79 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

Isn't the lore justification that they make you better at spotting the gold, or something? Or am I getting that from some other game?

[Fast Jimmy]

^

Ah. That would make sense for the gold, I suppose. But probably still not for the equipment.

[Teddie Sage]

I personally like them. If you don't want to use them, it's up to you. I always considered most elements from this franchise to be optional.

[nightscrawl]

Wulfram wrote...

It's not fun to feel like you're tieing your hands behind your back to enjoy the game. That's why the "just don't use it" type arguments don't work.

You can just as easily say that about ANY feature someone doesn't like.

A: I don't think they should add such overpowered gear to DLC.
B: You don't have to use it.
A: But I feel as if I'm gimping myself if I don't use it.

A: The availability of respec potions cheapens your choices while leveling and lets you be careless when putting in points.
B: You don't have to use it.
A: But I feel as if I'm gimping myself if I don't use it, especially on companions.


The reality is that no, you don't have to use it. It is a psychological mechanism that makes us feel compelled to do one thing or another. I'm sure there are people who happily ignore the availability of fortune runes, DLC gear, and respec potions, while there are others that feel compelled to use them.

I feel compelled to loot everything, pick every lock, and disarm every trap, but I don't blame Bioware for that, don't ask for those things to be removed, and don't expect others to feel the same way about them. Ultimately, it is about personal responsibility. Bioware is not responsible if you feel compelled to use the things they provide for fear of gimping yourself.

People go on and on about choices. Well one important choice is in HOW you play the game. You can choose to focus on money and use runes of fortune, or you can use stat runes instead. You pick which is more important to you. Someone else might make the opposite choice. The important thing is that the choice was there to make, and there is more variety in gameplay for everyone.


I happen to think that fortune runes and +XP items are kind of lame, so I don't use them. At one point I did consider following this guide, but I found that I didn't really care all that much, so I never bothered.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 19 janvier 2013 - 05:03 .

[Herr Uhl]

nightscrawl wrote...

The reality is that no, you don't have to use it. It is a psychological mechanism that makes us feel compelled to do one thing or another. I'm sure there are people who happily ignore the availability of fortune runes, DLC gear, and respec potions, while there are others that feel compelled to use them.

I feel compelled to loot everything, pick every lock, and disarm every trap, but I don't blame Bioware for that, don't ask for those things to be removed, and don't expect others to feel the same way about them. Ultimately, it is about personal responsibility. Bioware is not responsible if you feel compelled to use the things they provide for fear of gimping yourself.

People go on and on about choices. Well one important choice is in HOW you play the game. You can choose to focus on money and use runes of fortune, or you can use stat runes instead. You pick which is more important to you. Someone else might make the opposite choice. The important thing is that the choice was there to make, and there is more variety in gameplay for everyone.

What is the point of even trying to make a game balanced then? You can just expect the player to make the game balanced by artificially adding constraints on themselves.

[nightscrawl]

Herr Uhl wrote...

What is the point of even trying to make a game balanced then? You can just expect the player to make the game balanced by artificially adding constraints on themselves.

People put artificial limits on themselves all the time. Maybe someone tries to play without dying once, even though there is no penalty for dying. Perhaps someone tries to have an all warrior, all mage, or all rogue party, which might not be ideal for some fights. Go an entire game without drinking a single potion. There is a World of Warcraft player who did a "pacifist" and leveled without killing anything.

Why do people do these things, even if it hinders "normal" game play? To see if they can, to test themselves.

Why does someone play on Nightmare instead of Casual? Casual is easier right? Shouldn't the goal be to win the game? You can do that most efficiently on Casual. So why do people play on Nightmare even if they don't have to? For the challenge!

Filament wrote...

Respec potions are different IMO since they don't really affect the fundamental balance of the game. Higher levels or better gear from more money do. They can't just carelessly include any item regardless of balance just because you don't have to use it.

I didn't pull those things out of thin air, those are actually arguments I've seen on the forums.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 19 janvier 2013 - 05:18 .

[Wulfram]

nightscrawl wrote...

You can just as easily say that about ANY feature someone doesn't like.

Any feature that gives a power boost and is defended by the stupid "just don't use it" argument, yes.

It's not my job as a player to decide that this feature is stupid and will hurt my game by using it.  It's the game designers job to realise that a feature is stupid and will hurt the game if used and therefore not include it.

[Herr Uhl]

nightscrawl wrote...

People put artificial limits on themselves all the time. Maybe someone tries to play without dying once, even though there is no penalty for dying. Perhaps someone tries to have an all warrior, all mage, or all rogue party, which might not be ideal for some fights. Go an entire game without drinking a single potion. There is a World of Warcraft player who did a "pacifist" and leveled without killing anything.

Why do people do these things, even if it hinders "normal" game play? To see if they can, to test themselves.

This is hardly the norm and you know it. Having to play a game with a hand tied behind your back for any challenge makes it a badly designed game, if the intention is to provide a challenge.

Why does someone play on Nightmare instead of Casual? Casual is easier right? Shouldn't the goal be to win the game? You can do that most efficiently on Casual. So why do people play on Nightmare even if they don't have to? For the challenge!

Do you even know the purpose of difficulty levels? They're balanced for a specific challenge level. Each of these steps should be adequately balanced for the level of difficulty. If you include a lot of overpowered items, every level is casual unless you put arbitrary restraints on yourself.

Adding overpowered items is just plain bad game design, and it shouldn't be excused by "you don't have to use it".

[XX-Pyro]

Those runes aren't overpowered though. They don't even make you that much more rich.

[Sutekh]

XX-Pyro wrote...

Those runes aren't overpowered though. They don't even make you that much more rich.

I was going to ask if anyone has an accurate idea of the actual difference. I've got playthroughs where I use them and some where I didn't and haven't noticed anything drastic. I ended up not using them at all anymore just because of that.

[addiction21]

Wulfram wrote...

It's not fun to feel like you're tieing your hands behind your back to enjoy the game. That's why the "just don't use it" type arguments don't work.

So instead of willfully tying your own hands to enjoy the game you want EVERYONE to have their hands tied so YOU can enjoy the game.

Its odd how one of the catchphrases for the BSN can be "more options more everything the more the better" with a little postscript that says "except the ones I do not like."

Wulfram wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

You can just as easily say that about ANY feature someone doesn't like.

Any feature that gives a power boost and is defended by the stupid "just don't use it" argument, yes.

It's not my job as a player to decide that this feature is stupid and will hurt my game by using it.  It's the game designers job to realise that a feature is stupid and will hurt the game if used and therefore not include it.

There is no power boost and clearly they did not think it is stupid. Therefore you can accept its in game and use it or not as you wish.

This idea that the game needs to be balanced for all players of all types and skill levels is silly or is this just having it balanced to cater to your specific type and skills? Still just as silly.

Herr Uhl wrote...

Adding overpowered items is just plain bad game design, and it shouldn't be excused by "you don't have to use it".

As far as I am aware the overpowered weapons and such exist in their own DLC packs separate to the game. Not even the stuff I found in MoTA or Legacy were overpowered. Maybe end game they are slightly better then what was there but not breaking. Not really close to the DLC packed items.

If these type of runes are to be in DA3 I'd rather that option exists for those that want to use them instead of it being taken away for such trivial reasons.

By the way I cant think of anytime I ever actually used them so I am not here defending my style. Just the option.

[esper]

Sutekh wrote...

XX-Pyro wrote...

Those runes aren't overpowered though. They don't even make you that much more rich.

I was going to ask if anyone has an accurate idea of the actual difference. I've got playthroughs where I use them and some where I didn't and haven't noticed anything drastic. I ended up not using them at all anymore just because of that.

I think I earn 1 to 2 extra levels with all the +x-perience.

Gold I don't really know, but I think I can buy coldblooded a little faster in act 2. So 20-30 over the course of 2 acts, I would guess.

[esper]

addiction21 wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

It's not fun to feel like you're tieing your hands behind your back to enjoy the game. That's why the "just don't use it" type arguments don't work.

So instead of willfully tying your own hands to enjoy the game you want EVERYONE to have their hands tied so YOU can enjoy the game.

Its odd how one of the catchphrases for the BSN can be "more options more everything the more the better" with a little postscript that says "except the ones I do not like."

Wulfram wrote...

nightscrawl wrote...

You can just as easily say that about ANY feature someone doesn't like.

Any feature that gives a power boost and is defended by the stupid "just don't use it" argument, yes.

It's not my job as a player to decide that this feature is stupid and will hurt my game by using it.  It's the game designers job to realise that a feature is stupid and will hurt the game if used and therefore not include it.

There is no power boost and clearly they did not think it is stupid. Therefore you can accept its in game and use it or not as you wish.

This idea that the game needs to be balanced for all players of all types and skill levels is silly or is this just having it balanced to cater to your specific type and skills? Still just as silly.

Herr Uhl wrote...

Adding overpowered items is just plain bad game design, and it shouldn't be excused by "you don't have to use it".

As far as I am aware the overpowered weapons and such exist in their own DLC packs separate to the game. Not even the stuff I found in MoTA or Legacy were overpowered. Maybe end game they are slightly better then what was there but not breaking. Not really close to the DLC packed items.

If these type of runes are to be in DA3 I'd rather that option exists for those that want to use them instead of it being taken away for such trivial reasons.

By the way I cant think of anytime I ever actually used them so I am not here defending my style. Just the option.

Saying, you are just selfish is not a good argument for why a feature so continue to be there. You are just as selfish to demand the continued existence of a feature that ruins the experience of another gamer.

I agree with Wulfram, the feature should not be included in the main game if it breaks the game.
Gimping my self purposely is not funny when I find it necessary to enjoy the game. I loathed the gift spam  in da:o, no matter if I used it or not. Its mere existence made the game less fun.

To take the the nightmare vs. casual example: If I have to play on nightmare (or whatever the highest difficulty is) to be challenged reasonably then the game is not designed well.

I should be reasonable challenged on normal.

[addiction21]

Casual and normal difficulty levels are to easy for me. The mere existence ruins the game for me. They should be removed and everyone else should be forced to play the game how I prefer. Remove these options because I am to tempted to use them.
Health potions break the game for me. I do not need them on X difficulty. They should be removed.

There have been and as far as I can see will always be some people that find something unbalanced for them. Others will find it is needed. Until someone can suggest some way that the game can be balanced on all difficulty levels between all the class combos, skills, builds, and items. For every possible type of player of all skill levels I see no reason to remove something that is optional that leaves it possible for each player to tailor the gameplay to their preferences.

Edit: Yes toggles for everything imaginable but that's just not going to happen and its just as easy to apply the "existence of these options is game breaking for me"

Modifié par addiction21, 19 janvier 2013 - 09:12 .

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

I'd also like to point out that that ring in Origins that gives you extra experience is (apparently) 100% useless because it rounds fractional experience points down.

[Renmiri1]

esper wrote...

Saying, you are just selfish is not a good argument for why a feature so continue to be there. You are just as selfish to demand the continued existence of a feature that ruins the experience of another gamer.

I agree with Wulfram, the feature should not be included in the main game if it breaks the game.
Gimping my self purposely is not funny when I find it necessary to enjoy the game. I loathed the gift spam  in da:o, no matter if I used it or not. Its mere existence made the game less fun.

To take the the nightmare vs. casual example: If I have to play on nightmare (or whatever the highest difficulty is) to be challenged reasonably then the game is not designed well.

I should be reasonable challenged on normal.

We are not demanding, it is there in game already. You guys are the ones that have no self control and want mommy to take away the cake lest you eat it.

I don't agree on having my game gimped because you don't have discipline to play a game according TO YOUR OWN TASTE. Is not my fault, nor the developer's fault you fail at your own standards of game playing. 

[Sutekh]

esper wrote...

To take the the nightmare vs. casual example: If I have to play on nightmare (or whatever the highest difficulty is) to be challenged reasonably then the game is not designed well.

I should be reasonable challenged on normal.

First, thanks for the reply 

The problem I have is a very simple one, really: What's challenging for [general] you might not be for me [yeah, general "me" too]. Maybe the game is perfectly challenging and balanced for me on normal. The solution would be to ask for an even higher difficulty (I've seen it, btw, can't remember which games, though), and that would be fine because that would be adding something. Removing is different; if that particular optional thing  you ask to be removed is something that fits my gameplay, then what?

On one hand, you've got something that you deem game-breaking, but are perfectly able not to use. It's not mandatory in any way. It might be game-breaking for you just to know it's there, but I might love it. So, in a perfect world, I use it in my game, you don't in yours, and all is well.

On the other hand, if you remove it, you have your better experience, without temptation or anything, but there's no way I can have mine anymore; while you can ignore something that exists, I can't make true something that doesn't, and it sounds very much like "my way or the highway".

Honestly, there are some optional features in many games that I find absolutely atrocious, game-breaking and kicking down the balance to the Ninth Circle of Hell and beyond, but it wouldn't cross my mind to ask for their removal. They don't break my game because I ignore them, and that's all that matters to me.

The only exception to that would be if the game was actually designed with the assumption that this feature will always be used. In this case, it ceases to really be optional, since you have to use it to play the game as intended by its designers (whatever that means).

Plus, for runes and xp boost, this is not the case, IMO. As I said, I didn't notice that much difference, and my gameplay experience was roughly the same whether I used them or not. I do remember buying that fabulous cold wand that's only available in Act II without using RoF.

Modifié par Sutekh, 19 janvier 2013 - 09:49 .

[Dabrikishaw]

Renmiri1 wrote...

Oh so you want it removed for all gamers because you don't have self control enough to not use something you don't like. Gotcha

Good luck getting the developers change stuff based on what you yourself can't find the strength to avoid

[Swagger7]

Wulfram wrote...

It's not fun to feel like you're tieing your hands behind your back to enjoy the game. That's why the "just don't use it" type arguments don't work.

It's also no fun to have my options limited because someone else doesn't care for them.

[Swagger7]

Renmiri1 wrote...


We are not demanding, it is there in game already. You guys are the ones that have no self control and want mommy to take away the cake lest you eat it.

I don't agree on having my game gimped because you don't have discipline to play a game according TO YOUR OWN TASTE. Is not my fault, nor the developer's fault you fail at your own standards of game playing. 

This ^

[BlueMagitek]

Gamebreaking things have been removed from the game (Arcane Warrior, for example), but it was given a replacement (Force Mage). You don't offer a replacement and to be honest, for the most part their isn't a problem with gold in game. You aren't going to have every top tier item, but you won't need every single one anyway.

[Wulfram]

I don't really see how force mage is a replacement for arcane warrior. They do totally different things.

[addiction21]

Wulfram wrote...

I don't really see how force mage is a replacement for arcane warrior. They do totally different things.

Both can be considered overpowered by different people so lets just cut them. Lets not leave that option open for anyone that for any reason would use them.
I find it overpowered so no one else should be allowed to use it.