experience will always create synthetics and in his experiences always conflict with them. Until a cycle occurs where this does not happen he has no intention of stopping with his cycles or until a better solution occurs which is what crucible offers and changes about him giving him more potential solutions that might work as well if not better than his own.

That is just a complete and utter guess/nonsense.  Yes, I can make wild assertions about any science too, but that doesnt mean because I have some doomsday scenario, in my head, in no way makes it true.  Your(or his) assumption that synthetics will decided to wipe out the galaxy of all organics is nothing but fear mongering of a particular science a particular group or person, or in this case thing, that one does not like or trust.  That line of thinking can be applies to anything, and to follow and give that line of thinking validity, is madness.

With scenario's like that being believed in we all may as well give up on just about all sciences, because someone can think of some plausible doomsday scenario.

Modifié par Meltemph, 19 janvier 2013 - 04:19 .

[Dragoonlordz]

That is just a complete and utter guess/nonsense a possibility which maybe an unlikely one, but possible.  Yes, I can make wild assertions about any science too, but that doesnt mean because I have some doomsday scenario, in my head, in no way makes it true an impossibility.  Your(or his) assumption that synthetics will might decided to wipe out the galaxy of all organics is nothing but fear mongering something that might occur (even if 1 in a billion chance) which is a chance the catalyst does not want to risk of a particular science a particular group or person, or in this case thing, that one does not like or trust.  That line of thinking can be applies to anything, and to follow and give that line of thinking validity, is madness not closing your mind to possibilities.

With scenario's like that being believed in we all I may as well give up on just about all sciences, because someone can think of some plausible doomsday scenario.

I edited your one to be more inline with what should of been (imho).

As for the last sentence, even you admit it is possible. It is that possibility based on what the catalyst has observed for longer than you could even imagine that has made it believe it is more possible than you (within your limited lifetime and experience) believe it to be within that universe.

I can't help but think your hatred of this line of thought is clouded by real world disdain for such idiologies and has not really much basis on this fictional universe the catalyst is part of and has observed for many hundreds of thousands of years. I might be wrong but it is coming across that way to me because of how aggressive your being towards the real possibility that exists within the ME universe.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 19 janvier 2013 - 07:32 .

[Indy_S]

There is a 1 in 3 chance that the galaxy will stop existing every second. We have just been very lucky so far. I shall invent a monstrosity that will ensure that, should we ever run out of luck, it won't stop existing. It's genius.

That feels like the line of logic you're trying to argue here, Dragoonlordz. An arbitrary chance that an arbitrary but negative action will happen and there's someone trying to solve this theoretical problem that may not even be possible.

Modifié par Indy_S, 19 janvier 2013 - 07:40 .

[Meltemph]

As for the last sentence, even you admit it is possible. It is that possibility based on what the catalyst has observed for longer than you could even imagine that has made it believe it is more possible than you (within your limited lifetime and experience) believe it to be within that universe.

I can't help but think your hatred of this line of thought is clouded by real world disdain for such idiologies and has not really much basis on this fictional universe the catalyst is part of and has observed for many hundreds of thousands of years. I might be wrong but it is coming across that way to me because of how aggressive your being towards the real possibility that exists within the ME universe.

No, that isnt how it works, and my post works just fine as is.  Just becasue something is "irrefutable" doesn't give it validity, which is what you are saying(God exists because I believe he does, he may vary well exists, which is fine for religion, but not something like this). Just because the kid says it will happen, when it hasn't happened, no matter his "experience" doesn't mean it will happen.

It is quite easy to hold an irrefutable and unprovable stance on something, because all you have to is say "I believe".

You are applying your personal bias to give his claim more validity. However, the only examples we are given is the cycles of the Leviathan, everything else is just "conflict(really doesnt matter what kind, in terms of his conclusion)", but that is unavoidable. Hell, even the geth you could argue are the fault of the Leviathan, since Sovereign even admitted that the technology left over was to purposely put the races on the technological path they desired.

"There is a plausible chance something may happen, therefore it will happen" is a horrendous argument and one that is for either the lazy, ignorant, or misinformed. Conclusions are not made from what we can dream up, but what is. The kid is no more "right" then people believing the LHC is going to create a black hole.

He is a construct of circumstances, mistakes, and a lack of common sense, and you are ignoring this(or at least ignoring it enough to give his "plausibility" a real validity to being "law") because he has lived a long time.

And the only reason I sound aggressive, is because there isn't a whole lot of angles a person can come at someone taking a stance such as this, without something that sounds condescending. Either way, the assumption is baseless in its totality, which again is fine, it is a flawed creation of the Leviathans.

Modifié par Meltemph, 19 janvier 2013 - 07:57 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Indy_S wrote...

There is a 1 in 3 chance that the galaxy will stop existing every second. We have just been very lucky so far. I shall invent a monstrosity that will ensure that, should we ever run out of luck, it won't stop existing. It's genius.

That feels like the line of logic you're trying to argue here, Dragoonlordz. An arbitrary chance that an arbitrary but negative action will happen and there's someone trying to solve this theoretical problem that may not even be possible.

I'm telling you what it might believe based on it's existance through thousands of years it has been around and witnessed. Also it has to be impossible for it to be classed as not possible but it is possible even if unlikely so that does not apply.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 19 janvier 2013 - 08:02 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Meltemph wrote...

As for the last sentence, even you admit it is possible. It is that possibility based on what the catalyst has observed for longer than you could even imagine that has made it believe it is more possible than you (within your limited lifetime and experience) believe it to be within that universe.

I can't help but think your hatred of this line of thought is clouded by real world disdain for such idiologies and has not really much basis on this fictional universe the catalyst is part of and has observed for many hundreds of thousands of years. I might be wrong but it is coming across that way to me because of how aggressive your being towards the real possibility that exists within the ME universe.

No, that isnt how it works, and my post works just fine as is.  Just becasue something is "irrefutable" doesn't give it validity, which is what you are saying(God exists because I believe he does, he may vary well exists, which is fine for religion, but not something like this). Just because the kid says it will happen, when it hasn't happened, no matter his "experience" doesn't mean it will happen.

It is quite easy to hold an irrefutable and unprovable stance on something, because all you have to is say "I believe".

You are applying your personal basis to give his claim more validity. However, the only examples we are given is the cycles of the Leviathan, everything else is just "conflict(really doesnt matter what kind, in terms of his conclusion)", but that is unavoidable. Hell, even the geth you could argue are the fault of the Leviathan, since Sovereign even admitted that the technology left over was to purposely put the races on the technological path they desired.

"There is a plausible chance something may happen, therefore it will happen" is a horrendous argument and one that is for either the lazy, ignorant, or misinformed. Conclusions are not made from what we can dream up, but what is. The kid is no more "right" then people believing the LHC is going to create a block hole.

He is a construct of circumstances, mistakes, and a lack of common sense, and you are ignoring this(or at least ignoring it enough to give his "plausibility" a real validity to being "law") because he has lived a long time.

And the only reason I sound aggressive, is because there isn't a whole lot of angles a person can come at someone taking a stance such as this, without something that sounds condescending. Either way, the assumption is baseless in its totality, which again is fine, it is a flawed creation of the Leviathans.

You are trying to argue from a very limited framework of evidence to contradict it's experience. Just because your angry that you admit you have very few options in the way of refuting his claims does not invalidate that in the universe he has been a part of longer than you can imagine might have a higher possibility of occuring than you realise. You keep saying will happen, it believes sooner or later it will. Noone can say it won't but it believes it will and that is why is following prevention rather than cure. There is no cure if it did ever happen. My belief is it might happen, not that it will but it might. It's belief is it will eventually happen if did nothing.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 19 janvier 2013 - 08:18 .

[Maxster_]

There was no "problem" to begin with.
And Catalyst's "solution" is the problem, which he pretends he fixes.
Why there is no problem?
Simple - premise about organics always creating synthetics is false.
And premise about synthetics always rebelling against organics also false.
As is premise about synthetics always wiping out organics.

Organics destroying organics is somehow not a problem, but synthetics almost destroying organics suddenly is.
That is hypocrisy.

Assuming that there is a problem - Catalyst's "solution" is not a solution even from his pov.
So, we have an assumption "without us synthetics will always destroy organics".
This is appeal to probability, a logical fallacy designed to justify everything.
This is of course false, and used by hypocrities or madmen.
Meaning that Catalyst is crazy or lying or both.

In broken logic of OP, this actually meaning
"Advanced organic species will create synthetic life and eventually come
into a conflict with those synthetics that will lead to the organic
species' extinction."
Applying reapers "solution" to this, we now have
"Advanced organic species will create synthetic life and then inevitably comes reapers, who obliterates those organics."

Of, course, in both situations, organics are completely destroyed, extinct. But who cares?

Actually, reapers are far more effective at destroying organics, than any synthetics. They destroy not only those, who created synthetics, but also those who never created synthetics.
And of course those, who cannot be "preserved", meaning that reapers "solution" is not a solution even from their point of view.
Meaning that Catalyst is crazy, or lying, or both.

Therefore, no matter how you turn this nonsensical mumbling, it is not working solution for a non-existent problem.
Or, reapers are the problem they pretend they fix.

As for why Catalyst is not surrendering - because he finds no reason to. War is lost, ME3 is a story of futility, of an unconditional surrender to an insane enemy's whim.

[Dragoonlordz]

Maxster_ wrote...

There was no "problem" to begin with.
And Catalyst's "solution" is the problem, which he pretends he fixes.
Why there is no problem?

Simple - premise about organics always creating synthetics is false.
And premise about synthetics always rebelling against organics also false.
As is premise about synthetics always wiping out organics.

You have zero proof that not every cycle created synthetics, so you cannot say it is false.
You have zero proof that there was any cycle where synthetic race created did not conflict with organics, so you cannot say it is false.

The premise about synthetics wiping out organics is a conclusion it reached based on it experiences and is already being debated with no proof it is wrong and no proof it is right. Neither you or I have hundreds of thousands of years worth of knowledge spent in the ME universe across many cycles, it does theoretically.

There is a difference between wiping out all organics life or what catalyst does which is cull both organic and synthetic life each cycle. Leaving all races that are not in a position to be what it considers a threat to the existance of all organic life remaining. What is false is your description when you continue to keep claiming it wipes out all life when it never does.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 19 janvier 2013 - 08:17 .

[Meltemph]

 You are trying to argue from a very limited framework of evidence to contradict it's experience. Just because your angry that you admit you have very few options in the way of refuting his claims does not invalidate that in the universe he has been a part of longer than you can imagine might have a higher possibility of occuring than you realise. You keep saying will happen, it believes sooner or later it will. Noone can say it won't but but it believes it will and that is why is following prevention rather than cure. There is no cure if it did ever happen. My belief is it might happen, not that it will but it might. It's belief is it will eventually happen if did nothing.

We dont have a limited framework of evidence... The Leviathan DLC explained quite well how it came to its conclusion, and at the end killed his creators, and since then has been carrying on with his purpose, based on the orginal programing of the Leviathan.  You are making a massive assumption that he stopped reaping(after the Leviathan were wipedout, almost) for periods of time and tried other things to prove his theory.

Essentially you are arguing that synthetics will evetnually rise up aganst organic overloards and kill their creators, then they will decide not to stop and keep killing(ignoring that this is with the assumption that only 1 type/mentality of AI exists in the galaxy at the same time).  

The thing that decided that synthetics will eventually wipe out all organics, is a synthetic that was tasked with preventing the Leviathans thralls from wiping eachother out(in a very senseless way of programming, apaprently); under this race that was enslaving the galaxy at the time.  The catalyst came to the conclusion that synthetics will wipe out all organics(while this hasnt come close to happening, to the point where the Leviathan were stupid enough to make something like this) based on what?  The races under the Leviathan were always dying by their creations.

So the Leviathan created a synthetic race to prevent their thralls from killing themselves with synthetics.  The catalyst comes to the conclusion that eventually(without fail) there will be a synehtic that decides to wipe out all organics, and that him, specifcally, is the exception to the rule, that he made up.  

This isnt like evolution, it isnt like there is evidence he can fall back on, other then, "there is conflict".  You are also assuming that this whole time he was trying to find a different solution to what he was doing(After he reaped the Leviathan).   I'm honestly not sure what you are basing his "vast" experience on.  He came to this conclusion while the galaxy was under the rule of the Leviathan and there has been no indication in the game that he tried different methods after this point.  

The only thing I can think of is, you want his conclusions to be true(in-game). Because there is no justifiable reason as to why you think the catalyst is introspective. 

Modifié par Meltemph, 19 janvier 2013 - 08:28 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Meltemph wrote...

 You are trying to argue from a very limited framework of evidence to contradict it's experience. Just because your angry that you admit you have very few options in the way of refuting his claims does not invalidate that in the universe he has been a part of longer than you can imagine might have a higher possibility of occuring than you realise. You keep saying will happen, it believes sooner or later it will. Noone can say it won't but but it believes it will and that is why is following prevention rather than cure. There is no cure if it did ever happen. My belief is it might happen, not that it will but it might. It's belief is it will eventually happen if did nothing.

We dont have a limited framework of evidence... The Leviathan DLC explained quite well how it came to its conclusion, and at the end killed his creators, and since then has been carrying on with his purpose, based on the orginal programing of the Leviathan.  You are making a massive assumption that he stopped reaping(after the Leviathan were wipedout, almost) for periods of time and tried other things to prove his theory.

Essentially you are arguing that synthetics will evetnually rise up aganst organic overloards and kill their creators, then they will decide not to stop and keep killing(ignoring that this is with the assumption that only 1 type/mentality of AI exists in the galaxy at the same time).  

The thing that decided that synthetics will eventually wipe out all organics, is a synthetic that was tasked with preventing the Leviathans thralls from wiping eachother out(in a very senseless way of programming, apaprently); under this race that was enslaving the galaxy at the time.  The catalyst came to the conclusion that synthetics will wipe out all organics(while this hasnt come close to happening, to the point where the Leviathan were stupid enough to make something like this) based on what?  The races under the Leviathan were always dying by their creations.

So the Leviathan created a synthetic race to prevent their thralls from killing themselves with synthetics.  The catalyst comes to the conclusion that eventually(without fail) there will be a synehtic that decides to wipe out all organics, and that him, specifcally, is the exception to the rule, that he made up.  

This isnt like evolution, it isnt like there is evedence he can fall back on, other then, "there is conflict".  You are also assuming that this whole time he was trying to find a different solution to what he was doing(After he reaped the Leviathan).   I'm honestly not sure what you are basing his "vast" experience on.  He came to this conclusion while the galaxy was under the rule of the Leviathan and there has been no indication in the game that he tried different methods after this point.  

The only thing I can think of is, you want his conclusions to be true(in-game). Because there is no justifiable reason as to why you think the catalyst is introspective. 

No, I am assuming that it through the cycles never saw a reason to stop which is different to assuming to it came to it's solution during the cycles. It wasn't until this cycle it saw a reason why it was no longer a solution which is what it tells you too.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 19 janvier 2013 - 08:29 .

[Maxster_]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

There was no "problem" to begin with.
And Catalyst's "solution" is the problem, which he pretends he fixes.
Why there is no problem?

Simple - premise about organics always creating synthetics is false.
And premise about synthetics always rebelling against organics also false.
As is premise about synthetics always wiping out organics.

You have zero proof tjhat not every cycle created synthetics, so you cannot say it is false.

Cycle? So, some race in some cycle created synthetics, and other races of that cycle didn't - but they all is obliterated by reapers, applying their "solution", without which only one race would be obliterated.
Riiiight

Turians never created synthetics, Salarians never created synthetics, Asari never created synthetics, Batarians, Krogans, Rachni, etc.
But they all must be eradicated for a something they never did. Because reasons.
That is enough evidence about all 3 statements.

Is you who have no proof. Well, Catalyst actually, not some his minor minion like you.

You have zero proof that there was any cycle where synthetic race created did not conflict with organics, so you cannot say it is false.

There is no evidence about synthetics destroying organics, without reapers influence.
In protheans cycle synthetics were beaten before reapers helped them. And Zha'til never being a threat at all. Not they were hostile before reapers.
In Shepard's cycle, geth didn't destroyed quarians, and have no intent to go kill everyone else, of course, before reapers. And even then, only part of geth participated.

The only evidence we have, that synthesised abomination wiping out everyone, every cycle.
But they are not exactly synthetics.

The premise about synthetics wiping out organics is a conclusion it reached based on it experiences and is already being debated with no proof it is wrong and no proof it is right. Neither you or I have hundreds of thousands of years worth of knowledge spend in the ME universe across many cycles, it does theoretically.

This premise is false, it is not based on evidence.
It is a logical fallacy, which can be used to justify anything, any crime, any horrible deed.

There is a difference between wiping out all organics life or what catalyst does which is cull both organic and synthetic life each cycle. Leaving all races that are not in a position to be what it considers a threat to the existance of all organic life. The only thing that is false is your description when you continue to keep claiming it wipes out all life when it never does.

Oh, now suddenly synthetics is a threat to all organic life?
And organics also?
How funny.
You have zero evidence of that.
Destruction of all life never happened.

People who uses such justification either hypocrites or madmen

Modifié par Maxster_, 19 janvier 2013 - 08:30 .

[Meltemph]

 

No, I am assuming that it through the cycles never saw a reason to stop which is different to assuming to it came to it's solution during the cycles. It wasn't until this cycle it saw a reason why it was no longer a solution which is what it tells you too.

But that is only becuase we attached a big ball on his head.  His willingness to compitulate at the end hour doesnt prove that he was introspective after he started reaping the galaxy, it only proves that the only fix was to change/fix/adjust his programing.

Modifié par Meltemph, 19 janvier 2013 - 08:33 .

[Dragoonlordz]

Maxster_ wrote...

Dragoonlordz wrote...

You have zero proof tjhat not every cycle created synthetics, so you cannot say it is false.

Cycle? So, some race in some cycle created synthetics, and other races of that cycle didn't - but they all is obliterated by reapers, applying their "solution", without which only one race would be obliterated.
Riiiight

Turians never created synthetics, Salarians never created synthetics, Asari never created synthetics, Batarians, Krogans, Rachni, etc.
But they all must be eradicated for a something they never did. Because reasons.
That is enough evidence about all 3 statements.

Is you who have no proof. Well, Catalyst actually, not some his minor minion like you.

You have zero proof that there was any cycle where synthetic race created did not conflict with organics, so you cannot say it is false.

There is no evidence about synthetics destroying organics, without reapers influence.
In protheans cycle synthetics were beaten before reapers helped them. And Zha'til never being a threat at all. Not they were hostile before reapers.
In Shepard's cycle, geth didn't destroyed quarians, and have no intent to go kill everyone else, of course, before reapers. And even then, only part of geth participated.

The only evidence we have, that synthesised abomination wiping out everyone, every cycle.
But they are not exactly synthetics.

The premise about synthetics wiping out organics is a conclusion it reached based on it experiences and is already being debated with no proof it is wrong and no proof it is right. Neither you or I have hundreds of thousands of years worth of knowledge spend in the ME universe across many cycles, it does theoretically.

This premise is false, it is not based on evidence.
It is a logical fallacy, which can be used to justify anything, any crime, any horrible deed.

There is a difference between wiping out all organics life or what catalyst does which is cull both organic and synthetic life each cycle. Leaving all races that are not in a position to be what it considers a threat to the existance of all organic life. The only thing that is false is your description when you continue to keep claiming it wipes out all life when it never does.

Oh, now suddenly synthetics is a threat to all organic life?
And organics also?
How funny.
You have zero evidence of that.
Destruction of all life never happened.

People who uses such justification either hypocrites or madmen

As much as your trying to bait me with passive agressive mocking, it won't work.

Firstly once technology is shown to exist any race evolved enough can replicate it very easily. That is why all races that have reached such a level to make use of such technology are culled why all those which cannot or are not that evolved are left alone.

Secondly the Geth were created without direct reaper influence as example. It was not created with Reaper technology. AI is created without influence in most SciFi universe which has AI present, their involvement or in this case lack of it is the conflict between the two it wishes to stop because it fears that one of those conflicts could result in the outcome it mentioned.

In the current cycle the Geth can indeed kill all the Quarians depending on who you side with in that conflict and it is shown the Quarians went back to fight with them which could lead to their destruction as a race regardless of your involvement (in fact my Shepard told them not to do so but that did not stop them). Races commiting suicide by way of never being able to leave synthetics alone is equally as bad as synthetics hunting them down themselves. Both result in the potential destruction of races of organics.

My premise was not false, you just don't like it. There is a difference.

Your last comment requires no reply, that comment by you is a pretty stupid comment to make.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 19 janvier 2013 - 09:02 .

[Indy_S]

Dragoonlordz wrote...

Maxster_ wrote...

There was no "problem" to begin with.
And Catalyst's "solution" is the problem, which he pretends he fixes.
Why there is no problem?

Simple - premise about organics always creating synthetics is false.
And premise about synthetics always rebelling against organics also false.
As is premise about synthetics always wiping out organics.

You have zero proof that not every cycle created synthetics, so you cannot say it is false.
You have zero proof that there was any cycle where synthetic race created did not conflict with organics, so you cannot say it is false.

The premise about synthetics wiping out organics is a conclusion it reached based on it experiences and is already being debated with no proof it is wrong and no proof it is right. Neither you or I have hundreds of thousands of years worth of knowledge spent in the ME universe across many cycles, it does theoretically.

There is a difference between wiping out all organics life or what catalyst does which is cull both organic and synthetic life each cycle. Leaving all races that are not in a position to be what it considers a threat to the existance of all organic life remaining. What is false is your description when you continue to keep claiming it wipes out all life when it never does.

Ooh, ooh, ooh. It mightn't be a cycle but it was fairly independant of the cycle it was in so I'll offer an example of a race that doesn't even consider creating synthetics: the Rachni. They've adapted to everything biologically, even space travel. It's a part of the setting that the Rachni are the example of the 'extreme organic' society that doesn't even think about making tools.

Synthetics wiping out all organic life is a strange conclusion. There is nothing to suggest that every single synthetic race wouldn't stop at the Catalyst's point, just wiping out the space-faring races. It doesn't have experience of the synthetics winning so utterly as to be galacitcally dominating aside from itself. So its conclusion is based on lesser scales.

[Dragoonlordz]

Meltemph wrote...

No, I am assuming that it through the cycles never saw a reason to stop which is different to assuming to it came to it's solution during the cycles. It wasn't until this cycle it saw a reason why it was no longer a solution which is what it tells you too.

But that is only becuase we attached a big ball on his head.  His willingness to compitulate at the end hour doesnt prove that he was introspective after he started reaping the galaxy, it only proves that the only fix was to change/fix/adjust his programing.

I do not have to prove he was introspective, I just realise there is no proof that he was not.

The rest is personal belief and nothing more on both sides.

[Meltemph]

I do not have to prove he was introspective, I just realise there is no proof that he was not.

The rest is personal belief and nothing more on both sides.

So you are basing the idea that he was introspective on...the fact that there was no proof he wasn't? So instead of just taking the information we have, you would rather assume the whole time he was looking for a better solution, essentially creating a narrative in your head? So you do want him to be right, in game... I'm not sure why you didn't just say that. We could have avoided all of this.

[Dragoonlordz]

Meltemph wrote...

I do not have to prove he was introspective, I just realise there is no proof that he was not.

The rest is personal belief and nothing more on both sides.

So you are basing the idea that he was introspective on...the fact that there was no proof he wasn't? So instead of just taking the information we have, you would rather assume the whole time he was looking for a better solution, essentially creating a narrative in your head? So you do want him to be right, in game... I'm not sure why you didn't just say that. We could have avoided all of this.

As said earlier, what you know is that he never stopped the cycles before this cycle. Whether or not you believe it is because he lacks the ability to be introspective or whether believe it is because from what he has experienced he saw no reason to change his beliefs are both headcanon. Neither is proven to be the case but you could assume either might be true. I believe it believes it is right, I believe it is a flawed construct therefore does not require 100% probability for it to validate it's course of action it only requires the probability to exist. I believe it believes that it is preventing that probability from becomming a possible reality.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 19 janvier 2013 - 09:04 .

[silverexile17s]

Meltemph wrote...

  

Synthetics evolve and adapt and can be created faster than organics can be born, in a war with synthetics if it is not ended quickly organics could lose very easily. His assumption does not even have to rely on that even though that is a possiblity, he only has to assume conflicts will continue to happen and if even one of those conflicts should equal a loss for organics that would leave open the problem he wishes to prevent which is synthetics may purge all organic life from the galaxy not just those who are evolved enough to be a threat. Organics if left to their own devices based on his experience will always create synthetics and in his experiences always conflict with them. Until a cycle occurs where this does not happen he has no intention of stopping with his cycles or until a better solution occurs which is what crucible offers and changes about him giving him more potential solutions that might work as well if not better than his own.

That is just a complete and utter guess/nonsense.  Yes, I can make wild assertions about any science too, but that doesnt mean because I have some doomsday scenario, in my head, in no way makes it true.  Your(or his) assumption that synthetics will decided to wipe out the galaxy of all organics is nothing but fear mongering of a particular science a particular group or person, or in this case thing, that one does not like or trust.  That line of thinking can be applies to anything, and to follow and give that line of thinking validity, is madness.

With scenario's like that being believed in we all may as well give up on just about all sciences, because someone can think of some plausible doomsday scenario.

This same logic was used in Terminator. As well as I, Robot. They certinly reproduced freaking faster then we could, and near-overran humans. This kind of thing also is touched upon in Star Trek, Deus Ex, and Stargate, and, perhaps the most notibly, Battlestar Galactica.  In fact, google "Cybernetic Revolt wiki," and you'll see a muntitude of reasons that show uprisings of synthetics isn't as far fetched as you think, to be renditioned on, touched upon, and re-told so many times.

[Indy_S]

But silverexile, the Jetsons proves we can live peacefully with the robots!

[Meltemph]

As said earlier, what you know is that he never stopped the cycles before this cycle. Whether or not you believe it is because he lacks the ability to be introspective or whether believe it is because from what he has experienced he saw no reason to change his beliefs are both headcanon. Neither is proven to be the case but you could assume either might be true.

The lack of information here though, isnt me assuming one way or the other.  Since I dont know for a fact, whether he is introspective or not, about his plan, I'm not going to base my choice off the unknown, and instead base it on the merits of what it is. 

That was the source of my issue and confusion with your arguement.  You seemed to imply that the catalyst was logical because; the assertions and the action itself were logical in a normal sense(in game or not).  You didnt qualify it as, that was how you viewed and wanted the narrative of the catalyst to go, so I thought you were speaking for the intent of the catalyst(as written) and not just your personal preference on wanting it to be fact.